RTPI runs into trouble ..

the boss of me

From todays evening Herald ;

By Claire Murphy
Monday March 14 2011

DUBLIN'S real-time bus signs may have to be redesigned after outraged Gaeilgeoiri complained that the signs were not in Irish.

The National Transport Authority (NTA) is investigating the lettering on the signs under the Official Languages Act which requires public bodies to put Irish language text first on signage.

REGULATIONS

Communications manager at the Irish Language Commissioner, Damhnait Ui Mhaolduin confirmed the office was obliged to investigate.

"There are regulations with regard to the use of Irish on the signage of public bodies," he said. It's anticipated that the changes could add more to the cost of the final project as well as delay the launch date.

The NTA had hoped that the electronic signs would be in place in Dublin by the end of the year and expanded to Cork, Limerick, Galway and Waterford by next year.

A total of 450 are being rolled out across Dublin this month.

The signs are already in place on the Luas light-rail system and DART which enable commuters to get up-to-the-minute bus times from a website or by text.

Tragedy

Is Gaeilgeoiri Irish for pretentious interfering money and time wasting idiot?

Been waiting for RTPI for so fricken long and now it's being delayed because of people who don't and won't even use it.

BenShermin

As somebody who's fond of the Irish language myself, all I can say is :rolleyes:.

Run_to_da_hills

Proper order, there was also a recent attempt to belittle our national tongue on railway platforms.

Stonewolf

Dead language is dead, leave it alone.

BenShermin

When I see how easy the bilingual signage and info is done in places like Wales and Brussels I just have to wonder.

The companies installing signage in this country never learn, Dublin Tourist signs, Iarnród Éireann, RTPI etc. and the Gaeilgeoiri never stop moaning. As a result the English speaking majority in the country never win:rolleyes:.

the boss of me

It's ludicrous that we're still playing lip-service to this crap in the 21st century. It's time to start banging heads together and get the system up and running before it becomes another e-voting machine fiasco.

Chris_5339762

I dont like having Irish on everything as it clutters it up and is really unnecessary.

BUT

I have to say that whoever designed these signs knew damn well they should have an Irish version on them and they probably knew damn well that someone would throw a strop about it.

LXFlyer

BenShermin wrote: »

When I see how easy the bilingual signage and info is done in places like Wales and Brussels I just have to wonder.

The companies installing signage in this country never learn, Dublin Tourist signs, Iarnród Éireann, RTPI etc. and the Gaeilgeoiri never stop moaning. As a result the English speaking majority in the country never win:rolleyes:.

Well having just been in Cardiff I can report the following:
1) All printed signage in stations and at bus stops is in Welsh and English
2) All pre-recorded announcements are in Welsh and English
3) All on-board displays on trains are in Welsh and English
3) All real time information displays are in English only

mrsdewinter

Meh. I think this is a media creation. Saw it in Metro this morning, and have a feeling that it boils down to a news reporter noticing the old Gaeilge is a bit lacking on the roadside displays, thinking, hmm, I bet that would drive the old gaeilgeoiri mad, and ringing somebody who's trying to justify their position in a state body.

L1011

*an* outraged Gaelgoir who then boasted about how he's doing it "because he can" on another forum here.

KD345

Surely this shouldn't take too long to remedy. Considering the displays only show the destination it should only take a day or two for someone to update each route with the Irish.

44 Enniskerry - Ath Na Sceiri

Cookie_Monster

FFS
:rolleyes:


Why is it absolutely nothing can be done in this country without some busy body or other getting involved just for the sake of it.


FYI: DB customers care about knowing when their bus will turn up and how long the wait and where its going, I doubt 99.9999999% of them give a monkies whether its in Irish too and would just rather the thing works.

Lets just stick in Polish on them, more Polish speakers here these days then Irish speakers

noelfirl

One would imagine as others have aluded to that this may be the same "outraged Gaeilgeoir":

That username is already in use. wrote: »

These digital signs are in English only and are not in compliance with the Official Languages Act.

An Coimisinéir Teanga is currently looking into this.

Even if the signs are on a test run or temporary, they still have to be in Irish, or bilingual.

I do hope that Dublin Bus aren't trying to contravene the regulations like Dublin City Council did with the Way-finding Scheme.

If Dublin Bus didn't tender for a fully bilingual system in the first place, they will now have to go back and spend even more money altering the system to cater for the Irish language.

The legislation is there, and if public bodies ignore it, the tax payer has to pay even more to bring these signs into compliance.

I wonder would it be possible for us to put in a counter notice to an Comisineir urging him/her, in light of current economic/spending priorities, as well as for the good of a vast majority of public transport users TO PISS OFF AND LET THE SYSTEM BE INTRODUCED AS IS, ASAP AND WITHOUT INTERFERENCE. Fat chance of it having any effect I suppose.

dazberry

I think it's time to change the official languages act...

feck off cup

D.

Cookie_Monster

dazberry wrote: »

I think it's time to change the official languages act...
.

not necessarily, just time to stop pandering to selfish fools who just want to waste taxpayers money on forcing an irrelevant language into people's daily lives as much as possible.

-Chris-

Just a note: there's probably not too much problem with being extremely frustrated at this systemic idiocy, but the thread should not degenerate into insults or personal criticism of a specific poster.

Attack the post, not the poster.

BenShermin

lxflyer wrote: »

Well having just been in Cardiff I can report the following:
1) All printed signage in stations and at bus stops is in Welsh and English
2) All pre-recorded announcements are in Welsh and English
3) All on-board displays on trains are in Welsh and English
3) All real time information displays are in English only

Fair enough it's about two years since I've been in Cardiff, and I never took any notice of the RTPI to be honest. I do recall waiting at a bus stop in Bangor a few months ago and seeing both Welsh and English on the RTPI at that stop.

foggy_lad

People should be sacked and charged with misappropriation of funds over this latest bout of criminal(in my opinion) incompetence.

Anyone who has even the remotest shred of intellect knows that all signs must be at least bi-lingual yet they threw away bags of cash paying for a system in English only.

AlekSmart

Originally Posted by That username is already in use. View Post
These digital signs are in English only and are not in compliance with the Official Languages Act.

An Coimisinéir Teanga is currently looking into this.

Even if the signs are on a test run or temporary, they still have to be in Irish, or bilingual.

I do hope that Dublin Bus aren't trying to contravene the regulations like Dublin City Council did with the Way-finding Scheme.

If Dublin Bus didn't tender for a fully bilingual system in the first place, they will now have to go back and spend even more money altering the system to cater for the Irish language.

The legislation is there, and if public bodies ignore it, the tax payer has to pay even more to bring these signs into compliance.

Thankfully the off-bus elements of the RTPI system were devolved to Dublin City Council to devise and administer.

Bus Atha Cliath have a long and proud tradition of catering for minority groupings of whom Gaelgeoiri make up but a small number.

It`s at times like this that the reality of where we are as a country begins to impact upon me.....totally fcuked and way upstream without a paddle,but by golly the oul canoe is full to the gills with people what knows their rights....:rolleyes:

dowlingm

BenShermin wrote: »

When I see how easy the bilingual signage and info is done in places like Wales and Brussels I just have to wonder.

Not that easily.

NuMarvel

I know that the digital displays at DART stations don't have bilingual signage, but is that also the case for LUAS stops and for train stations outside of Dublin?

etchyed

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Proper order, there was also a recent attempt to belittle our national tongue on railway platforms.

If you're referring to the lengthy thread about the platforms at Dún Laoghaire station, then you'll know that the Irish was removed in order to be corrected. If you're just joking, it's not funny.

LXFlyer

NuMarvel wrote: »

I know that the digital displays at DART stations don't have bilingual signage, but is that also the case for LUAS stops and for train stations outside of Dublin?

None of the digital displays in any rail or bus station, LUAS stop, or indeed Dublin, Cork or Shannon Airports are bilingual.

All onboard displays on trains and trams are however in both languages.

NuMarvel

lxflyer wrote: »

None of the digital displays in any rail or bus station, LUAS stop, or indeed Dublin, Cork or Shannon Airports are bilingual.

All onboard displays on trains and trams are however in both languages.

That's what I thought, thanks. And nice addition about the airport displays!

So I wonder why a complaint was made about the Dublin Bus displays, which are still in the test phase, when no complaint has been made, or at least upheld, about other transport displays? Is it because the bus displays will be on public foootpaths, whereas all others are on private property (albeit private property owned by public bodies).

KD345

NuMarvel wrote: »

Is it because the bus displays will be on public foootpaths, whereas all others are on private property (albeit private property owned by public bodies).

Not the case for a lot of Luas stops, many of which are public footpaths.

BenShermin

dowlingm wrote: »

Not that easily.

monument

the boss of me wrote: »

From todays evening Herald ;

As covered in The Sunday Times.

Aard

Is Gaelgóir mé, ach ní húsáidim an teanga riamh chun taisteal timpeall na cathrach, nó fiú ag dul faoin tír. An mó duine nach n-úsáideann ach an Ghaeilge chun dul ó áit go háit? Náid? Sin a cheap mé. Tá fearg ar roinnt daoine mar nach labhraíonn formhór den tír an Ghaeilge, ach ansin déanann siad rudaí mar seo nach gcabhraíonn le spreagadh na teangan. Tá aithne agam ar roinnt díobh. Ceapann siad nach bhfuil ach slí amháin chun sprioc a bhaint amach, agus ní héisteann siad le smaoinimh eile. Dá stadfadh siad ar feadh nóiméid, thuigfeadh siad nach bhfuil an dualgas ar an stát go mbeadh Gaeilge ag tuilleadh, ach orthu féin.


too Irish; didn't read:
Not all of us Gaelgóirí are morons.

-Chris-

Aard wrote: »

Is Gaelgóir mé, ach ní húsáidim an teanga riamh chun taisteal timpeall na cathrach, nó fiú ag dul faoin tír. An mó duine nach n-úsáideann ach an Ghaeilge chun dul ó áit go háit? Náid? Sin a cheap mé. Tá fearg ar roinnt daoine mar nach labhraíonn formhór den tír an Ghaeilge, ach ansin déanann siad rudaí mar seo nach gcabhraíonn le spreagadh na teangan. Tá aithne agam ar roinnt díobh. Ceapann siad nach bhfuil ach slí amháin chun sprioc a bhaint amach, agus ní héisteann siad le smaoinimh eile. Dá stadfadh siad ar feadh nóiméid, thuigfeadh siad nach bhfuil an dualgas ar an stát go mbeadh Gaeilge ag tuilleadh, ach orthu féin.


too Irish; didn't read:
Not all of us Gaelgóirí are morons.

Please provide a full English translation of any non-English text.

BrianD

Could these signs alternate between showing all destinations in English and then all in Irish?

Is it law that a destination can be stated in either or english?

There is a requirement to have general signage in Irish but is it a requirement to have placenames in Irish?

Cathaoirleach

BrianD wrote: »

Could these signs alternate between showing all destinations in English and then all in Irish?

The entire display would flick from Irish to English every 4 or 5 seconds. That's more than enough time to read the 4 lines in either language. In fact, as people get used to the system, they will begin to learn the Irish placenames and won't need to wait those 4 seconds for the English translation.

BrianD wrote: »

Is it law that a destination can be stated in either or english?

The legislation requires that public signage is in Irish or bilingual - this includes placenames. Note: This does not apply to traffic signage.

BenShermin

BrianD wrote: »

Could these signs alternate between showing all destinations in English and then all in Irish?

Is it law that a destination can be stated in either or english?

There is a requirement to have general signage in Irish but is it a requirement to have placenames in Irish?

I assume they can alternate, all the Dublin Bus and Bus Éireann destination boards rotate between the two languages.

Aard

Aard wrote: »

Is Gaelgóir mé, ach ní húsáidim an teanga riamh chun taisteal timpeall na cathrach, nó fiú ag dul faoin tír. An mó duine nach n-úsáideann ach an Ghaeilge chun dul ó áit go háit? Náid? Sin a cheap mé. Tá fearg ar roinnt daoine mar nach labhraíonn formhór den tír an Ghaeilge, ach ansin déanann siad rudaí mar seo nach gcabhraíonn le spreagadh na teangan. Tá aithne agam ar roinnt díobh. Ceapann siad nach bhfuil ach slí amháin chun sprioc a bhaint amach, agus ní héisteann siad le smaoinimh eile. Dá stadfadh siad ar feadh nóiméid, thuigfeadh siad nach bhfuil an dualgas ar an stát go mbeadh Gaeilge ag tuilleadh, ach orthu féin.

I speak Irish, but I never use the language to go about the city, or down the country. How many actually do? Zero? That's what I thought. Some are angry that most people don't speak Irish, but then they do stupid things like this that don't help the cause. I know some of them. They think there's only one way to achieve their aims, and they ignore other ideas. If they just stopped to think for a sec, they'd understand that it's not the State's responsibility to encourage Irish, but their own.


:cool:

AlekSmart

Aard wrote: »

I speak Irish, but I never use the language to go about the city, or down the country. How many actually do? Zero? That's what I thought. Some are angry that most people don't speak Irish, but then they do stupid things like this that don't help the cause. I know some of them. They think there's only one way to achieve their aims, and they ignore other ideas. If they just stopped to think for a sec, they'd understand that it's not the State's responsibility to encourage Irish, but their own.


:cool:

Absolutely the most RIGHT-ON sensible post i`ve read on the entire issue of our National-Tongue.

Perhaps unwittingly Aard underlines that sometimes fatal flaw in our national phsyche..the almost total aversion to the principle of responsibility of any kind !!

Well said Sir/Madam

n97 mini

-Chris- wrote: »

Please provide a full English translation of any non-English text.

Use Google Translate. All citizens are entitled to use either language.

L1011

n97 mini wrote: »

Use Google Translate. All citizens are entitled to use either language.

Not by the forum charter here, and Chris is a moderator.

-Chris-

n97 mini wrote: »

Use Google Translate. All citizens are entitled to use either language.

a) I tried Google Translate at the time and it gave me this:

The I Gaelgóir, but not the language húsáidim ever to travel around the city, or even taking the country. How many people do not use the language but to go from place to place? Zero? I thought so. Some people are angry because most of the country do not speak the language, but then they make things like this that helps to stimulate the language. I know some of them. They think there is only one way to target, and they héisteann no other thought. If they would cease for a minute, they would understand that the onus on the Irish state would have more, but themselves.

Is that adequately clear, especially for someone who's native language isn't English (I'm thinking of, for example, a Polish person who's posting on boards)? It's debatable and therefore Google Translate isn't a valid option.

b) It's a site-wide requirement that's been debated to death, and won't be resurrected here. I'm implementing that requirement and expect everyone to abide by it (and am grateful to Aard for translating without any issues).

It's an existing rule, not open for debate. Please move on.

Cathaoirleach

Yep, totally agree. Always give a translation.

n97 mini

-Chris- wrote: »

a) I tried Google Translate at the time and it gave me this:

Fair enough, there are a few mistakes in the OP's post that Google is tripping up on. Google Translate normally does a very good job.

MYOB wrote:

Not by the forum charter here

This forum's charter does not specify English only. Maybe it should?

While I don't doubt Chris that is says it somewhere, a quick search and I can't find it.

Aard

@n97 mini:
Are you *trying* to be ironic?

mickydoomsux

This thread is becoming typical of the gaeligoir attitude to just be awkward and pushy about the Irish language.

It's pretty much dead and gone, only a tiny amount of people actually use it. We should stop wasting tens of thousands on it to appease a vocal minority. If people cared about it they'd learn it themselves and speak it off their own initiative rather than having it rammed down their throats.

n97 mini

Aard wrote: »

@n97 mini:
Are you *trying* to be ironic?

Not at all. I didn't realise till Chris said it that boards.ie is English only.

-Chris-

n97 mini wrote: »

This forum's charter does not specify English only. Maybe it should?

While I don't doubt Chris that is says it somewhere, a quick search and I can't find it.

Charter updated. Move on.

Jaysoose

Bet the same person is outraged at the queens impending visit..time to move on methinks.

ScouseMouse

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

FFS
:rolleyes:


Why is it absolutely nothing can be done in this country without some busy body or other getting involved just for the sake of it.


FYI: DB customers care about knowing when their bus will turn up and how long the wait and where its going, I doubt 99.9999999% of them give a monkies whether its in Irish too and would just rather the thing works.

Lets just stick in Polish on them, more Polish speakers here these days then Irish speakers

I think hes right.

SeanW

Words fail me:

Cookie_Monster

superscouse wrote: »

I think hes right.

who me, or the complainant?

If you mean the original complainant, why does DB have to change when we've had the airport display boards in English only for decades without anyone being affected? OR the Luas or the DART displays? The complainant is only taking advantage of the publicity surrounding the launch of the system to cause problems and more expense, if they did truly care then the same complaint would have been made about the other systems years (decades) ago.

robd

Certain bus stop timetables (the round barrel shaped ones) are/were only in Irish. I discovered this to my dismay when trying to find where a bus went to last year in the City Centre. Now that's annoying. Just because you can speak Irish doesn't mean you know every place name in Irish. In fact it's largely a separate thing. Not to mention that Ireland has probably got a higher portion of non Irish born citizens than Gaelgóiri these days.

LXFlyer

robd wrote: »

Certain bus stop timetables (the round barrel shaped ones) are/were only in Irish. I discovered this to my dismay when trying to find where a bus went to last year in the City Centre. Now that's annoying. Just because you can speak Irish doesn't mean you know every place name in Irish. In fact it's largely a separate thing. Not to mention that Ireland has probably got a higher portion of non Irish born citizens than Gaelgóiri these days.

That was more by accident than design as the timetable leaflets were redesigned with English points at the side but not at the top. The only problem was that the person doing this never realised that the side points were not included on any of the street carousels and thereby accidentally removed all the English routing points as a result.

BrianD

Cathaoirleach wrote: »

The entire display would flick from Irish to English every 4 or 5 seconds. That's more than enough time to read the 4 lines in either language. In fact, as people get used to the system, they will begin to learn the Irish placenames and won't need to wait those 4 seconds for the English translation.



The legislation requires that public signage is in Irish or bilingual - this includes placenames. Note: This does not apply to traffic signage.

Would this not count as traffic signage? None of the VMS that I see on roads is bi-lingual.

Also is there a requirement for all the content to be in both languages?