Libya - cost of repratriating irish citizens justified?

munchkin_utd

So, The department of foreign affairs is repatriating all Irish citizens from Libya, at the taxpayers cost.
http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/0223/libya.html

That includes Irish passport holders originally from Northern Ireland, who have never paid a cent in tax in the state of "Ireland".
Possibly also passport holders born off the island of Ireland.
And probably people born inside the 26 counties who are no longer tax payers.

How can it be justified to be so liberal with Irish taxpayers cash, to treat non tax payers the same as taxpayers?

The vote is already denied to the Irish abroad, largely because they are not tax payers.
Should the Irish state not extend this principle and deny non tax payers representation abroad.
Essentially, let any Irish person who isnt currently a tax payer to find their own way home, sparing the taxpayer any burden costwise.

After all, in every discussion about the vote for emigrants, "No representation without taxation" is hauled out as an argument.
Taking this to its logical conclusion there should be a minimum of representation to any irish person abroad who is not inside the tax system.

Because after all, they are no longer proper Irish, once the money stops flowing into the states coffers.
If you lose your vote by emigrating, what else should you lose in addition?

[EDIT (after 3 pages of comment)- for those of ye attacking the man, not the ball, this is written by me as a devils advocate type proposal, to see how far those of us working abroad should be excluded from a part in irish society and the priviledges afforded by it, and being a citizen. I'm living abroad with only an irish passport in my pocket, so it wouldnt be a vision I would look forward to if left stranded by the Irish government if in a crisis situation abroad]

Bottle_of_Smoke

No I think it is completely correct a nation strives to protect its citizens whilst abroad.

I also think Irish citizens should be entitled to a vote whilst abroad so the argument about taxation doesn't sway me at all.

who the fug

munchkin_utd wrote: »

So, The department of foreign affairs is repatriating all Irish citizens from Libya, at the taxpayers cost.
http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/0223/libya.html

That includes Irish passport holders originally from Northern Ireland, who have never paid a cent in tax in the state of "Ireland".
Possibly also passport holders born off the island of Ireland.
And probably people born inside the 26 counties who are no longer tax payers.

How can it be justified to be so liberal with Irish taxpayers cash, to treat non tax payers the same as taxpayers?

The vote is already denied to the Irish abroad, largely because they are not tax payers.
Should the Irish state not extend this principle and deny non tax payers representation abroad.
Essentially, let any Irish person who isnt currently a tax payer to find their own way home, sparing the taxpayer any burden costwise.

After all, in every discussion about the vote for emigrants, "No representation without taxation" is hauled out as an argument.
Taking this to its logical conclusion there should be a minimum of representation to any irish person abroad who is not inside the tax system.

Because after all, they are no longer proper Irish, once the money stops flowing into the states coffers.
If you lose your vote by emigrating, what else should you lose in addition?

No longer proper Irish, what the fug is proper Irish

By your logic a large proportion of the Irish in the eighties were not proper Irish cause they was working on the black


Anyway the people in Libya are more expats than emigrants and money does come back to Ireland were it gets taxed, think of them as a export earner

mike65

It should be beholden of any government to look after the best interests of its citizens regardless of how long they have been out of the country of which they are citizens. Anything less is "third world" thinking.

ihatetractors

Best m8's sister went over to work, coonsidering all her family pay taxes, i hope OP she's allowed travel home in your Ireland.... ohh wait your in Munich, bit ironic isn't it

munchkin_utd

btw, I'm Irish and living abroad, and my point is more a devils advocate proposal, rather than something I want to see.

But its not completely invalid.

It seems to be to be a contradiction that you sever your links/ you become estranged from Ireland by moving abroad, and you lose your vote as a sign that you no longer have a part in Irish society.

Yet Ireland comes to your rescue when abroad.

It just seems strange that as an Irish citizen you are entitled to unlimited assistance abroad at the expense of the taxpayer YET you arent allowed a say in the future of the country that (potentially) does so much for you.
Youre important enough and irish enough to save from oblivion, yet NOT important enough to be allowed to do something as simple as vote
(which 115 other countries DO allow abroad, in addition to helping you out of sticky situations)

Bottle_of_Smoke

munchkin_utd wrote: »

btw, I'm Irish and living abroad, and my point is more a devils advocate proposal, rather than something I want to see.

But its not completely invalid.

It seems to be to be a contradiction that you sever your links/ you become estranged from Ireland by moving abroad, and you lose your vote as a sign that you no longer have a part in Irish society.

Yet Ireland comes to your rescue when abroad.

It just seems strange that as an Irish citizen you are entitled to unlimited assistance abroad at the expense of the taxpayer YET you arent allowed a say in the future of the country that (potentially) does so much for you.
Youre important enough and irish enough to save from oblivion, yet NOT important enough to be allowed to do something as simple as vote
(which 115 other countries DO allow abroad, in addition to helping you out of sticky situations)

Yes it is stupid and illogical. Though the stupid part is not being allowed to vote whilst abroad.

So whilst it is illogical to not be allowed vote but receive the benefit of your state's protection, it is good that they are being illogical on this occasion.

ardmacha

The very idea of a passport is that it offers the protection of the state when travelling abroad.

The idea of voting is that you vote in the constituency where you live, if you choose to live abroad then you do not vote. It is not rocket science.

Please stop starting threads trying to justify people who have moved abroad still voting as if they had not made that choice.

zig

^^ agreed about the voting abroad thing, completely nonsensical for someone to have an input in choosing our government when they are not only NOT paying tax but they are not being affected in any way by the result. Can you imagine all these Irish ex pats in america that barely have an Irish accent let alone a clue about our politics that still hold passports voting for who runs our country

Bottle_of_Smoke

ardmacha wrote: »

The very idea of a passport is that it offers the protection of the state when travelling abroad.

The idea of voting is that you vote in the constituency where you live, if you choose to live abroad then you do not vote. It is not rocket science.

Please stop starting threads trying to justify people who have moved abroad still voting as if they had not made that choice.

Can see your point but I also think constituency voting should be done away with. I wholeheartedly disagree with your analysis of emigration and choice as a justification though- most people don't want to leave Ireland they just don't want to be on the dole or need more money than the dole to support themselves.

zig wrote: »

^^ agreed about the voting abroad thing, completely nonsensical for someone to have an input in choosing our government when they are not only NOT paying tax but they are not being affected in any way by the result. Can you imagine all these Irish ex pats in america that barely have an Irish accent let alone a clue about our politics that still hold passports voting for who runs our country

As above and you know maybe they would vote for someone more likely to turn the country into a place they could feasibly return to.

mikemac

If you get into trouble abroad such as riots or revolution or Tsunami or whatever, the Department of Foreign Affairs can offer you assistance through their officers.
If they can't as they don't have a presence then you can seek assistance at the embassy or consulate of another EU state.

But this thread seems to be another way to debate voting rights

zig

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

Can see your point but I also think constituency voting should be done away with. I wholeheartedly disagree with your analysis of emigration and choice as a justification though- most people don't want to leave Ireland they just don't want to be on the dole or need more money than the dole to support themselves.




As above and you know maybe they would vote for someone more likely to turn the country into a place they could feasibly return to.

granted I agree with doing away constituency voting, but I still cant see any logic in people abroad having a say , they are less informed and chances are they will not be returning, so unless they actually have proof that they are coming home, or maybe something like 3 friends/family members to vouch for them (i.e. sign something saying their opinion is valid as they will be coming home), at least that would weed out the permanent ex pats.

Bottle_of_Smoke

zig wrote: »

granted I agree with doing away constituency voting, but I still cant see any logic in people abroad having a say , they are less informed and chances are they will not be returning, so unless they actually have proof that they are coming home, or maybe something like 3 friends/family members to vouch for them (i.e. sign something saying their opinion is valid as they will be coming home), at least that would weed out the permanent ex pats.

I don't accept they are less informed. We have the internet nowadays.

Also I'd imagine the permanent ex-pats are very unlikely to vote? If anything we'd be getting votes from people who go to the trouble of getting a postal vote and therefore more likely to be the type of person who is informed.

JustinDee

Yeah, leave 'em there to face the consequences. Especially the TV spongers!

jonnysimples

In this scenario, taxation is, for me, an irrelevant issue.

The only thing that should be considered is whether or not these people are Irish citizens and if so, can their government do something to protect them.

Whether or not overseas people should be entitled to vote is an entirely separate issue and I actually think that to compare the two is in bad taste.

JustinDee

jonnysimples wrote: »

Whether or not overseas people should be entitled to vote is an entirely separate issue and I actually think that to compare the two is in bad taste.

I don't think its in bad taste. Just utterly stupid.

walrusgumble

munchkin_utd wrote: »

So, The department of foreign affairs is repatriating all Irish citizens from Libya, at the taxpayers cost.
http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/0223/libya.html

That includes Irish passport holders originally from Northern Ireland, who have never paid a cent in tax in the state of "Ireland".
Possibly also passport holders born off the island of Ireland.
And probably people born inside the 26 counties who are no longer tax payers.

How can it be justified to be so liberal with Irish taxpayers cash, to treat non tax payers the same as taxpayers?

The vote is already denied to the Irish abroad, largely because they are not tax payers.
Should the Irish state not extend this principle and deny non tax payers representation abroad.
Essentially, let any Irish person who isnt currently a tax payer to find their own way home, sparing the taxpayer any burden costwise.

After all, in every discussion about the vote for emigrants, "No representation without taxation" is hauled out as an argument.
Taking this to its logical conclusion there should be a minimum of representation to any irish person abroad who is not inside the tax system.

Because after all, they are no longer proper Irish, once the money stops flowing into the states coffers.
If you lose your vote by emigrating, what else should you lose in addition?

Before embarrassing your self any further, please refer to the Constitution and legislation on citizenship. It would be worth your while to make your self aware of the concept that this country until recently claimed all of the Ireland. You sound like a complete idiot to be honest and its insulting to Northerners who have always seen Dublin as their political home. Small minded partionist tosh. People who hold passports from Northern Ireland are more than passport holders, they are Irish Citizens and enjoy and should expect the safeguards provided by this State as me or you. With your attitude, I really do hope you dislike the notion of Irish Americans sending money "home" to Ireland. I am in no doubt you have family who left Ireland in decades before and who have nver returned, don't pay tax here, but if you questioned their nationalities they would set you straight. When time comes, and they pass away, you would be happy that the Foreign Affairs Embassy assists if neccessary in the repatriation of their bodies for burial in Ireland, should they wish.

If this was a complaint about a Minister forking out on himself, fine, but this is for the provision of assisting the Irish Citizens abroad. What do you want them to do, seek the help of the UK? That is exactly what the Foregin Department is for, not just for wining and dining in Europe and sign fancy treaties and the like. I suppose you would not want to help a Belfast person in Christchurch New Zealand? The money is set aside from the budget. So what do you want, let them come home in coffins instead?

Quite a number of Irish Citizens living in Ireland don't earn enough to pay taxes here. There are quite a wealthy elite living in Ireland who don't pay their far share of taxes either. Whilst I agree that it is a citizens duty to pay tax in whatever country they live in, its not a precondition to seek consulate help

phantom_lord

I'd be extremely disappointed if they didn't.

ninjasurfer1

walrusgumble wrote: »

its insulting to Northerners who have always seen Dublin as their political home. People who hold passports from Northern Ireland are more than passport holders, they are Irish Citizens and enjoy and should expect the safeguards provided by this State as me or you.

Any chance of them sending a few euro down south to help out their fellow irish citizens then?

Riskymove

ninjasurfer1 wrote: »

Any chance of them sending a few euro down south to help out their fellow irish citizens then?

the UK have given us a few billion in a bilateral loan

JustinDee

Tayto's Law will rear its dumb head in t-minus x number of posts*














*Tayto's Law doesn't actually exist. I just made it up. It can be attributed as an inevitability every time Ireland is being discussed on the web in forums like this. Some predictable and anonymous wally will always bring the potato blight of 1845-1951 into proceedings.

testicle

munchkin_utd wrote: »

So, The department of foreign affairs is repatriating all Irish citizens from Libya, at the taxpayers cost.
http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/0223/libya.html

That includes Irish passport holders originally from Northern Ireland, who have never paid a cent in tax in the state of "Ireland".
Possibly also passport holders born off the island of Ireland.
And probably people born inside the 26 counties who are no longer tax payers.

How can it be justified to be so liberal with Irish taxpayers cash, to treat non tax payers the same as taxpayers?

The vote is already denied to the Irish abroad, largely because they are not tax payers.
Should the Irish state not extend this principle and deny non tax payers representation abroad.
Essentially, let any Irish person who isnt currently a tax payer to find their own way home, sparing the taxpayer any burden costwise.

After all, in every discussion about the vote for emigrants, "No representation without taxation" is hauled out as an argument.
Taking this to its logical conclusion there should be a minimum of representation to any irish person abroad who is not inside the tax system.

Because after all, they are no longer proper Irish, once the money stops flowing into the states coffers.
If you lose your vote by emigrating, what else should you lose in addition?

What about the children?

walrusgumble

ninjasurfer1 wrote: »

Any chance of them sending a few euro down south to help out their fellow irish citizens then?

do they even have it?

OS119

i'm not sure i like the 'don't pay tax, don't get a say or get consular help' line, but i do have some sympathy with the sentiment.

i have a New Zealand passport, i was born in New Zealand - but i've only lived there for one of my 36 years, i've never voted in an NZ election, never paid a cent in tax to the NZ treasury and have no plans to change any of that.

if i was working in Libya, do any of you think the good folk of NZ should pay the cost of getting me out?

many of the Irish citizens currently in Libya will be in a similar - if marginally less extreme - situation. some will be people who 'normally' reside in Ireland but who happen to have taken this or that contract in Libya, but a good proportion will be people who have no more present and future connection to Ireland than i have to NZ. sending an already paid for asset is one thing - what happen if the situation escalates and, in order to get those Irish Passport holders out, some kind of limited military action needs to take place (perhaps the seizure of Tripoli airport, or a port facility, and then the securing of some land corridors so that people can actually get to those facilities), do we believe that Irish soldiers should risk their lives for people who, in administrative terms, may well be Irish, but who have long decided not to be 'of' Ireland?

yosemite_sam

munchkin_utd wrote: »

So, The department of foreign affairs is repatriating all Irish citizens from Libya, at the taxpayers cost.
http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/0223/libya.html

That includes Irish passport holders originally from Northern Ireland, who have never paid a cent in tax in the state of "Ireland".
Possibly also passport holders born off the island of Ireland.
And probably people born inside the 26 counties who are no longer tax payers.

How can it be justified to be so liberal with Irish taxpayers cash, to treat non tax payers the same as taxpayers?

The vote is already denied to the Irish abroad, largely because they are not tax payers.
Should the Irish state not extend this principle and deny non tax payers representation abroad.
Essentially, let any Irish person who isnt currently a tax payer to find their own way home, sparing the taxpayer any burden costwise.

After all, in every discussion about the vote for emigrants, "No representation without taxation" is hauled out as an argument.
Taking this to its logical conclusion there should be a minimum of representation to any irish person abroad who is not inside the tax system.

Because after all, they are no longer proper Irish, once the money stops flowing into the states coffers.
If you lose your vote by emigrating, what else should you lose in addition?

They should be left there, greed brought them out and they should be told to paddle their own cannoe

JustinDee

OS119 wrote: »

i have a New Zealand passport, i was born in New Zealand - but i've only lived there for one of my 36 years, i've never voted in an NZ election, never paid a cent in tax to the NZ treasury and have no plans to change any of that.

if i was working in Libya, do any of you think the good folk of NZ should pay the cost of getting me out?

Yes.
You're a Kiwi citizen and the NZ consulates and foreign office have an obligation to your safety and well-being when outside New Zealand.
By the way, whatever the Kiwis were charging at the time of your passport issue went to the NZ Treasury.

mike65

OS119 if you were up sh-i-te creek in some unexpected war zone who would you seek help from?

yosemite_sam

mike65 wrote: »

OS119 if you were up sh-i-te creek in some unexpected war zone who would you seek help from?

They were working in a dictatorship, they should have considered this before working out there

walrusgumble

OS119 wrote: »

i'm not sure i like the 'don't pay tax, don't get a say or get consular help' line, but i do have some sympathy with the sentiment.

i have a New Zealand passport, i was born in New Zealand - but i've only lived there for one of my 36 years, i've never voted in an NZ election, never paid a cent in tax to the NZ treasury and have no plans to change any of that.

if i was working in Libya, do any of you think the good folk of NZ should pay the cost of getting me out?

many of the Irish citizens currently in Libya will be in a similar - if marginally less extreme - situation. some will be people who 'normally' reside in Ireland but who happen to have taken this or that contract in Libya, but a good proportion will be people who have no more present and future connection to Ireland than i have to NZ. sending an already paid for asset is one thing - what happen if the situation escalates and, in order to get those Irish Passport holders out, some kind of limited military action needs to take place (perhaps the seizure of Tripoli airport, or a port facility, and then the securing of some land corridors so that people can actually get to those facilities), do we believe that Irish soldiers should risk their lives for people who, in administrative terms, may well be Irish, but who have long decided not to be 'of' Ireland?

Considering that many brave men and women of the Irish army have risked their lives in Cyprus, Lebabon and most recently Chad; countries with little connection to Ireland, surely, we would not have have difficulties in them doing their jobs in protecting people who are politically entitled to protection as Irish citizens. There is no half way house, you are an Irish citizen until you offically denounce same. You are entitled to assistance from this country when abroad. Its all or nothing. Again, wouldn't Ireland be declaring war on Libya? Some how I don't think that will happen (Gaffadi thought CJ Haughey was great by the way)

mike65

yosemite_sam wrote: »

They were working in a dictatorship, they should have considered this before working out there

Okay I'll change the question, suppose you got raped, mugged and abandoned without a penny or a piece of ID in some "difficult" but peaceful country who would you go to?

yosemite_sam

mike65 wrote: »

Okay I'll change the question, suppose you got raped, mugged and abandoned without a penny or a piece of ID in some "difficult" but peaceful country who would you go to?

I'd go to the British consulate, because I was born in London. They would assist me in getting back.

mike65

Do you hold a UK or Irish passport as a matter of interest.

JustinDee

yosemite_sam wrote: »

I'd go to the British consulate, because I was born in London. They would assist me in getting back.

No British passport though? Tough puddles. You're on your own.

Fratton Fred

mike65 wrote: »

OS119 if you were up sh-i-te creek in some unexpected war zone who would you seek help from?

I think OS119 spends quite a bit of his time up **** creek in a war zone

WhatNowForUs?

munchkin_utd wrote: »

So, The department of foreign affairs is repatriating all Irish citizens from Libya, at the taxpayers cost.
http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/0223/libya.html

That includes Irish passport holders originally from Northern Ireland, who have never paid a cent in tax in the state of "Ireland".
Possibly also passport holders born off the island of Ireland.
And probably people born inside the 26 counties who are no longer tax payers.

How can it be justified to be so liberal with Irish taxpayers cash, to treat non tax payers the same as taxpayers?

The vote is already denied to the Irish abroad, largely because they are not tax payers.
Should the Irish state not extend this principle and deny non tax payers representation abroad.
Essentially, let any Irish person who isnt currently a tax payer to find their own way home, sparing the taxpayer any burden costwise.

After all, in every discussion about the vote for emigrants, "No representation without taxation" is hauled out as an argument.
Taking this to its logical conclusion there should be a minimum of representation to any irish person abroad who is not inside the tax system.

Because after all, they are no longer proper Irish, once the money stops flowing into the states coffers.
If you lose your vote by emigrating, what else should you lose in addition?

God help the children and those retired!!

munchkin_utd

walrusgumble wrote: »

Before embarrassing your self any further, please refer to the Constitution and legislation on citizenship. <snip>
Quite a number of Irish Citizens living in Ireland don't earn enough to pay taxes here. There are quite a wealthy elite living in Ireland who don't pay their far share of taxes either. Whilst I agree that it is a citizens duty to pay tax in whatever country they live in, its not a precondition to seek consulate help

you didnt read the post slightly later on where I explained that I was putting forward the argument as devils advocate, a debating topic, rather than my own personal opinion.
(think about it, I live abroad, so would I want to be diserted by the government if i were to get into a pickle?)

I believe that the point (I made) is logically arguable, if you consider ireland to be the fiscally focused place that it sometimes seems. Where EVERYTHING regarding government policy, and society in general is decided on its cost in Euro. Where the governments job is to gather taxes and fill potholes but somehow never much more (i.e. the x case legislation is still nowhere to be seen- politicans are NOT legislators, they are pothole fixers, and the system is setup as such)
Of course it's morally wrong to leave citizens in the lurch by going down that road of seeing what people paid into the coffers before looking after them in a crisis.

I do sometimes wonder though, what do the people of (26 county) Ireland think about us Irish abroad? How entitled are we really considered to be to consular services, to possibly vote from abroad, to consider ourselves irish seeing as we arent back home to suffer with those who haven't left?
Many views on boards and elsewhere are very much "shut up, youre not paying taxes". It comes with debates on voting rights, or even expressing your opinion on mundane matters.

I was essentially wondering if the "you're not paying taxes" brigade would agree that us abroad should be left in the lurch.
Thankfully thats not the common view.

OS119

mike65 wrote: »

OS119 if you were up sh-i-te creek in some unexpected war zone who would you seek help from?

whoever i could ask - i'd be happy to become Tanzanian for the day if it would get me out of the sticky stuff. national pride doesn't stop live ammunition.

i'd ask any friendly nations embassy for help, and i hope that in such a situation they'd assist me because a) they're nice people, and b), they would like the UK to recipricate if the situation were reversed - but quite who would be required to provide that help is another matter.

personally, i my own situation, i would expect assistance from an EU or NATO embassy, and i'd be bloody pissed off if they refused to help - and i would like assistance from NZ or Australia, and tbh, think i'd get it as a UK citizen even without my NZ conection because of those two countries ties and relationship with the UK, but i wouldn't feel - even with my NZ connection - that they were under any kind of duty to help me.

i realise thats not overly clear, but then i suppose such things aren't...

yosemite_sam

mike65 wrote: »

Do you hold a UK or Irish passport as a matter of interest.

I have both, people on here have a big hang up on the British. When you scratch the surface we are all the same

OS119

Fratton Fred wrote: »

I think OS119 spends quite a bit of his time up **** creek in a war zone

well yeah, but not unexpected ones - then i'd have to have fcuked up well beyond the level of my usual incompetance!

BKtje

I think it's the countries duty to protect it's citizens.

I lived in Ireland for over 22 years, was a (income) tax payer for 10 of those years. During that time I never claimed the dole or claimed any other assistance (bar educational) and even if I had I don't think it should change anything. I moved to Switzerland 18 months ago, if civil war broke out here I'd definitely expect my country to help me in whatever way she could.

Just because I'm living abroad doesn't mean I'm no longer Irish.

AGC

They are not being repatriated. They are being flown to Malta and will make there own way from there.....Will you now moan that they won't pay for them to fly home from there???

They are being evacuated.....Not repatriated.

Also why should Austrian and other EU nations pay for Irish Citizens pay for Irish to be evacuated?

hatrickpatrick

munchkin_utd wrote: »

So, The department of foreign affairs is repatriating all Irish citizens from Libya, at the taxpayers cost.
http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/0223/libya.html

That includes Irish passport holders originally from Northern Ireland, who have never paid a cent in tax in the state of "Ireland".
Possibly also passport holders born off the island of Ireland.
And probably people born inside the 26 counties who are no longer tax payers.

How can it be justified to be so liberal with Irish taxpayers cash, to treat non tax payers the same as taxpayers?

The vote is already denied to the Irish abroad, largely because they are not tax payers.
Should the Irish state not extend this principle and deny non tax payers representation abroad.
Essentially, let any Irish person who isnt currently a tax payer to find their own way home, sparing the taxpayer any burden costwise.

After all, in every discussion about the vote for emigrants, "No representation without taxation" is hauled out as an argument.
Taking this to its logical conclusion there should be a minimum of representation to any irish person abroad who is not inside the tax system.

Because after all, they are no longer proper Irish, once the money stops flowing into the states coffers.
If you lose your vote by emigrating, what else should you lose in addition?

Dude.
People are DYING out there. Irish people are at risk of being among them.
The the umpteenth time, the economy is by far NOT the most important thing in the world. Humanity is infinitely more important - as indeed are many other things.

munchkin_utd

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

Dude.
People are DYING out there. Irish people are at risk of being among them.
The the umpteenth time, the economy is by far NOT the most important thing in the world. Humanity is infinitely more important - as indeed are many other things.

I've now edited the OP seeing as people dont read the inbetween posts, that its meant as a proposition of a quite argumentable point, and not my personally held standpoint (as one who lives abroad with only an irish pasport, that'd be a weeeee bit perverse to WANT to be left high and dry).

I maybe should have maybe made it more clear originally that i was throwing the ball in the air, rather than going on a solo run with it.

heyjude

To answer the question of whether the cost of repatriating or evacuating Irish citizens is justified, I think we need to know what the cost is actually likely to be. While a few thousand might seem reasonable, if the cost was to escalate into hundreds of thousands or more, then the decision to send our own aircraft would have to be questioned as we could perhaps have jointly chartered an aircraft with other EU nations.

But apart from the financial cost alone, there is also the extent to which we are prepared to put our defence force personnel at risk to attempt a repatriation or evacuation from a country which seems to be heading towards a form of civil war. There were reports of anti-aircraft weapons being used against protesters on the streets in recent days, so if I was a pilot that would make me wary about wanting to fly into airports in the country especially as Ghadaffi has been attempting to blame foreign governments/forces for the uprising against him. There's also the side issue, that while these aircraft are in Malta awaiting an opportunity to fly into Libya, their regular duties are being left shorthanded.

I suppose the bottom line is, what are the limits to which the state is expected to go to protect the lives of its citizens living around the world ? For example, would they mount an evacuation if a war erupted in Zimbabwe and a group of Irish students were trapped in the country ? Or does it matter whether the citizens in question are just visiting the country temporarily or whether they are engineers, doctors, nurses and teachers living in the country permanently ? There are many potentially dangerous countries around the world and this situation is likely to arise again, so perhaps we need some sort of policy for the future.

walrusgumble

munchkin_utd wrote: »

you didnt read the post slightly later on where I explained that I was putting forward the argument as devils advocate, a debating topic, rather than my own personal opinion.
(think about it, I live abroad, so would I want to be diserted by the government if i were to get into a pickle?)

I believe that the point (I made) is logically arguable, if you consider ireland to be the fiscally focused place that it sometimes seems. Where EVERYTHING regarding government policy, and society in general is decided on its cost in Euro. Where the governments job is to gather taxes and fill potholes but somehow never much more (i.e. the x case legislation is still nowhere to be seen- politicans are NOT legislators, they are pothole fixers, and the system is setup as such)
Of course it's morally wrong to leave citizens in the lurch by going down that road of seeing what people paid into the coffers before looking after them in a crisis.

I do sometimes wonder though, what do the people of (26 county) Ireland think about us Irish abroad? How entitled are we really considered to be to consular services, to possibly vote from abroad, to consider ourselves irish seeing as we arent back home to suffer with those who haven't left?
Many views on boards and elsewhere are very much "shut up, youre not paying taxes". It comes with debates on voting rights, or even expressing your opinion on mundane matters.

I was essentially wondering if the "you're not paying taxes" brigade would agree that us abroad should be left in the lurch.
Thankfully thats not the common view.

I admit I did not read your later post, because when I did, without seeing the devil advocate bit, I found it jolly strange that you would take such view. In my defence (i am a big advocate of people properly reading people's post(s) in full, practice what one preach eh) I had been reading other similar type posts and was getting very angry with people's attitudes lately.

Even if it was a serious / personal opinion I do not doubt its logic, making arguments on the constitution can swing both ways. It sounds cruel but its not mad cap stuff. It is a matter worthy of a party policy.However, I would strongly stand by what I said if meet with an argument/topic issue, that it should not occur, very strongly. whilst I sound close minded on this, I my self would not entertain "ifs" or "buts" on this issue ,(well I am not going to get into a punch up, so more, i would not entertain it without a robust defence)


You know damn well, that all politicans want to avoid the X case , even us mere mortals would really like to stick our heads in the sand on that delicate issue, its got nothing to do with money. If money was an issue, then we should not have a department of Foreign Affairs at all. Even politicans would not risk the wrath of deciding to let people die abroad without assistant , considering they help "fat cats" (oh of course, if its a HSE matter, well.....) You could hardly say that this would be a trival expenditure.

Someone else argued that they left for Libya for "greed". WTF? What were the jobs? Its ok to go to the US, Australia, UK etc? Prior to this, when was the last time we heard Gaffadi causing serious up roar and foreigners being at threat? (I have read some of the Human Rights reports)

Anyway, would British embassies assist? Do some embassies have an agreement to accept Irish abroad?

You will be glad to know that the Irish here, a majority, fully support the effortd made by the department in assisting the Irish broad/ They are our true embassadors abroad. Now don't messed it up lol. where else will half a village stay when they get off the boat, if john and mary were not established in eg Yonkers , Kilbride Road etc

I believe that Irish abroad, Irish Citizens now, not ancestry, sould be entitled to at least have a vote on the referendums and presidential elections, they still have the right to come home ya know

mike65

Fratton Fred wrote: »

I think OS119 spends quite a bit of his time up **** creek in a war zone

OS119 wrote: »

well yeah, but not unexpected ones - then i'd have to have fcuked up well beyond the level of my usual incompetance!

I did wonder if you were this chaps brother!

Bottle_of_Smoke

Say you were to lose your job and become homeless abroad - any obligation on your country to assist you getting home? If not - should there be?

OS119

mike65 wrote: »

I did wonder if you were this chaps brother!

i'm gonna get that!

my username, while it may look a little racey to anyone who'se seen that film, is actually an indicator of utter banality!

Sgt. Sensible

munchkin_utd wrote: »

So, The department of foreign affairs is repatriating all Irish citizens from Libya, at the taxpayers cost.
http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/0223/libya.html

The article does not say that taxpayers are funding the evacuation, merely that air corps planes are being used. Afaik, it is normal procedure for people or their employers to get a bill for evacuations in these sorts of situations. Being flown out by the air corps will probably cost a lot more than a commercial flight too.

Overheal

oil is cheaper than blood. why QQ about travel expenses when you're talking about the safety, and lives, of these people?

OS119

Overheal wrote: »

oil is cheaper than blood. why QQ about travel expenses when you're talking about the safety, and lives, of these people?

we do it in every other walk of life, why not this one?

the crews flying the IAC aircraft to tripoli today don't have the benefit of flying an aircraft fitted with a defensive aids suite. or a fighter escort. or a 'the ****s hit the fan, come and get me' back-up team.

because its too expensive.

Irish citizens who require very specialist medical treatment are flown to another country - taking more time than they have and requiring an over-water flight - because its too expensive to operate an appropriate facility for the number of patients it would treat.

so we risk peoples lives because of the cost of not risking their lives.