If Ireland was invaded tonight ?

Lapin

Lets just say another nation decided to declare war on Ireland at 11.59 this evening and their troops started arriving immediately after that for arguments sake !

Who should officially deal with the crisis ?

Brian Cowan, still officially Taoiseach, but no longer a TD.

Brian Lenihan, most senior member of the outgoing government.

Eamonn O'Cuiv, minister for defence.

Micheál Martin, leader of the biggest party in the outgoing government.

Enda Kenny, leader of the biggest party in the incoming government, but not yet elected as Taoiseach.

Seamus Kirk, Ceann Comhairle.

Suspend government and introduce martial law.



Please, no silly answers about Ireland's ability to fight back etc.... Go to AH for that?

Keep this to discussion on who should constitutionally take the role in the (obvious) unlikelyhood that such a situation would arise. And whether you agree that the constitution has it right.
Lets keep the personalities of the politicians out of it too, or political opinions.
The focus is on the roles rather than the parties or the individuals who hold the positions listed above.

3DataModem

The President would decide.

GSF

Why is tonight any different to last night or the night before that?

Lapin

GSF wrote: »

Why is tonight any different to last night or the night before that?

It isn't.

I only thought about this tonight.

drkpower

Cowen, obviously, as he is still the taoiseach until the dail votes for enda; although presumably enda would be centrally involved also.

dixiefly

You didnt mention Gerry Adams....I would rather have him taking charge in such a situation than all of the above except perhaps Enda Kenny.

LordSutch

Presumably David Cameron would be the man to act, seeing as we would be totally helpless.

Although, I can't see where the threat would come from!

troposphere

Whoever can dial a phone the fastest

Lapin

drkpower wrote: »

Cowen, obviously, as he is still the taoiseach until the dail votes for enda; although presumably enda would be centrally involved also.

On paper it would seem obvious. But the recent election shows that obviously the outgoing Taoiseach no longer has the confidence of the people ?

delta_bravo

Chief O'Hara

Lapin

dixiefly wrote: »

You didnt mention Gerry Adams.....

Why would the constitution deem a newly elected TD in a minority opposition party, (and not even leader of that party in the Dáil), to be a suitable person to lead the country in a time of crisis ?

Like I said, lets keep political preferences out of this.

Lapin

LordSutch wrote: »

Presumably David Cameron would be the man to act, seeing as we would be totally helpless.

Although, I can't see where the threat would come from!

Lapin wrote: »

Please, no silly answers about Ireland's ability to fight back etc.... Go to AH for that?

Keep this to discussion on who should constitutionally take the role in the (obvious) unlikelyhood that such a situation would arise.

Unless you consider that rejoining the United Kingdom in times of crises should be included as a clause in our constitution ?

Big_Evil

My understanding is this - due to the state of flux regarding current authority in Ireland (outgoing government, existing ministers no longer being TD's etc.. creates an anomoly). Where such anomoly exists, power diverts to the Council of State in conjuction with the President, where relevent response to invasion threat is worked..either mobilise defence forces to defend our borders, or capitulate to invader (or try to hold out until the famous EU Battle Groups come to put manners on our unwanted guests and send them packing)

drkpower

Lapin wrote: »

On paper it would seem obvious. But the recent election shows that obviously the outgoing Taoiseach no longer has the confidence of the people ?

So what?
He is stilll the Taoiseach and therefore he is the person who has the authority to make the decisions required. Noone else does. Perhaps, the Dail would meet early in the morning to vote in Enda to ensure the elected leader is the actual leader.

If a US president loses a presidential election in October, the president-elect does not replace him until January. Who do you think would make these decisions in the US context? The old president, obviously, despite having 'lost the confidecne of the people'.

This really is a pointless thread.

Big_Evil

I might add too: we live in a world of modern communications - very difficult to hide an invasion force, declare war at 11:59, and drop an invasion force on our shores 1 min later without someone noticing. So, lets put it this way: 11:59 someone declares war in Ireland, we have a limited (and vital) timeframe to get ourselves organised. Council of State under the President formally mobilise our Defence Force, draft official response form Ireland to the War Declaration, work to involve the EU Battle Groups to reinforce our own (and lets face it, very limited) defence, and begin to set our economy on a war footing (how the current state of the Irish economy would be geared towards war could be a thread on its very own!)
Either way, we have a window of time, albeit, short.
While Council of State and the President would work on the above, newly elected Government would be sworn in, cabinit announced, and Enda would be our Winston Churchill (another thread in the making there)
This can be done well before any enemy troops set foot on Irish soil....

Fratton Fred

Lapin wrote: »

Unless you consider that rejoining the United Kingdom in times of crises should be included as a clause in our constitution ?

That's the reality though

StupidLikeAFox

We would probably have to run it by Ollie Rehn

"Alrite lads, Ollie says we're allowed to fire 27 bullets, better make them count"

RandomName2

Lapin wrote: »

Why would the constitution deem a newly elected TD in a minority opposition party, (and not even leader of that party in the Dáil), to be a suitable person to lead the country in a time of crisis ?

Because he knows where the guns are. Obviously.

Lapin

drkpower wrote: »

This really is a pointless thread.

Well bugger off somewhere else then.

Big_Evil wrote: »

I might add too: we live in a world of modern communications - very difficult to hide an invasion force, declare war at 11:59, and drop an invasion force on our shores 1 min later without someone noticing.......

True, but the scenario I described is purely hypothetical.

I'm simply curious to see what others think the proper course of action should be in times of political limbo like the one we have now.

drkpower

Lapin wrote: »

Well bugger off somewhere else then.

You should be thanking me; I gave you the correct answer to your question.
/thread.

Gratitude?

Manach

Allow the Armed forces to contain the threat as those are the professionals?

Lapin

drkpower wrote: »

You should be thanking me; I gave you the correct answer to your question.
/thread.

Gratitude?

I don't think you did.

The constitution states that the Taoiseach must be a member of the Dáil.

Therefore Brian Cowan is Taoiseach in name only. So as I see it, His position is untenable.

Also, comparing our change of government to the procedures in place in the United States is not comparing like with like. Totally different set up.

Gratitude suspended,

drkpower

Lapin wrote: »

I don't think you did.

The constitution states that the Taoiseach must be a member of the Dáil.

Therefore Brian Cowan is Taoiseach in name only. So as I see it, His position is untenable.

See Article 28:

2° The members of the Government in office at the date of a dissolution of Dáil Éireann shall continue to hold office until their successors shall have been appointed.

At least do a little bit of research before posting....:rolleyes:

Lapin wrote: »

Also, comparing our change of government to the procedures in place in the United States is not comparing like with like. Totally different set up.

Gratitude suspended,

It is (almost) precisely the same.

Our Government remains , both prior to and after an election, until a successor is appointed.
Their president remains , both prior to and after an election, until a successor is appointed.

View

Big_Evil wrote: »

I might add too: we live in a world of modern communications - very difficult to hide an invasion force, declare war at 11:59, and drop an invasion force on our shores 1 min later without someone noticing. So, lets put it this way: 11:59 someone declares war in Ireland, we have a limited (and vital) timeframe to get ourselves organised. Council of State under the President formally mobilise our Defence Force, draft official response form Ireland to the War Declaration, work to involve the EU Battle Groups to reinforce our own (and lets face it, very limited) defence, and begin to set our economy on a war footing (how the current state of the Irish economy would be geared towards war could be a thread on its very own!)
Either way, we have a window of time, albeit, short.
While Council of State and the President would work on the above, newly elected Government would be sworn in, cabinit announced, and Enda would be our Winston Churchill (another thread in the making there)
This can be done well before any enemy troops set foot on Irish soil....

You can forget about the EU Battle Groups helping - they have no legal basis to do so as defence is not a task assigned to them (largely at the behest of Ireland and the other non-aligned member states). In addition - even if they did want to adopt such a task to try and help us - we would almost definitely require a constitutional amendment to allow for this change in the EU Treaties (as we'd need to overturn part of the text of BnahE adopted after Nice I which limits our ability to approve any such measures).

deise go deo

LordSutch wrote: »

Presumably David Cameron would be the man to act, seeing as we would be totally helpless.

Although, I can't see where the threat would come from!

Sorry, but we have an Army, They have a website and everything. I am a member of it, They put in a lot of work to ensure that Ireland is not totally helpless.

deise go deo

View wrote: »

You can forget about the EU Battle Groups helping - they have no legal basis to do so as defence is not a task assigned to them (largely at the behest of Ireland and the other non-aligned member states). In addition - even if they did want to adopt such a task to try and help us - we would almost definitely require a constitutional amendment to allow for this change in the EU Treaties (as we'd need to overturn part of the text of BnahE adopted after Nice I which limits our ability to approve any such measures).

If Ireland requested the Help of the EU battle groups there should be no problem like you alluded to. Ireland is a member of the EU battle groups. Our troops train with them already, it would make perfect sense for their assistance to be requested in such a situation.

dsmythy

deise go deo wrote: »

Sorry, but we have an Army, They have a website and everything. I am a member of it, They put in a lot of work to ensure that Ireland is not totally helpless.

Maybe not totally helpless but the result would already be clear and all they would be doing is stalling the invasion as much as possible until our European friends and the United Nations talk about the situation while the UK followed by the US do something about it.

Whatsastory

Ireland has been invaded and neither the troops nor the Gardai nor the government have done anything to counteract it.

We are allowed to keep our flag flying to amuse us but if we dont play ball with anything else we'll have our lights turned off.

nuff zed.

www.theirishsheeple.webs.com

keno-daytrader

Angela Merkel or Nicolas Sarkozy would be my guess.

DublinWriter

Too late, we were already *invaded by the IMF/EU a few months ago.

*Sorry, did I say invaded? I meant arse-raped.

Judgement Day

Who has the codes for our nuclear deterrent in a case like this?

county man

Judgement Day wrote: »

Who has the codes for our nuclear deterrent in a case like this?

Michael Healy- Rae but he wont reveal them until a new road is built in South Kerry.:rolleyes:

Manic Moran

deise go deo wrote: »

They put in a lot of work to ensure that Ireland is not totally helpless.

Shame they have been utterly foiled in that endeavour by the Government...

NMT

Liam Byrne

DublinWriter wrote: »

Too late, we were already *invaded by the IMF/EU a few months ago.

Obviously true, because Cowen & Lenihan didn't invite them, didn't know they were coming, and didn't start negotiations with them*

* That is, if you believe a word those two plonkers ever uttered

old_aussie

If Ireland was invaded tonight, it would be all over by the next sunrise.

Being neutral will not make one bit of difference, if some country wanted Ireland(for the hell of me I don't know why they would want to take over a debt) they would just drop 100,000 heavily armed paratroops and Ireland would be in their control.

COUCH WARRIOR

would the daft triple lock mechanism kick in, requiring a UN resolution before we could act to defend ourselves?

ninty9er

COUCH WARRIOR wrote: »

would the daft triple lock mechanism kick in, requiring a UN resolution before we could act to defend ourselves?

No. Applies to overseas missions.

COUCH WARRIOR

ninty9er wrote: »

No. Applies to overseas missions.

I can sleep easy now

View

deise go deo wrote: »

If Ireland requested the Help of the EU battle groups there should be no problem like you alluded to. Ireland is a member of the EU battle groups. Our troops train with them already, it would make perfect sense for their assistance to be requested in such a situation.

Again, there is no legal basis for EU battle groups to get involved in the defence of any member state. Therefore the EU battle groups are NOT going to help us in such a situation by acting ultra vires. There is no clause in EU law that says "Ireland shall not defend the other member states should any of them be attacked, but they must rush to defend us should we be attacked". EU law largely works on a quid pro quo basis - "You want free trade access to our state? Sure, just as soon as we get free trade access to your state."