Life of an Enlisted Man vs. Life of an Officer

Silent Runner

On a day to day basis, how do the two roles differ.

I don't mean to be asking a stupid question, I have a general idea, I thought it would be interesting to hear your experiences on the ground.

arybvtcw0eolkf

Would anyone like some popcorn - this could be interesting

Manic Moran

I've been on both sides of the aisle. I recall my first weekend away with the FCA in Kilkenny barracks. Recruit Moran was detailed to clean the officer's billets at the end of the weekend. I recall thinking to myself that the officers with their rooms seemed to have life a bit better than my humble self, who was in a platoon bay with some 20 other guys.

When I was in Bovington, I stayed at their officer's mess. The stereotypicality of the place cannot be overstated. I needed to wear a jacket and tie just to attend dinner. (About the one item of attire I didn't bring with me, so by combining other uniforms and some civilian attire, I ended up looking like a reject from The Blues Brothers but passed muster. Barely. I think they gave the foreigner a bit of slack).

Then, in Afghanistan, I was a guest of the French Army. I showed up at their officer's area, and was greeted by a junior soldier behind the bar who asked politely what I might be tempted by to drink. Junior soldiers then served us dinner on the regimental china they had brought over from France, as I sat on wooden chairs and ate with silverware off a fairly solid table. I remarked to one of my colleagues that we in the US Army are doing something wrong.

For, you see, I went and became an officer in probably the most egalitarian military force the world has ever seen. If I were to order one of my subordinates to serve me dinner, he would slap it into the cardboard tray, masturbate into it, then throw it at my folding metal chair. Or something.

Oh well.

If you're not in it for the perks, however, the way I've always viewed it the separation between officers, NCOs and junior enlisted went more or less as follows:

Officers decide what needs to be done.
NCOs decide how best to do it.
Junior enlisted carry it out.

So depending on your mentality, that would define which career path you would like to take.

The main problem is that officers don't spend their whole time 'in the line' like enlisted soldiers tend to. We eventually rotate into staff positions, where we drive desks and do craploads of PowerPoint presentations for each other.

Even in the line units, though, we seem to do a whole crapload of paperwork.

NTM

RMD

Manic just out of curiosity, roughly how long would an officer spend "in the line" before ending up in a desk job?

Manic Moran

That appears to depend very much on the army in question. US officers can expect an average of 5-6 years on the line in total.

I've been incredibly lucky, I'll have clocked up close to 11 before I finally get moved, kicking and screaming, to Personnel for a while. But then, I was never all that interested in career progression and passed up opportunities to move on earlier.

NTM

krissovo

I did both as well, 10 years as a Tom and 6 years as an officer in the BA. Its really hard to reply as there are so many variables its impossible to answer. A lot depends on what Service/Unit/Regiment/Battalion/Squadron/Company/Troop/Platoon/Section.

On a day to day basis the officer will be kept busy planning exercises, soldiers careers and following their own development program. They will sleep in the officers mess in their own room that the vast majority will be en-suit, it may seem odd to mention but a officers bed differs from the other ranks beds in that the mattress will be a sprung 6' compared to a foam 4' for the Tom and the bed is more solid. A junior rank will sleep in a room normally with 4 other soldiers, often once they are promoted they will be given a "bunk" or a one man room and normally without on-suit.

As Manic said the officers mess is generally very formal Monday to Friday, in the Engineers dress is normally a shirt and trousers/smart jeans but Cavalry and historic infantry regiments would be jacket and tie. Officers also pay a lot for the mess privileges, I was paying £400 - £600 a month in mess bills, Guards unit officers often pay their entire salary in mess bills so often they will have 2nd incomes or rich daddies.

Poccington

In the DF, I've come across some good ones.

My general opinion on the kind of Officers I see populating the DF though, I'll keep that opinion to myself. There's too many people watching this forum and I'd end up getting myself in trouble.

p1akuw47h5r3it

Poccington wrote: »

In the DF, I've come across some good ones.

My general opinion on the kind of Officers I see populating the DF though, I'll keep that opinion to myself. There's too many people watching this forum and I'd end up getting myself in trouble.

Hi Poccington,

Do you mean you feel PDF Officers are lazy or treat their subordinates with contempt or even both?

Poccington

DanDan6592 wrote: »

Hi Poccington,

Do you mean you feel PDF Officers are lazy or treat their subordinates with contempt or even both?

I mean I'm keeping my opinion to myself. :pac:

p1akuw47h5r3it

Poccington wrote: »

I mean I'm keeping my opinion to myself. :pac:

haha cool ok

arybvtcw0eolkf

Poccington wrote: »

I mean I'm keeping my opinion to myself. :pac:

Would you care to join me in a bag portion of popcorn perhaps?... :pac:

dahamster

Poccington wrote: »

In the DF, I've come across some good ones.

My general opinion on the kind of Officers I see populating the DF though, I'll keep that opinion to myself. There's too many people watching this forum and I'd end up getting myself in trouble.

I'm out so here you go pocc:

I have meet a small few good ones. The rest were self centered mickyheads only interested in their own careers and didn't give a **** about the lads.:)

um7y1h83ge06nx

Manic Moran wrote: »

I've been incredibly lucky, I'll have clocked up close to 11 before I finally get moved, kicking and screaming, to Personnel for a while.

I only usually lurk on this section of boards and even though you write brilliant posts this was the first thing I thought of when I read this! :D

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DGCMyF-sA58

trellheim

Request title change : Life of an Enlisted Man vs. Life of an Officer.

Officers are soldiers too.

SamuelFox

In the British Army you must dress for dinner. Depending on the mess uniform, shirt and tie or suit must be worn. I've never visited a Royal Engineers but I would be amazed if jeans could be worn. In some messes, (most of the messes I've been in) jeans, smart or otherwise, are verboten.

The reason for this is a mark of respect for your fellow officers, the regiment itself and most importantly the mess staff, who up to recently would have been military.

In terms of officers career profile I posted this in another thread, it might be of interest:

Just to comment on tac Foleys post if I may – this stuff was probably spot on a few years ago but the Army has changed a lot in the last number of years and some of your info is slightly off now.

Firstly the age thing – the average age at RMAS is now 23-25. OCdts tend to spend longer in college and also do a gap year so elderly cadets are more common. The AToS that you may have been familiar with have been changed to LToS (based on length of service from commissioning and including any seniority given for service in the ranks or University education). This means that getting a majority by 30 is no longer the norm, although it’s still very common. 31-32 is probably more like it with 38-40 for half colonel. The appointment examples you gave are a bit off – depending on how good you are perceived to be there are a lot more appointments available at Capt rank (specialist platoon and regimental level appointments, or staff posts in brigades) and you can generally expect to hold 3 appointments in that rank.

Also, most Majors will only get one command appointment, the rest being desk jobs, and not all Lt Cols will get a regimental command as there is again just not enough to go around!

In terms of junior officer development the practice of sending all young officers to teeth arm units is no longer the practice, except for the Int Corps. (I didn’t actually realise it was the practice in the past either!) All other officers do special to arm training straight after RMAS and then take a troop in their own Corps. Obviously too only Infantry officers do PCD which is now in Brecon. It was probably still in Warminster in your time. If non teeth officers wish to do the course they can volunteer, but AFAIK the All arms course was scrapped. The pace of operations mean now that even though infantry skills are badly needed in CS and CSS units the time isn’t there to let guys away. Similarly with the number of courses done as Lt – in practice once your unit is warned for Ops only the most vital ones are done, you are too busy to do the non – essential ones. However it won’t stop the Adjt or 2 i/c catching you for some pointless activities!

In terms of length of service a lot of guys are leaving before reaching Major – lots find that the pace of Ops is too heavy to have a life at all. If you have a missus or sprogs they won’t enjoy the lifestyle as it stands. There is no shame in doing 5/6 years and heading off, lots do it. In fairness the system is designed for that – no serious military wants a huge rump of unpromotable majors.

Poccington

SamuelFox wrote: »

In the British Army you must dress for dinner. Depending on the mess uniform, shirt and tie or suit must be worn. I've never visited a Royal Engineers but I would be amazed if jeans could be worn. In some messes, (most of the messes I've been in) jeans, smart or otherwise, are verboten.

The reason for this is a mark of respect for your fellow officers, the regiment itself and most importantly the mess staff, who up to recently would have been military.

Is that the dress at all times in the Mess, or purely for meal times?

Poccington

Stetson Acidic Scholar wrote: »

Would you care to join me in a bag portion of popcorn perhaps?... :pac:

I think I may have to.

You got any butter for the popcorn? :pac:

trellheim wrote: »

Request title change : Life of an Enlisted Man vs. Life of an Officer.

Officers are soldiers too.

Fair point actually, consider it done.

OS119

Poccington wrote: »

Is that the dress at all times in the Mess, or purely for meal times?

depends on the mess, the regiments there and the personalities on the MC.

there are Army messes that genuinely require collar and tie - if not in uniform - to be worn by anyone even walking through to get to their room or going out, there are others that are much more relaxed. none of them quite as relaxed as an RAF mess of course - we would never allow white socks or slip-on shoes.

or people called 'Kevin' or 'Darren'.

xflyer

On my first camp with the FCA in Gormanston. One day I was detailed to work in the Officers mess. Cleaning the windows from the outside, I saw how the other half lived. After that I was given a spotless white waiter's jacket which was rather incongruous with my combat trousers and served lunch to the officers which was notably better than the slop were were served.

I suspect things have changed a bit since then but it certainly coloured my view of the divide.

Poccington

xflyer wrote: »

On my first camp with the FCA in Gormanston. One day I was detailed to work in the Officers mess. Cleaning the windows from the outside, I saw how the other half lived. After that I was given a spotless white waiter's jacket which was rather incongruous with my combat trousers and served lunch to the officers which was notably better than the slop were were served.

I suspect things have changed a bit since then but it certainly coloured my view of the divide.

I wouldn't be so sure of that.

Manic Moran

There were two American surveillance types working away next to each other, one an E-4, the other a 1LT. Both were effectively doing the same job, monitoring the same systems. The only difference was that the LT on rare occasions had to do a bit more paperwork and listen to the Captain, and the fact that he was getting paid substantially more for it and had the occasional perk.

The E-4, a bit put out by this, made the mistake of asking why it is that there was such a difference given that the two jobs were more or less the same. The response was akin to "I spent four years in college, and Congress trusts me"

---

The US Army has, I think, gone a little too far in its egalitarianism. There are no longer officer's messes. (They aren't the full-on hotel/restaurant/bar affairs of the British Army, just basically a private pub/bar). There are now just 'clubs', open to all. The problem with this is that it results in a lack of ability to talk shop on your off hours. When you finally have time at the end of the day to meet up with your fellow company commanders over a pint, one of the subjects that invariably will want to crop up is issues with the unit or individual soldiers. However, you are very limited in your ability to compare notes on how to deal with such problems when there's a great chance that the chap on the other side of you is a private, maybe even the one in question.

The other problem is that you don't have the opportunity to just let your hair down and go wild. As long as you're in view of your subordinates, some form of dignity must be maintained.

NTM

Manic Moran

On the issue of 'perks', there is one other concern, which probably doesn't come up as often in Ireland as it doesn't do all that much work with militaries which are not culturally organised more or less on Western lines.

By way of example, I copy from a thread on another forum.

An example of this is an observation I made during an early Team Spirit experience I had--One of our officers was a prior-service enlisted guy, who'd done a good deal of time in Korea, and was married to a Korean. Which would make you think he was a bit more tuned-in to the ROK Army sensibilities, but he wasn't. During the exercise, he took over driving from his driver, because the poor kid was freaked out by Korean traffic. Subsequently to this, the Major pulls up to a pretty important coordination meeting, with some senior ROKA guys. During this meeting, the ROKA staff guys wouldn't even pay attention to him, and ignored him, pointedly. This "cold shoulder" went to the point where the battalion commander had to delegate the XO to do all the coordination, instead of the S3. Trying to figure out where things went south, it later dawned on the command that the whole thing came from the fact that the Major had shown up at this very important meeting driving the vehicle, as opposed to being driven, which indicated that he couldn't have been very important, or worthy of respect, because he did his own driving... Huge loss of "face" for him, which he and every other US officer would have been completely oblivious to.

Similarly, it's considered good form for an officer in the US to get his hands dirty every now and then. I missed many motor pool days because I was catching up on paperwork, but if I never found the time to turn a wrench, that would be remarked upon. However, relations with, say, an Arab officer would immediately get off to a poor start if he came looking for me only to be told "He's over there under that tank lying on the dirt with the socket wrench." No respect for me at all.

It is, perhaps, interesting to note that most of the replies to this thread so far have been relevant to the peculiarities of an officer's off-hours rituals and standards. Few so much about the actual 'line' duties. I would just like to re-iterate that the main difference between an officer and enlisted soldier is not the fact that the officer has to wear a tie when he has dinner.

NTM

OS119

Manic Moran wrote: »

The US Army has, I think, gone a little too far in its egalitarianism. There are no longer officer's messes. (They aren't the full-on hotel/restaurant/bar affairs of the British Army, just basically a private pub/bar). There are now just 'clubs', open to all. The problem with this is that it results in a lack of ability to talk shop on your off hours. When you finally have time at the end of the day to meet up with your fellow company commanders over a pint, one of the subjects that invariably will want to crop up is issues with the unit or individual soldiers. However, you are very limited in your ability to compare notes on how to deal with such problems when there's a great chance that the chap on the other side of you is a private, maybe even the one in question.

The other problem is that you don't have the opportunity to just let your hair down and go wild. As long as you're in view of your subordinates, some form of dignity must be maintained.

NTM

it does have its advantages - i'm not a fan of 'mess culture', never have been and lived out at the first opportunity and continue to avoid it like the plague, but the code of silence about what happens in the mess is sacrosanct - and the ability to have a 'hats off' coversation with your peers while the beers are in, the feet are up and know that it will never, ever leak is utterly invaluable.

not sure i can see the advantage of the US system for the non-officers either - i'm quite sure they want somewhere to bitch and slag down everything i say and do without fear that i might find out. the battery bar is a bit different, but the mess is where lots of people live, and i think they have the right to feel comfortable and at ease where they live.

Cryos

OS119 wrote: »

not sure i can see the advantage of the US system for the non-officers either - i'm quite sure they want somewhere to bitch and slag down everything i say and do without fear that i might find out. the battery bar is a bit different, but the mess is where lots of people live, and i think they have the right to feel comfortable and at ease where they live.

Looking at the privates mess in the Brugha recently would resemble something more of a ghost town, there was about 8 bodies there max when i was there this week.

gizmo555

Manic Moran wrote: »

The US Army has, I think, gone a little too far in its egalitarianism. There are no longer officer's messes.

A sergeant in our FCA unit whose day job was writing on defence for a national newspaper told a story from a trip he made for the paper to the Lebanon in UNIFIL's very early days, in the late 70s.

Apparently, a number of Irish privates were refused service in an enlisted men's mess because the 3 stars on their sleeves were taken to be officer's rank insignia by the soldiers of another country who were running the facility. They had to do as they were told and take themselves off to the officers' mess to get fed and watered.

thefishone

Manic Moran wrote: »

Similarly, it's considered good form for an officer in the US to get his hands dirty every now and then.

NTM

I'm trying hard,very hard,but I can't remember seeing an officer with dirty hands.

ChunkyLover_53

gizmo555 wrote: »

A sergeant in our FCA unit whose day job was writing on defence for a national newspaper told a story from a trip he made for the paper to the Lebanon in UNIFIL's very early days, in the late 70s.

Apparently, a number of Irish privates were refused service in an enlisted men's mess because the 3 stars on their sleeves were taken to be officer's rank insignia by the soldiers of another country who were running the facility. They had to do as they were told and take themselves off to the officers' mess to get fed and watered.

In the same vein as that story when INDIBATT arrived in Lebanon in the late nineties many a snap honour guard was called by them when a Land Cruiser full off 3 Stars was spotted in their AO. I can only imagine the utter panic caused by a few lads on a mingi trip.

Also a story of the Irish Transport Company in Kosovo a Blackhawk landed outside Camp Clarke looking for the 2 Irish generals who had invited most of the Top Brass in Camp Bondsteel to drinks in the mess earlier that week.

Manic Moran

Looking at the privates mess in the Brugha recently would resemble something more of a ghost town, there was about 8 bodies there max when i was there this week.

He wasn't speaking figuratively. He literally means that there are officers who live at the officer's mess. It's not just a bar in the UK, it's also an apartment building, a lounge, country club and dining facility amongst other things.

NTM

SamuelFox

Poccington wrote: »

Is that the dress at all times in the Mess, or purely for meal times?

Depends on the mess. Every one of them is different.

Where I am now it is suit or uniform for meals weekday, suit evening meals at weekends, slacks and shirt (with tie handy) other meals at weekends if you are eating in the Dining Room. If you don't want to dress you can take a meal in the TV room, but its frowned upon.

Suit must be worn on Sundays in main areas of the mess, unless in uniform which must be No.2 dress (like Irish SD 1) unless on duty.

In the mess you wear shirt and slacks at weekends and out of hours in main areas. We have a young officers common room (bar) where its relaxed, but still slacks and shirt needed.

Like someone said earlier it is down the the Mess President, and ours is crusty!

trellheim

To agree with Mr. Fox there, I was always told by my 2IC and the Adj. that the dress for the mess was suit or at the very least shirt and tie, or uniform.

I'd echo Nick and say this is little to do with our work life though. ( and I'm not really fully representative, as I'm RDF but hey takes all kinds. )

xflyer

I would just like to re-iterate that the main difference between an officer and enlisted soldier is not the fact that the officer has to wear a tie when he has dinner.

That maybe true. But until you have the pips on your shoulder, you won't get any sympathy! Being an officer is like any management job. You may have the best interests of your men at heart and unique pressures but don't expect to receive any gratitude for it.

Such is the life of an officer.

Manic Moran

Buddy of mine asked me to be a speaker at an RDF Sergeant's Course. I chose the topic of the officer/NCO relationship.

The first twenty minutes or so was spent explaining why lieutenants (platoon leaders) were utterly pointless.

NTM

dodgydes

Manic Moran wrote: »

The first twenty minutes or so was spent explaining why lieutenants (platoon leaders) were utterly pointless.

NTM

It only took you twenty minutes, you must have used powerpoint on fast-forward

RMD

SamuelFox wrote: »

Depends on the mess. Every one of them is different.

Where I am now it is suit or uniform for meals weekday, suit evening meals at weekends, slacks and shirt (with tie handy) other meals at weekends if you are eating in the Dining Room. If you don't want to dress you can take a meal in the TV room, but its frowned upon.

Suit must be worn on Sundays in main areas of the mess, unless in uniform which must be No.2 dress (like Irish SD 1) unless on duty.

In the mess you wear shirt and slacks at weekends and out of hours in main areas. We have a young officers common room (bar) where its relaxed, but still slacks and shirt needed.

Like someone said earlier it is down the the Mess President, and ours is crusty!

Just out of curiosity Sam even though you said your president is crusty, would you have any idea how your mess compares to others? Are they all filled with a bunch of crusty lads or are they more lenient and relaxed.

Stovepipe

Hi all,
Officers get privileges, even simple ones, denied to the enlisted men, because they are expected to carry a higher burden of command and responsibility.that is, enjoy the good grub and the better uniforms and better pay but be prepared to earn it the hard way when the **** hits the fan. What galled me most of all, in the Don, was the aspect that Officers were regarded as superior beings for being pilots whereas us techs, who knew the aircraft backwards, were regarded as ignorants. I remember one expressing surprise that I had my Leaving Cert.
In fairness, most officers that I met were alright. There were a few right jerks and a few who were as thick as planks and a few who were downright dangerous, but the enlisted ranks had the same.
regards
Stovepipe

punchdrunk

Stovepipe wrote: »

Hi all,
Officers get privileges, even simple ones, denied to the enlisted men, because they are expected to carry a higher burden of command and responsibility.that is, enjoy the good grub and the better uniforms and better pay but be prepared to earn it the hard way when the **** hits the fan. What galled me most of all, in the Don, was the aspect that Officers were regarded as superior beings for being pilots whereas us techs, who knew the aircraft backwards, were regarded as ignorants. I remember one expressing surprise that I had my Leaving Cert.
In fairness, most officers that I met were alright. There were a few right jerks and a few who were as thick as planks and a few who were downright dangerous, but the enlisted ranks had the same.
regards
Stovepipe

thats why we need NCO pilots like the Army Air Corps,
if theirs can fly Apaches
ours can fly over Finglas...

mhorda

I'm of the opinion that the best officers come up through the enlisted ranks...now don't get me wrong...there are some damn fine ones who were direct entry...just my experience

Manic Moran

Some of the worst ones do, too. Particularly those who used to be senior NCOs, and can't bring themselves to stay out of NCO business.

NTM

krissovo

Manic Moran wrote: »

Some of the worst ones do, too. Particularly those who used to be senior NCOs, and can't bring themselves to stay out of NCO business.

NTM

I think I was one of these;)

I found I was trying to do the job of JNCO's and up :eek: