Could an ordinary person land an airliner?

Blisterman

It's an old movie cliche. Both pilots are incapacitated, so air traffic control guide a complete novice to land the plane.

Could this, or has this ever happened in real life?

hardCopy

Probably depends on the conditions, the ATC guide and the instincts of the volunteer.

A quick google shows a few instances of passengers with some kind of flight experience jumping in to land or assist the pilot but I didn't find any stories of a complete novice.

One story from Shannon here

Edit: According to mythbusters, it's Plausible

BrianD

Saw the mythbusters episode. Actually quite interesting:

Ordinary person getting in and doing it - Fail

Ordinary person being 'talked down' - plausible

In reality they said in the event you got behind the stick it would be a matter of setting autopilot and the plane could be landed. I'm sure it's not as simple as that but that was the premise.

nag

Auto-Land ftw

CaptainSkidmark

id say if you had a good knowledge of flight sim and you were in a ryanair 737 landing in shannon ud have a good chance. ils and autoland and all that?

TheAnswer

Define "land" exactly. Do the pax and crew have to be able to walk away from the "landing"?
If the answer is no, then "any fule" could land a plane:D

Gareth2011

hardCopy wrote: »

Probably depends on the conditions, the ATC guide and the instincts of the volunteer.

A quick google shows a few instances of passengers with some kind of flight experience jumping in to land or assist the pilot but I didn't find any stories of a complete novice.

One story from Shannon here

Edit: According to mythbusters, it's Plausible

good story i remember that. It says at one stage the co-pilot was yelling for god. I wonder was it god or alla? Saw on the news the other day a computer expert for one of the major airlines applied to be cabin crew. turns out he wanted to be cabin crew so he could plant a bomb on the plane. Also transpired he was in contact with al-quida hence wanting to blow up the plane. something totally unrelated but there ya go

mayflyatr

NO

Sterling Archer

Land - No or be it near impossible to land, controlled crash maybe
Be guided down by atc - yes possible, controlled crash yes,
Like said already, depends on the person, conditions, avionics etc

In a helicopter tho, no chance

highlydebased

nag wrote: »

Auto-Land ftw

But the ability of an ordinary civilian to set the aircraft up to autoland is questionable.

Lapin

I would hope that any aircraft I travel in would be controlled by an ordinary person. :eek:

simon_24

You should have watched the Darren Brown series on Ch4 a few months ago, in it he hypnotised a person to be brave enough to fly an 737 thinking it was real, it was actually a 737 Simulator in an emergency, and he landed it! its brilliant you can see it on 4OD

im invisible

surely you cant be serious??

Foggy43

He is and don't call him surley!

Del2005

Lapin wrote: »

I would hope that any aircraft I travel in would be controlled by an ordinary person. :eek:

Very few modern airplanes are flown by people now. It's all computers now.

It a very simplified way the pilots now only tell plane to take off, set the course for autopilot, tell plane to land. They can still take control if needed but a computer has faster reactions then a human.

Tenger

BrianD wrote: »

In reality they said in the event you got behind the stick it would be a matter of setting autopilot and the plane could be landed. I'm sure it's not as simple as that but that was the premise.

As mentioned in this 'self-help book' we can see that a passenger could be talked through the options IF their was a properly equiped airport available. The A330 captain 'consulted' in the writing of the book has said that if there is not suitable airport then everyone is in a lot of trouble!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VP4cgLHNEPA

Jumpy

Excuse me... I speak Jive.

BostonB

I don't think its as automated as ye think (hope) it is.

Without automated systems, I doubt an untrained person could handle the Pilot-induced oscillations. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pilot-induced_oscillation especially in a large aircraft. If they could be talked though the autopilot, I dunno.

hidinginthebush

I had a whirl on the Citijet simulator out the back of DUB not too long back (my gf's dad works for them and they do a thing for staff and family over christmas where all the money goes to charity, so it doesn't cost you a couple of grand for the pleasure). Anyway, I got to do a take-off, little circuit over Dublin, then a landing, and I must say, it was a lot easier than I thought it would be. Sure there was an instructor telling me what to do, and the computer kept chiming in with GLIDE-SLOPE...GLIDE-SLOPE... when I was flying manually on approach, but it wasn't too hard to get it on the ground. I say somebody with their head on their shoulders (hard enough to find on a plane when you've just been told the pilot and co-pilot are out of the game) would be able to do it if there was someone on the radio talking them through the process.

BostonB

I think its a little different having someone beside you who can see what you are doing and tell you how to correct, and someone on the end of a radio.

xflyer

Quite right BostonB, it's quite different if you don't have have the right person there to guide you down. Me with a thousand hours would think that everyone would die if I found myself in that situation. As it never happened yet, we'll never know.

For goodness sake, there is a hell of a difference between finding yourself in charge of an airliner full of real people and having a bit of fun in an airline simulator. I peronally feel that if it happened to me I would kill everyone on board.

hidinginthebush

Hmmm... think I'll keep my mouth shut if the situation every arises so

Manic Moran

I've always thought the physical act of flying (in an airplane) was a doddle. Pull the stick back, houses get smaller. Push the stick forward, houses get bigger. I'll wager any schmoe should be capable of getting an airliner to the appropriate scene of the crash.

It's all the rules and regulations that kill me.

NTM

savagecabbages

I'm not a pilot, but I've a pretty good understanding of how to fly a plane, i.e. I know what all the major controls do... I rekon with some coaching/encouragement I could manage

However somebody with very little understanding might struggle to grasp the concept...

I suppose really its down to how likely somebody is to panic at the last second, you can always abort and go around. Its definitely easier to keep a plane in the air than land it!

BostonB

Manic Moran wrote: »

I've always thought the physical act of flying (in an airplane) was a doddle. Pull the stick back, houses get smaller. Push the stick forward, houses get bigger. I'll wager any schmoe should be capable of getting an airliner to the appropriate scene of the crash.

It's all the rules and regulations that kill me.

NTM

Its harder than it appears. The problem is with an aircraft, unlike a car, doesn't react instantly. Theres a lag. If you are not used to this, you keep over correcting until you reach the point of no return.

More important than this stalling. Pull the nose up too much, especially in a turn and you'll slow down and stall. Put the nose down too much and you'll go too fast, which will mean you either damage the aircraft, flaps, wings, or you'll completely overshoot where you are trying to land. Stall too close to the ground and you'll fall out of the sky. Trying to turn an aircraft without climbing and losing speed, stalling or descending and over speeding is one of the first things you learn. (AFAIK). That said I'm not a pilot, though I have a long interest in aviation.

pclancy

On a clear day with no wind I'd give a small percentage of the population a fair chance of being able to land a cessna on their first go if they were talked down. With no help its very doubtfull anyone would manage the flare manoeuve without knowing what to do or how to manage power etc. More likely they would smack it down on the prop or stall from too high. If they could even find an airport.

I'd give nobody without real flight experience any chance at landing anything bigger the a 152 without crashing it. Not a hope. Even if you had been been flying 737s at home on your PC for ten years you couldnt do it. There are simply too many variables. Even if you got it down in one piece I bet you couldnt stop it in time or probably even steer it at landing speed

seanybiker

I'd grab a parachute and be gone. Only messing. I would be the chap puking me ring up. Never going on a plane again

Manic Moran

pclancy wrote: »

I bet you couldnt stop it in time or probably even steer it at landing speed

Actually, how are they steered? My 757 cockpit ride, I forgot to look. The C-130 driver used a hand wheel on the left cockpit wall. Is foot steering just a light aircraft thing?

NTM

pclancy

Captain has a tiller wheel generally for taxi steering. I'm talking about steering at 140Kts after you've just smashed your first landing Thats rudder territory and you're going to have a big mess if you've never done it before. I have trouble taxing a Tomahawk if i havent practiced recently, can you imagine a complete newbie trying to control a jet? No way.

Lapin

Lapin wrote: »

I would hope that any aircraft I travel in would be controlled by an ordinary person. :eek:

Del2005 wrote: »

Very few modern airplanes are flown by people now. It's all computers now.

Yes I know.

But I'd still prefer to have people in the flight deck all the same.

Even ordinary people. :rolleyes:

Bearcat

pclancy wrote: »

On a clear day with no wind I'd give a small percentage of the population a fair chance of being able to land a cessna on their first go if they were talked down. With no help its very doubtfull anyone would manage the flare manoeuve without knowing what to do or how to manage power etc. More likely they would smack it down on the prop or stall from too high. If they could even find an airport.

I'd give nobody without real flight experience any chance at landing anything bigger the a 152 without crashing it. Not a hope. Even if you had been been flying 737s at home on your PC for ten years you couldnt do it. There are simply too many variables. Even if you got it down in one piece I bet you couldnt stop it in time or probably even steer it at landing speed

Ditto...........most sensible reply yet......not as easy as you think folks......way too many variables......autopilot or not.

996tt

would atc's themselves be able? Fair enough they know the altitude and speed elements but do they know the controls and other variables such as flaps and how to touch down and brake?

Manic Moran

BostonB wrote: »

Its harder than it appears. The problem is with an aircraft, unlike a car, doesn't react instantly. Theres a lag.

You don't drive an automatic transmission, do you? :P

NTM

Bearcat

i'd say ATC's would give it a good go, actually a very good go:)

BrianD

In the mythbusters episode both "pilots" were talked down by a pilot and not ATC.

Both landed the plane successfully that would allow the passengers walk away.

It didn't show how many attempts they had at it! The programme suggested that both did it on first attempt.

The programme suggested that in a modern aircraft approaching a suitably equipped airfield that much of the piloting would be automated. This would depend on a pilot being able to advise them what buttons to push.

The scenario would obviously depend on some many variables falling into place.

Look at that Greek air crash a few years back when apparently a steward did manage to get to the flight deck only for the plane to run out of fuel.

gonedrinking

if I ever find myself in control of a 747 should I just land it in the sea?

mayflyatr

Take your chances landing on a runway. If by some miracle you had some chance of landing a 747 or any aircraft at an airport there are emergency services on hand for survivors..........thats if the landing goes ok!!!!

gonedrinking wrote: »

if I ever find myself in control of a 747 should I just land it in the sea?

BostonB

Manic Moran wrote: »

You don't drive an automatic transmission, do you? :P

NTM

No lol...

xflyer

The nearest to it ever happening was when the Helios flight crashed. The Steward got access to the flight deck but only when the power was lost and the flight deck door could be opened. By then it was too late and he couldn't prevent the crash in spite of him being a commercial pilot.

For anyone who honestly thinks it could be done. Let's take a typical scenario. A 737 enroute to Barbados to Caracas, Venezuela. Somehow the flight crew are incapacitated but manage to open the flight deck door before collapsing. There are no other pilots of any sort on board, not even a Microsoft pilot. So two people step forward. The jet is on autopilot, it's nightime and the weather is typical; cloudy with rain. The two new pilots are faced with a terrifying nightmare. They have to figure out how to communicate with ATC first. ATC will have to find a suitable pilot with experience on the particular airliner. He has to be able to explain to a very frightened person, how to use the autopilot, how to descend towards a suitable airport, how to set up the approach and how to land and stop the aircraft, all without running out of fuel and without losing contact over the radio. Even on a bright sunny day it would be near impossible.

Suppose there was a PPL onboard. He or she might have an advantage in terms of using the radio and other skills. But all the other factors would apply.

People talk about autoland but even that has to set up and organised. That would be on top of all the other new things that would be needed to get to the point where the aircraft would be in a position to make the approach.

In fact all of that could be practised in a simulator. It would be interesting if someone tried it in a realistic manner instead of the contrived way we have seen previously. The Derren Brown scenario was very contrived and set up for the subject to succeed. Put someone in the cockpit, in the circumstances described above and see if they sink or swim. But even then you couldn't duplicate the fear that would interfere with even the coolest head.

The most likely eventuality would be that the aircraft would run out of fuel and everyone would die.

BostonB

That would be a woeful movie.

Skuxx

gonedrinking wrote: »

if I ever find myself in control of a 747 should I just land it in the sea?

I wouldn't advise it!! Plane will most likely break up on impact killing everyone on board!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sKC9C0HCNH8

xoxyx

xflyer wrote: »

For goodness sake, there is a hell of a difference between finding yourself in charge of an airliner full of real people and having a bit of fun in an airline simulator. I personally feel that if it happened to me I would kill everyone on board.

'Cause of your rage??

jmayo

TheAnswer wrote: »

Define "land" exactly. Do the pax and crew have to be able to walk away from the "landing"?
If the answer is no, then "any fule" could land a plane:D

Actually I was told that a landing is just a controlled crash.
My other halfs sister was too impressed when I said this as she is petrified of flying.

Shane_ef wrote: »

Land - No or be it near impossible to land, controlled crash maybe
Be guided down by atc - yes possible, controlled crash yes,
Like said already, depends on the person, conditions, avionics etc

In a helicopter tho, no chance

Woooah a helicopter.
Now that would be interesting to watch a newbie trying to hover.

Del2005 wrote: »

Very few modern airplanes are flown by people now. It's all computers now.

It a very simplified way the pilots now only tell plane to take off, set the course for autopilot, tell plane to land. They can still take control if needed but a computer has faster reactions then a human.

Actually how flyable are modern passenger jets without computer aided controls ?
And yes I know modern fighters are unflyable.

BostonB wrote: »

...
Stalling is only a worry near the ground, oh yeah we are landing
Trying to turn an aircraft without climbing and losing speed, stalling or descending and over speeding is one of the first things you learn. (AFAIK).

For a newbie I would presume you would probably tell them fly very shallow truns at speeds higher than normal just to avoid possibity of stalls.
That would mean approach speed would probably be higher than normal and this then has knock on affects to stopping.

pclancy wrote: »

On a clear day with no wind I'd give a small percentage of the population a fair chance of being able to land a cessna on their first go if they were talked down. With no help its very doubtfull anyone would manage the flare manoeuve without knowing what to do or how to manage power etc. More likely they would smack it down on the prop or stall from too high. If they could even find an airport.

I'd give nobody without real flight experience any chance at landing anything bigger the a 152 without crashing it. Not a hope. Even if you had been been flying 737s at home on your PC for ten years you couldnt do it. There are simply too many variables. Even if you got it down in one piece I bet you couldnt stop it in time or probably even steer it at landing speed

Very true.
Some think because you can do it with MS Flight Sim then they could do it in real life.
The feedback and the actual sensation would be much different in real life.
Actually I got to sit in basic 737 sim setup (not your full big one as I am not rich).
I was talked through take off and landing, although my biggest problem was finding the airport again and taxing once landed.

gonedrinking wrote: »

if I ever find myself in control of a 747 should I just land it in the sea?

Then you can drown.

xflyer wrote: »

...
For anyone who honestly thinks it could be done. Let's take a typical scenario. A 737 enroute to Dublin from Britain. Somehow the flight crew are incapacitated but manage to open the flight deck door before collapsing.

If you are going to play what ifs couldn't you make it somewhere more exotic ?

BTW is there anyone goinbg flying soon ?

Tenger

jmayo wrote: »

BTW is there anyone goinbg flying soon ?

Define flying, taking a private prop up of taking a commercial flight?

BostonB

jmayo wrote: »

...
For a newbie I would presume you would probably tell them fly very shallow truns at speeds higher than normal just to avoid possibity of stalls.
That would mean approach speed would probably be higher than normal and this then has knock on affects to stopping.
...

It would be impossible for someone to guide you through that on a radio.

Bruthal

savagecabbages wrote: »

I'm not a pilot, but I've a pretty good understanding of how to fly a plane, i.e. I know what all the major controls do... I rekon with some coaching/encouragement I could manage

I heard 1 or 2 say that when going to fly the radio control ones which i do. Different story when they actually tried it though.

Interestingly though, we can fly one we have from a live video view from a camera on it, all flight info and all on screen, and a beginner would find that easier.

BostonB

jmayo wrote: »

....
Some think because you can do it with MS Flight Sim then they could do it in real life.
The feedback and the actual sensation would be much different in real life........

Indeed. But there are professional products even for MS FS which are massively complex, modeling much of jetliner aircraft systems, and autopilot systems. I know airline pilots who have these and are very impressed with them.

Even you weren't a pilot, and had spent weeks, using these, I would say you'd have a very good chance of being talked down. You'd know all the major controls, and how a plane reacts. You'd also know the tech lingo.

tippilot

A few points. Basically Im with Pclancy, but just to elaborate a little.

Automatics.
A few posters have described how modern aircraft are highly automated and while this is true to an extent, aircraft automatics require a very high level of management. There is constant pilot input to these systems and there are a myriad of modes for doing different things. There is more than on way to climb, descend, turn and approach. An autopilot is not just pressing a button and bob's your uncle. Far from it. Each individual action that the aircraft does, is individually inputted by the pilot. In every stage of flight, regardless of whether an aircraft is being manually flown or in autopilot the pilot is telling the plane what to do. When being manually flown it is through direct control input. When in autopilot, the pilot inputs the information into the autopilot control panel(MCP) or the Flight Management Computer. You are always either hands on or indirectly hands on. Already qualified instrument rated cadet pilots(circa 200hrs) will do two months of simulator training to be brought to a level where they can operate it to a minimum standard, even before they are released to fly a real aircraft and then only under the supervision of a Line Training Captain and initially a Safety Pilot in the jumpseat. Underestimating the complexity of these systems is a common mistake.
To be talked through it over the radio is almost an impossibility, due purely to the complexity of the command input systems. Here's a question: Would an untrained person even figure out the use of the radio?? I doubt even that.

One poster asked if an ATCO could make a go of it. With all due respect to ATCO's but they are at no advantage. I sometimes doubt if some are even given an understanding of the actual physics involved in managing an aircraft in different phases of flight. I would love to have ATCO's jump seating on line flights on a recurrent basis, purely to create a better level of mutual understanding.

In fact, the only non flying aviation professional I would put my money on would be an aircraft engineer. They have an intimate knowledge of aircraft and their systems and would be the best placed to safely recover an aircraft in an autoland situation.

Manual flight

There are a number of factors here that make the answer a definite no.

Under manual flight an aircraft is managed using various combinations of pitch, thrust and speed for rates of climb and descent. Speed management in particular is the catch. An aircraft's configuration(Flap setting and landing gear position) is changed a number of times on a normal approach in order to make a landing possible. Each setting requires a different combination of pitch, speed and thrust. It's not something you can make up as you go along, there are aircraft limitations before you either tear the flaps off or stall. To fly an approach correctly you must fly your pitch to the numbers and you must fly your speed to the numbers. Thrust settings are varied to accomplish this. It is very complex.

Easy when you get the hang of it but getting to that point takes a long time. Even a gust of wind will require a reaction from the pilot, most likely in pitch, thrust and bank. Even multi million euro full flight simulators have a hard time replicating real flying conditions.

We all like to think that if we got the chance we could be the "hero". In reality folks even if you put a PPL in the hot seat in an emergency situation I can almost guarantee it will not end successfully. (Reason for the PPL guys: The pitch/power combo works in the opposite sense on an airliner than a light aircraft-takes a bit of mind training and also the swept wing is a slippy bugger that requires an approach to be flown with surprising(and varying) amounts of power depending on configuration/weight/external conditions.)

Sorry folks its just a non runner! I had 400 hours on various light aircraft before I started flying jets. I'm in the thousands now. They are a completely different proposition and I have no hesitation in admitting that it takes quite a lot of training and hours to just even get a "feel" for flying them.

Tenger

Well answered.

Good explanation of how computer aided flying doesn't mean no work for the flight crew.

As you say, its nice to think 'we' could keep a cool head and be the hero in this situation. (Simply making radio contact with ATC would be an achievement) I would guess that you have less than 5% chance of surviving, let alone 'landing' in the normal manner.

Bruthal

Tenger wrote: »

I would guess that you have less than 5% chance of surviving, let alone 'landing' in the normal manner.

I`d guess closer to 0% on both there.

Bearcat

send that man tipilot over a beer!! well said tip, great practical insight of what goes on. A lot of folk out there think airline pilots are just glorified bus drivers that push a few buttons......not so.....there may be the demenaour of all laid back but there's a lot of paddling going on underneath the water.