Joan Burton's cabinet post (victim of sexism or not?)

CDfm

I gotta admit , I dont like Joan Burton and find her shrill.

So when I read this in the Irish Times about Eamonn Gilmore being sexist

irishtimes.com - Last Updated: Thursday, March 10, 2011, 13:10Quinn defends Gilmore decision




AOIFE CARR
Minister for Education Ruairí Quinn insisted Labour leader Eamon Gilmore had a difficult task in choosing the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform.
Mr Quinn defended the surprise decision to give Brendan Howlin the job rather than Joan Burton, who was widely tipped to get a senior finance portfolio. Instead, Taoiseach Enda Kenny named her as Minister for Social Protection.
There was some shock at Ms Burton's exclusion last night, with one Labour colleague, speaking on the basis of anonymity, suggesting that there may be sexism at play.

Following on from this about Vincent Browne being sexist

Joan 'still welcome' on TV3 despite Vincent sexism jibe




Collins Photo Agency


www.AXAfinancial.ie




By Kevin Doyle, POLITICAL REPORTER

Monday January 31 2011

LABOUR'S Joan Burton is expected to be panellist on Vincent Browne's TV3 programme again despite allegations he verged on sexism.
The Dublin TD is understood to be surprised by the attention given to her remarks about the veteran broadcaster after they clashed last week.

I wonder.

To a TV journalist OK -he will run with the punches and he will, but to a party leader and cabinet colleague one would expect -wow that is something.

Is this spin or political banter or does she believe it.

I also wonder has she used the sexism tactic on people before as to be labelled misogynist or sexist is a fairly serious allegation nowadays.

She is a Chartered Accountant and Lecturer and those allegations if made in a firm or college could lead to all kinds of problems.

So what is she like

Sponge Bob

Victim of her own irrationality on Vincent Browne . Watch this trainwreck and tell me how she got into Cabinet at ALL

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NSnCj_ApI94

GSF

Every good multiple choice question should have option d - none of the above.

sollar

Victim of not being considered as good as brendan howlin for the job plain and simple.

CDfm

It is a fairly serious allegation that Eamonn Gilmore ( and by implication Enda Kenny are sexist).

And she is in a fairly influential position.

If the position of Party Leader came up it could be her ??

Permabear

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CDfm

So this lack of tact is a character flaw.

She trained as a chartered accountant - but what do we know of her career before politics.

What organisations is she affiliated to - womens groups , unions, what is her power base.

What professional expertise is she bringing with her ??

How do people rate her ability wise.

bijapos

It was her dire performance on Vincent Browne that sealed her fate I think. If there had been no GE I think she would have been quietly removed from the position in a reshuffle.

As regards Howlin I remember Pat Kenny on Frontline trying to get him to explain where they would save money, Howlin could only wave a bunch of papers and say "It's in here Pat". When asked to state an example he couldn't.

KylieWyley

I think that car crash of a performance on Vincent Brown single-handedly cost her the position.

Prior to that, she was in the forefront for all of Labour's pronouncements on economic policy and general debate.

After that, and for all of the election, she was kind of hidden away. Knowing that the election was always going to turn on the economy and considering she was the finance spokesperson, one would have to ask the question -> Damage limitation for Labour??

It's about substance and character, not gender.

gizmo555

It's a disgrace that this person, whoever it is, won't stand up and be counted and will only make the allegation on condition of anonymity. It's even worse that a supposedly reputable paper like the Irish Times will grant it and publish this kind of cowardly attack. You couldn't get an anonymous letter published in their letters page, so why should politicians be allowed this kind of freedom to make unattributed personal attacks?

As for the claim of sexism itself, there seems to be a class of people in Irish politics, Burton herself among them, to whom claims of sexism are an automatic reflex. For example, in the course of a radio debate during the election campaign, she claimed the cut in the minimum wage was sexist because women cleaners would be disproportionately affected. Even if she's right that most cleaners are women (and FWIW, I've worked in the past as one of an all-male team of contract cleaners), she apparently doesn't know that cleaners are covered by a legally binding JLC agreement which gives them a minimum of €9.50/hr and was unaffected by the minimum wage cut.

As has already been pointed out, she demonstrated in extreme fashion on VB an aggressive and gratuitously rude side to her personality which would be a disaster in the types of negotiation Howlin's new role will entail.

Permabear

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Permabear

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Donal Og O Baelach

Sponge Bob wrote: »

Victim of her own irrationality on Vincent Browne . Watch this trainwreck and tell me how she got into Cabinet at ALL

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NSnCj_ApI94

I think this is the answer.
Howlins new position requires negotiating skills - Joan Burton does not have those skills, (in my opinion).

donfers

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

since the richard keys/andy gray thing, the whole sexism debate is now very much in fashion and some machievellian females are taking advantage of how highly-charged and sensitized the issue has become...it's unfortunate that they are adopting these McCarthyite tactics as there will inevitably be a backlash to all of this and some people are going to end up looking very foolish and dishonest

CDfm

gizmo555 wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

It may have been herself
,

Permabear wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

I am not a RBB fan either.

Anyway - maybe there should be a sexism accusation watch on her.

I have no problem if it is genuine but it is very nasty if it is untrue.

Anyway, are there other incidents when she has done this,

This came up in the Journal.ie

On an aside

Female worker was told her pregnancy is ‘a condition, not a f***ing illness’

08/03/11, 2:48 pm 2,903 Views 17 Comments
Share 75 Tweet 30
File photo

Image: Frank de Kleine via Creative Commons

A WOMAN WHO works in customer service in Leinster was subjected to a torrent of abuse from a manager after she became pregnant, according to the UNITE trade union.
The incident happened within the last month and a formal complaint was made to UNITE which has released the story to highlight the level of abuse towards women in the workplace that it says is still deemed as acceptable by some Irish managers.
The trade union said it was dealing with more cases of abuse of women in the work place than ever before during the current economic climate and said that some managers were illegally using pregnancy to put pressure on employees.
In one incident the woman, who works in customer service and did not want to be identified, informed her manager that she was four months pregnant.
The women was upset when her manager became angry at the fact that she would need to take time off for scans as he normally visited the workplace regularly.
He told her that his business should not have to suffer because she was pregnant.
After the woman left to compose herself, she came back to find him in a more conciliatory mood and he gave her a list of dates that she could take off.
She said she would have to consult with her husband but that she would need the following Monday morning off for a doctor’s appointment.
At that point he became extremely angry and told her:

Christ! Now I will have to come down again. You have f**ked up my next week as well as this week. For god’s sake you have a condition, not a f**king illness.

The comments do not break any industrial relations laws but UNITE says it will keep the incident on file.

I heard this"a condition, not a f**king illness" last year , but, it was from a woman who works at a Senior Level in a Technical Role and she told me that she and another female colleague shocked a male colleague with the saying.

I checked and this has been doing the rounds as a saying for a few years in HR.

An Urban Myth dressed up as fact -me thinks.

[Jackass]

I wish we had more black TDs so we could find out who's a racist as soon as they're not appointed a senior minister position.

I absolutely can't stand these minority claims. There are not more female TDs because not enough ran and there isn't a substantial amount of quality candidates, the reason most of the cabinet is from Dublin is that that's where the most senior and strongest candidates come from, the reason Joan Burton got a hard time off Vincent Brown is because everyone does, not because she has a vagina, and having a penis isn't a requirement for the position of minsiter for Public Expenditure and Reform, and it was awarded to a very able politician and if I was leader of the Government, Joan Burton would be relegated to the back benches and would never feature in any shape or form in my plans, as she's a whinger and takes advantage of a minority claim. If she was black and 80 years old, she'd be saying it was racist and ageisim too...

Ugggh, hate people like that. You didn't get it, suck it up, stop looking for excuses beyond your own inadequacies.

If anybody ever makes a claim of racisim of sexisim, they better be right about that claim, because that card played faulsely once is enough to be blacklisted in my book.

CDfm

[Jackass] wrote: »

Ugggh, hate people like that. You didn't get it, suck it up, stop looking for excuses beyond your own inadequacies.

If anybody ever makes a claim of racisim of sexisim, they better be right about that claim, because that card played faulsely once is enough to be blacklisted in my book.

Do you think that it is in the public interest for us to know whether Minister Burton was the person who spoke to the Times and whether or not she thinks Gilmore & Kenny are sexist .

[Jackass]

Well, yes, I think whoever made the comment shouldn't fire a sniper bullet across the political forecourt and should not have the cowardice to hide behind anonymity and to come out and make this (very serious) allegation in the full front of the public, and give evidence and reasons for it, instead of assassinating someones character with no risk to yourself through your lack of any substance to the allegation, but no one knows your identity, so you get to throw the muck, not back it up and have no accountability.

Despicable.

Bullseye1

Wouldn't Enda and Eamon have to believe that Joan is in fact a woman for them to be considered sexist?

Such a silly claim by the feminist movement or is it just the media trying to undermine the government early in it's lifecycle.

eoinbn

Burton's problem isn't her sex, it's her party. FG got finance, which she was suited to, Labour got PS reform which she wasn't suited to. Getting the public sector unions to agree to real reform will take a lot of tact which is a quality that I don't believe she has.
Gilmore has made a very difficult call here, in doing what he believed was the best for the country, but of course he will be labelled a sexist for it.

SB-08

Even Vincent Browne is pissed off at Joan being shafted. He claimed that she had a huge understanding of the economy after nearly a decade as Finance SP and how along with Noonan, Bruton and Rabbitte had been one of the four people most expert in Opposition over the past few years so he didn't understand Howlin getting the job either.

Joan appears to have gone into hiding as a result. No comment since she was shafted - same goes for Gilmore. They will need to clear this up asap.

nesf

SB-08 wrote: »

Even Vincent Browne is pissed off at Joan being shafted. He claimed that she had a huge understanding of the economy after nearly a decade as Finance SP and how along with Noonan, Bruton and Rabbitte had been one of the four people most expert in Opposition over the past few years so he didn't understand Howlin getting the job either.

Joan appears to have gone into hiding as a result. No comment since she was shafted - same goes for Gilmore. They will need to clear this up asap.

Her knowledge of the economy is irrelevant to the role though. Pubic Sector reform isn't about economic knowledge but negotiation skills and contacts in the trade unions. It really isn't a finance spokesperson's automatic role at all.

Social Protection on the other hand is a very large spending department, key to Labour's traditional core value of social fairness and generally an important position in the cabinet. It's not like she was made Minister for the Arts or Children or something like that.

View

nesf wrote: »

Social Protection on the other hand is a very large spending department, key to Labour's traditional core value of social fairness and generally an important position in the cabinet.

Maybe Joan should take a public gung-ho "I'll take no sh&t from you shower of welfare spongers" attitude to her new role? Her Ministerial colleagues would have collective heart failure but a sizable segment of the voting public would back her forever after.

jank

I wonder if Alan Shatter is complaining he didnt get a bigger brief? :rolleyes:

CDfm

SB-08 wrote: »

Even Vincent Browne is pissed off at Joan being shafted. He claimed that she had a huge understanding of the economy after nearly a decade as Finance

he would know after running magill into the ground.:rolleyes:

Burton has no experience and neither has noonan etc -what have they run

Joan appears to have gone into hiding as a result. No comment since she was shafted - same goes for Gilmore. They will need to clear this up asap.

Is this going to be a pattern

metrovelvet

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

When you use language like 'histrionics' you give credence to the accusations of sexism.

johngalway

Sexism, it seems to me, some people want it to become to Ireland, what black guilt from slavery is to the USA. I would also take the view that Burton would not be a good negotiator and therefore a liability in Howlins current position.

I would say "was to the USA" however I very much doubt that's been rectified even with the election of Obama.

Permabear

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gizmo555

metrovelvet wrote: »

When you use language like 'histrionics' you give credence to the accusations of sexism.

Why?

Histrionic: -adjective & noun -adj. 1 of or concerning actors and acting. 2 (of behaviour) theatrical, dramatic. -n. 1. (in plural) a. insincere and dramatic behaviour designed to impress. b. threatricals; theatric art. 2. archaic an actor [Late Latin histrionicus, from Latin histrio -onis actor]

(Concise Oxford Dictionary, 8th ed.)

Seems to me a perfectly apt description of her extraordinary behaviour on Vincent Browne's programme. Nothing sexist about it. When you bandy about baseless accusations of sexism in this way you give credence to the view that some people automatically assume all criticism of women politicians is sexist.

Lyanna

Just to toss this in here - it's from the Irish Times today, and this quote is attributed:

The appointment of Frances Fitzgerald as a Minister is welcome, and it is important that we start taking the rights of children seriously. Asked if it wasn’t stereotypical, Ruairí Quinn said lamely that “women know more about children than men because they spend more time with them”.

I'm not saying Joan Burton is necessarily the victim of sexism, but with this kind of attitude being displayed it's definitely possible.

sensibleken

Aparantly the word from inside (an uncle is a long term member of the party) is that in addition to her being quite un popular within the party she nearly scuppered the negotiations. Howlin rescued the deal showing how much better he was at negotiation.

not sexism just her being crap

jmayo

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

Very true.

KylieWyley wrote: »

I think that car crash of a performance on Vincent Brown single-handedly cost her the position.

Prior to that, she was in the forefront for all of Labour's pronouncements on economic policy and general debate.

After that, and for all of the election, she was kind of hidden away. Knowing that the election was always going to turn on the economy and considering she was the finance spokesperson, one would have to ask the question -> Damage limitation for Labour??

It's about substance and character, not gender.

The thing was when she first burst on the scene years ago I saw her torn apart in an economic discussion, she just didn't appear to have a clue.
In fairness over the years she did improve and got to know her brief quiet well.
But she was also perfect for the Gilmore's Labour tactics of just hammering the government and neglecting to come up with real policies.
I think as the election date neared she appeared to start losing more and more composure.
That night on the Vincent Browne show she was really torn apart and she then resorted to the claim that he was sexist bully.
Bad move.
I think her standing within the party was shown when the likes of Rabitte dismissed that and just said that Browne was a bully to everyone pure and simple.
Did Gilmore come out to bat for her ?

As regards OP's question.
I think she was a victim of her own failings.

Permabear wrote: »

It seems that as soon as any woman in politics does not get what she wants or expects, accusations of sexism and bias are bandied around. During election returns weekend, RTÉ interviewed Richard Boyd Barrett after he had narrowly defeated Mary Hanafin and Ivana Bacik to win the final seat in the constituency. They immediately asked whether he felt guilty about winning a seat that would otherwise have gone to a woman. I'm no fan of Boyd Barrett, but that was completely uncalled for.

Even though I think he is a tool, that was a ridiculous quesiton to ask the guy.
Should he have withdrawn because God forbid he might beat a woman ?

With the reasoning about gender quotas and what not, I can't wait to see an elderly black female disabled hindu candidate.
They will be a shoe in for Taoiseach. :rolleyes:

Nodin

CDfm wrote: »

I gotta admit , I dont like Joan Burton and find her shrill.

So when I read this in the Irish Times about Eamonn Gilmore being sexist



Following on from this about Vincent Browne being sexist




I wonder.

To a TV journalist OK -he will run with the punches and he will, but to a party leader and cabinet colleague one would expect -wow that is something.

Is this spin or political banter or does she believe it.

I also wonder has she used the sexism tactic on people before as to be labelled misogynist or sexist is a fairly serious allegation nowadays.

She is a Chartered Accountant and Lecturer and those allegations if made in a firm or college could lead to all kinds of problems.

So what is she like

No idea what she's like, but she wasn't ditched because of her gender. She was in a most prominent position for nearly a decade - he hardly looked at a list and had a sudden outburst of misogyny at the last minute.

meglome

Personally it's gotten to the point when she comes on the TV I change the channel. I find her attitude, her voice and her manner horrible and I'm glad that she isn't in the cabinet. I'd be delighted if there were more women involved in politics, just not her.

Nodin

O, and don't forget
http://www.hairybaby.com/index.php?page=shop.product_details&flypage=shop.flypage4guys&product_id=1611&category_id=13&category_parent_id=1&manufacturer_id=0&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=26

Permabear

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Eliot Rosewater

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

There's also the argument to be made that female representatives volunteer themselves for such positions and policy areas. Surveys of female representatives and Dail committee compositions indicate that women do have a preference towards areas like Health, Education and Children as opposed to, say, Foreign Affairs. So it's not really a case of big bad men like Enda and Eamon forcing women to assume what could be seen as traditional roles: they choose those roles voluntarily.

efb

I think it's the media creating a problem to complain about. TBH I'd much rather have Howlin in the position that Burton, he seems much more level headed and a better person to have when it comes to negotiation

johngalway

meglome wrote: »

I'm glad that she isn't in the cabinet.

I hate to be the one who does it, but:

"She is now the Minister for Social Protection and party Deputy Leader."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joan_Burton

CDfm

Commentary in todays Indo - should she have had the most senior job on offer or what.

Sam Smyth: Gilmore's Hell is full of women scorned

But Mr Gilmore's and the Labour Party's popularity plummeted through the election campaign while Fine Gael and Mr Kenny went on to fall just short of an overall majority.
Labour had an historic election victory too, yet by last night Mr Gilmore was counting the cost of his choices for Cabinet. He has paid the price among one of the largest constituencies in the Labour Party and beyond -- women.
Letters were written to newspapers yesterday but more of the women addressed their anger directly to Eamon Gilmore. How could he be so cavalier as to appoint Brendan Howlin to a cabinet position which they believed Joan Burton had earned through her years as the party's finance spokesperson?
Ms Burton, his deputy leader, was said to be "devastated" when she learned just minutes before the announcement of her position as Minister for Social Protection. Although hers is the highest-spending office in Government, Ms Burton didn't even try to disguise her disappointment.
Passing her over as Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform, the most senior job on offer to Labour, was taken as a universal insult to women.
While Ms Burton was addressing her disappointment to Mr Gilmore, another high-achieving woman was not concealing her frustration.

The article puts it very well.

The skills it takes to win elections are different to what it takes to run a department. She is clever.

There is no doubt Joan Burton is clever and ambitious - leadership ambitious perhaps.

If you look at it the Union membership /labour stallworths in recent years have grown to 46% female membership whereas the leadership has been almost totally male.

So Joan Burton may have a point but the point may be that her leadership ambitions were twarted by the "Boys Club".

The secondary point is whether or not she has the skills for the job.

I was a big McCreavy fan and his speeches are nonsensical but he was brilliant as an accountant and very clever.

It was a huge loss when he went to Brussells.

If she was a guy what would she say ?

the late Judge Michael O'Leary , once Minister for Labour and Labour leader crossed the floor and joined FG.

It is easy to dismiss her and she has shown she will fight like an alleycat.

If I was FAS I would be scared as she has it all to prove - I would not dismiss her.

Dave!

God, they were talking about this on Newstalk a while ago too... absolutely ridiculous.

Howlin was a perfect choice for that portfolio, I don't see how, on merit, anyone can say that Burton would be a better person for negotiating with unions

Ivana Bacik is probably knawing her way through her lip at this moment.

Lyanna

Eliot Rosewater wrote: »

There's also the argument to be made that female representatives volunteer themselves for such positions and policy areas. Surveys of female representatives and Dail committee compositions indicate that women do have a preference towards areas like Health, Education and Children as opposed to, say, Foreign Affairs. So it's not really a case of big bad men like Enda and Eamon forcing women to assume what could be seen as traditional roles: they choose those roles voluntarily.

Could you produce these surveys? Also, women are not a monolith; even if women are more likely to choose these roles voluntarily, that's not true for all women - a prime example would be Joan Burton.

CDfm

Lyanna wrote: »

Could you produce these surveys? Also, women are not a monolith; even if women are more likely to choose these roles voluntarily, that's not true for all women - a prime example would be Joan Burton.

That is true.

Does anyone know what the relationships are between all 3.

How do they get on & are they friends.

Who backed who in leadership campaigns.

Even in guy situations the best man does not always get the job,

So are there other factors we should exclude first

jmayo

CDfm wrote: »

...
I was a big McCreavy fan and his speeches are nonsensical but he was brilliant as an accountant and very clever.

Ok wash your mouth out.
A lot of our banking mess was down to the way mccreavy liked his lax regulation.

CDfm wrote: »

It was a huge loss when he went to Brussells.

Well you are right only because he was replaced with the bigger tool from Offaly, so yes he was a loss in relative terms.
BTW I still reckon we would have had massive banking meltdown if he had stayed.
Granted the public finances might not have been in such bad shape.

CDfm wrote: »

If she was a guy what would she say ?

Tough sh** ?

Lyanna wrote: »

Could you produce these surveys? Also, women are not a monolith; even if women are more likely to choose these roles voluntarily, that's not true for all women - a prime example would be Joan Burton.

Well I can see how you might have a different view about numbers of women in politics seen as you give your location as Italy.
Granted the entry requirements for women into Irish politics is not quiet of the same criteria as it is in Italy or at least the one supposedly practiced by one major party in Italy.

If it was then most of our women politicans, burton and shorthall included, would not get a sniff at being a spokesperson, nevermind cabinet. :rolleyes:

CDfm

jmayo wrote: »

Ok wash your mouth out.
A lot of our banking mess was down to the way mccreavy liked his lax regulation.

The Central Bank was independent under McCreavy.

Anyway, he left in 2004.

You could make an argument for it. Garret Fitzgerald is his chief critic and his record as Taoiseach was bad. Was it he who called the Health Service Calcutta.

Who made changes after that,

Lyanna

jmayo wrote: »

Well I can see how you might have a different view about numbers of women in politics seen as you give your location as Italy.
Granted the entry requirements for women into Irish politics is not quiet of the same criteria as it is in Italy or at least the one supposedly practiced by one major party in Italy.

If it was then most of our women politicans, burton and shorthall included, would not get a sniff at being a spokesperson, nevermind cabinet.

What "different view" am I expressing? I know Italian politics are horrifically sexist; they are certainly more so than Irish politics, but it doesn't necessarily follow that Irish politics are not sexist at all. I really don't see how this is relevant to my point (which was that women are not all the same, and that Joan Burton is probably not an example of a woman who wanted a "caring" ministry).

CDfm

Lyanna wrote: »

Joan Burton is probably not an example of a woman who wanted a "caring" ministry).

In her current state of mind if she got Department of Defence she woild rename ut the ministry of war.

th3 s1aught3r

Her own performance on TV was pretty terrible most times
Claiming 'sexism' is only a lame excuse by women when they dont get what they want

RacingSilver

How's this for reasoning ?

The unions gave the Labour Party a big donation to fight the election, which
means that they might expect something in return.
The unions are as usual trying to protect their own and don't care who suffers as long as it's not them.
So it obviously scares them when there is to be a new department for Public Expenditure and Reform
because that puts them and their members in the firing line.

So how are they going to get around this one ?
I know, force Gilmore to make Brendan Howlin the minister. Shure, isn't he one of their own.
His father was secretary of the Irish Transport and General Workers' Union in Wexford for 40 years. His New Constituency Office is at Coolcotts, Wexford, in new SIPTU Building.
He'll look after them.

Am I completely off the wall here ?

Permabear

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kenco

Read the article in the IT this morning and then heard the 'debate' on Kilberd Newstalk. Utter, utter nonsense about sexism which if anything is doing a disservice to women.

Prior to the election it was felt that if Labour got an economic ministry it would go to Pat Rabitte. Burton was never the shoe in she is being made out to be.

It is quite possible that Burton and Rabitte both wanted the gig and then Gilmore thought best to give it to neither and instead put Howlin who if far more experienced than either of them the job. He is also - to the best of knowledge - not close to the Unions and therefore well placed for this role which is only going to involve cuts, cuts and more cuts.

It is also possible that FG wanted Howlin in the role as he had served with Noonan in cabinet and could work with him. This may have been a problem with Burton (nothing to do with here gender) and also critically Rabitte.

Burton can have no complaints here as she was at best only second choice for this Finance role. She is good at what she does and will do a good job in Welfare/Protection. I am glad she is keeping quiet as to get caught up in this utter nonsense would only add fuel to the fire.

Again nothing to do with sexism but being protrayed by certain elements of the media as such. Stop treating us as idiots