Anyone else sick of constant demands for money from schools?

Kashkai

Every day (well thats what it seems like) I go home, there's yet another little note from my children's primary school looking for money/offering extra classes (for a fee of course)/extra curricular activities etc etc.

At the start of the year,we were asked for a "voluntary" contribution of €80 per child. Now that we have 3 kids in this school (with two more to follow), we had to fork out €240. Parents who didn't/couldn't afford this voluntary contribution were asked to contact the school to discuss this. Talk about bloody demeaning to someone who might be struggling with their finances (aren't most of us) or have lost their job. They are expected to go cap in hand to the bloody school to lower themselves by pleading inability to pay.

Then there's the extra after school classes in drama/french/Irish dancing etc that costs €40 each for the 6 - 8 week course. Nice earner for the teacher and I'm sure they're paying tax on it:rolleyes:.

Then there's the other courses like "Fit Kids", "Playball", "Swimming" that cost upwards of €60 for 4 - 6 weeks.

Bloody hell, its getting like I should just hand my salary over to the damn school and be done with it. We've let our kids do some of the above but not all of it by a long shot as we can't afford it. While my kids aren't the ungrateful demanding types, its only natural for them to wonder why they can't do something their friends are doing.

If only the bloody school would cop on and realise that we can't fund all these damn classes/activities and by sending out their little notes in the kid's schoolbags, they've already lined up the Parents for the guilt trip in having to decide if we can eke out our money to fund these classes or if we will have to tell our kids the answer is No.

Would the schools ever cop on and realise that there's a recession on and the majority of us have had our pay savaged while mortgages etc go up in cost.

Fittle

You obviously came up with your username during the Celtictiger no?:D

I would agree with you though. I think the schools themselves are struggling hugely and are coming up with all sorts of 'course's that they can make a profit from.
Sick of it myself. Particularly the 'voluntary' contribution that comes home with your childs name on the envelope, asking for 50euro to be sent back in the same envelope so they know who gives, and who doesn't:rolleyes:.

I didn't contribute last week because I genuinely couldn't afford it.

smelltheglove

Have you spoken to the school about this? My little ones school do free Irish dancing instead of PE one term a year. We arent asked for any money apart fromtrips and the yearly school fee. They also were great when hubbie was out of work and arranged free books and let me pay off the yearly payment in installments too.

I am sick of the amount of letters though, theres always a newsletter or something in the bag!

A voluntary contribution? I never heard of that before.

Haha. Why would anyone voluntarily give a school money? Is it not schools that have gone madly overboard with their ridiculous uniforms (in my old school, you weren't allowed wear any hoodie/jacket etc. that didn't have the school crest, which of course cost a fortune!) and book schemes, where you get 40 year old, ripped, torn and battered books for a premium price?


Did you ever hear the likes of it in your life. I hope people aren't falling for that. What are they gonna do with the people who don't pay? Not teach their child?

Kashkai

My kid's national school has a school Principal who does not live in the real world. When all other kids make do with blackboards/whiteboards, this school principal had dozens of fund raisers, i.e. raids on my wallet, to buy large video screens that could be linked up to the teacher's laptops for lessons. She not only won't allow the kids the free school lunches that other kids get, she dictate's what we are allowed to give our kid's for lunch by issuing an "approved lunches" memo every September. This in a little country school in a tiny little village in the middle of nowhere!

The kids don't do regular PE anymore, despite having a big gym beside the school. She arranged for the kid's to take swimming lessons in Naas which the Parents had to pay for!. No, free PE in school just wouldn't do when she could get the parents to fork out more money for swimming lessons.

Dades

If the school started demanding the return of their voluntary envelopes I'd be inclined to return their envelope with the definition of voluntary printed on a banknote-sized piece of paper.

School costs are not something I'm looking forward to!

Gloomtastic!

The Dept. of Education basically pays for teachers salaries and school upkeep. Anything else has to be paid for - copy books, photocopying, toilet rolls etc, etc

If you don't pay the 'voluntary' fees then others are subsidising your kid's education.

If you can't pay, talk to them. What's the worst that happen?

Compared to creches, schools are cheap as chips. €80 a year, we used to pay that a day in creche fees!

LegacyUser

surely toilet roll and photocopying count as running costs (aka "upkeep")? If not, then what exactly qualifies as upkeep?

As for copy books, we had to buy these ourselves when I were a lad... anyway I didnt spend 80 quid on copy books!

So what exactly is this 80 quid a year for, if the dept of education is supposed to pay to keep schools up and running?

byhookorbycrook

"Then there's the extra after school classes in drama/french/Irish dancing etc that costs €40 each for the 6 - 8 week course. Nice earner for the teacher and I'm sure they're paying tax on it.

Then there's the other courses like "Fit Kids", "Playball", "Swimming" that cost upwards of €60 for 4 - 6 weeks"

These are essentially after school are, it is not part of the school day so it is optional,no-one forces you to send your child to any of these.

Swimming is part of the PE curriculum,but is not funded by the DES.
any money raised by a school is for the good of the pupils. It does not fund a staff cruise during the summer.

The majority of schools now have interactive whiteboards, chalk boards are long since gone.

I know of no non-disadvantaged school that gets these free lunches you talk about.

The school has a healthy lunch policy, which would have been agreed by the board of management (where there is a parent rep). In the days of increasing childhood obesity, why would you oppose this??

LostinKildare

Yes, it bothers me, but I don't blame the school, I blame the state.

I grew up in the US where public school is free. No expensive uniforms (no uniforms at all, usually). Free schoolbooks (owned by the state), free transportation to and from school provided by the state. No "voluntary" (read: required) contributions to pay for "stationery" -- or toilet paper or the heating bill. No extra fees so that children can learn to swim or to fund a drama or music teacher during school hours. No shelling out for fundraisers just to fund building repairs. Ah, don't get me started on school buildings. Irish primary schools should have auditoriums, cafeterias, gymnasiums. All of these things in US schools are paid for by the state, from taxes.

IMO the state should fully fund the education of the nation's children -- schools shouldn't have to go begging to parents in order to provide a basic education in a very basic facility. When you look at the crap the govt has wasted tax money on and then see six-year-olds shivering in prefabs, it speaks volumes about Ireland's priorities and how seriously we take that stuff about "cherishing" our children.

Orion

It's the unfortunate fact of the matter that schools are seriously underfunded. I was treasurer on the BoM of a primary school so trust me on this - seriously underfunded. I'm also a parent of twins in that school so I've seen it from both sides.

Teacher's salaries are paid directly by the state. There is a capitation grant (previously capitation + ancillary grants) based on the number of children in the school but it barely covers the essentials. Out of these grants you must pay light, heat, cleaning, rates, repairs, insurance, etc etc before you can even look at educational resources.

Here's a kicker that most people aren't aware of too. The first payment in a school year comes in late Jan/early Feb. The school has to survive the entire first term on a shoestring. Yes - the capitation grant from the DoE is in arrears!

So what's the school to do? Resources are needed for the education of the children. Which means fundraising. Lots of it - as much as the market will bear.

Extra-curricular activities are optional - and the school simply cannot afford to pay for them. So for those optional activities - yes - you will be asked to pay if you choose to send your child.

Voluntary contributions are just that - voluntary. If your school calls people in or even worse - names people who don't pay - then bring it up at the next PA meeting. It is a voluntary contribution. It is hoped that all parents who can afford it will pay it but it cannot be forced or coerced and if there is this humiliation then it must be stopped by the parents. There are two parents on the BoM - speak to them about it. If you would like to pay it but cannot pay it in one go or would like to pay less then talk to the chairperson or treasurer. Trust me - they will be very accomodating to anyone who approaches them and will take anything offered.

As regards the "video screens" they are called interactive whiteboards and they are greatly beneficial to the children's education. They help incorporate an AV aspect to education which captures their attention and allows participation in that education.

The 'approved lunches' is most likely called a Healthy Eating Policy. Personally I fully endorse such a policy. I'd like to know what your problem is with that. Does it specify certain products or shops that you must use or does it just mention do's and don'ts such as in that link.

I'd be certain the school runs other fundraisers. The more people that get involved in them the less direct contributions are requested from parents. I'd suggest all parents get involved with their school's PA and help out where they can. As a certain British brand says - Every Little Helps.

If you want more information about state funding and how little it is I can dig it up for you.

I hope I have helped you to understand the need for fundraising and h

byhookorbycrook

I suggest that the OP takes himself off to parents' assoc AGM and has a look at the accounts. There was a programme with Eddie Hobbs not so long ago where he tried to help a school break even-and couldn't -and that was before school capitation was cut AGAIN in the last budget.

http://www.rte.ie/tv/showmethemoney/20070513.html

Orion

This isn't a Parenting forum issue - moving to Primary & Pre School

Kashkai

This is a bloody parenting issue because I'm the bad parent who has to say no to his three kids as we can't afford to fork out another €180 for the latest after school activity.

The purpose of this thread was to highlight the fact that the school just doesn't bloody well appear to acknowledge that a lot of parents, if not the majority, are barely keeping their heads above water as it is without these constant demands for extra activities after school. I know one set of parents who had their home repossesed recently and they still fork out for these after school activities as they don't want their kids to lose any face with their peers. The argument that these activities are optional just ignores the basic fact that if kids are told of this "exciting new activity after school", they will want to do it. Kids just don't understand (and at their young age, I wouldn't want them burdened with the knowledge) that their parents are barely keeping a roof over their heads and food on the table.

As for the free school lunches, my two brothers say their kids get the free lunches and they do not go to "disadvantaged schools". My mother works part time in a school and she says the kids there get the free lunches. The local school principal has openly stated that she won't allow them because the kids used to spill the milk and cause the carpets to stink. Her approved lunch menu is a cheek. Parents are best placed to decide what their kids should eat. While there are some who think crisps and a mars bar is a nourishing lunch, the majority of us are intelligent enough to give our kids healthy lunches.

With regard to the Voluntary contributions, there is nothing voluntary about them and for those who are a little late in handing over the money, their kids get weekly notes sent home pointing out that "the majority have already paid and it is unfair that some do not". No whats unfair is that some people can't afford to buy food, pay bills or even lose their home.

The school's pre-occupation with fund raising for the latest high tech gadgetry is more than a little off the wall. This isn't the Celtic Tiger anymore and teachers should relearn how to get off their ass and use a whiteboard to teach the kids. Five fund raisers since last September for another electronic board is bloody stupid.

Now I'll just sit back and wait for the rebuttals pointing out how tough the schools have it. Well you know something, its not as bloody tough as telling your kids that they have to leave their home because the bank is repossessing it like some people I know.

Orion

You've some anger here Dave but I do think it is misplaced. The school is only acting in the interests of the children. Look at activities from the other side. If there were no extra curricular activities provided at all would that be fair to the children? Of course you can't pay for everything. We can't either. We've explained to our children that they can't be involved in everything. Kids are great - they will accept it if you are straight with them.

I don't know about the lunches - I'm not aware of any of the 4 primary schools in Maynooth providing free lunches. I don't know what the rules are there. Most schools have Healthy Eating policies. Your school's one is pretty standard according to the website. It has one to stop parent's sending in crisps and Mars bars as a lunch. But generally they are common sense policies. If yours is too restrictive them talk to the PA and get it referred to the BoM. All policies have to be approved and if the Principal is enforcing her own agenda then she can be stopped.

Voluntary contributions are voluntary. You should bring these notes up at the PA level and get them stopped. I fully agree with you on this - it's reprehensible that they are taking this approach. If the PA don't get behind you on this then contact the National Parents Council directly. That form of bullying needs to be stopped immediately.

If I gave the impression that I was being one-sided in favour of the school then that was unintentional. I was merely pointing out that schools have little discretionary income and do need to fundraise. Also that extra activities are not free and the school cannot afford to pay for them - but they are optional. Your kids may kick up a little but at the end of the day they will get over it.

Finally - I moved this here because I feel it will get more responses than on the Parenting forum. I think this forum is more relevant to the discussion. If I erred then I apologise.

whatdoicare

I was telling my cousin about this Thread and she gave the best answer ever -:pac:
She simply couldn't afford the voluntary contribution for her triplets so when the three envelopes came home to her one day she drew up a breakdown of her weekly finances/expenditure/budget in a spreadsheet, then her monthly and then yearly.
She placed each "pack" in the envelopes and invited the teacher/principal to revise her budget and point out where she could find the 240 euro to pay the contribution.
Noone got back to her crazily enough

Fittle

In our school, (all boys school, 350 pupils, Dublin) our children were asked to bring in their own toilet roll all of last year - I kid you not - and facecloths to be used as towels, as the school was making cutbacks in relations to alot of their facilities. My lad goes to a 'decent' enough school in Dublin but it is not deemed to be 'disadvantaged' by the Dept of Ed, and therefore does not fall into the remit of the DEIS scheme.

Our next door neighbour chose to send her boy to the local school, which does fall into the scheme, so I hear on a daily basis, the difference between what both schools get from the Dept of Ed - below are some examples - to this day I regret not sending him to the local school (for other reasons also), but unfortunately, his current school was right beside my job when he was starting..

Our school - Just spent another 3 months fundraising for our 4th Interactive White board - 12 left to get.
Neighbours school - Every classroom has had an interactive white board, with no fundraising required from parents.

Our school - An afterschool club costing 100euro per term for 1.5hours, 4 days per week.
Neighbours school - An afterschool club, FREE, until 6pm 5 days a week.

Our school - Bring your own lunch, buy your own books etc
Neighbours school - Free lunches (sandwiches & milk & fruit) and book rental scheme

Our school - Crested uniform & crested tracksuit to be bought from specific shop
Neighbours school - Tracksuit uniform - plain navy with blue collared tshirt (that can be bought in any dunnes/penneys) with crest to be bought from school at a cost of 5euro.

The list goes on but you get the idea. From what I can gather, the schools that fit into the DEIS criteria get everything, and other schools get nothing.

Kashkai

Firstly, to Macro I apologise for being a little (lot?) over the top. You are right in what you say and I will definitely follow your suggestion to raise my issues at the next BoM meeting as quietly fuming at home gets me nowhere.

Like all parents I want the very best for my 5 kids. I was once financially "comfortable" in that I had enough money to do pretty much what I wanted, but not enough to say buy a Mercedes. However with several pay cuts totalling over nine grand to my salary the past few years and tax increases, cuts in mortgage interest relief, and child benefit on top of that, I like a lot of people are no longer financially comfortable and for the first time since the 80's, I'm dreading the next bill coming in whether its ESB, home heating oil, car insurance etc etc. Coming home each day and then seeing another request from the flipping school for money just annoys the hell out of me. Since last September, we've forked out over €600 on voluntary contributions, extra curricular activities etc and that doesn't include giving money to the kids to buy cakes in the school cake sales of which there have been two or three. This school has a perfectly good gym but they look for money to send teh kids to swimming lessons in Naas. My eldest girl knows how to swim and didn't want to go and the Principal gave out to her in front of her class for not bringing in the money, and that "alternative arrangements will have to be made to supervise you".

I've two more kids to go to school in the coming years and I can see the cost going through the €1,000 barrier for this free school education. God help me if they ever start charging for it.

Orion

No need to apologise - it's a hot topic at the moment. Everyone is feeling the pinch. FYI - the BoM meets alone. It's the PTA meeting you need to go to.

As for the child being humiliated like that I know exactly what I would do as I would find that disgraceful. Contact the school and request a copy of the complaints procedure. Initiate this procedure.
First step is to meet the Principal and discuss it. If you are not happy with the outcome then go to the next stage which is usually to meet the Principal with the chairperson of the BoM. This is the final informal stage. After that if you are unsatisfied you make a formal complaint in writing to the BoM and they must review it and follow the final stage of the complaint.

Just as a friendly warning here you may want to be careful what you say about the principal. The school may be identified from your posts and therefore who the person is. You do not want to post anything here that may be either considered libelous or may weaken your case should you go down the complaints procedure.

overmantle

Prosperous Dave wrote: »

My kid's national school has a school Principal who does not live in the real world. When all other kids make do with blackboards/whiteboards, this school principal had dozens of fund raisers, i.e. raids on my wallet, to buy large video screens that could be linked up to the teacher's laptops for lessons. She not only won't allow the kids the free school lunches that other kids get, she dictate's what we are allowed to give our kid's for lunch by issuing an "approved lunches" memo every September. This in a little country school in a tiny little village in the middle of nowhere!

The kids don't do regular PE anymore, despite having a big gym beside the school. She arranged for the kid's to take swimming lessons in Naas which the Parents had to pay for!. No, free PE in school just wouldn't do when she could get the parents to fork out more money for swimming lessons.

In a word, 'No'. Being honest, the schools I deal with are very conscious of expenses and how they impact on parents. Mind you, some secondary schools are still going on ski trips, with which I have a big problem.

waster81

Prosperous Dave wrote: »

Every day (well thats what it seems like) I go home, there's yet another little note from my children's primary school looking for money/offering extra classes (for a fee of course)/extra curricular activities etc etc.

At the start of the year,we were asked for a "voluntary" contribution of €80 per child. Now that we have 3 kids in this school (with two more to follow), we had to fork out €240. Parents who didn't/couldn't afford this voluntary contribution were asked to contact the school to discuss this. Talk about bloody demeaning to someone who might be struggling with their finances (aren't most of us) or have lost their job. They are expected to go cap in hand to the bloody school to lower themselves by pleading inability to pay.

Then there's the extra after school classes in drama/french/Irish dancing etc that costs €40 each for the 6 - 8 week course. Nice earner for the teacher and I'm sure they're paying tax on it:rolleyes:.

Then there's the other courses like "Fit Kids", "Playball", "Swimming" that cost upwards of €60 for 4 - 6 weeks.

Bloody hell, its getting like I should just hand my salary over to the damn school and be done with it. We've let our kids do some of the above but not all of it by a long shot as we can't afford it. While my kids aren't the ungrateful demanding types, its only natural for them to wonder why they can't do something their friends are doing.

If only the bloody school would cop on and realise that we can't fund all these damn classes/activities and by sending out their little notes in the kid's schoolbags, they've already lined up the Parents for the guilt trip in having to decide if we can eke out our money to fund these classes or if we will have to tell our kids the answer is No.

Would the schools ever cop on and realise that there's a recession on and the majority of us have had our pay savaged while mortgages etc go up in cost.

If you cant afford to have kids that what you having more for. Why didnt you cop on and realise you couldnt afford to have 5 kids,

If only parents would cop on and realise if you cant afford to pay for the kids dont have them.

Get up of your arse and do some voulunteering in the school, go in and run your own classes, you wont have to pay for them, and you can give them free to other kids

Who do you bloody want to pay for your childs education, if its not enough to resource the school, then im sure you will be more than happy to pay extra taxes, its YOUR childs education after all.

But you will always have parents who cant say NO, will just say yes to keep their little darlings happy.

D4RK ONION

Waster, please keep unhelpful comments such as "you shouldn't have had 5 kids, it's your own fault" to yourself, such input is not welcome on this forum. Consider this your on thread warning, as per the charter.

Keep it civil

Usual Boards.ie rules apply. No trolling, flaming, trying to get a rise out of people.

waster81

Yes yes of course its not his fault its everybody elses, teachers, the principal, the government, the next door neighbour, the next door neighbours dog.

He is without blame at all.

boatbuilder

We get letters sent home all the time and they usually go something like..." Your vountary contribution for heating and cleaning is due by the 15th February"

Fed up with things like this, they should learn to handle their non-pay budgets better IMO... I think thats what it boils down to...principals who can't manage their allocated money, so push the shortfall onto parents in the form of "voluntary" contributions. Who ever heard of a "due date" for voluntary contributions?
This is what we did in response.....

Dear Mrs. Principal
We are under a lot of financial pressure at the minute so unfortunately we can not pay money towards cleaning and heating. We hope that you can understand.
Thank you for your work with (kid) in school
Regards,

D4RK ONION

I think the OP has gotten his answer, thanks to all who contributed helpfully to this thread

Closed