Census Advice - which question is used to misrepresent the amount of Irish speakers?

Dannyboy83

Some of the questions on the census form are used to misrepresent the amount of Gaelic speakers in Ireland, that is, to massively overexagerrate the amount of people on this island who can speak Irish.
They are stated in a such a way as to confuse a person into answering affirmatively.

Which specific question(s) are these?


I consider this a political issue and related to the plans of the current government to reform Irish.
I hope that people will answer truthfully, as according to recent census figures, the amount of fluent Irish speakers is vastly over-exaggerated:
http://www.cso.ie/statistics/irishspeakerssince1861.htm


Update:
It is Question Number 14. on Page 4.

OhNoYouDidn't

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

Some of the questions on the census form are used to misrepresent the amount of Gaelic speakers in Ireland, that is, to massively overexagerrate the amount of people on this island who can speak Irish.
They are stated in a such a way as to confuse a person into answering affirmatively.

Which specific question(s) are these?

Hold up. You have decided that there is a bias in the questions.

Then to prove that bias, you then ask what the questions are?

Are you not doing this backwards?

Dannyboy83

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

Hold up. You have decided that there is a bias in the questions.

Then to prove that bias, you then ask what the questions are?

Are you not doing this backwards?

Sorry my fault for not explaining clearly, have updated original post.

In the census figures, you can see there is a blatant distortion of reality: 1,570,894 Irish speakers in 2002.

It is clear that some open ended question is being used to trick people.

e.g. Can you speak Irish?

mewso

Is it along the lines of? -

How good is your Irish? 1. Adequate, 2. Fluent.
With no "3. Dire" provided.

mewso

I'm guessing by the way. I can't remember exactly what it was. I suppose you need to leave it blank.

OhNoYouDidn't

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

Sorry my fault for not explaining clearly, have updated original post.

In the census figures, you can see there is a blatant distortion of reality: 1,570,894 Irish speakers in 2002.

It is clear that some open ended question is being used to trick people.

e.g. Can you speak Irish?

1.5m people, about a third of the population, SELF IDENTIFY as being able to 'speak Irish'. The other 2/3 don't

So it can't be that tricky if the majority managed to avoid the trap.

Dannyboy83

http://www.census.ie/The-Census-and-You/English.193.1.aspx#whatisusedfor

What is the Census used for?
The census is used to provide information on all of the people living in Ireland. This information is used by government, regional and local authorities, businesses, local communities and others to help with making decisions about future plans for education, healthcare, employment, transport and a range of other services. The information provided does not reveal any individual information. Click here for further information in English on the benefits of the census.

If people answered accurately, it could help to resolve a lot of the flagrant abuses of taxpayer's money and help to rebalance the influence of Irish Language Lobby, the Catholic Church, etc.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

OhNoYouDidn't

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

If people answered accurately, it could help to resolve a lot of the flagrant abuses of taxpayer's money and help to rebalance the influence of Irish Language Lobby, the Catholic Church, etc.

So we have gone from a skewed question to people deliberatly replying incorrectly? That was quick.

Dannyboy83

http://www.census.ie/The-Census-Form/The-Census-Form.107.1.aspx

Question 1 - What is your name?
Question 2 - Sex
Question 3 - What is your date of birth?
Question 4 – What is your relationship to Person 1?
Question 5 - What is your current marital status?
Question 6 - What is your place of birth?
Question 7 - Where do you usually live?
Question 8 - Where did you usually live one year ago?
Question 9 - Have you lived outside the Republic of Ireland for a continuous period of one year or more?
Question 10 - What is your Nationality?
Question 11 - What is your ethnic or cultural background?
Question 12 - What is your religion?
Question 13 - How many children have you given birth to?
Question 14 - Can you speak Irish?
Question 15 – Do you speak a language other than English or Irish at home?
Question 16 - Do you have any of the following long-lasting conditions or difficulties?
Question 17 - If 'Yes' to any of the categories specified in Question 16, do you have any difficulty in doing any of the following?
Question 18 – How is your health in general?
Question 19 - How do you usually travel to work, school or college?
Question 20 - What time do you usually leave home to go to work, school or college?
Question 21 – How long does your journey to work, school or college usually take?
Question 22 - Do you provide regular unpaid personal help for a friend or family member with a long-term illness, health problem or disability?
Question 23 - If you are aged under 15, go to Q34.
Question 24 - Have you ceased your full-time education?
Question 25 - What is the highest level of education/training (full-time or part-time) which you have completed to date?
Question 26 – What is the main field of study of the highest qualification you have completed to date?
Question 27 - How would you describe your present principal status?
Question 28 - If you are working, unemployed or retired, go to Q 29. If you are a student go to Q34.
Question 29 - Do (did) you work as an employee or are (were) you self-employed in your main job?
Question 30 - What is (was) your occupation in your main job?
Question 31 - If you are retired, go to Q35.
Question 32 - What is (was) the business of your employer at the place where you work(ed) in your main job?
Question 33 – If you are unemployed go to Q35.
Question 34 – What is the full name and address of your place of work, school or college?
Question 35 – Answer questions for the next person in the household.

It must be this one.
Looks pretty open ended to me anyway!!

OhNoYouDidn't

Permabear wrote: »

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But you could argue that about anything. How many people who will identify as Catholics go to mass every week etc?

But the substantive, is that with the choices listed above, 1.5m people use the language.

Dannyboy83

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

So we have gone from a skewed question to people deliberatly replying incorrectly? That was quick.

Who said people were deliberately replying incorrectly?
My point is that people are being misled by the question.

e.g.
What is your Religion?
You answer, Roman Catholic, because that is how you were baptised.

Now you are counted as one of the flock, even tho you may not have attended mass in 20 years etc.

KeithAFC

The one here i have in N.I

Question 21

Can you understand, Speak, read or write Irish or Ulster - Scots

OhNoYouDidn't

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

It must be this one.
Looks pretty open ended to me anyway!!

You have listed the questions, but not the answers. It isn't yes or no.

Dannyboy83

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

You have listed the questions, but not the answers. It isn't yes or no.

The answers provided are "Yes" or "No"

http://www.census.ie/_uploads/documents/English_Household_form_with_do_not_complete_stamp_-_2011.pdf

See Q14.

OhNoYouDidn't

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

The answers provided are "Yes" or "No"

http://www.census.ie/_uploads/documents/English_Household_form_with_do_not_complete_stamp_-_2011.pdf

See Q14.

Mother of God.

Part 2. "If yes..."

You are taking the piss now.

Riskymove

its followed by an 'If yes, then' sub section

obviously the overall figures should be produced to reflect how many 'yes' are in each section

http://www.census.ie/The-Census-Form/Each-question-in-detail.109.1.aspx

Permabear

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Riskymove

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

its a joke that they run with the 1.6m figure though as over 400,000 say they never use it etc

the 1.6m figure is used tod esignate gaeltachts, grant funding, support decisions on irish translations etc even though they know its a lie

Permabear

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southsiderosie

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

But you could argue that about anything. How many people who will identify as Catholics go to mass every week etc?

But the substantive, is that with the choices listed above, 1.5m people use the language.

Actually questions about church attendance highlight the problem with asking about the Irish language: there is a huge issue in surveys like this of response bias - people tend to over-report doing or liking things that are seen as socially acceptable or desirable such as going to church. I would not be surprised if the same were true with Irish language, and the "If yes..." breakdown of actual language usage that Permabear highlighted above suggests that this is indeed the case.

HivemindXX

The census form is of course available in both Irish and English. Are the stats for how many people choose one or the other available?

OhNoYouDidn't

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

We actually agree with each other on this. The OP made a bone headed statement that the census was skewed in favour of Irish speakers on the incorrect assumption it was a yes, no answer. But drill it down, and you get a great deal of information about the aspirational level of Irish speaking, the attempted level of Irish speaking and the actual level of Irish speaking.

Whatever your opinion on state support for the language, and I have no doubt we differ, the OP is fundamentally wrong.

Permabear

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cyclopath2001

HivemindXX wrote: »

The census form is of course available in both Irish and English. Are the stats for how many people choose one or the other available?

I have never been able to find this out, but the matter is further obscured because many Irish speakers prefer to use the English verson of the census form.

It would have been better of the questions about ability in Irish, were put in the Irish language, even on the English version.

Dannyboy83

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

We actually agree with each other on this. The OP made a bone headed statement that the census was skewed in favour of Irish speakers on the incorrect assumption it was a yes, no answer. But drill it down, and you get a great deal of information about the aspirational level of Irish speaking, the attempted level of Irish speaking and the actual level of Irish speaking.

Whatever your opinion on state support for the language, and I have no doubt we differ, the OP is fundamentally wrong.

Care to explain why?
You stated that the answers were not Yes/No.
In fact, Yes/No are the only answers provided, which you are choosing to ignore :rolleyes:
There is a subquestion which then deals with the FREQUENCY of speaking, not with the ABILITY.
Therefore, The question "Can you speak Irish?" is redundant.
Do you understand now?

Language skills are probably one of the best examples of something which are not and cannot be binary.

e.g.
Can I speak Polish? Yes
Can I speak it fluently? Basic, Conversational [TICK], Fluent
How often do I speak it? Weekly

Examine any job spec. where a language is a pre-requisite, and I guarantee it will stipulate a pre-requisite level of ability.

Even worse, I deeply question the ability of someone to speak a language, when they confess themselves that they NEVER speak it,:rolleyes:
It appears that either half a million Irish people are linguistically gifted, where they retain fluency while never practicing the language (impossible in my opinion unless you are a native speaker) or else, people are being misled by the question.

Now, If you can look beyond me "boneheadedness" as you rashly put it, you might start to see where the problem lies.

When the census is returned, and many hundreds of thousands of people are misled into answering this question, it will misrepresent the truth and give the Irish Language Lobby the ability to make all kind of nonsensical arguments.
Gerrymandering FTW!

And as for language "aspirations"...........erm, it's a census - just ask:
"Do you aspire to speak Irish?" Yes/No

snickerpuss

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

I have never been able to find this out, but the matter is further obscured because many Irish speakers prefer to use the English verson of the census form.

And what about households where some people speak Irish and some don't? I'm fluent but my parents weren't. They would obviously have asked for the English form. I now live with my boyfriend but he wouldn't be able to understand an Irish form while I can obviously understand both. Terrible how us Gaeilgeoirs won't just live with only other Gaeilgeoirs.

cyclopath2001

snickerpuss wrote: »

And what about households where some people speak Irish and some don't? I'm fluent but my parents weren't. They would obviously have asked for the English form. I now live with my boyfriend but he wouldn't be able to understand an Irish form while I can obviously understand both. Terrible how us Gaeilgeoirs won't just live with only other Gaeilgeoirs.

Simple: on the English version of the form, the questions for Irish speakers to be in Irish.

snickerpuss

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

Simple: on the English version of the form, the questions for Irish speakers to be in Irish.

Wouldn't bother me. I just felt the previous poster was implying that Irish speakers using English forms was somehow suspicious or an attempt to distort figures. Anyway, if the question was in Irish I don't think it would be hard to realise it was the do you speak irish question so if people really wanted to misrepresent that it would still be easy.

cyclopath2001

snickerpuss wrote: »

Wouldn't bother me. I just felt the previous poster was implying that Irish speakers using English forms was somehow suspicious or an attempt to distort figures. Anyway, if the question was in Irish I don't think it would be hard to realise it was the do you speak irish question so if people really wanted to misrepresent that it would still be easy.

it's not really a question of people deliberately providing incorrect information, rather, it's a case of them overestimating their proficiency in Irish. If the follow-on questions were in Irish, then we'd get a more accurate answer.

nesf

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

it's not really a question of people deliberately providing incorrect information, rather, it's a case of them overestimating their proficiency in Irish. If the follow-on questions were in Irish, then we'd get a more accurate answer.

It's perfectly possible for someone to have decent conversational Irish yet lack the more technical Irish needed for something like a Census form. Or for them to have decent spoken Irish but poor written Irish skills. Proficiency in a language is a really complicated thing.

E.g. my Irish wouldn't be particularly good in many respects, but I use it every day speaking to my children. I listen to native speakers speaking Irish every day and understand most to all of what they're saying (I just can't respond correctly to it). How exactly should I answer the census form?

cyclopath2001

nesf wrote:

; Proficiency in a language is a really complicated ....How exactly should I answer the census form?

Or, what value should we attach to the answers?

Permabear

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snickerpuss

But then how can you decide what someone's proficiency is bar appending a test to the back of the census or conducting an oral at the door? People can lie about any part of the census, what can you do? The language proficiency table above is quite a lot of writing and the Irish question might take up a whole page. Should we be making all parts of the census so detailed and complicated to prevent incorrect answers?

Permabear

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nesf

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

Aye, I'd much prefer to see a question like "How proficient are you in Irish?" rather than "Do you speak Irish?". The former is a middling answer for me but the latter is a simple Yes.

cyclopath2001

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

This has been done from time to time, but not by independent bodies.

One way to measure Irish literacy would be to count the readership of full-price Irish language newspapers and books.

OhNoYouDidn't

One of the strengths and weaknesses of a census is people self identify with things that may or may not be realistic.

The Irish language, religion and marital status are where people might give aspirational answers rather than realistic ones. But that is life.

Lame Lantern

Accepting for the moment that the self-reporting of Irish language proficiency is indeed grossly distorted to favour speakership (something I don't accept on the scale that posters in this thread suggest) can we not consider that at the very least such a massive positive response to the question is a broad vote of confidence in favour of continued state support of the language?

cyclopath2001

Lame Lantern wrote: »

such a massive positive response to the question is a broad vote of confidence in favour of continued state support of the language?

That is stretching it. The cost of Irish language support policies is unknown. For people to make an informed consent, they'd need to know what it costs them. Even then, it does not justify imposing Irish on people who do not wish to speak it.

may e people shoul be asked to rank priorities such as health care, low taxes and reinstating Irish as the common tongue of Ireland?

Madam

Good God - only in Ireland do you find people begrudging money spent on keeping their native language:mad: You never hear of the Bretons the Spanish(basque), the Welsh or the Scots bemoaning the fact that they all have their own languages written alongside the predominate language on signage or the cost of learning it in schools! Why such dislike of the Irish language - is it an urban thing I wonder

cyclopath2001

Madam wrote: »

Good God - only in Ireland do you find people begrudging money spent on keeping their native language:mad:

For most of us, it is a matter of fact that English is our native language. Some people don't accept this.

Madam wrote: »

Why such dislike of the Irish language - is it an urban thing I wonder

Irish is liked in a 'mom and apple pie' sort of way. But, we have to be decide how much is reasonable to spend on Irish...you know, like, value for money?

snickerpuss

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

This has been done from time to time, but not by independent bodies.

One way to measure Irish literacy would be to count the readership of full-price Irish language newspapers and books.

Well I'm not sure that would be very accurate. It would be skewed towards Gaeltacht areas. I'm fluent, can read and write Irish, I have a degree in it. But I don't read Foinse (Irish lang newspaper) which is now only offered with the Indo. I also have little interest in Irish lang novels but then I don't read a lot of novels anyway. This does not imply that I have poor literacy in Irish, just that Irish language publications don't cater for me or for non-Gaeltacht areas generally in my opinion. There is a very small selection of Irish language material available. Plus I know plenty of literate English speakers who don't read newspapers and novels. What does that imply? It's not an easy question.

murphaph

Madam wrote: »

Why such dislike of the Irish language - is it an urban thing I wonder

Probably not as most of the new Caeilscoileanna (sp?) are in urban areas. Roadsigns are just the tip of the iceberg though. The real cost is the constant translation of every official document into Irish, many of which have never been purchased in their Irish language forms! (Think ALL local area plans, local development plans, environmental impact statements etc. etc. If it was just the documents of the houses of the Oireachtais it would be somewhat sane, but it's gotten totally out of hand now)

Dannyboy83

snickerpuss wrote: »

Well I'm not sure that would be very accurate. It would be skewed towards Gaeltacht areas. I'm fluent, can read and write Irish, I have a degree in it. But I don't read Foinse (Irish lang newspaper) which is now only offered with the Indo. I also have little interest in Irish lang novels but then I don't read a lot of novels anyway. This does not imply that I have poor literacy in Irish, just that Irish language publications don't cater for me or for non-Gaeltacht areas generally in my opinion. There is a very small selection of Irish language material available. Plus I know plenty of literate English speakers who don't read newspapers and novels. What does that imply? It's not an easy question.

Have to say, you do make some good points above.

Just out of interest, assuming you read any of these documents which we have translated into Irish, which murphaph referred to - would you deliberately read the Irish as opposed to the English?

snickerpuss

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

Have to say, you do make some good points above.

Just out of interest, assuming you read any of these documents which we have translated into Irish, which murphaph referred to - would you deliberately read the Irish as opposed to the English?

No, why would I? English is my primary language and those documents are complicated enough as it is! I see no need to translate most policy documents or otherwise into Irish. I would much rather the goverment spent money changing the curriculum to teach spoken and basic written Irish and leave the literature and poetry to people like me who are mad enough to want to do it in college.

Speaking Irish doesn't define me, it's just I can do. Don't ever remember not being able to. We,re not all Gaeilge 'facists' and 'nazis' or any other ridiculous words that are appended so frequently to the word Gaeilge. I can't personally prevent the language dying out, I would just love the goverment to get real about it and focus on the important issues within the language like teaching it properly. Bah!

So no, most of the other Irish speakers I know would also just fill forms in/read documents in English. That's no slight on Irish because English being our primary language doesn't negate our fluency and proficiency in Irish.

cyclopath2001

snickerpuss wrote: »

So no, most of the other Irish speakers I know would also just fill forms in/read documents in English. That's no slight on Irish because English being our primary language doesn't negate our fluency and proficiency in Irish.

From the Evening Herald:

DUBLIN'S real-time bus signs may have to be redesigned after outraged Gaeilgeoiri complained that the signs were not in Irish.

Its not just reports and forms that must be in Irish, but all public services must be made available in Irish. The Official Languages Act has heavy penalties for those who do not comply.

cyclopath2001

snickerpuss wrote: »

So no, most of the other Irish speakers I know would also just fill forms in/read documents in English. That's no slight on Irish because English being our primary language doesn't negate our fluency and proficiency in Irish.

From the Evening Herald:

DUBLIN'S real-time bus signs may have to be redesigned after outraged Gaeilgeoiri complained that the signs were not in Irish.

Its not just reports and forms that must be in Irish, but all public services must be made available in Irish. The Official Languages Act has heavy penalties for those who do not comply.

snickerpuss

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

From the Evening Herald:
Its not just reports and forms that must be in Irish, but all public services must be made available in Irish. The Official Languages Act has heavy penalties for those who do not comply.

Em, yes I know. I wasn't going to list every single thing that must be in Irish. I was answering another poster's question about forms. Why did you post that exactly?

JBnaglfar

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

In the census figures, you can see there is a blatant distortion of reality: 1,570,894 Irish speakers in 2002.

It is clear that some open ended question is being used to trick people.

e.g. Can you speak Irish?

While I share your scepticism about the numbers, in a survey in the news today almost half of the respondents claimed to be able to speak Irish fluently.

Are there actually this many Irish speakers in the country, or is it a case of overrepresentation? Are people saying that they can because they want to be seen as able to speak the language, kind of like the Shy Tory Factor.

Dannyboy83

JBnaglfar wrote: »

While I share your scepticism about the numbers, in a survey in the news today almost half of the respondents claimed to be able to speak Irish fluently.

Are there actually this many Irish speakers in the country, or is it a case of overrepresentation? Are people saying that they can because they want to be seen as able to speak the language, kind of like the Shy Tory Factor.

My guess:
A) Survey funded by the Irish Language Lobby, so the independent research company know what result to 'look for'
Small sample size used, in a gaelteacht area.

In the thread, "The Status of Irish", it was actually quite amusing how many surveys Cyclopath2001 was able to show were funded by the ILL, despite the pro-compulsion group claiming they were independent studies.


Edit:
Just saw there:
Some 47% of the 1,000 people surveyed, from gaelteachts in;) each of the four provinces, by research company iReach for lastminute.com, said they were able to speak the Irish language.

Looks like a marketing trick.