Sell off of the ESB

west20s

I am in my early 20s located in the west of ireland.
With the election drawing ever closer,there is one issue which i feel needs to be adressed,the impending sell off of the ESB.
It seems to me that in the near future,when the next government is in,that there will be room for negotiation with the IMF as they have implied
,but that this renegotiating will be for us to cough up more sooner.This has happend in other countries they have ''helped ''.
This will mean the sell off or ''privitisation'' of numerous state assets ,including the ESB.
I have not heard any politian deal with this,they seem to be managing to tip toe around it.
This is something FF and Cowen have known about as Brian cowen himself ,shortly before his axing,wanted to spend millions rebranding the ESB.
This could only be because they knew it would have to be sold off.

thank you ,


p.s... Maybe they werent the only ones foreseeing this,Airticity for example have already switched 500,000 customers from ESB surely substantually devaluing it,possibly for a takeover

stevoslice

west20s wrote: »

I am in my early 20s located in the west of ireland.
With the election drawing ever closer,there is one issue which i feel needs to be adressed,the impending sell off of the ESB.
It seems to me that in the near future,when the next government is in,that there will be room for negotiation with the IMF as they have implied
,but that this renegotiating will be for us to cough up more sooner.This has happend in other countries they have ''helped ''.
This will mean the sell off or ''privitisation'' of numerous state assets ,including the ESB.
I have not heard any politian deal with this,they seem to be managing to tip toe around it.
This is something FF and Cowen have known about as Brian cowen himself ,shortly before his axing,wanted to spend millions rebranding the ESB.
This could only be because they knew it would have to be sold off.

thank you ,


p.s... Maybe they werent the only ones foreseeing this,Airticity for example have already switched 500,000 customers from ESB surely substantually devaluing it,possibly for a takeover

Fine Gael are definitely in favour of selling the state's assets (ESB, Bord Gais, etc.)

I think it would be a mistake personally as we could end up with the same type situation as we saw with the Telecom Eireann/Eircom meltdown and end up with over priced bills and terrible infrastructure.

The ESB is losing customers every day simply because they are not allowed to compete with other 'newer' businesses under regulation, but i would say the regulation of the ESB will shortly be lifted, they can then compete again, which should see a fair few customers return to the ESB.

you mention the government spending millions on rebranding, technically its kind of true, but the ESB makes so much money they don't need government funding, and as a semi state bring in money to the govt coffers.

The problem with privatisation of these resources is not one i wish the country to deal with any time soon, as i have a feeling it could be disastrous in the long term (no reinvestment in infrastructure, plenty of competition yet no value for money, and zero tolerance on late bills, ie cut-off).

Mr. Bean.

thebhoy wrote: »

Fine Gael are definitely in favour of selling the state's assets (ESB, Bord Gais, etc.)

I think it would be a mistake personally as we could end up with the same type situation as we saw with the Telecom Eireann/Eircom meltdown and end up with over priced bills and terrible infrastructure.

I agree completely. If Fine Gael took the foolish decision (which they will) to sell off semi state assets, the companies would go to rack and ruin. It was tried and tested before, The Telecom Eireann mess and Aer Lingus now too, look at how much of a state it's in.
As a disastrous result of selling off these state assets, Jobs will be lost, as has/is happening with both eircom (which is in debt) and Aer Lingus.
Certainly, Some state assets in fact do cost the state a fortune, like Bus Eireann for example. Unprofitable state assets like this need to be reformed, yet still kept under state control.
It suits the state/society better to have someone working in an unprofitable state company then sitting on the dole.
Furthermore, Without state assets, The only income for the state is taxes... So where's Fine Gael going to get all the money? Taxes. They cry, moan and whinge about all the taxes FF brought in, but decline to say that they'll remove them. Whats more is, they can boast about "not increasing income tax" but instead they'll tax us in different ways. This "stealth taxing" as it was appropriately called by Michael Martin, is called so because FG are not straight with the electorate and do not give the full picture. However that's a different story.


I find it ridiculous that despite the numerous examples of failed privatisation, that Fine Gael want to go ahead with it. Although, they do lately seem to not know what they want to do... Enda Kenny, what a intellegent, responsible, clever guy... I hope everyone seen how clear and concise he was to Brian Dobson today when asked about how many "frontline public servants" there were. There are "it depends on what your definition of a frontline service is" frontline service civil servants in this country. :rolleyes:

ninty9er

west20s wrote: »

I am in my early 20s located in the west of ireland.
With the election drawing ever closer,there is one issue which i feel needs to be adressed,the impending sell off of the ESB.
It seems to me that in the near future,when the next government is in,that there will be room for negotiation with the IMF as they have implied
,but that this renegotiating will be for us to cough up more sooner.This has happend in other countries they have ''helped ''.
This will mean the sell off or ''privitisation'' of numerous state assets ,including the ESB.
I have not heard any politian deal with this,they seem to be managing to tip toe around it.
This is something FF and Cowen have known about as Brian cowen himself ,shortly before his axing,wanted to spend millions rebranding the ESB.
This could only be because they knew it would have to be sold off.

thank you ,


p.s... Maybe they werent the only ones foreseeing this,Airticity for example have already switched 500,000 customers from ESB surely substantually devaluing it,possibly for a takeover

Just an FYI. Brian Cowen is Taoiseach until the 9th of March. He hasn't been as you so eloquently put it "axed"

ESB has been rebranded as it was a requirement of the Competition Authority.

<paranoia> For someone coming on here to plug an idea after Enda was forced to admit he would do it yesterday, you display about the same grip on facts as he does</paranoia>

God help us all.

gk5000

Who care about eircom now? You can get your broadband of UPC or 3 or Vodafone.
Who cares about Aerlingus when you can fly Ryanair?

The average salary in ESB is over €100,000 suposedly, so why should we protect them, giving that they have been creaming it at our expense for so long. How do they help the plain people of Ireland?

IMHO, the first to go should be RTE=Pravda minus any strategic parts. Let the private sector pay Pat Kenny's salary.

Sir Oxman

gk5000 wrote: »

Who care about eircom now? You can get your broadband of UPC or 3 or Vodafone.
Who cares about Aerlingus when you can fly Ryanair?

The average salary in ESB is over €100,000 suposedly, so why should we protect them, giving that they have been creaming it at our expense for so long. How do they help the plain people of Ireland?

IMHO, the first to go should be RTE=Pravda minus any strategic parts. Let the private sector pay Pat Kenny's salary.

!
The national telephone infrastructure (which was paid by taxpunts) was sold off which put this country back a deacde in providing decent statewide BB.
It was asset stripped i think 3 times bought and sold and is worth practically nothing now and billions in debt and the infrastructure is delinquent and will take billions to put right.
UPC is available in parts of Dublin Limerick and Cork only and as for mobile BB, well it's not really BB at all, is it?

Whatever govt is next really should have the wits about them NOT to sell of strategic state assets, ie ESB Grid, Gas Grid etc

the groutch

they should be selling loss making operations, RTE & Dublin Bus spring to mind, last time I checked the ESB were turning a profit

hardcore

Mr. Bean. wrote: »

I agree completely. If Fine Gael took the foolish decision (which they will) to sell off semi state assets, the companies would go to rack and ruin. It was tried and tested before, The Telecom Eireann mess and Aer Lingus now too, look at how much of a state it's in.As a disastrous result of selling off these state assets, Jobs will be lost, as has/is happening with both eircom (which is in debt) and Aer Lingus.

I agree certainly with this, we would simply be losing money selling off a profiting state asset such as ESB.

Certainly, Some state assets in fact do cost the state a fortune, like Bus Eireann for example. Unprofitable state assets like this need to be reformed, yet still kept under state control.
It suits the state/society better to have someone working in an unprofitable state company then sitting on the dole.
Furthermore, Without state assets, The only income for the state is taxes... So where's Fine Gael going to get all the money? Taxes. They cry, moan and whinge about all the taxes FF brought in, but decline to say that they'll remove them. Whats more is, they can boast about "not increasing income tax" but instead they'll tax us in different ways. This "stealth taxing" as it was appropriately called by Michael Martin, is called so because FG are not straight with the electorate and do not give the full picture. However that's a different story.

This I dont agree with the statement on Bus Eireann. It is operating much better than IE and Dublin Bus. It has on several routes much cheaper and actually quicker travel times. It also now offers some direct services due to the motorways opening. I think however some services may need to be cut back unfortunately.

I find it ridiculous that despite the numerous examples of failed privatisation, that Fine Gael want to go ahead with it. Although, they do lately seem to not know what they want to do... Enda Kenny, what a intellegent, responsible, clever guy... I hope everyone seen how clear and concise he was to Brian Dobson today when asked about how many "frontline public servants" there were. There are "it depends on what your definition of a frontline service is" frontline service civil servants in this country. :rolleyes:

Well in fairness its not like we actually have an option is it really. We need to sell some state assets off that are not making huge profits for the state to have some money to spend in the economy. I see no point in holding on to some of the assets when there is no profit to them in the short term. We need to have some capital to invest into infrastructure and get people back into jobs.

wicklowwitch

Electricity is far to dear here and with peoples incomes been hit with higher taxes and wage reductions Electricity is fast becoming a luxury people cant afford. Something needs to be done anout this and the ridiculous wages E.S.B workers are on. The E.S.B workers and unions need a strong dose of reality and by selling it or some of it off maybe the way to do it.

hardcore

Yes electricity is very expensive but there is no switching of provider with a large amount of the population. Airtricity and Bord Gais offer cheaper rates and many still dont change energy provider. ESB will continue to be a monopoly until people see sense and look for better value in the market today.

Oh_Noes

It's truely a horrible idea.

It reminds me of a gambling addict who's gotten himself in such a mess that he's pulling the copper wires out of his walls in the hope of selling them to settle debts.

This is their big plan. And they really only announced it yesterday because they were forced to. Chilling stuff.

bassey

Anyone who thinks selling off the ESB is an idiot, simple as. Especially the amount of people that don't realise the segregation of the ESB and just few it as one big company. The most valuable part of the ESB is the network, the overhead lines and underground cables and transformer stations that bring power to your homes. And throughout Europe and indeed the world we have a very high standard of network with all the work thats been put into in the last number of years.

If the network was to be sold off it would just be asset stripped and not a penny would be put into maintaining and upgrading the lines/cables etc. and 10 years down the way we'll have power lines hanging on the ground much like Eircoms at the moment because there is no profit to be made from maintaining them, only difference is ESB line will kill people!

Also people don't seem to realise that every year the ESB pays millions to the government in a dividend due to it being a share holder.

joulter

from what i've read fine gael don't plan on selling off the infrastructure only ESB Customer Supply. The national grid would be kept in state ownership.

This is different to the eircom privatization as in that case the whole company was sold off infrastructure and all, which only led to asset-stripping and a joke of a broadband supply in the country.

I think the ESB needs a serious shake-up as the ceo gets something like €700,000+ a year which is insane money for a bankrupt country to be paying.

Ray Burkes Pension

There's a huge thread on this http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056177959

68 lost souls

I think its a great idea. They are keeping the grid which is the important part, energy is still going to be gerenated but by a private company and the government will be reinvesting the money in renewable energies and creating over 100,000 jobs in the energy sector with the capital raised from the sell off of the powerplants. We have the worlds largest resource of tidal wave energy which we have never bothered working on exploiting before and its about time we became a net exporter of energy and stopped relying on imports for it. We would also then have lower carbon tax and in the long term we are saving billions. Fair play to them.

Idbatterim

say esb was to be privatised, how much could we expect staff related pay and pensions to fall by?

donkey balls

The last few evenings I have been listening to the Last Word were they have had Brendan Ogle(ESB union guy)and Declan Ganly(Libertas fame) and both have agreed that to sell off the ESB to pay the bills of Nama etc would be a disaster.
You could not get more left wing/right wing than these two yet there agreeing on some aspects on why selling of state assets like the ESB to pay the bills would be a cluster f**K.

joulter

donkey balls wrote: »

The last few evenings I have been listening to the Last Word were they have had Brendan Ogle(ESB union guy)and Declan Ganly(Libertas fame) and both have agreed that to sell off the ESB to pay the bills of Nama etc would be a disaster.
You could not get more left wing/right wing than these two yet there agreeing on some aspects on why selling of state assets like the ESB to pay the bills would be a cluster f**K.

I would agree that selling it off to put the profits into the banks would be beyond retarded, but fine gael plan to sell it only when they can get the best price for it and then only use the money to create jobs and invest in renewable energy

donkey balls

I had that smug pr**K Leo call to my house a few weeks back I questioned him about the sale of state assets and what was the reason behind it and was he familar with Eircom and it's problems.
He then went on about some BS and that what I know about the ESB is wrong and that they send out propaganda:rolleyes: I would really like to see leo take on Brendan Ogle on the Last word as the former knows what he is talking about not some poxy TD who likes the sound of his own voice.

Poulgorm

As I understand it, what FG plan to do is sell off the power stations - but keep the cables (distribution and transmission) under state control.

But most of the ESB power stations are old and inefficient. Not worth much.

Similarly for Bord Gais. Sell off the sales/marketing arm, but keeping the pipes in state ownership.

Again, I don't think that the sales arm is worth much - margins there are very tight. The real money is when you have a monopoly on the pipes (network).

FG won't raise any meaningful sum for the state.

Pete_Cavan

Poulgorm wrote: »

As I understand it, what FG plan to do is sell off the power stations - but keep the cables (distribution and transmission) under state control.

But most of the ESB power stations are old and inefficient. Not worth much.

Similarly for Bord Gais. Sell off the sales/marketing arm, but keeping the pipes in state ownership.

Again, I don't think that the sales arm is worth much - margins there are very tight. The real money is when you have a monopoly on the pipes (network).

FG won't raise any meaningful sum for the state.

Endesa bought the former ESB plant at Great Island, Co Wexford, Tarbert, Co Kerry, Rhode in Offaly and Tawnaghmore in Mayo (total capacity of 1,068MW) for €450m. Last August they announced they would spend a further €450m upgrading these power stations.

Moneypoint power station provides our baseload energy, output 915 MW. It is coal-fired and the country's single largest emitter of greenhouse gases. It will need to be replaced in the next 10-15 years. It will cost billions to replace Moneypoint (should be replaced by nuclear plant IMO).

If it is a choice between receiving possibly over a billion from the sale of assets, or retaining the assets and footing a bill of billions for upgrading and maintaining those same assets, I know which option I would take. Also, by allowing private companies to replace our thermal plants by building a number of small nuclear plants we would seriously reduce our CO2 output, which would allow us to sell carbon credits internationally, creating further income.

Monty Burnz

bassey wrote: »

Anyone who thinks selling off the ESB is an idiot, simple as. Especially the amount of people that don't realise the segregation of the ESB and just few it as one big company. The most valuable part of the ESB is the network, the overhead lines and underground cables and transformer stations that bring power to your homes. And throughout Europe and indeed the world we have a very high standard of network with all the work thats been put into in the last number of years.

If the network was to be sold off it would just be asset stripped and not a penny would be put into maintaining and upgrading the lines/cables etc. and 10 years down the way we'll have power lines hanging on the ground much like Eircoms at the moment because there is no profit to be made from maintaining them, only difference is ESB line will kill people!

Also people don't seem to realise that every year the ESB pays millions to the government in a dividend due to it being a share holder.

FG are not proposing selling the network or any other vital infrastructure. Also, this 'paying a dividend' business is a total crock - what is the ROCE, how much of this is paid in dividends, and what is the industry norm? 'A dividend' is pretty meaningless.

Maj Malfunction

wicklowwitch wrote: »

Electricity is far to dear here and with peoples incomes been hit with higher taxes and wage reductions Electricity is fast becoming a luxury people cant afford. Something needs to be done anout this and the ridiculous wages E.S.B workers are on. The E.S.B workers and unions need a strong dose of reality and by selling it or some of it off maybe the way to do it.

Part of the reason electricity is so expensive here is that we generate electricity using oil and gas fired power stations and to a lesser extent peat, not that Unions help in the equation.

What we really need to focus on is renewable sources of electricity and I think we should build a nuclear power station. In the long term the Green's will tell you it has a carbon footprint similar to wind power anyway.

Ireland is not energy self sufficient. We use more electricity than we generate ourselves. We are happy to buy power at a premium from the UK and we want to build a power connector to France, why is that? So we can buy cheaper nuclear generated power off the French!

Buying electricity off the French is not the answer either, we still haven't dealt with the issue of not being self sufficient. Nuclear generated electricity would allow us to export what we don't use and provide cheaper electricity for generations of Irish people into the future.

Fear not thou it is unlikely to happen as we haven't had any leaders in Ireland since the foundation of the State and certainly our "leaders" of recent times have lacked vision and forward thinking!

donkey balls

So just say FG managed to sell off certain sectors of the ESB to a MNC how will that company make it more profitable?,Also listening to the Last word the other evening Brendan Ogle claimed that back in early 02 that the ESB was one of the cheapest providers of electricty untill the formation of the CER.
As I said in another post get the likes of Ogle&Varadaker on to the likes of the Last word to discuss the matter with actual facts to back up there case for and against the selling off,I'm sure motor mouth Leo will be put in his place.

Monty Burnz

donkey balls wrote: »

So just say FG managed to sell off certain sectors of the ESB to a MNC how will that company make it more profitable?,Also listening to the Last word the other evening Brendan Ogle claimed that back in early 02 that the ESB was one of the cheapest providers of electricty untill the formation of the CER.

That was because there was very little investment in infrastructure in the 80s and 90s, so the assets were 'sweated' like mad, resulting in artificially cheap electricity with no allowance for depreciation. The ESB invested several billion in the networks in the last decade or so.

Pete_Cavan

donkey balls wrote: »

So just say FG managed to sell off certain sectors of the ESB to a MNC how will that company make it more profitable?,Also listening to the Last word the other evening Brendan Ogle claimed that back in early 02 that the ESB was one of the cheapest providers of electricty untill the formation of the CER.
As I said in another post get the likes of Ogle&Varadaker on to the likes of the Last word to discuss the matter with actual facts to back up there case for and against the selling off,I'm sure motor mouth Leo will be put in his place.

ESB was a cheap provider of electricity because most of its power stations were built and paid for years ago. ESB had a huge head start on everyone else who had to build most of their generators. CER has forced the ESB to increase prices to encourage people to switch to Bord Gais and Airtricity to give the illusion of competition. We have very expensive energy prices because the industry is controlled by a state sponsered cartel. I say privatise the industry (the state can retain some energy gerenation assets and compete in the industry if it wants) and let the market do its thing.

irishh_bob

donkey balls wrote: »

The last few evenings I have been listening to the Last Word were they have had Brendan Ogle(ESB union guy)and Declan Ganly(Libertas fame) and both have agreed that to sell off the ESB to pay the bills of Nama etc would be a disaster.
You could not get more left wing/right wing than these two yet there agreeing on some aspects on why selling of state assets like the ESB to pay the bills would be a cluster f**K.

brendan ogle , the self proclaimed socilist who just happens to insist on an average 80 k salary for each of his esb workers , my blood boils whenever i hear that charlatan on the air pretending to represent those on social wellfare or other less well off sections of society , guy is a hypocrite of epic proportions

irishh_bob

donkey balls wrote: »

I had that smug pr**K Leo call to my house a few weeks back I questioned him about the sale of state assets and what was the reason behind it and was he familar with Eircom and it's problems.
He then went on about some BS and that what I know about the ESB is wrong and that they send out propaganda:rolleyes: I would really like to see leo take on Brendan Ogle on the Last word as the former knows what he is talking about not some poxy TD who likes the sound of his own voice.

leo is spot on and ogle is an obnoxious , agressive asshole who only gets airtime due to his combatitive style , the only reason the ESB is always in profit is due to the fact that they charge through the nose for thier product

whiteonion

west20s wrote: »

I am in my early 20s located in the west of ireland.
With the election drawing ever closer,there is one issue which i feel needs to be adressed,the impending sell off of the ESB.
It seems to me that in the near future,when the next government is in,that there will be room for negotiation with the IMF as they have implied
,but that this renegotiating will be for us to cough up more sooner.This has happend in other countries they have ''helped ''.
This will mean the sell off or ''privitisation'' of numerous state assets ,including the ESB.
I have not heard any politian deal with this,they seem to be managing to tip toe around it.
This is something FF and Cowen have known about as Brian cowen himself ,shortly before his axing,wanted to spend millions rebranding the ESB.
This could only be because they knew it would have to be sold off.

thank you ,


p.s... Maybe they werent the only ones foreseeing this,Airticity for example have already switched 500,000 customers from ESB surely substantually devaluing it,possibly for a takeover

Once you start properly privatising the utility market, expect prices to go to the roof.

Pete_Cavan

whiteonion wrote: »

Once you start properly privatising the utility market, expect prices to go to the roof.

No, if we retain the national grid (as per FGs plan) then energy producers are competing on the price of electricity alone, which would reduce prices. They would all be selling their product through the same grid, the product you receive (electricity) is identical from each producer and you are free to change supplier because there are no dis/reconnection fees as you still get it through the same cable. It would be more likely that prices to go to the floor because the only way to attract customers would be through lower prices.

mortimers

what ridiculous wages???? sick and tired of this crap. assumptions and second hand media fueled tripe! where have you received this info?? throwing around off the wall comments. these people have families and mortgages and work in some of the toughest conditions in the country to restore and supply power to ordinary decent hard-working people all hours 24 7 365. see would you blab those comments out at 3 or 4 am on a stormy winters night when these men and women work tirelessly?

bassey

Monty Burnz wrote: »

FG are not proposing selling the network or any other vital infrastructure. Also, this 'paying a dividend' business is a total crock - what is the ROCE, how much of this is paid in dividends, and what is the industry norm? 'A dividend' is pretty meaningless.

http://www.esb.ie/main/press/press-release413.jsp

Those dividends, i.e money that the ESB gives the government out of the profit it makes every year. And it's not like the government are continuously pumping money into the ESB, they're (as in us, the tax payer) just getting a return on the investment they (we) made when the ESB was started up.

Absurdum

hardcore wrote: »

Yes electricity is very expensive but there is no switching of provider with a large amount of the population. Airtricity and Bord Gais offer cheaper rates and many still dont change energy provider. ESB will continue to be a monopoly until people see sense and look for better value in the market today.

You claim that ESB is a monopoly, yet the previous sentence mentions two of their competitors

Monty Burnz

bassey wrote: »

http://www.esb.ie/main/press/press-release413.jsp

Those dividends, i.e money that the ESB gives the government out of the profit it makes every year. And it's not like the government are continuously pumping money into the ESB, they're (as in us, the tax payer) just getting a return on the investment they (we) made when the ESB was started up.

Thanks, I know what dividends are, I collect them myself from the companies I have holdings in. As per my earlier point, 'a dividend' is meaningless without know the other things I mentioned.

Monty Burnz

mortimers wrote: »

what ridiculous wages???? sick and tired of this crap. assumptions and second hand media fueled tripe! where have you received this info?? throwing around off the wall comments. these people have families and mortgages and work in some of the toughest conditions in the country to restore and supply power to ordinary decent hard-working people all hours 24 7 365. see would you blab those comments out at 3 or 4 am on a stormy winters night when these men and women work tirelessly?

The wages earned by the guys in power station ARE ridiculous. Some of those guys are on 120k per year. Totally nuts - simply because they are the ones in the best position to shut off the power. The wages/salaries throughout the rest of the business are good, but not outrageous.

Asis

the groutch wrote: »

they should be selling loss making operations, RTE & Dublin Bus spring to mind, last time I checked the ESB were turning a profit

For FG it's not about profit. They are ideological economic right-wingers. No state investment, no state companies. When the IMF asks FG to jump, FG say how high.

Asis

Kenny and FG are in a rush to sell off ESB, from which they can raise €4bn, they estimate. What is their policy on Ireland's €500bn worth of off-shore oil and gas, including fields that haven't yet been sold to Shell under super-liberal terms?

There can't be any doubt about that: as economic right-wingers, it'll be sold off to Shell or some other multinational under the most liberal terms, from which the Irish exchequer gains nothing.

Whatever about Ireland's being able to afford one Corrib oil and gas deal, we certainly can't afford another.

Monty Burnz

Asis, you realise that calling something 'right wing' or 'left wing' isn't actually a criticism?

I happen to think that right-wing economic policies are the most effective at creating jobs. One of the best examples of this is in Belgium - the Walloon community keep electing socialists and the Flemish community elect conservatives. The Walloon economy is in the toilet, and the Walloons take a large subsidy from the thriving Flemish community to continue their left-wing policies.

Anyway, that's for another thread. Suffice it to say that there is a very good economic argument for selling off the power generating/customer supply parts of the ESB and holding onto the network infrastructure, as proposed by FG.

Duiske

Absurdum wrote: »

You claim that ESB is a monopoly, yet the previous sentence mentions two of their competitors

Who is actually generating the power for Bord Gais and Airtricity ? Do they buy capacity from ESB at wholesale price and just sell it on ? Or one of the other power companies ?

Anyway, i would not be too comfortable with the sale of ESB Supply, at least not until there is more competition in terms of competitors generation capacity. At the moment ESB are capable of generating a little over 4,000mw at peak, while the other's combined (Synergen, Huntstown and Edenderry Power) are only capable of just over 800mw.

10belowzero

So the story goes on , ''competition'' +''free market force's'' ,tool's in trade of venture capitalist's , for the record - the E.S.B has not cost the taxpayer a red cent , borrowing and maintaining it's own finance's thru the year's and supplying the state , not only with cheap electricity , but also a considerable dividend every year.
We now have the dearest electricity charges in Europe , thank's to so called competition and free market forces .Why you may ask , because when the market was opened to competition , they could not find another company in Europe that could supply electricity as cheaply as the E.S.B.
The Irish solution to that was to increase price's by over 200% , whilst at the same time , preventing the E.S.B from being able to build or modernize it's generating capacity ,along with preventing it from competing on a level playing field with it's competitor's (the same as was done with Eircom).
Another really crazy thing about all this is , that the E.S.B can build as many generating plant's as it like's for other country's , as long as they don't build any here , now is that really Irish or what?.
So for the first time in this state's history , we are at the mercy of foreign investor's /interest's for the security of our country's power supply.
You only have to look to recent event's , with our so called partner's in Europe , even today EU citizen's were not being evacuated from Libya , they were German , French ,Italian citizen's.
All those that rattle on about so called competition and free market force's , should ask themselves , why were the bank's not left to the mercies of free market force's.
They were after all ,the bastion and lifeblood of this most self destructive creed of capitalism.No the real truth lie's behind the door's of Deutsche bank / B.N.P Paribas , Bank of America etc and if we had a government , with the ball's to default on the bank debt , with other government's following suit , the whole deck of card's that is free market capitalism would collapse , making what happened on Wall st in 2008/9 ( the collapse of Morgan Stanley /Freddie Mac /Fannie Mae ) look like a proverbial picnic.
The real truth is that the majority of the world's largest company's and trading block's are debt rich and asset poor,thank's to the practice's of venture capitalist's (they actually believed ,the more debt a company had , the better , in a nicely leveraged way).
And you can bet that Obama and Merkel pray at night , that the deck of card's that is the World economy and the tread it is hanging by , is not cut by another Bernie Madoff or maybe something as simple as a shopkeeper walking in to his local bank to withdraw 200 dollar's and starting another Wall street crash ,as what happened in 1929.
No leave the E.S.B alone and for the love of God and all that's sacred , let's start learning from history and more importantly from recent history ,or as George Santayana once said , we really will be condemned to relive the past.

Monty Burnz

I think you are trying to argue that capitalism doesn't work. It does. Socialism doesn't work - if it did, we'd all be learning Russian.

And you are trotting out the meaningless dividend argument again with the ESB with no context with regard to ROCE, typical industry margins, opportunity cost etc etc.

donkey balls

irishh_bob wrote: »

leo is spot on and ogle is an obnoxious , agressive asshole who only gets airtime due to his combatitive style , the only reason the ESB is always in profit is due to the fact that they charge through the nose for thier product

Leo is spot on :rolleyes:are you for real this is the man who wanted to give foreign emmigrants money to go home FFS,He is nothing more than a mouth peice a few weeks back he kicked off about ESB employees getting a discount of there bills,What about the pr**ks expenses subsidised canteen/bar in the dail etc.
I can tell you for fact when he called at my house and I Started to question him on his policy the FG handlers were quick to move him on,As for Brendan Ogle may I suggest you listen back to the Last Word podcasts with him&Declan Ganley by god the man comes across well and me being a person working for a MNC.

Nothingbetter2d

gk5000 wrote: »

IMHO, the first to go should be RTE=Pravda minus any strategic parts. Let the private sector pay Pat Kenny's salary.

why pay Pat Kenny a salary at all...he is a rubbish TV presenter and just as bad on the radio.

Nothingbetter2d

Absurdum wrote: »

You claim that ESB is a monopoly, yet the previous sentence mentions two of their competitors

it pretty much is a monopoly given that it owns most of the infrastructure.

Pete_Cavan

10belowzero wrote: »

So the story goes on , ''competition'' +''free market force's'' ,tool's in trade of venture capitalist's , for the record - the E.S.B has not cost the taxpayer a red cent , borrowing and maintaining it's own finance's thru the year's and supplying the state , not only with cheap electricity , but also a considerable dividend every year.

The only reason it is profitable is because most of the power stations were built in the middle of the last century. Most of those assets are thermal plants and will be obsolete in the 10-20 years. We (taxpayers) are going to have to pay the construction of new plants to replace these. We are looking at a bill of billions. Selling off these assets not only produces an income, it also removes expenditure by passing that expense onto someone else. Moneypoint is worth money to us if we sell it soon, but will cost us billions to replace it is 10 years time if we retain it.

10belowzero wrote: »

We now have the dearest electricity charges in Europe , thank's to so called competition and free market forces .Why you may ask , because when the market was opened to competition , they could not find another company in Europe that could supply electricity as cheaply as the E.S.B.
The Irish solution to that was to increase price's by over 200% , whilst at the same time , preventing the E.S.B from being able to build or modernize it's generating capacity ,along with preventing it from competing on a level playing field with it's competitor's (the same as was done with Eircom).

How do you expect new companies to compete in a market where the company who had a monopoly still controls most of the market (in terms of customers and production) and the new companies are starting from scratch. Only if ESB sold off their assets to competitors and opened up the market could you then see market forces in action.

10belowzero wrote: »

All those that rattle on about so called competition and free market force's , should ask themselves , why were the bank's not left to the mercies of free market force's.

The problem is the warped capitalist system we have in this country. The government distorts markets with tax breaks, etc. and yet expects the market to operate efficiently. In a capitalist system the banks would have been allowed to fall, but also a capitalist system would not have fuelled the property bubble the way our government did.

Monty Burnz

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

The problem is the warped capitalist system we have in this country. The government distorts markets with tax breaks, etc. and yet expects the market to operate efficiently. In a capitalist system the banks would have been allowed to fall, but also a capitalist system would not have fuelled the property bubble the way our government did.

There's a lot of truth in this - generally, any market the government has tried to manuipulate, they have totally ballsed up.

eoinbn

Mr. Bean. wrote: »

I agree completely. If Fine Gael took the foolish decision (which they will) to sell off semi state assets, the companies would go to rack and ruin. It was tried and tested before, The Telecom Eireann mess and Aer Lingus now too, look at how much of a state it's in.
As a disastrous result of selling off these state assets, Jobs will be lost, as has/is happening with both eircom (which is in debt) and Aer Lingus.

Of course jobs will be lost as semi-states employ thousands of people that they don't need- that doesn't help the economy! I know someone that complained to the ESB that their power planet was having a negative effect on their business- so the ESB hired them and gave them €70k a year even though they have zero qualifications. A while later his brother made the same complaint and now he is also on €70k and both are still running their businesses!

Aer Lingus is a perfect example of a GOOD privatisation. The company has been restructured over and over to get people out of their old semi-state practices. Flying to Britain cost hundreds of pounds in the 1980's, which would be thousands of euro's in today's prices.

Phone bills have also come down massively over the last 12 years due to the sale of Telecom Eireann. Part of the reason why we have a poor infrastructure is because we have a sparse population which makes it less cost effective to provide broadband. In cases like that the government needs to step in. I am not sure how people think semi-states work, it's as if people think they work for free! "Ah sure if we kept Eircom in state hands we could of had a world class BB service"- of course we could, if we had spent €5bn. Or if our government had vision we could of given tax breaks/incentives to provide BB instead of giving them to build hundreds of Hotels/estates that we didn't need.

K-9

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

The only reason it is profitable is because most of the power stations were built in the middle of the last century. Most of those assets are thermal plants and will be obsolete in the 10-20 years. We (taxpayers) are going to have to pay the construction of new plants to replace these. We are looking at a bill of billions. Selling off these assets not only produces an income, it also removes expenditure by passing that expense onto someone else. Moneypoint is worth money to us if we sell it soon, but will cost us billions to replace it is 10 years time if we retain it.

The plants still need replaced so the privatised Company will bear the costs or just delay the investment as long as possible, bit like Eircom. The expenses will be borne by us anyway, just not through taxes.

Monty Burnz

K-9 wrote: »

The plants still need replaced so the privatised Company will bear the costs or just delay the investment as long as possible, bit like Eircom. The expenses will be borne by us anyway, just not through taxes.

It depends on what the conditions of sale/licensing are. And with an interconnector to Britain and the EU, Irish producers would have rather a lot of competition and good incentives to keep prices reasonable.

Stabshauptmann

west20s wrote: »

I am in my early 20s located in the west of ireland.
With the election drawing ever closer,there is one issue which i feel needs to be adressed,the impending sell off of the ESB.
It seems to me that in the near future,when the next government is in,that there will be room for negotiation with the IMF as they have implied
,but that this renegotiating will be for us to cough up more sooner.This has happend in other countries they have ''helped ''.
This will mean the sell off or ''privitisation'' of numerous state assets ,including the ESB.
I have not heard any politian deal with this,they seem to be managing to tip toe around it.
This is something FF and Cowen have known about as Brian cowen himself ,shortly before his axing,wanted to spend millions rebranding the ESB.
This could only be because they knew it would have to be sold off.

thank you ,


p.s... Maybe they werent the only ones foreseeing this,Airticity for example have already switched 500,000 customers from ESB surely substantually devaluing it,possibly for a takeover

I dont know where to begin. There is a lot of freely available information, I suggest you read up more on the topic

K-9

Monty Burnz wrote: »

It depends on what the conditions of sale/licensing are. And with an interconnector to Britain and the EU, Irish producers would have rather a lot of competition and good incentives to keep prices reasonable.

Yes, but all this could be provided under state ownership and the state gets the long term benefits of it, rather than companies profiting. Competition can still occur.

I can see the advantages in both sides. One thing is for sure, we'll end paying for it anyway, left or right wing!