Election turning into a Missed Opportunity

Duda17

I can not believe what i am seeing in the pre-election polls. If the polls signal the result of tomorrows election i believe the people of ireland will have missed out on a major opportunity for change. The way things are going fine gael could form a single party government. Is this really what the irish people want. The reason we are having this election is because firstly the irish people have become sick and tired of a fianna fail government whose policies are cuts and taxes which target the most vulnerable and doing exactly as the eu says and secondly because they have no confidence in the leader. A fine gael government will give us the exact same. They have the same cuts and taxes policies of fianna fail except they have succeeded in hiding this from us throughout this campaign and a leader who the people have no confidence in and it is easy to see why. His performance in the latest debate was shambolic. He did not answer any questions just had his script and stuck to it. After one week of fine gael in government we will have the exact same problems as we had with fianna fail. I was a fine gael supporter but i have seen the light. They are fianna fail in all but name. We need change real political change. I have no party allegiences but i am becoming disilusioned with the prospect of tomorrows result. What do the people of Ireland want. If it really is change why are they about to vote fine gael into government. That is not change that is a cop out, a missed opportunity. Please the people of ireland i plead of you we need real change. Please re-think who you are about to put in government.

hoorsmelt

I'm afraid you're right. For all the huffing and puffing, people will happily defer to their betters who tell them they need to take pay cuts, shut their schools and hospitals, and emigrate, so that large financial institutions can have their profit margins protected and the likes of Roman Abramovich can have their stock portfolios receive dividends. The only shred of comfort I can glean from this mess is that the growth of SF and the ULA (not just electorally but in terms of the activists joining those groups and helping them) proves that a minority of people have learnt a lesson from this mess, and hopefully others will too when FG come for their pound of flesh (ie firesale privatisations, PS job cuts and water charges).

imme

Why didn you take out an ad in the media OP, it would have reached more people.

I think the people that read Boards already have their minds made up, as to who they are voting for.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

hoorsmelt

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

That's Sinn Féins policies for you. The ULA says that there should be an end to reliance on the bond markets. And that would be entirely possible, given the resources that exist in this country and which haven't been properly used or were expropriated like our farmland and our natural gas. For instance, it would be fairly easy to set up a national sugar industry or to nationalise the Rossport gas and use the gas to help finance the creation of a state-owned industrial base.

The Labour Party serves the interests of the trade unions (as the union leaders themselves made clear earlier this week). That party wants to prolong the period of deficit adjustment until 2016, to make sure that those vested interests are protected as much as possible for as long as possible. This will only lead to more debt and higher taxes down the line.

Labour are not a party of the unions. They supported all the pay-cuts/levies, will reverse none of them, and supported the anti-union Lisbon Treaty.

If you oppose cuts, then please tell us how we can pay for your vision of change and no cuts by borrowing €20 billion a year indefinitely. There is a reason why some of this money is coming from the IMF—also known as the international lender of last resort—and that's because we are insolvent. When the IMF/EU money runs out, we're unlikely to get any more from anyone else unless we can show that we are getting our house in order, and getting that house in order means reversing the excesses of the past decade.

None of this problem would exist if state and private debt were separated and the private debt repudiated. The reason we have a deficit in the first place is because of the economic collapse, so using parts of the Pension Fund or the proceeds of a wealth tax to create sustainable jobs would be the best long term strategy to reduce the deficit as opposed to taking an axe to the public sector and taking even more money out of the economy.

So, quite simply, I'm voting Fine Gael because of the paucity of realistic alternatives. I'm not prepared to support the party that has brought the country to its knees. I'm not prepared either to support a bunch of rag-tag Marxist republicans and Trotskyite socialists who would wreck what remains of the economy within weeks if they ever got their hands on real power.

I don't think Enda Kenny is God's gift—but when you consider the alternatives, the right choice is obvious.

'What's left of the real economy' will be wrecked in a couple of years anyway when we default- nothing FG will do, even cutting the entire public sector and welfar bill by 100% would stop default when one considers most of the IMF/ECB package will be drawn down for the banks and that in any case the economy is continuing to contract. You nailed your colours to the mast in any case when you effectively said in the second line of your piece that you couldn't imagine anyone wanting a government without either FG/IMFF.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Kev_ps3

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

As opposed to the economic policy's of the rich party's who have destroyed this country. The neck on ye is unbelievable.

steve9859

hoorsmelt wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

Thats the most entertaining post I have read all year. You want us to become a nation of fishermen and sugar farmers?!? Where all the people (sorry, workers) left remaining in the country are completely reliant on the money and jobs that our Soviet-style masters choose to hand down to us!!! Brilliant! Screw my job in London. Im in!!

loldog

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

You might recall the leader of the Soviet Union had Trotsky murdered, along with Bukharin, Kirov and anybody else who exhibited any symptoms of sanity. Whatever you think of Trotskyism, it bears no relation to the history of the Soviet Union.

.

johngalway

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

*Rubs chin*, hey, I've heard that someplace before :pac:

johngalway

steve9859 wrote: »

hoorsmelt wrote: »

Thats the most entertaining post I have read all year. You want us to become a nation of fishermen and sugar farmers?!? Where all the people (sorry, workers) left remaining in the country are completely reliant on the money and jobs that our Soviet-style masters choose to hand down to us!!! Brilliant! Screw my job in London. Im in!!

Sorry, I think it's just worthwhile mentioning that the above quote is attributed to the wrong poster in the original Post

(Odd how my quote attributes it to the correct person without changing a thing).

Duda17

I am extremely sceptical of sinn feins policies and where they would leave us as a country. All im saying is everyone said they wanted change before the election and the fact is we are not going to get that with fine gael. After one week people will be giving out about poor leadership and taxes and cuts the same as when fianna fail were in government. There has to be an alternative though.

And i did consider taking out a newspaper ad as i felt i had to say something. That is how strongly i feel that things will be the same as they were before, the country will be effectively bankrupted, and that is not a good place to be and i will probably be forced to emigrate.

Soldie

Kev_ps3 wrote: »

As opposed to the economic policy's of the rich party's who have destroyed this country. The neck on ye is unbelievable.

Have you ever made a post that isn't a sentence-long quip? Rejecting Sinn Féin and the ULA is not the same thing as supporting Fianna Fáil.

themont85

Kev_ps3 wrote: »

As opposed to the economic policy's of the rich party's who have destroyed this country. The neck on ye is unbelievable.

Right this attitude annoys me completely. FF weren't just the 'rich' party, they were they tried to be all things to all men. That in many ways was their problem.

Progressive income tax levels for low income people.
High social welfare benefits.
Buying off Union leaders.
Helping first time buyers purchase.
Low taxes

The fallacy 'that only the rich benefitted' is ridiculous.

dsmythy

Duda17 wrote: »

Is this really what the irish people want.

If they vote for it then I'd say yes, it is what they want.

hoorsmelt

steve9859 wrote: »

hoorsmelt wrote: »

Thats the most entertaining post I have read all year. You want us to become a nation of fishermen and sugar farmers?!? Where all the people (sorry, workers) left remaining in the country are completely reliant on the money and jobs that our Soviet-style masters choose to hand down to us!!! Brilliant! Screw my job in London. Im in!!

Did I say that? No I didn't. What I said was there are different options that could be taken, including resuming sugar farming, that would make the Irish economy more stable and sustainable. If you have a good job fair play to you, there's plenty of people here that don;t and making ourselves more self-reliant (without a return to the 1930's) would be a good way to employ people and create wealth without relying on FDI or the market to do so.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

meglome

Kev_ps3 wrote: »

As opposed to the economic policy's of the rich party's who have destroyed this country. The neck on ye is unbelievable.

As much as Sinn Féin lying about their economic policies annoys me this crap annoys me even more. As others have said we have very high social welfare, a high minimum wage and next to no taxes for the low paid. It's the rich who actually are the ones paying for our services. Maybe if Sinn Féin and their supporters spent less time hating the rich and blaming them for their own problems they might get into a position to effect real change.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

namloc1980

steve9859 wrote: »

Did I say that? No I didn't. What I said was there are different options that could be taken, including resuming sugar farming, that would make the Irish economy more stable and sustainable. If you have a good job fair play to you, there's plenty of people here that don;t and making ourselves more self-reliant (without a return to the 1930's) would be a good way to employ people and create wealth without relying on FDI or the market to do so.

Let's go the whole hog and implement the "Juche Idea". Are you with me comrades?

hoorsmelt

Food prices are rising, there are forecast to be sugar shortages later on this year, inflation is going up as well, and when someone raises the point that maybe we should think about alternatives to relying on imports they get shouted down. Marvelous. If there was a prize for short-sightedness Permabear and Namloc would be joint prize winners. The days of cheap food imports are coming to an end and we need to produce more ourselves, surely that's not such a bad thing no? And Permabear, FDI is continuing to leave this state despite wage cuts so yes, the free market has failed and needs to be replaced. Namloc, if you want to implement Juche you can go to North Korea for all I care, you'll find a theocracy there but nothing more.

namloc1980

hoorsmelt wrote: »

Food prices are rising, there are forecast to be sugar shortages later on this year, inflation is going up as well, and when someone raises the point that maybe we should think about alternatives to relying on imports they get shouted down. Marvelous. If there was a prize for short-sightedness Permabear and Namloc would be joint prize winners. The days of cheap food imports are coming to an end and we need to produce more ourselves, surely that's not such a bad thing no? And Permabear, FDI is continuing to leave this state despite wage cuts so yes, the free market has failed and needs to be replaced.

I suppose a diet of pure sugar would provide everyone with plenty of sugar energy, but can you imagine the dental bills :eek:

hoorsmelt

namloc1980 wrote: »

I suppose a diet of pure sugar would provide everyone with plenty of sugar energy, but can you imagine the dental bills :eek:

Oh FFS, I gave that as an example of something that could be done, I never said we should ship people to the countryside to grow sugarbeet. If you don't think that's good, fair enough, you're entitled to your opinion even if it's ridiculously short sighted.

Azure1

Duda17 wrote: »

I am extremely sceptical of sinn feins policies and where they would leave us as a country. All im saying is everyone said they wanted change before the election and the fact is we are not going to get that with fine gael. After one week people will be giving out about poor leadership and taxes and cuts the same as when fianna fail were in government. There has to be an alternative though.

And i did consider taking out a newspaper ad as i felt i had to say something. That is how strongly i feel that things will be the same as they were before, the country will be effectively bankrupted, and that is not a good place to be and i will probably be forced to emigrate.

I have to agree with you,
but what are the alternatives,I have spent hours trying to figure out who i,m going to vote for,never before had i put so much of an effort into deciding who i was going to vote,FF,FG,Labour nothing is going to change except the suit,they are all the bloddy same and the country id going to vote in FG and expect a different outcome.

namloc1980

Azure1 wrote: »

I have to agree with you,
but what are the alternatives,I have spent hours trying to figure out who i,m going to vote for,never before had i put so much of an effort into deciding who i was going to vote,FF,FG,Labour nothing is going to change except the suit,they are all the bloddy same and the country id going to vote in FG and expect a different outcome.

Is this really the case? Everyone I know realises that the country is banjaxed and are not expecting FG to come in and wave a magic wand to make it all better. I think most people would be hopeful that the next government would come in and steady the economic ship and bring in some of their reform proposals. Nobody should be expecting miracles. FF have destroyed the country. It will take a long time for it to recover.

K-9

I think the less tax increases line at the expense of cuts to services, argument won out. No change there in Ireland.

Water and property taxes are just pushed onto local authorities and there'll be more privatisations. One thing is for sure, left or right politics, we'll end up paying one way or the other for it.

namloc1980

hoorsmelt wrote: »

Oh FFS, I gave that as an example of something that could be done, I never said we should ship people to the countryside to grow sugarbeet. If you don't think that's good, fair enough, you're entitled to your opinion even if it's ridiculously short sighted.

Sorry for being flippant but when I see self-reliance / state owned industry / workers on the land stuff, all I can think of is the hammer & sickle.

hoorsmelt

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

Aye, as opposed to Fine Gaels 'realistic' plans of reducing the deficit to 3% in 3 years. You're deluded if you believe that, there'd be a default first after which you'd be surviving on tinned beans.

hoorsmelt

namloc1980 wrote: »

Sorry for being flippant but when I see self-reliance / state owned industry / workers on the land stuff, all I can think of is the hammer & sickle.

But state owned industries survive and flourish in many countries. It's also clear that with peak oil upon us, humanity in the western world may be forced back to a simpler lifestyle whether we like it or not. I'm not trying to scaremonger or anything, I just think we need to rely less on imports and make more ourselves. If we had a national manufacturing base we would be in a far better situation than we are now, as we would be able to continue producing our own goods and employing hundreds of thousands of unemployed.

*sorry for being flippant myself, it's late and I'm off to the leaba.

Azure1

namloc1980 wrote: »

Is this really the case? Everyone I know realises that the country is banjaxed and are not expecting FG to come in and wave a magic wand to make it all better. I think most people would be hopeful that the next government would come in and steady the economic ship and bring in some of their reform proposals. Nobody should be expecting miracles. FF have destroyed the country. It will take a long time for it to recover.

I was all for voting for FG anything but FF until I saw the debate on prime time, Enda Kenny really horrified me,
I felt the debate highlighted so much and honestly i cannot vote for FG

jimmycrackcorm

K-9 wrote: »

I think the less tax increases line at the expense of cuts to services, argument won out. No change there in Ireland.

Who said anything about cuts to services? We could maintain services if we paid at the rates we can afford.

namloc1980

hoorsmelt wrote: »

But state owned industries survive and flourish in many countries. It's also clear that with peak oil upon us, humanity in the western world may be forced back to a simpler lifestyle whether we like it or not. I'm not trying to scaremonger or anything, I just think we need to rely less on imports and make more ourselves. If we had a national manufacturing base we would be in a far better situation than we are now, as we would be able to continue producing our own goods and employing hundreds of thousands of unemployed.

*sorry for being flippant myself, it's late and I'm off to the leaba.

We are a small island on the edge of the Atlantic. We have very little in the way of resources to establish this industrial base you propose. We would still have to import the raw materials which kind of defeats the purpose.

jimmycrackcorm

hoorsmelt wrote: »

That's Sinn Féins policies for you. The ULA says that there should be an end to reliance on the bond markets. And that would be entirely possible, given the resources that exist in this country and which haven't been properly used or were expropriated like our farmland and our natural gas. For instance, it would be fairly easy to set up a national sugar industry or to nationalise the Rossport gas and use the gas to help finance the creation of a state-owned industrial base.

I'm all for an end to reliance on the bond markets- all we have to do is cut public service pay and welfare rates and then we can tell the IMF, the bondholders and the bond markets to take a hike.....

But ironically it's the ULA who need the bond markets the most because they'd prefer to keep people in poverty by nursing them instead of concentrating on encouraging self-sufficiency.

As for the rossport gas... I get so tired of that argument. If you believe in our natural resources then why aren't you calling for the government to invest money in finding these resources in the first place. Aren't there lots of other areas, it's a big ocean, to prospect for gas?

Nope- instead like all whacky leftie ideas you want someone else to make the investment effort and then swoop in and steal the profits because that's "fair". We'll be getting taxes from the rossport gas whereas without Shell we would be getting nothing.

Mushy

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

Now im not voting Labour or anything, but no point saying Trotskyites and failed Soviet Union policies. His policies differed strongly than Lenin and were aimed towards economic stability. Sorry to be pedantic but just feel it had to be said.

Back on-topic the one big change that could arise is a left-right split in politics.

jimmycrackcorm

hoorsmelt wrote: »

The days of cheap food imports are coming to an end and we need to produce more ourselves, surely that's not such a bad thing no?

As long as people still shop in Centra instead of Lidl we'll not worry about that.

And Permabear, FDI is continuing to leave this state despite wage cuts so yes, the free market has failed and needs to be replaced.

Funny that all the recent job announcements are FDI based...

meglome

namloc1980 wrote: »

We are a small island on the edge of the Atlantic. We have very little in the way of resources to establish this industrial base you propose. We would still have to import the raw materials which kind of defeats the purpose.

Now now we have 10 squillion in oil and gas around the place somewhere. I think we left it on a bus but it'll turn up. We have as much or even more than Norway if only we hadn't misplaced it.

You're completely right, the idea that in a globalised world we can just be self sufficient is nonsense, especially in a small resource poor country. If the Chinese can make something way cheaper than we can in our expensive ULA workers paradise why would we even buy the expensive goods.

K-9

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

Who said anything about cuts to services? We could maintain services if we paid at the rates we can afford.

Well that's true.

Just thinking about default, never mind the pay and welfare cuts needed to survive on our tax base, peoples houses would get repossessed as they couldn't afford the repayments.

dename

OP I agree with you, i think -- if the polls are anything to go by -- there have been some missed opportunities here. It's pretty disappointing really. Especially, that the Left are mustering up a mere 30-ish % -- very disappointing.

Two reasons I think: a large population of the country sees only two choices for government, FF/FG; so it's down to lack of knowledge. Secondly, I think some mediocre campaigns were run. The numbers were there for the taking, among my generation (mid-twenties) for sure. That Labour is polling at 20% is ludicrous to me. They should be contenders for a single party government at this stage. But like I said, two reasons.

Nothingbetter2d

its ok guys.....if Fine Gael dont work out we can always have a middle east style revolt to oust them

Labour polling at 20% is down to the fact they want to increase pretty much every tax we have.

meglome

dename wrote: »

Two reasons I think: a large population of the country sees only two choices for government, FF/FG; so it's down to lack of knowledge. Secondly, I think some mediocre campaigns were run. The numbers were there for the taking, among my generation (mid-twenties) for sure. That Labour is polling at 20% is ludicrous to me. They should be contenders for a single party government at this stage. But like I said, two reasons.

These might be reasons in your fantasy world but from my talking to people that's not the reason they're voting FG.

Reason 1. People like that FG are the only ones tackling vested interests.
Reason 2. They've been generally honest, saying we'll all have to suffer.
Reason 3. Their plan makes good sense, as much as it can given we're in dire straits.

The left in general started off strong because they were telling people what they wanted to hear. But as it's gone along more people have informed themselves and seen it for what it is. Get the rich is not a sensible economic policy.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

MaceFace

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

I think I would add to that that the Irish political compass is skewed towards the left anyway.
FG would be called a left wing party in some countries.
So, what we have here by international terms is center-left, left, far left.
The PDs were the only true right wing party we had.

FG are planning on raising the minimum wage and keeping the state handouts for those at the lower ends. That's hardly policies of the right.

BTW: I don't even think FF were really on the right. They just threw money at everyone as it was the easy thing to do.

Godge

hoorsmelt wrote: »

steve9859 wrote: »

Did I say that? No I didn't. What I said was there are different options that could be taken, including resuming sugar farming, that would make the Irish economy more stable and sustainable. If you have a good job fair play to you, there's plenty of people here that don;t and making ourselves more self-reliant (without a return to the 1930's) would be a good way to employ people and create wealth without relying on FDI or the market to do so.

Question for you, who would we sell the sugar to?

The sugar industry in Ireland was shut down because it was uncompetitive and required subvention from the EU.

If we start it up again, we will have to do one of two things

(1) Ban sugar imports - Not allowed by the EU and will result in higher prices for the consumer. Will also probably result in the production of all food products needing sugar moving out of Ireland meaning more jobs lost to keep 20 farmers going
(2) Subsidise the production of sugar - Not allowed by the EU and will require someone to lend us the money to pay for the subsidies or higher taxes on people in productive economically viable work.

Go back to dancing at the crossroads with O'Cuiv and the other FFers.

Monty Burnz

Duda17 wrote: »

After one week of fine gael in government we will have the exact same problems as we had with fianna fail.

This much of your post is correct. The rest is mostly waffle I feel.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Monty Burnz

hoorsmelt wrote: »

That's Sinn Féins policies for you. The ULA says that there should be an end to reliance on the bond markets. And that would be entirely possible, given the resources that exist in this country and which haven't been properly used or were expropriated like our farmland and our natural gas. For instance, it would be fairly easy to set up a national sugar industry or to nationalise the Rossport gas and use the gas to help finance the creation of a state-owned industrial base.

Pure fantasy. Ireland as the world's first successful socialist country :rolleyes:

Anyone banging on about our oil and gas 'wealth' doesn't know the FIRST THING about economics, the oil and gas industry, or the economics of the oil and gas industry.

Typically they will be far-left fantasists. Coincidence?

Godge

hoorsmelt wrote: »

But state owned industries survive and flourish in many countries. It's also clear that with peak oil upon us, humanity in the western world may be forced back to a simpler lifestyle whether we like it or not. I'm not trying to scaremonger or anything, I just think we need to rely less on imports and make more ourselves. If we had a national manufacturing base we would be in a far better situation than we are now, as we would be able to continue producing our own goods and employing hundreds of thousands of unemployed.

*sorry for being flippant myself, it's late and I'm off to the leaba.

Which state owned industries and which countries?

Apart from Norway and the happy accident of loads of easy accessible oil, I can't think of any. North Korea? Cuba?

Maybe China, but that is destined to go the way of Russia with the former state-owned companies ending up in the hands of oligarchs when the inevitable collapse of the regime happens.

ei.sdraob

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

Well if they ever do get in power (knocks wood)

everyone would have no choice but to participate in the single party utopia

:P

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Monty Burnz

hoorsmelt wrote: »

Aye, as opposed to Fine Gaels 'realistic' plans of reducing the deficit to 3% in 3 years. You're deluded if you believe that, there'd be a default first after which you'd be surviving on tinned beans.

There may well be a default in a few years. You are saying 'default now'. So what's the problem? We can try plan 'A' - recovery - and if that fails (and there's at least a 50% chance it will) we can try the best plan you have - default.

Monty Burnz

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

I feel there is a gap in the market now that the real Cuba is moving in the opposite direction to us.