School starting age (4 or 5)

dubhthach

My young fella is going to be 2 at the end of May. I had consider waiting until he was 5 before sending him to school (Sept 2014). However given that he would be 4 years and 3 months in Sept 2013 should I consider starting him then?

On a 8 year primary and 5 year secondary (no transition year) he would be exactly 18 do the Leaving cert. Of course if transition year is compulsory this would result him been 18 for his LC year and sitting exam at age of 19 (2 weeks after birthday).

I had problems myself with speech when I was younger so I did 2years in preschool before starting school, so perhaps this is colouring my judgement. If he does start at 5 I was planning on sending him to a Naoínra for 2years, if a 4 it would be just 1 year in the Naoínara.

Any opinions would be appreciated.

seamus

Afaik, it depends on the child and how far along they are.

Starting at 4, he will be one of the younger ones in the class - most of them will turn 5 during the school year, but it'll be only by a few months so it shouldn't affect him. I was similarly one of youngest in my classes all the way through school and I can say that it was never an issue.

If he's already five going into school he will be one of the oldest and he would probably be on average about 6 months older than his classmates, which similarly may or may not be an issue.

The only major difference I can see is that if you start him at 4 and it turns out to be a little too early, he can always stay back a year, no harm done.

Your decision may also be made for you in the next two years as he makes friends and their parents decide when to put those kids into school

byhookorbycrook

seamus wrote: »

The only major difference I can see is that if you start him at 4 and it turns out to be a little too early, he can always stay back a year, no harm done.

Sorry, can't agree at all. The DES do not alllow children who are too young to stay back too easily. There is also the impact seeing his friends move on without him will have on him socially and from self-esteem.
Boys as a very general rule tend to be less socially mature and may struggle if sent to school too early. I think 5 is the perfect age.

lazygal

Send him at five. I think you'll regret it and its not fair to make him repeat a year. He'll be too young, some of the children could be a full year older than him.

E.T.

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

Sorry, can't agree at all. The DES do not alllow children who are too young to stay back too easily. There is also the impact seeing his friends move on without him will have on him socially and from self-esteem.
Boys as a very general rule tend to be less socially mature and may struggle if sent to school too early. I think 5 is the perfect age.

Couldn't agree more. I've been teaching infants for 10 years and at this stage my advice to parents is that (in general) starting at 5 will benefit their child in many ways. It's the social aspect of things that younger children find difficult, and it does hold them back educationally in the end.

It's the small things that younger children find difficult - fine motor skills, being able to use the toilet (and wipe) themselves, manage their lunch (you'd be amazed how many children can't) themselves etc. It all sounds silly until you've up to 30 kids in front of you, there just isn't time to get around to all of them to help with these things.

They'll be in school and work for the rest of their lives, don't send them too school too early!

IamStupid..Not

Send him at five, in my opinion!

dizzymom

My ds is 4 since beg of march and I have enrolled him for Sept for primary, I am still between two minds to send him as he will only be 4.6 yrs old. Most of my friends kept their kids till they were 5 and they all benefitted greatly. If I keep my ds tilll following year he will be 5.6 and then turning 6 in junior infants.
This s a subject a lot of pre school parents are talkin abt now and its a dilemma for late spring 2007 babies,
any opinions appreciated - my ds is quite sociable and talks very well.

Vodkat

Send him at 5. I was 17 doing my leaving cert and im now 21 and back repeating because I was immature doing it the first time, I didnt put any effort in and I didnt know what I wanted. Now I have a better concentration level and know exactly what I want to do next year!

Ayla

This topic comes up time & again. It was just recently discussed on the Parenting forum as well:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056214371

It really boils down to a personal decision...is your child genuinely ready for it socially, mentally & maturity-wise? Will s/he really love the school uniform/early mornings/bus trip/day-long rigorous schedule with a room full of peers/time away from family? Can your family afford having your child at home (or in childcare) for another year? Do you think your child is really ready, or are you sending him/her because of other reasons?

If the answer to those questions is no, not yet, then you have your answer.

Ayla

And another point -

I wouldn't think there's any point in choosing whether to start school at 4 or 5 based on whether the child will "fit in" come higher classes. Some 4-yr olds may ultimately mature faster, while some 5-yr olds might take longer. And once kids reach post-primary, there's a lot of age mixing based on who finishes straight off & who stays for transition year.

All I think any parent can do is decide for their particular child at the time when the child is approaching school-age. Are they ready for the grinds of school now? If not, keep them back. If the child seems like they are, then they really struggle once they start, then take them out & try again the following year. I think there's far too much pressure put on this initial decision, as though this is the make-or-break of whether a child will survive in school. :rolleyes:

Spidermany

My DS was 4 at the end of the April as we started him the following September. His playschool said in their opinion he was well able and ready for school, DH wanted him to start too so against my better judgement I agreed. I always regretted the fact during primary that I started him at 4 and didn't wait until he was 5- just from an maturity point of view.

He is now completing 1st year in secondary. Has never and TG will never struggle educationally, but suffered and continues to suffer big time emotionally. He was not ready to start secondary. He should be starting this September, and would probably be ready then.

The transition to secondary is such a difficult time that I wish more and more that we had waited.

DS has only ever struggled from a maturity point of view. Always a social animal, so never any problems there or as I already said educationally. I can advise strongly enough that you wait until your DS is 5.

byhookorbycrook

Ayla, can't agree when you say to start a child and then take them out if needs be. Apart from anything else, you may not get a place the 2nd yr and the impact on a child of taking them out of school should not be underestimated.

Karen23

My daughter was 4 in the February and I sent her to school in September , everyone in her class is in and around the same age. I wouldnt have waited another year and I'm glad I didnt because I can see the difference in her now compared to the class below her , she'd have been bored. She's in first class now and the senior infants seem much more babyish to her.

Ayla

I'm not a child psychologist, only a parent going with my gut here, but I really don't see how changing the game plan after a month or two will have long-lasting affects on a child. Yes, their peers may continue on while they'll feel left behind, but is it better to force a situation that isn't working?

I've heard a lot of comments on forums such as this that go basically like "I started at 4 and really struggled the whole way through," or "I started at 5 and was bored out of my skull through my entire education." Come'on folks - this type of blame-game drives me nuts.

As parents, we have to make the best decision we can for our children with the information and instinct we have. Sometimes we're right and sometimes we're not. But this does not mean that a wrong decision like starting school at 4 vs 5 has to scar a child for life! If a mistake was made, we're human, it happens. And if it does, it's better to backtrack & fight your kid's corner rather than force them into a situation they were really never suited for.

Spook_ie

Our son, now 12, has his birthday in February, so I sent him when he was 4.6, and imho there is no way we would have started him at 5.6 - however had his birthday fallen any time after the June we would have held him till the following year. Looking at him now, I am glad we sent him, he is more than ready for secondary school in September, which btw has a compulsory transition year, so he will be 18.4 doing his leaving cert.

Kenteach

Just as in later life, ignore the birth cert here for a second. I've seen 4 year olds take to school like ducks to water, in every way. And five year olds who struggled emotionally for the entire year. I've also seen the reverse. The age comparisons with the rest of the class are absolutely irrelevant, they'll have to use a variety of social skills to adapt to their classmates regardless of whether they are among the youngest or eldest of the class. As long as you are confident that your child is independent enough to use the toilet, eat a lunch, sit on a chair and communicate in any way with their peers, then where better than a Junior Infant classroom to continue their development?

Ayla

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

Sorry, can't agree at all. The DES do not alllow children who are too young to stay back too easily.

Sorry, missed this comment the first time around. Could you please back this comment up? Where would I read proof that the DES will resist the holding back of a child who was prematurely entrolled?


Legally speaking, the age to enter education in Ireland is 6. Not 4, not 5. Six. I think society here has jumped the gun getting kids into a formal education system from such a young age. And the way it's all set up now, everyone feels this pressure to get their kids in with their peers, regardless of whether their own child is ready for the situations they'll face in the classroom.

Our daugher is now 4 years & 5 months old, and we are/will be home schooling her this upcoming "school year." If we decide at some point in the future to place her in the traditional school setting, she will be tested & placed at the appropriate year for her educational maturity...not just her age. I say this here b/c this is an option every parent has. If they do not feel right having their 4 (or 5) year old attending school, they can home ed. Then the child can attend school (entering at the maturity-appropriate class) when they are 6 (i.e: the legal age to start school) and there won't be any skin off of anyone's backs.

Is does beggar questioning - why do most parents put their children in school at 4 or 5 when the law doesn't require it until 6? Has school subconciously turned into a method of free childcare?

dubhthach

Ayla wrote: »

Sorry, missed this comment the first time around. Could you please back this comment up? Where would I read proof that the DES will resist the holding back of a child who was prematurely entrolled?


Legally speaking, the age to enter education in Ireland is 6. Not 4, not 5. Six. I think society here has jumped the gun getting kids into a formal education system from such a young age. And the way it's all set up now, everyone feels this pressure to get their kids in with their peers, regardless of whether their own child is ready for the situations they'll face in the classroom.

Our daugher is now 4 years & 5 months old, and we are/will be home schooling her this upcoming "school year." If we decide at some point in the future to place her in the traditional school setting, she will be tested & placed at the appropriate year for her educational maturity...not just her age. I say this here b/c this is an option every parent has. If they do not feel right having their 4 (or 5) year old attending school, they can home ed. Then the child can attend school (entering at the maturity-appropriate class) when they are 6 (i.e: the legal age to start school) and there won't be any skin off of anyone's backs.

Is does beggar questioning - why do most parents put their children in school at 4 or 5 when the law doesn't require it until 6? Has school subconciously turned into a method of free childcare?

I think the age of 6 in the law reflects the station in the 1920's when most children finished schooling after primary. In which case 8 years of schooling would have you out at the age of 14. From which they would have gone into labour force. Most children didn't go to secondary school until it was made free in the mid-1960's.

Ayla

dubhthach wrote: »

I think the age of 6 in the law reflects the station in the 1920's when most children finished schooling after primary. In which case 8 years of schooling would have you out at the age of 14. From which they would have gone into labour force. Most children didn't go to secondary school until it was made free in the mid-1960's.

Although I take your point, this is irrelevant...the law is still the law.

byhookorbycrook

Primary Circular 32/03

2.1 The Primary School curriculum is designed as an eight year course, including a two year infant cycle followed by six years in standards from first to sixth....

Under the Department’s policy, children should only be allowed to repeat a year for educational reasons and in exceptional circumstances. An additional grade level should not operate through the retention of all or a substantial number of pupils at a grade level.

2.4 In such exceptional circumstances a Principal teacher, following consultation with the learning support teacher/resource teacher and class teacher and parent(s) may concludes that a pupil would benefit educationally by repeating a grade level. A record outlining the educational basis for the decision to retain a child should be kept for any pupil so retained. In addition, there should be a clear programme outlined for such a pupil that records precisely what new approach will be used for her/him and what its expected benefit will be. These records should be retained within the school and should be brought to the Inspector’s attention by the Principal when s/he visits the school. No pupil should repeat a grade more than once in a primary school.

.

Ayla

Ok, thanks for that. But nowhere on that does it claim that the DES will make it difficult to repeat/hold back a year if a child needs it. Of course, it will be necessary to examine why this is neccessary, and the educational level of the child will be assessed, but if it's in the best interest of the child then it will be done.

The whole point I've tried to make through my comments on this thread is that if a parent feels their child is ready (or they're feeling pressured keep their child with their peers), then they send the kid to school at 4 (regardless of the law). If the kid's not ready, wait until 5 (even then they'll be in school before the law requires it). And whether the kid starts at 4 or at 5, if they wind up not "making it" then repeat/hold back a year...I honestly don't think it'll emotionally or socially scar the child for life. It is logistically possible...you tell the school early enough that your child will be repeating (and you go through whatever beaurocratic hoops necessary) then there will be a place for your child in next year's class.

dubhthach

Ayla wrote: »

Although I take your point, this is irrelevant...the law is still the law.

The law was framed in the 1920's and hasn't been updated since. I'm not even sure if there was infants classes during this period. More then likely children didn't start school until 1st class when they were 6 and then finished formal education at 12 when they had to sit the "Primary Cert"

The relevancy of my point is that a law that hasn't been changed in 90 years might not reflect modern society. Just as the laws covering vagrancy which date from the 1840's obviously don't reflect the situation on the ground at the moment.

I originally started this thread to get some opinions regarding what age I should start my son in school. I was of course predisposed to starting him when he's 5 (as a May baby: 5 years 3 months), however I decided to seek opinion of other parents. Which I got and help confirm my original predisposition.

BostonB

I'd wait till 5. I don't see any advantage in sending them younger.

Ayla

dubhthach wrote: »

More then likely children didn't start school until 1st class when they were 6 ... The relevancy of my point is that a law that hasn't been changed in 90 years might not reflect modern society.

I completely take your points and honestly don't mean to be argumentative. All I think about when I hear/read people asking whether they should send their 4 or 5 year old into a formal school structure is, "what's the hurry?"

Yes, modern society has changed from what it was when the legislation was developed. But why has it changed so that we feel pressured to send our kids - who are still obstensively babies - into a formal system requiring daily uniforms, sitting at a desk & listening all day, and doing homework?

This is why I wonder if society has shifted so that junior & senior infant classes have really just become another form of childcare. The classroom setting & all of its requirements are hardly what 4 or 5 year old kids are naturally ready to be doing. Then parents wonder why their child finds themself struggling on a socal, emotional or educational level...? :rolleyes:

byhookorbycrook

Ayla, we have come up against that circular and "educational reasons" is translated as having a diagnosed specific learning difficulty in reality.

Ayla

Well, then what can I say?

I suppose it's better to let your child suffer though an educational system that you prematurely enrolled them in then fight for them against the DES. Go ahead, put them in school with their peers, regardless of whether or not they're ready, then when they struggle you surrender the situation & your child's happiness to what the DES decides is "right."

Nope, not me. My kids are the only thing I care about, and I will neither enroll them in a school setting nor allow them to continue unchecked if it's not in their best interest.

byhookorbycrook

I started at 3 and a half,school needed the numbers. Was totally immature for my Leaving,ended up repeating in a different school.

hatz7

Starting the child at 4 years old is grand.
Your child will do really well with your support. The support you provide is more important than the age you send the child to school.

When I hear of kids starting school at 5, I generally think that there is is something wrong with them.(yes I'm a terrible person, how do I live with myself...)

E.T.

hatz7 wrote: »

Starting the child at 4 years old is grand.
Your child will do really well with your support. The support you provide is more important than the age you send the child to school.

When I hear of kids starting school at 5, I generally think that there is is something wrong with them.(yes I'm a terrible person, how do I live with myself...)

About half the kids I teach start at 5, and school is so much easier for them in general. Starting the child at 4 years is grand if they have the social skills for it. I've taught plenty of 4 year olds who were well able for everything in school.

The problem is with the 4 year olds who are sent to school without being able to listen for more than 30 seconds, can't follow the most simple one-step instructions (eg take off your coat, take out your pencil case). The amount of extra time I have to spend with kids like this detracts from the amount of time I actually get to spend teaching the other kids. It's a bad sign when the other kids notice and comment on how immature (babyish in their words) another child is.

Newmummy1978

Hi there,

I was hoping you could help me as struggling at the moment to make a decision.
My daughter just turned 4 in May and will be 4 years 4 months in Sep. I was thinking of sending her in Sep 2014 but in most of the schools she will be one of the youngest and most will be 5 so either a few months older or a year older. The playschool teachers have told me she is fine to go to school and has very good social and communication skills but I'm worried about her mixing with kids that will be a good bit older than her as she goes up through the school classes or finishing primary or secondary school a year younger than everyone else
On the other hand she is a very active child and needs to be stimulated a lot so my concern with holding her off for the year would be she wouldn't be mentally or physically challenged enough and her behaviour may become a problem as she isn't tired or will be getting bored.
Please can you offer some guidance as I'm really confused what is best to do.
Not to mention on top of that don't know whether to go for catholic all girls or mixed school, multi denominational or educate together not sure what will be the best school to suit my girl.
I'm so stressed!!!!!