Should the government draft in "experts" to senior positions or as advisors?

mike65

Its been mentioned before and other countires do this as a matter of course, would the next gubberment be wise to draft in some people who actually have practical experience in certian areas like finance, industry and health?

One candidate (not that he'd do it) would be Gerry Robinson (ex Grand Metropolitian/Granada TV) who has looked at the running of the NHS in Britain. Another would be Shane Ross who's brain must be worth picking if only they'd (the senior civil service) would actually be willing to listen.

DailyBlaa

This is what senior civil services positions are for. These offices have been polluted over the years by poor appointments.

Madd Finn

It IS possible to appoint an expert to the cabinet without him or her having to go through the tiresome process of being elected. The Taoiseach could nominate them to the Senate and then appoint them to the cabinet from there.

I understand that it is restricted though. A maximum of two senators can be in the cabinet at any one time. Also, I believe certain posts are constitutionally prevented from being filled by Senators, such as Taoiseach and Minister for Finance.

In practice though this hardly ever happens. Garret appointed Jim Dooge as Foreign Minister in 1981 from the Senate. Don't think it's happened since.

Something worth bearing in mind if we go for the knee jerk reaction of shutting down the Senate to save money.

Bullseye1

I would say yes. Remove the senior civil servants who are not up to the task. Appoint some highly thought of people from the private sector on a rolling contract and pay them the going rate.

seanmc1980

it's a good idea in theory but i really can only see there appointments leading to a Profit before people situation in area such as health. also vested interest are a huge problem in contract approvals in the US, and with Irish people's natural aversion towards ripping each other off, it would again lead to profit before people situations.
I would be more in favour of the reform of senior civil servant position with an emphasis on appointment of capable people from outside the public sector as opposed to the current in house promotion policy in the civil service

mikemac

The Secretary General of a civil service department has decades of experience and should know everything in their department.

If they don't, how did they get there?

Thedogsgone

This happens already.

Most ministers employ a number of personal appointees in advisory roles. Generally they are party hacks but there is no reason that they could not employ experts in any field they wish.

tails_naf

DailyBlaa wrote: »

This is what senior civil services positions are for. These offices have been polluted over the years by poor appointments.

Except these jobs should be up for review regularly and maybe even change with the new govt, at each GE. New blood is needed in probably all senior civil servant positions, and preferably from outside the system.

Balmed Out

I know m martin was banging on about this but what do fg have to say on the issue?
Think its a great idea but party's have a jobs for the boys attitude and cant see them giving up many cabinet positions with the publicity, power, pay and pensions that come with them.

bamboozle

feelingstressed wrote: »

The Secretary General of a civil service department has decades of experience and should know everything in their department.

If they don't, how did they get there?

is the answer not in your question, they got in there as a result of years of service and promotions being based on time served and not on ability, hence the likes of the incompetent Pat Neary being appointed financial regulator after 30 years in the civil service, he might have had years served but he had zero professional qualifications or ability which were required for the role & this has happened in so many other cases Roddy Molloy et al.

bamboozle

Balmed Out wrote: »

I know m martin was banging on about this but what do fg have to say on the issue?
Think its a great idea but party's have a jobs for the boys attitude and cant see them giving up many cabinet positions with the publicity, power, pay and pensions that come with them.

well in his 14 years in govt why didnt Martin implement this?

himself and his cronies were far more focused on appointing their supporters, family & mates to state boards etc.

Earthhorse

As has been said already, the civil service should already be doing this job, at least in part, and governments already consult with countless experts and committees on any range of issues. Would appointing high profile people to senior positions or as ministers be any different to this? I don't see how it would be. More than likely it would be more of the same; politicians appointing their pals and no clear line of responsibility when it comes to the crunch.

who the fug

mike65 wrote: »

Its been mentioned before and other countires do this as a matter of course, would the next gubberment be wise to draft in some people who actually have practical experience in certian areas like finance, industry and health?

One candidate (not that he'd do it) would be Gerry Robinson (ex Grand Metropolitian/Granada TV) who has looked at the running of the NHS in Britain. Another would be Shane Ross who's brain must be worth picking if only they'd (the senior civil service) would actually be willing to listen.

Gerry Robinson

yeah right, how long did his creation last, and I don't think anyone needs an advisor on the race to the bottom

Sierra Oscar

Each cabinet minister can choose his or her own special advisor, so specific experts can be drafted in this way - but the likelihood is that FG/Labour will appoint prominent members of their respective parties as special advisor's.

Uncle Ben

Bullseye1 wrote: »

I would say yes. Remove the senior civil servants who are not up to the task. Appoint some highly thought of people from the private sector on a rolling contract and pay them the going rate.

Like Seanie Fitz, David Drumm, and all those high-fliers in the Celtic Tiger Era that are now rightly discredited. Yes bring in the bright lights who are highly thought off now and we can worry about the consequences later.

hatrickpatrick

Uh... Democracy, anyone?

Seriously, why should anyone be given a powerful government post without the people being asked whether or not they approve of his or her policies?

Bullseye1

Uncle Ben wrote: »

Like Seanie Fitz, David Drumm, and all those high-fliers in the Celtic Tiger Era that are now rightly discredited. Yes bring in the bright lights who are highly thought off now and we can worry about the consequences later.

How about all those no name high ranking civil servants in the Department of Finance who provided the advice that lowering income tax and relying on stamp duty was a good idea? These guys are still in there you know and unlikely to be sacked for incompetence.

At least if someone is drafted in from the private sector on a rolling contract it's transparent. He/she is assessed at the end of a 12 month period and given an addititional 12 months if positive or let go if not.

Bullseye1

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

Uh... Democracy, anyone?

Seriously, why should anyone be given a powerful government post without the people being asked whether or not they approve of his or her policies?

When was the last time a high ranking civil servant (who earn 2 to 3 times that of the leader of the country) elected?

Pepe LeFrits

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

Uh... Democracy, anyone?

Seriously, why should anyone be given a powerful government post without the people being asked whether or not they approve of his or her policies?

The people don't get to choose the Taoiseach...

hatrickpatrick

Bullseye1 wrote: »

When was the last time a high ranking civil servant (who earn 2 to 3 times that of the leader of the country) elected?

You don't. And I find that utterly repulsive. We're supposed to be a democracy. The people decide what the government will do. No one else.

Dionysus

Bullseye1 wrote: »

I would say yes. Remove the senior civil servants who are not up to the task. Appoint some highly thought of people from the private sector on a rolling contract and pay them the going rate.

Yes, I recommend Merrill Lynch, whose record as private advisors to the Irish state is impeccable, especially in September 2008.

Privatise everything! How else, after all, will Fine Gael repay all those corporate donations to the Fine Gael party, other than by using our taxes to give contracts out to Fine Gael supporters in the private sector.

Bullseye1

I agree. In the US a high level civil servant is interviewed in public by electected Senators. We should adopt a similar policy.

Uncle Ben

Bullseye1 wrote: »

How about all those no name high ranking civil servants in the Department of Finance who provided the advice that lowering income tax and relying on stamp duty was a good idea? These guys are still in there you know and unlikely to be sacked for incompetence.

At least if someone is drafted in from the private sector on a rolling contract it's transparent. He/she is assessed at the end of a 12 month period and given an addititional 12 months if positive or let go if not.

So in your scenario we give Seanie Fitz, David Drumm etc etc for the 10 years of the Celtic Tiger, year on year rolling contracts and then sack them when they fcuk up. And as for assessments would we ask the ESRI, the EU the OECD, Merrill Lynch or would we believe Morgan Kelly or McWilliams? The cs advisors are still there and should be sacked or imprisoned if warranted, however it is the Govt. that ultimately decides and as long as we continue to elect along family lines, tribal issues and pander to all lobby groups be they TU, business, farming or finance this country will always be a backwater. Bringing in private interests will only make matters worse.

Bullseye1

So we leave those incompetent people in their posts and forget about it.

Uncle Ben

I've already said sack them or imprison them if any ill has been found, but replacing people from the outside on fixed term contracts wont help. Select proper people on proper salaries with permanent jobs if required plus evaluations and hold them accountable under the law. Simple. Legislation has been adopted to hold H&S officers responsible for serious breaches and it can lead to imprisonment. Do the same with top CS.

Bullseye1

But why do they need to be permanent? Aren't County Managers on 4-5 year contracts?

Uncle Ben

I put it as an option. I am not doing a job spec but to give an example Alex Ferguson and Wenger are perhaps the longest and most successful in Britain. A team that constantly changes its manager may hit the high spots on occassions but not consistently. And as I previously stated evaluate them continuously.

P. Breathnach

Bullseye1 wrote: »

How about all those no name high ranking civil servants in the Department of Finance who provided the advice that lowering income tax and relying on stamp duty was a good idea? These guys are still in there you know and unlikely to be sacked for incompetence....

Ten years ago the Department of Finance was telling the Minister just the opposite thing. The advice was not heeded. Now, having advised against policy decisions that were made, they are being blamed for those decisions by anonymous posters on internet forums.

InReality

Uncle Ben wrote: »

I've already said sack them or imprison them if any ill has been found, but replacing people from the outside on fixed term contracts wont help. Select proper people on proper salaries with permanent jobs if required plus evaluations and hold them accountable under the law. Simple. Legislation has been adopted to hold H&S officers responsible for serious breaches and it can lead to imprisonment. Do the same with top CS.

what are h&s officers ?

Uncle Ben

Health and safety officers in factories, business etc.