Difficulties in finding workers!

cormie

Hi,
I'm considering delegating some of the work load off of my own back but due to the nature of my business and "The System", it's not so straight forward.

Basically there is no defined working hours and no set amount of work per week, it would basically be just as it comes. There wouldn't be enough work at all to justify "employing" somebody so it would have to be done on a contracted basis. To the best of my knowledge, somebody "self employed" doing contract work in such a way, would lose their entitlements to social welfare. Also, as far as I know, there is a 2 day employment allowance and you can still get some money if you only have 2 days work a week, but again, if it was to be done legit and I was to use somebody who is currently on social welfare, it would put their entitlements at risk so without being able to guarantee a certain amount of work per week I think it would be quite difficult to find somebody. It could only be 2 hours work a day but could be 3 days in a week, a total of 6 hours work that week. The next week could be 5 days and 60 hours work so it's really all over the place.

What would be the best way to approach this that would take into consideration the interests of myself, the worker and the system?

Any feedback appreciated

P.S. Candidate must also be fit, strong, preferably non drinker and smoker, responsible, clean full drivers license and a Tetris expert for stacking boxes etc for transport safely

karlitob

cormie wrote: »

Hi,
I'm considering delegating some of the work load off of my own back but due to the nature of my business and "The System", it's not so straight forward.

Basically there is no defined working hours and no set amount of work per week, it would basically be just as it comes. There wouldn't be enough work at all to justify "employing" somebody so it would have to be done on a contracted basis. To the best of my knowledge, somebody "self employed" doing contract work in such a way, would lose their entitlements to social welfare. Also, as far as I know, there is a 2 day employment allowance and you can still get some money if you only have 2 days work a week, but again, if it was to be done legit and I was to use somebody who is currently on social welfare, it would put their entitlements at risk so without being able to guarantee a certain amount of work per week I think it would be quite difficult to find somebody. It could only be 2 hours work a day but could be 3 days in a week, a total of 6 hours work that week. The next week could be 5 days and 60 hours work so it's really all over the place.

What would be the best way to approach this that would take into consideration the interests of myself, the worker and the system?

Any feedback appreciated

P.S. Candidate must also be fit, strong, preferably non drinker and smoker, responsible, clean full drivers license and a Tetris expert for stacking boxes etc for transport safely

There are a few options
Cash in hand - illegal of course but the main thing is that there may be an issue with insurance and liability if the work is manual.
Other than that I think people on a back to work scheme can work 20 hours a week and still keep all benefits. Perhaps there's a way for that to be averaged over 1 month if they do have 60 hours in one week and nothing in another. Dept of Social Protection and FAS will help you in this.

Best of luck - fair play to you for considering people like that. The only other option I see is self employed and thats it
From the sounds of it - cash in hand seems to be the best way. There is the issue of insurance and liability for you too.

micdug

karlitob wrote: »

There are a few options
Cash in hand - illegal of course but the main thing is that there may be an issue with insurance and liability if the work is manual.
Other than that I think people on a back to work scheme can work 20 hours a week and still keep all benefits. Perhaps there's a way for that to be averaged over 1 month if they do have 60 hours in one week and nothing in another. Dept of Social Protection and FAS will help you in this.

Best of luck - fair play to you for considering people like that. The only other option I see is self employed and thats it
From the sounds of it - cash in hand seems to be the best way. There is the issue of insurance and liability for you too.

Unbelieveable advice It's illegal for a reason that even the OP points outhhh. And yes, there are big issues for insurance, liability etc

The "System" sounds dubious (this isn't another pyramid scheme?). Whats in it for the employee with such random hours?

micdug

micdug wrote: »

Unbelieveable advice It's illegal for a reason that even the OP points outhhh. And yes, there are big issues for insurance, liability etc

The "System" sounds dubious (this isn't another pyramid scheme?). Whats in it for the employee with such random hours?

Money and the Self Esteem of having a job albeit small hours

Victor

There is a scheme in social welfare dealing with people who are casually employed. The employer simply fills out a time sheet for them. There generally isn't a problem if you are employing them up to about 20 hours / 3 days per week. After that, they may lose the entire week's benefits, but would get a full week's benefits the next week if they didn't have work.

cormie

Thanks for the replies! I haven't got long to write this reply but will just say that I want to keep it legit which is why I'm looking for suggestion on the best way to go about it. The incentive for the worker should be to get more money than the social welfare gives and to get out working. The problem is as I described, only giving some work which may put their whole social entitlement at risk.

Victor, thanks for the suggestion, but I'd really prefer to stay away from "employment" at the moment as it would involve a lot more paperwork and cause other problems, especially when I don't have enough work to warrant "employing" somebody as opposed to just getting somebody for a few odd hours here and there. Micdug, I'm not sure what you mean by a pyramid scheme? The System I was referring to was the Irish social and employment system, it doesn't seem so favourable to people wanting to start earning money themselves and also appears to be quite generous in that it often works out that people will earn more staying on social welfare than actually getting a job.

I'd like to contract somebody legitimately while still enabling them to get their social entitlement for the weeks I have no work for them. Other weeks they may earn 2-3 times what they would on social welfare.

What are the "insurance" implications mentioned? If I have public liability and am fully insured for the work I currently do, is this not enough? Would I need "employers liability" too or is this only if I "employ" somebody?

Thanks again

wonderfulname

What Victor says is true, and I do believe the onus is on the employee to declare their hours. As far as I am aware this is the only way to hire someone in that manner who is claiming social welfare. You could just find an odd jobs man or a student with few hours and compromise on exactly when these hours would take place. Advertise the job honestly and see who comes to your door.

ssbob

Hi Cormie,

You may know someone who works shift work already and has four free days in a week. I would feel your best bet is to give someone who is already working this workload. Leave them account for their own taxes then.

Where are you based?

Carra23

cormie wrote: »

Thanks for the replies! I haven't got long to write this reply but will just say that I want to keep it legit which is why I'm looking for suggestion on the best way to go about it. The incentive for the worker should be to get more money than the social welfare gives and to get out working. The problem is as I described, only giving some work which may put their whole social entitlement at risk.

Victor, thanks for the suggestion, but I'd really prefer to stay away from "employment" at the moment as it would involve a lot more paperwork and cause other problems, especially when I don't have enough work to warrant "employing" somebody as opposed to just getting somebody for a few odd hours here and there. Micdug, I'm not sure what you mean by a pyramid scheme? The System I was referring to was the Irish social and employment system, it doesn't seem so favourable to people wanting to start earning money themselves and also appears to be quite generous in that it often works out that people will earn more staying on social welfare than actually getting a job.

I'd like to contract somebody legitimately while still enabling them to get their social entitlement for the weeks I have no work for them. Other weeks they may earn 2-3 times what they would on social welfare.

What are the "insurance" implications mentioned? If I have public liability and am fully insured for the work I currently do, is this not enough? Would I need "employers liability" too or is this only if I "employ" somebody?

Thanks again

Where is the work based ? I am working full time so no worries about losing benefits but looking for some casual PT work for some extra cash . PM location if you want

TheCostumeShop.ie: Ronan

Sounds like you might be better off using a temp agency at this stage of the game, as it would work out cheaper for you.

Kinetic^

Hi Cormie, I'm in the same boat as yourself right now. I may have to approach a temp agency as Ronan suggested but it's more on the day reaction stuff rather then scheduled work for us.

cormie

Thanks again for the suggestions everyone.

Interesting about the temp agency, but I'd prefer not to have to deal with any type of agency.

Actually, I know a few friends and such who may be able to help. I've gotten a few PM's with offers which I appreciate, but at the moment I'd be looking to give the work to friends and such.

So for the people I know on shift work who are currently employed, it's just a matter of them invoicing me and for those who are on social welfare, there allowed 20 hours/3 days work a week and still will receive some benefit, but as far as I can tell, I must be their "employer" which I'd prefer not to be as it would involve a lot more complications, and if they were to become a sole trader, they would lose their social entitlements? Seems a bit restrictive in terms of offering a bit of work here and there to people on social welfare..

cormie

ssbob wrote: »

Hi Cormie,

You may know someone who works shift work already and has four free days in a week. I would feel your best bet is to give someone who is already working this workload. Leave them account for their own taxes then.

Where are you based?

Hi again, just looking back over this. How would this work if they were already employed, so probably couldn't be "self employed" then to do contract work for me? So what would happen if I got somebody who did shift work for example, what way would they invoice me? I know all I need is an invoice but what about from their end, what responsibilities do they have to do it legitimately and what should be on their invoice? Simply name, date of work, hours worked and charge?

Any feedback appreciated

ssbob

cormie wrote: »

Hi again, just looking back over this. How would this work if they were already employed, so probably couldn't be "self employed" then to do contract work for me? So what would happen if I got somebody who did shift work for example, what way would they invoice me? I know all I need is an invoice but what about from their end, what responsibilities do they have to do it legitimately and what should be on their invoice? Simply name, date of work, hours worked and charge?

Any feedback appreciated

Hi Cormie,

Even if they are employed by someone else they can still work for themselves aside from this, an example of which is a friend who I do accounts for:

Works 40 hour week in a local co-op and then on evenings and weekends runs his own garden maintenance business, at the end of the year I fill out the Form 15 for him entering details from his P60(from his daytime job) along with the details of his own business as a sole trader and his tax payable is calculated from the overall amount.

They would need to register as a soletrader by filling in Form 11 for the revenue and also register with the CRO(costs €20) and then they will just need to keep a record of their sales and purchases and pay any taxes due at the end of each year.

In terms of an invoice, they will need their name, your name, date, details of service supplied and also amount( VAT if applicable)

Hope this helps, if you need any more info let me know.

cormie

Thanks a lot for that ssbob!

Hmm, so even to do one days work for me, they will still need to register as a sole trader and then be expected to do the other forms and everything? Is it possible to do it another way at all if they only have a day or two work with me in total per year so they don't need to go through all that? Again, legitimately

Like if they were to just give me an invoice and somehow declare that on X date they earned X amount and have invoiced me for same?

ssbob

cormie wrote: »

Thanks a lot for that ssbob!

Hmm, so even to do one days work for me, they will still need to register as a sole trader and then be expected to do the other forms and everything? Is it possible to do it another way at all if they only have a day or two work with me in total per year so they don't need to go through all that? Again, legitimately

Like if they were to just give me an invoice and somehow declare that on X date they earned X amount and have invoiced me for same?

Well if it is going to be that infrequent then I think it is possible to fill in a form quoting income from other sources at the year end. This would be the same form you would fill in for inheritance tax/gift tax/ overseas deposits etc....... but if it was going to be a frequent 1-2 days a month then they would be better off registering, it is literally only 2 forms and it may be more tax beneficial for them.

cormie

Ah that's cool, thanks very much again, just trying to weigh up my options and see what suits best

Alkers

What's the problem with employing someone on a part-time basis with no minimum income per week. E.g I work for the new Aviva stadium but I only get about six hours work every fortnight but I am still an employee with a payslip etc. As far as someone to suit the role, maybe a student or a young person on the lower bracket of social welfare, some of my friends would be 24 and not entitled to any welfare due to their parents income, this situation would be ideal for that kind of job. Whatever way you go about it you shouldn't have too much bother finding a candidate.

ArseBurger

cormie wrote: »

preferably non drinker and smoker

Will you make a decision based upon their smoker and drinker status?

cormie

Simona1986 wrote: »

What's the problem with employing someone on a part-time basis with no minimum income per week. E.g I work for the new Aviva stadium but I only get about six hours work every fortnight but I am still an employee with a payslip etc. As far as someone to suit the role, maybe a student or a young person on the lower bracket of social welfare, some of my friends would be 24 and not entitled to any welfare due to their parents income, this situation would be ideal for that kind of job. Whatever way you go about it you shouldn't have too much bother finding a candidate.

Well I haven't looked much into it at the moment, but I imagine it would create another load of obstacles such as employers liability insurance then being required more accountancy work etc thus increasing my costs for what may be very little work I have to offer and then I'm not sure would there also be a problem if for example one month I had no work at all for them..

ArseBurger wrote: »

Will you make a decision based upon their smoker and drinker status?

Considering fitness is an essential trait for this kind of work and most of my jobs are charged to the customer based on time, the faster the work is done, the happier the customer will be so if somebody needs to stop for smoke breaks, gets out of breath quickly or is hanging or possibly still close to the limit from being out the night before, as I may get a phone call at 20:00 requesting to do a job at 08:00 the next morning, then I believe they wouldn't be as ideal as somebody who didn't smoke or drink.