MAINTENANCE

rambutman

I'm in the middle of trying to sort out maintenance with my ex. We have two children (4 and 6). She does not work. I'm offering her 2500 pm at the moment and cannot physically afford any more. I am walking away from the relationship with considerable debts and do not have a huge salary. Our solicitors are proposing collaborative solution of settlement. This could cost in the region of 5000, in which case what I can afford to give my ex will be less. My thinking is that if she is not prepared to accept this much now, she's not likely to accept a couple of hundred euros a month less just because there's a couple of lawyers going through it. If I make her this offer and she declines. Her next step is to try and take me to court for a maintenance order. Given the maximum amount that can be awarded is 3200 for two children and wife (150 per week per child and 500 per week for wife), she's unlikely in court to be awarded anymore than I'm giving her - probably less. If she takes me to court for maintenance order considering im already giving her money and have offered her a reasonable amount, so am not refusing the pay maintenance, just not as much as she wants - who pays for the court costs and what are they likely to be

Moonbeam

You will be means tested she may get free legal aid based on her current income and you will probably need to cover your own costs.
2500pm is an awful lot of maintenance for 1 person and 2 kids and would be similar to earning around 45k a year.
Remember to get access sorted to if you are going the legal route.
Good Luck

metrovelvet

The thing is no one knows the breakdown of what the maintenance is for... childcare? Private school? Mortgage? etc. Is this your total payout a month?

Maintenance covers everything- upkeep, roof over their heads, education, everything.

Its seems like a lot to me too, but I, like everyone else is in the dark about it all.

Legal costs could get expensive. If you end up in the circuit court, the only court that can order a disclosure of transparency you are going to have to hire a barrister as well as a solicitor.

Have you asked her about mediation?

rambutman

2500 is to cover her rent, food, bills, creche fees. Everything basically.

Her rent is 1200 pm.

Household bills in the region of 200 pm - TV and broadband, ESB and gas.

Creche fees for my 4 year old are 180 pm however come September she will be in school.

They are the costs. I'm walking away from the relationship with considerable debts - in the region of 25000 euro. My take home salary is about 5,000 per month. With this 5,000 i'm going to have to chip away at my debts and cover her maintenance.

She seems open to mediation (is this actually free?) but our solicitors are pushing us towards the collaborative route. Their fees are about 400 euro/hour between the two of them and the collaborative process can take several sessions of a couple of hours.

metrovelvet

The solicitors are going to push you because there is money in it for them. Family law benefits them, no one else.

Mediation is free if you use the government mediation service but there might be a bit of a waiting list. There are private ones you can use too with less of a waiting list. You can then formalise the agreement through the lawyers if you want and you can go back to the mediators if circumstances change.

If your wife is working her income has to be considered too. Creches are very expensive but even in junior infants after school care has to be looked at too.

No one here can really tell you what is fair here and what isnt becuase the law says she is also entitled to alimony even outside of the costs of childcare and then it gets very complicated.

But if she is open to mediation I would strongly consider that because you are working together towards a solution rather than years of solicitor letters going back and forth and who have no interest resolving the conflict because the longer it goes on the more money is in it for them and the less there is for your kids.

James Jones

rambutman wrote: »

Our solicitors are proposing collaborative solution of settlement. This could cost in the region of 5000, in which case what I can afford to give my ex will be less.

Not only will it mean less money for the kids but, if unsucessful, you will both have to hire new solicitors for the Court case. See HERE

if either of the parties to a dispute decides to discontinue the process, or it is not possible to continue for other reasons, both lawyers must withdraw from the process and both parties can then engage new lawyers to go to Court on their behalf.

rambutman wrote: »

If I make her this offer and she declines. Her next step is to try and take me to court for a maintenance order. Given the maximum amount that can be awarded is 3200 for two children and wife (150 per week per child and 500 per week for wife), she's unlikely in court to be awarded anymore than I'm giving her - probably less.

You are relying on her not appealing the decision to the Circuit Court, where there is NO LIMIT!!!

At present, the District Court may award any amount up to €500.00 per week for a spouse and €150.00 per week for each child. If greater amounts are sought, it is necessary to apply to the Circuit Court.

rambutman wrote: »

If she takes me to court for maintenance order considering im already giving her money and have offered her a reasonable amount, so am not refusing the pay maintenance, just not as much as she wants - who pays for the court costs and what are they likely to be.

In general, both side are required to pay their own costs. You should have received a Section 68 letter from your own solicitor outlining your own costs.

James Jones

PS: Only after noticing this

rambutman wrote: »

I'm in the middle of trying to sort out maintenance with my ex. We have two children (4 and 6). She does not work.

Why the Creche fees of €180 per month?

RedXIV

James Jones wrote: »

PS: Only after noticing this

Why the Creche fees of €180 per month?

I was wondering that too?

metrovelvet

I would imagine the child is in the free pre school in the morning and that afternoons have to be supplemented, assuming the mother is working too.

James Jones

Another thing is that she would be entitled to Legal Aid if she is not working and so the costs of the collaborative route should be €200 per hour rather than €400.

RedXIV

metrovelvet wrote: »

I would imagine the child is in the free pre school in the morning and that afternoons have to be supplemented, assuming the mother is working too.

rambutman wrote: »

She does not work.

OP said she doesn't.

metrovelvet

Ok I missed that. Sorry.

rambutman

the child is in the creche for getting out of the house and socialising with other kids. The 180 is supplementary to the free care

metrovelvet

^ Without wanting to get too pedantic here, but pedantic is what is going to happen when this goes through the process- the child does get free pre school for three hours a day.

When I had my son in creche for a couple of mornings a week for the same reason, socialising, and having a relationship with people other than me, my son decided that he wanted to eat lunch there too so he sat himself down and started munching away and so I had to supplement the initial money I was willing to pay. And I did it so that he developed a sense of communal eating as its usually just me and him.

And if he were in there for five days a week the supplement would cost me in my creche about 25 a week. Plus I would have to cover the weeks that are official school holidays because the HSE doesnt cover those weeks in this programme but the creche still makes you pay.

Is that what your wife is doing?

RedXIV

Regardless, I'd proceed as outlined above by Metrovelvet.

If you can reach an agreement without lawyers, it'll be better (and cheaper) in the long run!

rambutman

metrovelvet wrote: »

^ Without wanting to get too pedantic here, but pedantic is what is going to happen when this goes through the process- the child does get free pre school for three hours a day.

When I had my son in creche for a couple of mornings a week for the same reason, socialising, and having a relationship with people other than me, my son decided that he wanted to eat lunch there too so he sat himself down and started munching away and so I had to supplement the initial money I was willing to pay. And I did it so that he developed a sense of communal eating as its usually just me and him.

And if he were in there for five days a week the supplement would cost me in my creche about 25 a week. Plus I would have to cover the weeks that are official school holidays because the HSE doesnt cover those weeks in this programme but the creche still makes you pay.

Is that what your wife is doing?

Yep thats what my wife is doing -however is our case the supplement is 45 euros per week.

Kildrought

Ok, you've a few things mixed up together here so trying to separate things out.

I'm in the middle of trying to sort out maintenance with my ex. We have two children (4 and 6).

Child maintenance is just one part of this, are agreed access arrangements in place?

She does not work.

In this case, you can pay (and may be obliged to pay) spousal maintenance. The good thing however is that spousal maintenance is tax deductible for you where child maintenance is not.

I'm offering her 2500 pm at the moment

Is this for child or spousal maintenance? If child maintenance then its for your children, so it's not an 'offer' to your former wife. This may seem like semantics, but its worth separating this.

Our solicitors are proposing collaborative solution of settlement. This could cost in the region of 5000,

Cnsiderably cheaper than a long drawn out battle. Settlement issues will include the family home, pension, inheritance rights, access arrangements etc., etc., so it's not just maintenance that will be discussed.

in which case what I can afford to give my ex will be less.

Legal costs are not deductible from child or spousal maintenance.

My thinking is that if she is not prepared to accept this much now, she's not likely to accept a couple of hundred euros a month less just because there's a couple of lawyers going through it. If I make her this offer and she declines. Her next step is to try and take me to court for a maintenance order.

Again, you are getting several things mixed up here; it's unlikely that a court date will be requested for just maintenance, there are a lot of issues you need to resolve, maintenance is only one of them.

Given the maximum amount .... 150 per week per child and 500 per week for wife...

This is the maximum that can be awarded in a District Court, higher amounts can be awarded in Circuit Court which is where JS/Divorce Proceedings are heard.

If she takes me to court ...... who pays for the court costs and what are they likely to be

Again its unlikely (though not impossible) you'll be in court for just one issue at this time. Legal costs are paid by each party.

James Jones

metrovelvet wrote: »

pedantic is what is going to happen when this goes through the process

You need to have another look at your figures. €45 a week for Creche is not €180 per month but €195. (€45 x 52÷12, not x4)
Your offer of €2500 per month is not €625 per week but only €577.
Be careful how you present your figures as you might end up offering more than you can afford or thinking that you are offering more than you are.

rambutman

Access agreements are not in place however access is being granted at the moment during the days at the weekends.

The 2500 was for child AND spousal maintenance.

There is no family home, no pension, no savings. I have 1 car worth about 2000 euros and she has 1 car worth about 2000 euros.

metrovelvet

You need to make a clear distinction of what is spousal and what is child or you will be paying out the same amount until your wifes death. Child maintenance stops at 18 or when they finish full time education.

I know someone who paid E900 pm for four kids and a wife and never made the distinction in the legal settlement [his lawyers must be retarded is all I can say about that] and still pays the E900 a month even thought the kids have all left the nest.

rambutman

You need to make a clear distinction of what is spousal and what is child or you will be paying out the same amount until your wifes death. Child maintenance stops at 18 or when they finish full time education.

Good point. I had not considered this.

metrovelvet

I have come across so many incompetent lawyers I really urge you both to go down the mediation route.

James Jones

metrovelvet wrote: »

I know someone who paid E900 pm for four kids and a wife and never made the distinction in the legal settlement [his lawyers must be retarded is all I can say about that] and still pays the E900 a month even thought the kids have all left the nest.

The anomaly is that he would have been getting tax relief on the entire amount whereas he would not have done had it had been declared for the children.
Also, there is nothing to stop him returning to Court to have the amount changed now that the circumstances have changed.

metrovelvet

James Jones wrote: »

The anomaly is that he would have been getting tax relief on the entire amount whereas he would not have done had it had been declared for the children.
Also, there is nothing to stop him returning to Court to have the amount changed now that the circumstances have changed.

Yeah. He doesnt want to rock the boat. His kids already hate him enough as it is.

James Jones

Well, if they hate him now and they’re all adults, I don’t think he has anything more to lose other than the weekly money that he could have for himself.

Kildrought

I take it therefore the home they are living in is rented? That would be added to the total maintenance requirement.

You'll need to do up an affidavit of means and welfare in any event. Maintenance is based on both parties income & expenditure. There's a spread sheet on www.solo.ie though it's a little out of date, it's a good start.

If there are no other assets then your bargaining chips are very much limited and as you've correctly surmised the settlement issues will be all about maintenance.

However you should also consider working on a parenting plan with your former wife if you can.

rambutman

Kildrought wrote: »

I take it therefore the home they are living in is rented? That would be added to the total maintenance requirement.

You'll need to do up an affidavit of means and welfare in any event. Maintenance is based on both parties income & expenditure. There's a spread sheet on www.solo.ie though it's a little out of date, it's a good start.

If there are no other assets then your bargaining chips are very much limited and as you've correctly surmised the settlement issues will be all about maintenance.

However you should also consider working on a parenting plan with your former wife if you can.

thanks for that. Yep home is rented. Rent is detailed above (1200 pm).

Stheno

rambutman wrote: »

thanks for that. Yep home is rented. Rent is detailed above (1200 pm).

OP you seem to be taking the approach that you will cover your wifes expenses in total.

She will probably be eligible for One Parent Family Allowance, plus rent allowance etc if she chooses not to go back to work, so you need to consider that as her income and then factor in maintenance.

I'd definitely recommend mediation, I used it and it was great, and the mediated agreement formed the basis of a seperation agreement, there were no children involved so there were no access issues.

Also on a very small but important enough point, if you are currently jointly assessed for tax, and you benefit due to her not working, then you can actually keep that arrangement where you get the extra credits if she agrees after seperation/divorce. It's a few hundred euro a month extra which may help.

James Jones

Stheno wrote: »

OP you seem to be taking the approach that you will cover your wifes expenses in total.

She will probably be eligible for One Parent Family Allowance, plus rent allowance etc if she chooses not to go back to work, so you need to consider that as her income and then factor in maintenance.

Don't think so if he's paying her €2,500 a month!

rambutman

Thanks for the comments

I've spent the night awake thinking about this stuff, and considering my own financial situation.

Based upon comments above I think I need to be a bit more realistic, sit down and go through her living costs and mine and come up with (with the aid of someone) else a more realistic and detailed maintenance plan, based more on what I can actually afford. With if necessary the difference being made up on her side by LPA.

Kildrought

The one thing I would advise you is to start with a Parenting Plan first, how your children are to be raised by you both is far more important than the money.

Get that agreed between you and life will be a lot easier for everyone, trust me.

saanco

hi,
i am unmarried father of three kids , i am student and i cant affort 200 /w maintenance by court order, now my ex has called me in court next week to sort out arears of 2600 euro. which is very difficult for me to pay. i earn upto 400/w , my ex is working full time as well. can i vary the maintenca order or do i have to pay this . or if i cant manage to pay , will i be jailed or in what circumstanc i can be sentenced, please any body give me any suggestion what can i do .? thanks
my main expenses are , rent 100 /w
car loan :110 /w
food :100/w
edu :50/w
total min :360/w

Kildrought

I found your post difficult to read.

However if you cannot afford the previously ordered Maintenance, then you request a variation order. Document your income and outgoings.

hawkwind23

why would you be concerned about paying your ex wife anything.
you pay maintenance for your children not your ex.
shes a big girl so she can look after herself , if she cant afford the rent or basic living expenses then i would suggest applying to care for the children yourself.
dont be a bit soft in this situation , if you take this to court you fight to win so i would also recommend mediation.
plus the system will just take all your money and stress you out , its fair to say the system is unjust.

forget about all this money thing , fight to try and get 50/50 shared parenting first.

you had your kids to raise them and enjoy them , not be some mcdad who finances his ex to do that.

hawkwind23

i have a few links open so maybe of value to share them.

this is a documentary by bob geldof ,

http://www.parents4protest.co.uk/bob_geldof.htm

he also has a written essay on the subject which can be sourced online.
its called the love that dare not says it name.

a book i think every parent should read is by dr warshak called divorce poison.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Divorce-Poison-Protect-Badmouthing-Brainwashing/dp/0061863262/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1299224584&sr=8-1


the following may not be relevant to your situation , however i think they should be given a few minutes time , in modern times these are more and more common occurances.

http://savanah-jade.org/

http://www.relocationcampaign.co.uk/4.html

http://www.fnf.org.uk/

http://www.fnfni.org/

Morag

why would you be concerned about paying your ex wife anything.

Because legally he has to, it's called spousal maintence.

January

hawkwind23 wrote: »

i have a few links open so maybe of value to share them.

this is a documentary by bob geldof ,

http://www.parents4protest.co.uk/bob_geldof.htm

he also has a written essay on the subject which can be sourced online.
its called the love that dare not says it name.

a book i think every parent should read is by dr warshak called divorce poison.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Divorce-Poison-Protect-Badmouthing-Brainwashing/dp/0061863262/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1299224584&sr=8-1


the following may not be relevant to your situation , however i think they should be given a few minutes time , in modern times these are more and more common occurances.

http://savanah-jade.org/

http://www.relocationcampaign.co.uk/4.html

http://www.fnf.org.uk/

http://www.fnfni.org/

Those are all links for the UK and are irrelevant to Irish laws.

Also, if the wife was a stay at home parent while the father worked to support the family, he has to continue doing this if the relationship ends. As Sharrow said, it's called spousal maintenance.

hawkwind23

i dont mean to mislead , i am unaware of the laws in southern ireland.

the links i gave are relevant wherever you reside.

i guess the general point is that the laws are outdated and ine case of this spousal maintenance pretty ridiculous imo of course