Arranging classroom experience

Denerick

I work full time and as such cannot blythly take a couple of weeks off in order to get work experience in a classroom (I'm skeptical about their use anyway to be honest. 2/3 of your Hdip takes place in a classroom for Gods sake)

Is it just me, or are these sorts of requirements a way of protecting jobs for the middle classes? In many industries it is practically a requirement that you undergo a period of unpaid internship before taking your position. People who cannot afford to... you know... not earn money... are automatically screwed while those from families willing to support them are laughing all the way to the front of the queue. Does no-one else think that this situation is patently unfair and discriminatory?

byhookorbycrook

er, no. Why should someone pay you to do a job you are only learning to do?Primary teaching students have to do their own teaching practice AND pay for all materials required to do so.

delta_bravo

What is your question here? Are you giving out about rich people having the time to shadow before doing the dip or rich people finding it easier to do the dip?

Denerick

My point is that the classroom observation requirement neccessitates for a lot of people to give up their job. I, and many others are not in a position to do so. In short, in order for me to do a Hdip I either have to take a lot of time off (Impossible with my job) or quit my job (I need the money) What am I supposed to do? I'd be willing to shadow someone doing evening classes, as this would work around my hours, but of course they won't accept adult education as relevant experience.

I'm not complaining about teaching practise once you actually GET on a course, I'm complaining about the level of classroom observation they expect you to have. I'm really pissed off about it. I simply can't get the time off to fulfill their requirements.

mrboswell

To be fair, do you not think that its a sign of the times? I mean years ago when teachers were in demand the criteria for getting in were not as tough.

They want the most suitable people in the job so they make the criteria more difficult. They deem certain things as relevant, just like people interviewing for a job do, in order to pick what they see as the best candidate.

To cut a long story short its not about protecting anyone in the middle class or teaching profession. They want to make it easier for them to decide on who to let in. Unfortunately for you if you can't take the time off you get classroom experience then you may not be the best candidate for them.

Now, more than ever, it is getting increasingly difficult to get college places and jobs so you need to have something extra - not just a rich family.

Denerick

mrboswell wrote: »

To be fair, do you not think that its a sign of the times? I mean years ago when teachers were in demand the criteria for getting in were not as tough.

They want the most suitable people in the job so they make the criteria more difficult. They deem certain things as relevant, just like people interviewing for a job do, in order to pick what they see as the best candidate.

To cut a long story short its not about protecting anyone in the middle class or teaching profession. They want to make it easier for them to decide on who to let in. Unfortunately for you if you can't take the time off you get classroom experience then you may not be the best candidate for them.

Now, more than ever, it is getting increasingly difficult to get college places and jobs so you need to have something extra - not just a rich family.

That is profoundly unfair. My being able to get teaching experience or not does not determine whether I would be a good teacher. Its as simple as this - if I give up my job to get teaching experience, I'm homeless. How is that fair? Its clearly a glass ceiling that has been invented simply because demand for places has shot up rapidly. They have just arbitrarily decided to ramp up the expectations because they want to discourage people for applying. Don't feed me this BS that they are doing it for my own good or because 'they want to choose the best applicants'. Two weeks of sitting in someone's classroom, half asleep, literally doing nothing except supposedly 'watching' someone else teach is not going to determine whether I am a good or bad teacher. Its like everything else in this snivelling little country, stupid bureaucrats inventing stupid regulations so as to make it even more difficult to get on in an already very difficult situation.

clartharlear

In the nicest possible way, I'd like to tell you that if you can't afford to take a few weeks for teaching practice, you can't afford to take a year without pay doing the dip, and how ever many years after working temporary and part-time jobs.
Best of luck to you, but if you have a job, don't quit it.

spurious

DCU's 'dip' might suit you. It's over two years and mostly in the evenings.

Denerick

clartharlear wrote: »

In the nicest possible way, I'd like to tell you that if you can't afford to take a few weeks for teaching practice, you can't afford to take a year without pay doing the dip, and how ever many years after working temporary and part-time jobs.
Best of luck to you, but if you have a job, don't quit it.

If I get on the course, I'll take out a loan (I'm applying to the UK also) My point is that it is insane to quit your job in order to get experience for which you will have to wait more than a year before you know if you get on the course, only to find out that you were rejected... and you have to wait another year...

All I ask is that the course providers have a little humanity and understand that not all of us are middle class youngsters capable of playing teacher in secondary school... Some of us have to work and save and scrimp our way to get where we want to go. Just make it a little easier on us.

Up-n-atom!

You can correct me if I'm wrong here, but can't you do your experience bit by bit instead of altogether? I was at a talk about doing the PGCE in England recently and the speaker said the teaching hours required could be accumulated through a half-day of observation over a period of a number of weeks. Even if you had to do it altogether, could you not take a little holiday time or a week or 2 of unpaid leave?

Terri26

What college expects you to observe a class for two weeks before the course even begins? Could you not take holiday time rather than give up your job before the course begins?

Denerick

Up-n-atom! wrote: »

You can correct me if I'm wrong here, but can't you do your experience bit by bit instead of all together. I was at a talk about doing the PGCE in England recently and the speaker said the requirement of teaching hours could be accumulated through a half-day of observation over a period of a number of weeks. Even if you had to do it all together, could you not take a little holiday time or a week or 2 of unpaid leave?

I'm on rolling 3 month temp contracts. My employers are more than aware of the employment situation in this country. 2 weeks unpaid leave would very quickly become 52 weeks unpaid leave.

floating voter

+1

You rightly complain that ability to take time off to do some voluntary teaching has no bearing on the type of teacher you may be.

Yet you want to have some teaching time on your cv for what exactly?

To guild your CV and jump over other Hdip candidates?

two sides of the same coin if you think about it.

byhookorbycrook

Denerick wrote: »

Two weeks of sitting in someone's classroom, half asleep, literally doing nothing except supposedly 'watching' someone else teach is not going to determine whether I am a good or bad teacher.

So, you really don't want to do the observation,as you see it as a waste of time?Doesn't bode well,if that is your point of view.

Before I went to do my degree I managed to fit in "observation" in different places and that made my mind up pretty pronto as to whether I actually really wanted to be a teacher or not.I was lucky to be allowed to help in a number of schools, saw different styles of teaching, different types of schools and special needs.

Up-n-atom!

Have you spoken to your employer about the possibility of time off? They could be more reasonable than you expect (unless, of course, you've already asked and they reacted negatively). I think you need 10 hours at least, which isn't really that much. I know it doesn't exactly mean you'll be a good teacher but it shows you're interested/serious about persuing teaching.

Denerick

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

So, you really don't want to do the observation,as you see it as a waste of time?Doesn't bode well,if that is your point of view.

Before I went to do my degree I managed to fit in "observation" in different places and that made my mind up pretty pronto as to whether I actually really wanted to be a teacher or not.I was lucky to be allowed to help in a number of schools, saw different styles of teaching, different types of schools and special needs.

No, I see it as one of these arbitrary provisions that have no bearing as to whether you will be good or bad at your profession. I'm sure it has its uses, but mostly it serves to provide an automatic disqualifier for those who haven't went through it.

I worked damn hard in university and got a good degree. I need to accumulate money as I want to do a HDip or PGCE. I cannot leave my present job in these circumstances. I am currently looking into doing the odd day here and there when my job permits, but as you can imagine, local principals really see me as a minor irritant and when I approached them with this idea it was sort of like 'we're busy, go away, come back when you have a clear run of days'.

Generally I'm just venting here. I'm really pissed off that circumstances have conspired against me in such a fashion. Kafka-esque almost. Hyperbole intended.

Denerick

floating voter wrote: »

+1

You rightly complain that ability to take time off to do some voluntary teaching has no bearing on the type of teacher you may be.

Yet you want to have some teaching time on your cv for what exactly?

To guild your CV and jump over other Hdip candidates?

two sides of the same coin if you think about it.

You don't understand the Irish system. I know people with around three months subbing experience who were rejected. Its a real jungle out there.

delta_bravo

I had zero experience in teaching when I started the dip. Depending on the school and how much you push for it, most schools will give you a week or two of observing the main teacher teach the class while you sit in the back and take it in. It was very beneficial for me.

You are making it sound as if you are obliged to do some shadowing prior to doing the dip. That is not the case at all, in Ireland anyway.

Toto Wolfcastle

delta_bravo wrote: »

I had zero experience in teaching when I started the dip. Depending on the school and how much you push for it, most schools will give you a week or two of observing the main teacher teach the class while you sit in the back and take it in. It was very beneficial for me.

You are making it sound as if you are obliged to do some shadowing prior to doing the dip. That is not the case at all, in Ireland anyway.

I had no experience either. I didn't spend one day observing or teaching before I started the dip.

Observation can be very useful though. We had to observe in a primary school as well as a secondary school and one girl decided after her primary observation that she wanted to teach in a primary school rather than a secondary school. Useful, but not always essential I would have thought depending on the course.

Which course are you applying for Denerick?

mrboswell

Denerick wrote: »

That is profoundly unfair. My being able to get teaching experience or not does not determine whether I would be a good teacher. Its as simple as this - if I give up my job to get teaching experience, I'm homeless. How is that fair? Its clearly a glass ceiling that has been invented simply because demand for places has shot up rapidly. They have just arbitrarily decided to ramp up the expectations because they want to discourage people for applying. Don't feed me this BS that they are doing it for my own good or because 'they want to choose the best applicants'. Two weeks of sitting in someone's classroom, half asleep, literally doing nothing except supposedly 'watching' someone else teach is not going to determine whether I am a good or bad teacher. Its like everything else in this snivelling little country, stupid bureaucrats inventing stupid regulations so as to make it even more difficult to get on in an already very difficult situation.

Well it is unfair but as I said already its a sign of the times. I had to wait later than expected to do my dip because I needed to work to pay bill etc and my mammy and daddy didn't give me the money to do it so you won't get any sympathy from me in that respect. Teaching was what I wanted to do so I kept plugging away until I could afford it and then I spent a year with some subbing after I did the dip.

Yea its not fair but you if you really want it then you need to keep plugging away and get on with it. The 'glass celling" is there because of a number of things. For starters the colleges are allowing people to do the dip that are not qualified to teach anything when they finish the dip, resulting in a lot of people that have to fight with the teaching council for recognition to be able to teach. Secondly, there are limited places and they obviously can't take in everyone who applies. It is not just the dips that are in this position - all courses are suffering the same fate - and that is why points are going to go up through the roof. Its not to discourage people from applying, it's limiting the numbers to the places available based on the entry criteria - points from the leaving cert. in this case. How is that fair? Well its not but thats the way it is. If you think applying for the dip is difficult then you won't enjoy looking for a teaching position either.

Its not BS that they are doing it for your own good or because 'they want to choose the best applicants'.
Maybe its because they want to see who really wants it as opposed to those who view it as "Two weeks of sitting in someone's classroom, half asleep, literally doing nothing except supposedly 'watching' someone else teach is not going to determine whether I am a good or bad teacher".

It a recession so no one has it easy and as someone pointed out if you have employment you would be mad to give it up.

You said it - its a real jungle out there, for the whole country, and its only going to get worse for the foreseeable future.

roe_cat

It's a requirement for UK but I don't know if it's needed anywhere in Ireland. As has been mentioned above it could be done a half day a week over a few months. Or, you could take 2 weeks holidays for it.
If there was a longer requirement like an internship I'd agree with your complaint that it's biased towards richer students, but 10 days is really not so much.
As for the reasons - the idea isn't that it makes you a better teacher, it's to stop you making a huge mistake, choosing the course and going into teaching with some idealised notion of the profession having never experienced a school from the teacher's point of view. (And more importantly for the UK it's to stop them wasting their grants on people who are never going to work as teachers.)

markievicz

Denerick, as far as I'm aware teaching experience/subbing isnt counted towards the points for the PGDE anymore. I think they're trying to make it more academically selective, in that people who have done well in their degrees and have further qualifications will get it over someone who has an average degree and loads of TP. The 2010/2011 class (finshing in May/June) was the last year to be able to use Teaching experience towards points. The only points you can gain outside of your qualification points are for paid employment in an area which would be related to the subject you want to teach ie if you were working in a lab for the past year fully paid you could count 1 point if you wanted to teach Science. It's all on the PAC website if you want to have a look at it.

The only reason I know is cos I've applied!:D

MilkTheGroup

well you know Denerick it could be argued that if your family or parent(s) had obtained better paid jobs they would be in a position to support you while you look for classroom observation. my dad came from a working class background and made it his business to make sure he could help myself and my siblings through our education. im afraid thats what you get when your parents settle for unskilled or lowly paid jobs. the world is an unfair place.

PS: Classroom observation is not essential for the HDip by any means.

#15

MilkTheGroup wrote: »

well you know Denerick it could be argued that if your family or parent(s) had obtained better paid jobs they would be in a position to support you while you look for classroom observation. my dad came from a working class background and made it his business to make sure he could help myself and my siblings through our education. im afraid thats what you get when your parents settle for unskilled or lowly paid jobs. the world is an unfair place.

Well done, what an ignorant post.

gaeilgebeo

MilkTheGroup wrote: »

well you know Denerick it could be argued that if your family or parent(s) had obtained better paid jobs they would be in a position to support you while you look for classroom observation. my dad came from a working class background and made it his business to make sure he could help myself and my siblings through our education. im afraid thats what you get when your parents settle for unskilled or lowly paid jobs. the world is an unfair place.

PS: Classroom observation is not essential for the HDip by any means.

Well your Dad obviously didn't do so good on the teaching you manners, judging from your ridiculous post.
One of the worst posts I've seen in a long tome.