Head gasket agony

cantdecide

My spare car is a 1995 316i saloon with 210000 miles. I have posted about this issue in the past. I put it off the road last Summer when it started overheating. I was told it was the head gasket.

Having said that, I know they didn’t use gas or pressure testing equipment. It was their judgment that it was the head gasket and all the evidence pointed to it- intermittent loss of coolant, overheating etc. I replaced the car at the time and kept it not knowing if I’d fix it or not.

Myself and my dad asked my uncle who is a former mechanic to fix the head gasket. He said he would. He looked at the car and determined that it wasn’t the head gasket at all and it was probably just the rad. The rad guy confirmed the old one had a couple of different problems and I replaced it. It kept using a bit of coolant. It started overheating again.

To date, I have changed the old rad bottle, then a whole new rad, a 2 bar cap, a 1.4 bar cap, thermostat & housing, the fan clutch, hoses etc. NCT fees, lots of coolant, 3 months tax, clips/ hoses, new track rod ends, tyres and wishbones and it has now passed the test. Myself and dad have gone halves on over €1,000 to get it going again on the basis that it’s not the head gasket. As far as I’m concerned, the only thing left are the head gasket and water pump that could explain the overheating, right?

I’ve always felt that my uncle was too optimistic at times. I am now having to put between half a litre and a litre of coolant/ water into the rad before I go on any journey. Last week it overheated in traffic and blew off most of the coolant. The hoses were fully 'inflated' and there was no heat coming through the heater. My uncle is adamant it’s not the head gasket, my dad is hysterical about it being the head gasket and wants to scrap the car instead.

What am I supposed to do? Surely having done all the peripherals, the thing to do now is just do the gasket right? It can’t cost all that much more to do the gasket and pump on their own now, right?

voxpop

If there is pressure build up in the coolant hoses - that would point me towards the head gasket tbh. Exhaust gasses leaking into the water jacket.

Have you any mayo under the oil cap / expansion tank - any signs of water/oil mixing ? Smokey after the car should have warmed up.


On costs - water pump is easy. HG can be a pain - most of the cost would be labour - maybe 6 hours

DublinDilbert

cantdecide wrote: »

My spare car is a 1995 316i saloon with 210000 miles. I have posted about this issue in the past. I put it off the road last Summer when it started overheating. I was told it was the head gasket.

Having said that, I know they didn’t use gas or pressure testing equipment. It was their judgment that it was the head gasket and all the evidence pointed to it- intermittent loss of coolant, overheating etc. I replaced the car at the time and kept it not knowing if I’d fix it or not.

Myself and my dad asked my uncle who is a former mechanic to fix the head gasket. He said he would. He looked at the car and determined that it wasn’t the head gasket at all and it was probably just the rad. The rad guy confirmed the old one had a couple of different problems and I replaced it. It kept using a bit of coolant. It started overheating again.

To date, I have changed the old rad bottle, then a whole new rad, a 2 bar cap, a 1.4 bar cap, thermostat & housing, the fan clutch, hoses etc. NCT fees, lots of coolant, 3 months tax, clips/ hoses, new track rod ends, tyres and wishbones and it has now passed the test. Myself and dad have gone halves on over €1,000 to get it going again on the basis that it’s not the head gasket. As far as I’m concerned, the only thing left are the head gasket and water pump that could explain the overheating, right?

I’ve always felt that my uncle was too optimistic at times. I am now having to put between half a litre and a litre of coolant/ water into the rad before I go on any journey. Last week it overheated in traffic and blew off most of the coolant. The hoses were fully 'inflated' and there was no heat coming through the heater. My uncle is adamant it’s not the head gasket, my dad is hysterical about it being the head gasket and wants to scrap the car instead.

What am I supposed to do? Surely having done all the peripherals, the thing to do now is just do the gasket right? It can’t cost all that much more to do the gasket and pump on their own now, right?

Have you checked the little "L" shaped pipe at the back of the head? If its leaking it will drip on to the gear box and drip much further down the car so its hard to spot. I can't remember if this pipe is plastic or metal on that M43 engine.

If your putting in that much coolant into it and the HG is leaking you would have massive running problems (not just over heating) and lots of white smoke. If you don't have lots of white smoke, the 0.5L of coolant must be coming out somewhere else, i'd guess leaking somewhere quite subtle.

I would definitely check the water pump, I don't know if the M43 engine came with a plastic impeller, but it possibly did and would explain your problem. Quite a few BMW's came with plastic impellers. The plastic impeller can start slipping on the shaft of the waterpump. So at high RPM when driving it might be pumping just enough but at idle it isn't.

I would change the waterpump, and new one is about €30, at this stage definitely worth a shot. Its not a massive job either.

El Guapo!

^^ +1

I'd agree with what DublinDilbert said. You've already thrown a grand at the car so far and an extra 30 or 40 quid isnt much extra and it could save you having to scrap it. And its a handy enough job to do yourself.

DublinDilbert

You'll know when you pull out the water-pump if its the problem or not.

But its best to have a new water-pump on hand as sometimes the aluminium casting is brittle, there can be corrosion holding it to the engine block, and it can break when your using the jacking holes in it. After you take out the 3 bolts from the pump, just give it a few small taps with a chisel near where it enters the block. This will try turn it a degree or two and break the seal. Then pop some bolts into the jacking holes and it should come out.

cantdecide

voxpop wrote: »

If there is pressure build up in the coolant hoses - that would point me towards the head gasket tbh...Have you any mayo under the oil cap / expansion tank - any signs of water/oil mixing ? Smokey after the car should have warmed up...water pump is easy. HG can be a pain - most of the cost would be labour - maybe 6 hours

I haven't had any sign of water and oil mixing. I've had all the other symptoms at one stage or another. Any idea what you would pay for the whole job inc labour, kit and skimming the head etc. just so I know the worst case scenario?

DublinDilbert wrote: »

Have you checked the little "L" shaped pipe at the back of the head?...

Had a look. It's metal and there doesn't appear to be any signs of coolant loss here but I'll keep an eye on it.

DublinDilbert wrote: »

...If your putting in that much coolant into it and the HG is leaking you would have massive running problems and lots of white smoke. If you don't have lots of white smoke, the 0.5L of coolant must be coming out somewhere else, i'd guess leaking somewhere quite subtle...

The exhaust always looks a little misty but nothing serious and it's running exceptionally well for a 200K car. Virtually perfectly, in fact. I keep looking for evidence of coolant loss but I keep coming up with nothing.

DublinDilbert wrote: »

...I would definitely check the water pump, I don't know if the M43 engine came with a plastic impeller, but it possibly did and would explain your problem...

Would a dickie water pump cause a chain reaction that would explain the huge cooling system failure/ coolant loss? In other words, if the particular occasion last week was all down to a faulty pump, what about the pressure build-up? Where did the coolant go in that short space of time if it didn't p*** out onto the ground?

Dean09 wrote: »

...You've already thrown a grand at the car so far and an extra 30 or 40 quid isnt much extra and it could save you having to scrap it. And its a handy enough job to do yourself.

I'll do that this week. So it's only a question then of hoping for the best and preparing for the worst, I suppose.

Thanks all.

DublinDilbert

If its running perfect then I would guess there's no way much water is going into the combustion chamber. You would have a good bit of white smoke.

I've seen it before on an alfa where it would over heat at idle causing the coolant to bubble/boil, but when driving it would be just ok. Waterpump impeller was loose on shaft of water pump. I also changed a water pump on a bmw M52 engine, old plastic impeller was completely broken in half and doing no pumping at all.

Get onto motorfactors or GSF, order a new pump and pop it in.

biko

BMW sites recommend that you (if you haven't already) change the pump with plastic impeller to the pump with the metal impeller as it's a question of when, not if, it will fail.

This is what I have http://www.turnermotorsport.com/p-623-m50m52-replacement-water-pump-with-composite-impeller-original-bmw.aspx

http://www.understeer.com/waterpump.shtml
http://www.germanpartsonline.com/bmw-articles/water-pump-replacement-guide-for-bmw-6-cylinder-engines-m50-m52-m52tu-m54-from-1992/

voxpop

DublinDilbert wrote: »

If its running perfect then I would guess there's no way much water is going into the combustion chamber. You would have a good bit of white smoke.

This is true - if the leak is from water jacket into the combustion chamber. But if you have combustion leaking into the jacket then you get a build up of pressure which is probably leading to the coolant leaking from various sections of the system.

If it was the waterpump then you should have symptoms to suggest that - i.e. the water isnt being pumped around so overheat more in traffic/idling rather than on the motorway.

Having said that - the waterpump is cheap enough - so by all means give it a go, it should be replaced if you are going to keep the car anyway.


Price of a HG job - prob depends on whos doing it - id budget 500 anyways. Worse case - head is cracked, so new head. Not sure if the block on the M43 is prone to warping ??

cantdecide

DublinDilbert wrote: »

...Get onto motorfactors or GSF, order a new pump and pop it in...

Right you are.

DublinDilbert wrote: »

...I've seen it before on an alfa where it would over heat at idle causing the coolant to bubble/boil...

DublinDilbert wrote: »

If its running perfect then I would guess there's no way much water is going into the combustion chamber...

Just so I definitely have a handle on what you're saying... is there a level of coolant oozing into the engine that's acceptable? I always thought HG issues were black and white?

Are you saying it's maybe a smaller HG problem being exacerbated by a troublesome pump and if it is, there's a good chance it could mean just topping the level off every so often and that's that?

DublinDilbert

cantdecide wrote: »

Right you are.





Just so I definitely have a handle on what you're saying... is there a level of coolant oozing into the engine that's acceptable? I always thought HG issues were black and white?

Are you saying it's maybe a smaller HG problem being exacerbated by a troublesome pump and if it is, there's a good chance it could mean just topping the level off every so often and that's that?

What i'm saying is if there was water getting into the combustion chamber you would probably have far bigger issues than just over heating in traffic the odd time.

dnme

Did ya ever consider just getting rid of it? Isn't life a bit too short?

jimmyw

It does sound like the HG, but why didn't anyone do the sniff test to check for sure.I think that would be the first port of call.

DublinDilbert

jimmyw wrote: »

It does sound like the HG, but why didn't anyone do the sniff test to check for sure.I think that would be the first port of call.

I've never found the sniff tests to be very accurate. Had a mechanic do a sniff test in front of me on a 3 series that was loosing coolant, it said the head was gone. He wanted to take the head off. I found a water leak at the rear of the block, fixed that and drove it for 2 more years, didn't loose a drop of coolant.

voxpop

DublinDilbert wrote: »

I've never found the sniff tests to be very accurate. Had a mechanic do a sniff test in front of me on a 3 series that was loosing coolant, it said the head was gone. He wanted to take the head off. I found a water leak at the rear of the block, fixed that and drove it for 2 more years, didn't loose a drop of coolant.

Agree with the above - although a false positive is strange. Even a compression test can inconclusive.

Unfortunately the OP will need to decide whether to keep chasing his tail or just cut his looses. I would do the water pump as suggested and if you are still having problems and cant find any leaks, the HG would be the next chap to look at.
Overly pressurised hoses - to me - suggests HG - on a 316 its probably not worth doing, unless you and your uncle/da are gonna take it on as a project.

cantdecide

dnme wrote: »

Did ya ever consider just getting rid of it? Isn't life a bit too short?

voxpop wrote: »

...Unfortunately the OP will need to decide whether to keep chasing his tail or just cut his looses...on a 316 its probably not worth doing, unless you and your uncle/da are gonna take it on as a project.

I've already been turned down for loans for respectable cars. Yay, construction! The recession has parted me from one or two decent cars by way of not having time or money to keep a decent daily on the road. I would have killed for a spare car to get me out of a hole those times.

The 316 was off the road untouched for six months and nearly saw the scrapyard several times. It has already turned into a bit of a project and it is a peach besides these problems. It's never going to be a daily driver again, it will be a spare car doing probably a couple of thousand miles a year tops. This is worth it's weight in gold when your daily is 9 years old with 130000 miles on the clock.

TBH, I was always sure it was the HG and if it were down to me, I'd just do it and be done with it. Unfortunately, my dad and my uncle are the worlds greatest optimists and I'll have a fight on my hands if I want to just do it and be done with it.

dnme

but you can get yourself a good car for 1k if you want, who needs a loan

cantdecide

dnme wrote: »

but you can get yourself a good car for 1k if you want, who needs a loan

But what's a "good" car?

First of all, I love cars too much to buy some anonobox. I'm extremely finicky about cars too. I want them to look right and I want them to drive right. Not that I've had anything particularly special but the thought of driving a thumped up €1,000 carina with only one remaining wheel trim and vague steering is a fate worse than death to me, even if it passes the NCT without trouble.

Not that there's any great prestige with my old 316 but like them or loath them, I think the E36 will go down as a classic.

dnme

cantdecide wrote: »

But what's a "good" car?

First of all, I love cars too much to buy some anonobox. I'm extremely finicky about cars too. I want them to look right and I want them to drive right. Not that I've had anything particularly special but the thought of driving a thumped up €1,000 carina with only one remaining wheel trim and vague steering is a fate worse than death to me, even if it passes the NCT without trouble.

Not that there's any great prestige with my old 316 but like them or loath them, I think the E36 will go down as a classic.

Yes of course I totally understand that. But at the moment according to you, you can't afford this and no one is gonna give you a loan so for A-B'ing get yourself a bulletproof 10 year old Japanese runaround, that's what I'm saying.

cantdecide

dnme wrote: »

Yes of course I totally understand that. But at the moment according to you, you can't afford this and no one is gonna give you a loan so for A-B'ing get yourself a bulletproof 10 year old Japanese runaround, that's what I'm saying.

I have a nine yr old 323F 2.0 Sport as my daily that hasn't been good to me so far (€1,000 since Autumn) and it still has a list of it's own. Wheel refurb and a general body tidy up plus it's going to need a cat, a/c recharge, pulley kit, wishbones plus some other sundry items over the course of 2011.

Me and my cars are a never ending story and I've had such bad luck for the last couple of years, I can't bring myself to trust old cars. Not even an uber reliable mazda. I could afford to do the 316 HG on my own but the 'spare car' model only works if I'm going halves with dad.

If he choses to believe that me spending my weekends beating a track up to my uncles door while he pontificates about how it's everything the HG, I'll have nothing but headaches and wallet aches.

DublinDilbert

ok enough procrastinating, try the water pump, it would been changed by now and we'd know if it done the trick We can't wait to find out....

cantdecide

OTTO have a metal fin one for €65 inc VAT. B******s.

Better get it anyway.

voxpop

Try GSF aswell - they are usually cheaper and have decent (some oem) parts

DublinDilbert

Yea try Gsf, I got one for an m52 engine for €40. make sure the o-ring is in the box too. Some blue silicone is good for allowing the o-ring seat correctly...

Nissan doctor

If you have the car diagnosed by someone with the correct equipment and knowalage then there will be no guesswork as to what the problem is.


First: Cooling system pressure test, To confirm the cooling system leak.

Second: Cylinder leakdown test, To test for pressure loss from a particular cylinder

Third: Combustion leak test(sniff test), To confirm combustion leak into cooling system. If used correctly, the sniff test can be used to confirm which cylinder is causing the leak.

no1beemerfan

dnme wrote: »

Did ya ever consider just getting rid of it? Isn't life a bit too short?

You serious??!! Its what owning an older car is all about! Who wants a boring car that never gives trouble


Try the water pump and take it from there. If it was the head gasket and it was loosing that much coolant you'd know if you had white smoke out the exhaust or not.

cantdecide

DublinDilbert wrote: »

...Have you checked the little "L" shaped pipe at the back of the head...

Car's been idle since the start of the thread but took it for a spin yesterday. Lo and behold, when I came back, I checked under the car and there was puddle under the back of the engine and coolant was piddling from the L-shaped pipe. I owe you a pint.

Do these little pipes simply split? It looks like pain to change. Do I need to get O-rings or anything of that nature?

DublinDilbert

Yea they do split. They are cheap enough to buy, around a tenner. New one should have an oring on it to seal to the block.

On the e36 they use jublie clips from memory, so no other o rings. On the e46 it's best to replace the o ring in the pipe too.

You should be able to pull out the pollen filter and housing to get better access to the back of the block.

AzureAuto

What Id do is a sniff test initially, if solution does change colour then follow that up with a cylinder leak down test.
Remove spark plugs from each cylinder and pump compressed air into each, whilst monitoring the expansion tank for bubbles in the coolant. If there are, then its def head gasket or worse case scenario a crac int he engine. Either way, the cylnder head would have to be removed.
Replace water pump as a matter of course.