Enda Kenny - Capable?

Xcellor

I watched the debate last night as I am very much undecided. I refuse to accept the popular belief of anyone but fianna fail. This has made the job of the opposition so much easier and is one of the reasons they can get away with sweeping statements which lack detail. They also constantly just attack the previous governments record whenever it suits or they get stuck...

It would be much more clear cut for me if FG had a stronger leader. Endas performance did not fill me with confidence. He talks about renegotiating in Europe but can't make eye contact with the guy sitting next to him. "All the details are on our website" What kind of sh*tty answer is that. When I watched Enda last night he reminded me of George Bush Junior, his responses scripted and lacking any type of fire.

I went to his website last night to find out more information and found a ridiculous flash game of Enda kenny jumping Mario style. I mean seriously? The game was awful as well.

Purely in terms of leader, putting aside all history my preference would be

1) Michael Martin
2) Gilmore
3) Kenny

Liam Byrne

I wouldn't bother making eye contact with Michéal Martin either.

Re the Flash game, it's ridiculous, but not as ridiculous as going to the website of the "new improved FF" to find the discredited O'Dea staring back at you as part of the "new" team.

Bottom line is that the leader you put at #1 can't possibly have less credibility than Kenny.

ilovelamp2000

I have no idea why people think a performance in a TV debate makes anybody better than somebody else for the job.

All three of the leaders have serious credibility issues. Martin speaks as though he has never been in government, but we know he has been and as well as the ruination of the Irish economy he can add the beginning of the destruction of the Health Service and the destruction of ther pub trade to his list of achievements.

If I was a shareholder of a company that was deep in the mire and we needed a CEO - I'm not sure I'd be considering a man whose work experience consists of four years as a primary school teacher.

And I don't think much of Gilmore either but i think he's the least worst of the three.

Frankly we need much better than these three idiots.

Xcellor

ilovelamp2000 wrote: »

Frankly we need much better than these three idiots.

Agreed but we already know Enda is going to be the next leader of this country. I just don't see him having the backbone to make some difficult decisions... Even less so with Gilmore who has a much stronger personality.

meglome

Xcellor wrote: »

Agreed but we already know Enda is going to be the next leader of this country. I just don't see him having the backbone to make some difficult decisions... Even less so with Gilmore who has a much stronger personality.

And yet he's the only one even saying he'll tackle what needs to be tackled, well in any kind of realistic way.

He's the best option we've got right now. Would have much preferred Bruton but there you go.

Xcellor

Liam Byrne wrote: »

I wouldn't bother making eye contact with Michéal Martin either.

Re the Flash game, it's ridiculous, but not as ridiculous as going to the website of the "new improved FF" to find the discredited O'Dea staring back at you as part of the "new" team.

Bottom line is that the leader you put at #1 can't possibly have less credibility than Kenny.

If you firmly believe that someone is fundamentally to blame, you have conviction in what you are saying and confidence in yourself - you will look at your opponent and let him know that. Avoiding eye contact gives the following impressions.

1) He lacks confidence
2) He wants to avoid confrontation
3) He has something to hide

How are either 3 of those going to help him make tough decisions and argue Irelands case to the EU boys.

loldog

I'd prefer a Cabinet with Michael Noonan and Richard Bruton in it than anyone in FF. Garret FitzGerald said Enda will make a good chairman of government and that's good enough for me.:)

meglome

Xcellor wrote: »

If you firmly believe that someone is fundamentally to blame, you have conviction in what you are saying and confidence in yourself - you will look at your opponent and let him know that. Avoiding eye contact gives the following impressions.

1) He lacks confidence
2) He wants to avoid confrontation
3) He has something to hide

How are either 3 of those going to help him make tough decisions and argue Irelands case to the EU boys.

Not to state the obvious but he's not going to be sitting there alone in any kind of negotiation. I believe he's deputy leader of the Christian Democrat grouping in the EU.

He doesn't come across well on TV, yeah the crime of the century how will I ever go on.

Xcellor

meglome wrote: »

He's the best option we've got right now. Would have much preferred Bruton but there you go.

You would think after so many years in opposition they might be a bit better though. They've had years to perfect their game and get a proper leader and they failed to do that. They put their party ahead of the opinions of the people who consistently said Enda was not up for the job.

Timulus Package

I am on the opposite end of the scale to FG but Kenny won the debate handsdown last night.
Gilmore was OK but seened like he knew his place as second fiddle to Kenny.
Martin was terrible and sounded like the boy who crys 'no one will pass me the ball'.

meglome

Xcellor wrote: »

You would think after so many years in opposition they might be a bit better though. They've had years to perfect their game and get a proper leader and they failed to do that. They put their party ahead of the opinions of the people who consistently said Enda was not up for the job.

He's lacks charisma and he lacks the ability to make a good connection on the TV. As long as he does what he says he'll do I couldn't give a flying fúck about the charisma.

gandalf

To be honest I have worked for men with the charisma of Enda Kenny before and while they weren't the most inspirational of leaders they were good managers who surrounded themselves with the people who had the additional skills that they lacked. I see this with Enda Kenny.

While I would prefer someone else as leader of FG and I do believe they would do better in this election if they did have someone other than Enda but I do see an absolute gulf of class between them and the outgoing government in the people they have on the Front Bench. That and the fact they have some of the same reform ideas for the political system and health service that I have come to believe in is why they are getting my first preference on Friday.

I certainly think that Enda is a more capable leader than a man who sat in Government for 14 years and only comes up with new ideas on reform and job creation when a gun is put to his parties head. As has been said before what the hell was Michael Martin doing for the last 14 years, sitting in the corner with a Dunce hat on his head sucking his thumb?

Auctionmcd

Timulus Package wrote: »

I am on the opposite end of the scale to FG but Kenny won the debate handsdown last night.
Gilmore was OK but seened like he knew his place as second fiddle to Kenny.
Martin was terrible and sounded like the boy who crys 'no one will pass me the ball'.

Ok the worst in the debate was Enda Kennt, his 5 point plan was proven to lack depth and he was the same. When he was pushed on his plan he refused to answer on most occasions and when he did answer he was torn apart. His plans are nonsensical in many areas and have no costings.

Michael Martin was incredible, he seemed to have answers to most issues BUT why does he think quoting himself that people will view him as 'CREDIBLE and HONEST'. He forgets he had 14 years to implement all these and did nothing.

Gilmore to be fair had costings for everything and had more depth than Kenny. He didnt get involved in the bar room brawling of the other 2. Of all the debates I think this one belonged to Gilmore whilst Martin was second but that is meaningless as he lacks credibility, whilst Kenny was a poor third with his scripted '5 Point Plan and the best team' was torn to shreds.

Dont think that this will prevent Kenny being the next Taoiseach but god help us all when this happens.

ednwireland

Xcellor wrote: »

Agreed but we already know Enda is going to be the next leader of this country. I just don't see him having the backbone to make some difficult decisions... Even less so with Gilmore who has a much stronger personality.

and any leader in the last 14 years has, come on ffs wake up, they have kicked every difficult decision into touch for 14 years (HSE anyone) even when the country has been in the direst straights, they havent made the difficult decisions even the imf coming was forced on them by the eu.

you think martin, if he was taosaich, would be any different, i dont think so, the country will just get worse as they maintain their own and friends jobs and pay


thought enda did well btw (only cauyght the last 20 mins) for what it was worth nothing of any consequence was discussed so a waste of time and miriam was dreadful as a moderator

MaceFace

The media would have you believe you live in Libya or Egypt where we are run by a dictator with complete autonomy.

I thought Kenny was very very poor with Ursula on Monday night and for parts of last night I thought he was just poor.

The problem though is he is the man to beat so you have the machines of FF, Labour, and the rest with their guns set firmly on him, with every word said and written under a microscope.

Last nights debate was a great example. Do you remember Martin explaining anything about his policies? All I remember is he has details and plans but never really said what they were.
All last night was, was a debate on FG and their policies, and I have no doubt if Martin was the Taoiseach-elect, his policies would be equally hammered and he would be equally as poor.

I am still flabergasted at anyone who would consider giving FF a vote. I can only assume that anyone who will vote FF has been reasonably insolated from the pain within the country today.
I tell you what you should do - go down to Dublin Airport and spend half a day in the departure hall. See the real face of pain and suffering of parents seeing their children leave the country for good.
If you don't have kids, imagine your father having to move to Scotland to get a job and having to leave his family at home (caller on Pat Kenny yesterday).

If they are not held to account for the mistakes they have made, what is to stop them from repeating them in future?

Then again, maybe it was all Lehmans fault......=-(

InigoMontoya

Xcellor wrote: »

If you firmly believe that someone is fundamentally to blame, you have conviction in what you are saying and confidence in yourself - you will look at your opponent and let him know that. Avoiding eye contact gives the following impressions.

1) He lacks confidence
2) He wants to avoid confrontation
3) He has something to hide

How are either 3 of those going to help him make tough decisions and argue Irelands case to the EU boys.

I think you're misreading this. Last night Kenny was clearly trying to look dignified and "above the petty squabbling" of the other two, and he was largely successful at this*. Not looking at Martin (in particular) was part of that, and in the end we saw Martin getting quite heated, leaning in towards Kenny etc. If you're going to analyse body language I don't think that looks great.

*Helped of course by the fact that Gilmore was much nicer to FG last night.

Overall if you looked at last night purely as a debate, you could say that Martin "won". But in the overall context of this election I think FG will be fairly happy with what was mainly a solid performance. Martin's aggressiveness last night may play well to those inclined to FF, but risks putting off some others.

Now that Kenny has got through the debates pretty much unscathed, FG should be pushing their other key front-bench people to the forefront as much as possible for the rest of the campaign (which is just today really I suppose?).

Xcellor

I understand how some are saying that the strong team behind him will help. I am just concerned about who will end up leading the country. Is he going to be another Bush style puppet who is scripted and given directions.

His likely coalition partner also worries me, Gilmore is much more stronger in personality than Enda. Will Enda be strong enough to say "F*ck off gilmore. Job cuts in PS now are the only option".

InigoMontoya

Well, I dunno about that comparison since we're not electing a US-style president. And it won't just be Enda and Eamon sorting things out between the two of them.

The debates highlight personalities. One could also argue that over the last few weeks Kenny has been much more astute at the political game than Gilmore. (I know running an election campaign is different than being in government, but so is a debate).

On your original point, I do think there were times last night when Kenny should have responded a bit more strongly and directly to Martin, he did let Martin talk him down a couple of times, but I guess he stuck to his tactic of not getting drawn in too much.

The most worrisome thing about Kenny is not so much his debating skills as his grasp of the detail of issues, which sometimes appears alarmingly shallow.

Seres

i am one of the undecided voters also and forced myself to watch the debate to offer me some direction . I thought it was terrible , Kenny cant go beyond the script , Martin was obviously the best debater but lacks any credibility because of his/FF legacy and Gilmore came out looking the best because of the above mentioned failings of the other two and not for anything amazing that he said
I am totally disillusioned and will vote for none of the three main parties . All of the manfestos lack credibility because of their expected growths rates. They talk about reform to politics but still they are coming out with the same rhetoric . I think the debate could have been over in 20 mins honestly , because for me the real issue is how are we goin to deal with the bank crisis , they all mentioned renegotiate the terms and look for a lower interest rate , there was no real detail given here.
The thought of Enda Kenny negotiating on our behalf with the ECB and IMF is very worrying !:(

gandalf

Seres wrote: »

The thought of Enda Kenny negotiating on our behalf with the ECB and IMF is very worrying !:(

I would be under the impression that whoever is the Minister for Finance will be leading that negotiation. If that is a FG majority Government then that would be Michael Noonan, probably backed up by Richard Bruton and if elected Peter Matthews. From my perspective that would be an incredibly strong negotiating team.

johngalway

I believe he is more than capable. Now, I will be voting FG but I'm not a member of the party. The reason I think he's a good man for the job is the progress he's made with Fine Gael. Every election since the "meltdown" he's increased the FG vote. Largest locally elected party, largest number of European seats of any Irish party. The national polls now indicate FG will be the largest nationally elected party.

As FG leader he must make those decisions as to what have been the best strategies to get to those marks. Obviously along with advice from party members and advisers - the same as any other leader. But those successes indicate he can and does take the right decisions for FG. He picks the right people for the right jobs and lets them get on with it.

Yet for so many years we've had bitching about the style lacking substance of the likes of Bertie. Now, I believe, we have substance, and more bitching. Go on bended knee and ask Bertie back if ye dislike Enda that much. Sure he done a great job.

Didn't he.

gandalf

gandalf wrote: »

To be honest I have worked for men with the charisma of Enda Kenny before and while they weren't the most inspirational of leaders they were good managers who surrounded themselves with the people who had the additional skills that they lacked. I see this with Enda Kenny.

While I would prefer someone else as leader of FG and I do believe they would do better in this election if they did have someone other than Enda but I do see an absolute gulf of class between them and the outgoing government in the people they have on the Front Bench. That and the fact they have some of the same reform ideas for the political system and health service that I have come to believe in is why they are getting my first preference on Friday.

I certainly think that Enda is a more capable leader than a man who sat in Government for 14 years and only comes up with new ideas on reform and job creation when a gun is put to his parties head. As has been said before what the hell was Michael Martin doing for the last 14 years, sitting in the corner with a Dunce hat on his head sucking his thumb?

I'm actually surprised Enda lasted so long before stonewalling last night.
He's no good on media,thats why the guys wanted to get rid of him.
He's fine in the background though drumming away.

I found Martin arrogant last night as usual,wanting to forget his 14 years in government and exceptionally arrogant in taunting Enda that all he had to say was 14 years in government.

Newsflash Micheál-people do know you were in government for 14 years and that you twiddled your thumbs in the last 2 whilst the country went down the swanny.

Gilmore did well last night,theres no question about that.I'm not generally keen on Eamon Taxmore though.

MaceFace

gandalf wrote: »

I would be under the impression that whoever is the Minister for Finance will be leading that negotiation. If that is a FG majority Government then that would be Michael Noonan, probably backed up by Richard Bruton and if elected Peter Matthews. From my perspective that would be an incredibly strong negotiating team.

The idea of negotiations is a bit overdone. Before any "negotiations" happen, the exact position of each side will be well understood, and the idea that a few people go into a room, one side demands A and the other demand B is not really the way it will happen.
We are the ones with our begging bowl out and I don't see it credible that we threaten to default if we don't get our way.
The only card we have to play is to make them undetstand the folly of the current strategy.
The problems and proposed solution will be outlined in the documents prepared as part of any "negotiations" and it will be prepared by the government experts (not politicians).

As for Peter Matthews being involved in any way - please NO. I used to really respect him but he is the most arrogant candidate I have seen in this election (and I will be voting FG!).

LordSutch

Kenny may not be Albert Einstein, and yes he is wooden, predictable, and maybe even boring, but his quality lies with his cool, calm, calculated & collected approach (last night being a prime example), he is not a great debater, he's not one for one liners, he is not even a great thinker, but he is a steady pair of hands, he is the figurehead of Fine Gael, with his main asset being a good team backing him up!

We have had good talkers, good debaters, capable of making witty asides, and where have they got us? (Boom & Bust) is where we have ended up. Enda will steady the ship hopefully, and with a little help from his team he will do the business in Europe & cut us some slack.

Crybabygeeks

Personally I would love to see a charismatic, passionate Taoiseach who can capture the imagination of the public and lead the belief that we can get out of this utter mess. However, I think it is clear that this will not be happening at this election.

What I do see though is a honest, hard working man who is surrounded by a capable team. That can be said for both Kenny and Gilmore but I think there's more depth and strength in the FG party. I do believe that Kenny has integrity- something which is completely lacking in FF and will be for many years to come.

We had a charismatic, popular and apparently capable leader in Bertie Ahern and look where that led us.... I dont think anyone wants to go there again.

sealgaire

Sure his mother is in good condition :-) Like an oul car

jmayo

Xcellor wrote: »

I watched the debate last night as I am very much undecided. I refuse to accept the popular belief of anyone but fianna fail. This has made the job of the opposition so much easier and is one of the reasons they can get away with sweeping statements which lack detail. They also constantly just attack the previous governments record whenever it suits or they get stuck...
...

Purely in terms of leader, putting aside all history my preference would be

1) Michael Martin
2) Gilmore
3) Kenny

Ah FFS.
You are undecided and you reckon martin would be best leader.
Come on this is ther guy that sat in dept of Health at the beginning of the HSE.
Did he respond to Kenny's point about him telling everyone in 2001 waiting lists would be a thing of the past or the wastage of PPARS ?
Did hge repsond to Gilmore who said look at the health service we have after all the boom we had ?

This was the guy who was bleating about meeting people in Silicon valley when he was in enterprise, but he neglected to mention Fás were wasting millions on junkets and had a budget of upto a billion when we supposedly had zero unemployment ?

This was the guy who sat at cabinet for the entire time of the last three ff led governments backing every move by bertie and biffo and yet somehow now talks of sweeping reforms.
This is the guy that said he would reform ff, but lo and behold he brought the slanderer, liar and defamation expert back to the front bench.

Xcellor wrote: »

Agreed but we already know Enda is going to be the next leader of this country. I just don't see him having the backbone to make some difficult decisions... Even less so with Gilmore who has a much stronger personality.

So you want a leader with a strong personality who will show backbone and stand up to others ?
I presume an extension of that is that he and the party he leads will do things even if that are unpopular ?

Xcellor wrote: »

You would think after so many years in opposition they might be a bit better though. They've had years to perfect their game and get a proper leader and they failed to do that. They put their party ahead of the opinions of the people who consistently said Enda was not up for the job.

But here you want a party and presumably a leader that buckles to media and public opinion, which I would say is directly opposite to what you want above ?

At one point in the heave Kenny looked dead and buried, but he fought back, he outmaneouvered his much vaunted enemies and then he was smart enough he needed them in cabinet and also the old adage of keeping your enemies closer.
To me that shows a lot more about him than that supposed debate last night.

Auctionmcd wrote: »

Ok the worst in the debate was Enda Kennt, his 5 point plan was proven to lack depth and he was the same. When he was pushed on his plan he refused to answer on most occasions and when he did answer he was torn apart. His plans are nonsensical in many areas and have no costings.

Michael Martin was incredible, he seemed to have answers to most issues BUT why does he think quoting himself that people will view him as 'CREDIBLE and HONEST'. He forgets he had 14 years to implement all these and did nothing.

mehole martin was incredible?
No he just barracked, interrupted and argued.
He didn't have any answers, he just tore at others, he is a more skilled debater.

If he did have answers then why didn't he bother rolling out some of those answers over the last 14 years. :rolleyes:

Auctionmcd wrote: »

Gilmore to be fair had costings for everything and had more depth than Kenny. He didnt get involved in the bar room brawling of the other 2. Of all the debates I think this one belonged to Gilmore whilst Martin was second but that is meaningless as he lacks credibility, whilst Kenny was a poor third with his scripted '5 Point Plan and the best team' was torn to shreds.

I am disappointed that Kenny and FG aren't more honest in the fact that they either have to force redundancies and/or paycuts in the public service.

It has to happen and the really scary thing is not that Kenny will be leader, it is that Labour will be their with their union buddies batting to make sure that the last people to suffer will be their members.

Auctionmcd wrote: »

Dont think that this will prevent Kenny being the next Taoiseach but god help us all when this happens.

Do people actually think that Kenny will run every department personally ?
Do people think he will turn up for meetings with the ECB/EU on his own with nothing bar an Aldi bought electronic translator ?

Day to day the country is really run by civil servants who are meant to be controlled by government ministers who sit at cabinet which is led by the taoiseach.
Now if the taoiseach can find enough decent people to be ministers to control each department then that is more than half the battle.

What we have had of late is well paid half assed ministers who absolved themselves of all responsibility by outsourcing stuff to some quangoe.
Dept of health and transport being prime examples of this.

Somehow I don't think Kenny is as arrogant as his predessor who exlaimed things would be done his way and who appointed such luminaries as mary coughlan, noel dempsey, mary harney to government ministeries.

petroltimer

Auctionmcd wrote: »

Ok the worst in the debate was Enda Kennt, his 5 point plan was proven to lack depth and he was the same. When he was pushed on his plan he refused to answer on most occasions and when he did answer he was torn apart. His plans are nonsensical in many areas and have no costings.

Michael Martin was incredible, he seemed to have answers to most issues BUT why does he think quoting himself that people will view him as 'CREDIBLE and HONEST'. He forgets he had 14 years to implement all these and did nothing.

Gilmore to be fair had costings for everything and had more depth than Kenny. He didnt get involved in the bar room brawling of the other 2. Of all the debates I think this one belonged to Gilmore whilst Martin was second but that is meaningless as he lacks credibility, whilst Kenny was a poor third with his scripted '5 Point Plan and the best team' was torn to shreds.

Dont think that this will prevent Kenny being the next Taoiseach but god help us all when this happens.

just to say i'm completely neutral, but i thought Kenny won last nights debate quiet easily,,

Caribs

Agree that Kenny's performance wasn't great last night but totally agree with many of the posters that we don't want a performer leading the government.

I'd be quite happy with a wooden nerd lacking any charisma what so ever if it will get us out of this mess quickest.

I think that we as a country need to rethink how we vote in general elections making politicians accountable and if they don't deliver we vote them out instead of party loyalties that we have done for generations.

For FF to talk about honesty and integrity is an insult to all of us and they will hopefully reap the rewards for their incompetence on Friday. However if FG or FG/LAB make a mess of it then they too should be consigned to the opposition benches in the next election and so on. May take many years before the TD's cop on that we actually expect them to earn their salaries and I'm probably being too idealistic but there you go!

Drumpot

gandalf wrote: »

To be honest I have worked for men with the charisma of Enda Kenny before and while they weren't the most inspirational of leaders they were good managers who surrounded themselves with the people who had the additional skills that they lacked. I see this with Enda Kenny.

While I would prefer someone else as leader of FG and I do believe they would do better in this election if they did have someone other than Enda but I do see an absolute gulf of class between them and the outgoing government in the people they have on the Front Bench. That and the fact they have some of the same reform ideas for the political system and health service that I have come to believe in is why they are getting my first preference on Friday.

I certainly think that Enda is a more capable leader than a man who sat in Government for 14 years and only comes up with new ideas on reform and job creation when a gun is put to his parties head. As has been said before what the hell was Michael Martin doing for the last 14 years, sitting in the corner with a Dunce hat on his head sucking his thumb?

I agree to a large degree, but I feel we are throwing a hail Mary at Enda and hoping that he is better in the backround then he is in the foreground. I dont care if he can debate or discuss party policies once he can choose the right people to do the right jobs.

What is dissapointing is that, if indeed this is his greatest strength he should of let it be known that he represnts a new kind of leader that the country has been lacking. One that is not afraid to take advice from those who are better educated in fields he is not. One who will send in the best people (not just friends/allies in party) to negotiate on Irelands behalf. Instead we got pre learned scripts read out religiously and we learned little about what Kenny is truely about. .

I really hope I am wrong about Kenny. I hear he is a really nice man in person, is a good deligator and of strong character. As a voter I just needed to hear him speak of the kind of leader he will be and I always felt FG gagged him to a large degree. Instead of seeing the true Enda, we saw what FG thought we wanted to see. In the absence of true leadership or true reform from any party I will be voting between the 8 Independents in my constituancy.

PGL

Please forgive my ignorance for what is most likely a stupid question:

We all except that FG will pick up the majority of seats in this election. However why is it set in stone that Enda becomes taoiseach by default? He is the leader of the current crop of FG TDs as a result of a vote amongst those TDs (however it is fair to say that a considerable amount of the FG TDs may not actually support Enda e.g. Leo, Lucinda, Richard etc....) However when the new batch of FG TDs enter Leinster House, shouldn't there be a new vote amongst them to check and see who the majority support as leader, aka the taoiseach?

I am leaning towards giving FG my vote, but the thoughts of Enda steering the wheel is making me think twice......

damoz

meglome wrote: »

Not to state the obvious but he's not going to be sitting there alone in any kind of negotiation. I believe he's deputy leader of the Christian Democrat grouping in the EU.

He doesn't come across well on TV, yeah the crime of the century how will I ever go on.

J

Just to be very clear - he is a VP of the CDs. But thats by default, as the party leader, not by any special talents he has. There are in fact 10 vice presidents. Talk about small government

http://www.epp.eu/party.asp?z=5E5D

ECDUNNE

The first point that people need to realise is that Enda is not a media spokesperson, he has no need to be. What he has done very successfully over the last number of years is manage a team of people. If you owned a gigantic corporation would you rather have a person at the helm who could manage people or who looked good in front of tv cameras?

Coming from a background of debating and public speaking, I felt that Enda did much of what I would have done if faced with his position. I woul have ignored Michael Martin, who barely deserved to be in the debate, and let him behave in the manner that he did, squabbling, leaning forward, trying to jump on every point, and finally becoming visibly irrate.

Mr Kenny should prehaps nailed Mr Martin on several points, but then again he's running a national election campaign, and probably didn't have hours to give to preparing for the debate. One point he should really have hammered Mr Martin on was the HSE and the waste accrued there in.

Mr Martin managed to come across as having detailed figures for his plan, if this was not the case I would have to question why he was in politics. His party has been in power for the last term and as such have had ministers presiding over the various departments, obviously ministers should be able to get to hand various money saving schemes for the departments they are charged to run.

The last and final issue people need to consider is that unless you live in one of the party leaders constituencies you are not voting for them. You are voting for the candidate(s) in your constituency that you would most like to see represent you.

Drumpot

PGL wrote: »

Please forgive my ignorance for what is most likely a stupid question:

We all except that FG will pick up the majority of seats in this election. However why is it set in stone that Enda becomes taoiseach by default? He is the leader of the current crop of FG TDs as a result of a vote amongst those TDs (however it is fair to say that a considerable amount of the FG TDs may not actually support Enda e.g. Leo, Lucinda, Richard etc....) However when the new batch of FG TDs enter Leinster House, shouldn't there be a new vote amongst them to check and see who the majority support as leader, aka the taoiseach?

I am leaning towards giving FG my vote, but the thoughts of Enda steering the wheel is making me think twice......

He will be leader of FG leading them into power, therefore why would they have a vote when in power to see if they still want him as leader ?

I take your point, but FG are no differant to most parties and FF (much to the ignorance of many boardies) in that the party always comes first when it comes to making big decisions like this.

Until the Irish people start demanding to always be the parties No 1 priority (and stop benchmarking our incoming government with the last) we will be left with this kind of political culture.

Drumpot

ECDUNNE wrote: »

The first point that people need to realise is that Enda is not a media spokesperson, he has no need to be. What he has done very successfully over the last number of years is manage a team of people. If you owned a gigantic corporation would you rather have a person at the helm who could manage people or who looked good in front of tv cameras?

Coming from a background of debating and public speaking, I felt that Enda did much of what I would have done if faced with his position. I woul have ignored Michael Martin, who barely deserved to be in the debate, and let him behave in the manner that he did, squabbling, leaning forward, trying to jump on every point, and finally becoming visibly irrate.

Mr Kenny should prehaps nailed Mr Martin on several points, but then again he's running a national election campaign, and probably didn't have hours to give to preparing for the debate. One point he should really have hammered Mr Martin on was the HSE and the waste accrued there in.

Mr Martin managed to come across as having detailed figures for his plan, if this was not the case I would have to question why he was in politics. His party has been in power for the last term and as such have had ministers presiding over the various departments, obviously ministers should be able to get to hand various money saving schemes for the departments they are charged to run.

I dont believe you need to be good at debating if you are discussing points that are close to your heart and that you genuinley believe in. Kenny obviously spoke the words he was told to say which is in no way encouraging, no matter how its spun.

The last and final issue people need to consider is that unless you live in one of the party leaders constituencies you are not voting for them. You are voting for the candidate(s) in your constituency that you would most like to see represent you.

You see this is what annoys me about politics and the concept of it. People seem to think that the correct strategy is the one that gains the most votes for a particular party as opposed to actually trying to out manouvre your opponent with honesty, integrity and by showing people that you are not afraid to tell the citizens what you truely represent (as opposed to what you think they want to hear).

Hearing about how much FF got wrong gives people no clue as to why that makes you a better candidate. It only gives people some satisfaction that Martin gets pulled up on a point that pretty much the dog in the street knows (so nobody is any the wiser).

Why cant we have open, honest politics where our leaders are not afraid to actually discuss what they (personally and as a party) have to bring to the table.

MaceFace

Drumpot wrote: »

He will be leader of FG leading them into power, therefore why would they have a vote when in power to see if they still want him as leader ?

I take your point, but FG are no differant to most parties and FF (much to the ignorance of many boardies) in that the party always comes first when it comes to making big decisions like this.

Until the Irish people start demanding to always be the parties No 1 priority (and benchmarking our incoming government with the last) we will be left with this kind of political culture.

I don't think this is quite true. There will be a Dail vote to elect the new leader of the house. As FG will be the largest party and will either have a majority or a colation, the government, which should represent the majority of the house will agree on him to be the Taoiseach.

There are processes in place such as votes of no confidence that can be put down in certain circumstances, but in reality, these things are not normally issues as otherwise it could be chaos.

meglome

damoz wrote: »

J

Just to be very clear - he is a VP of the CDs. But thats by default, as the party leader, not by any special talents he has. There are in fact 10 vice presidents. Talk about small government

http://www.epp.eu/party.asp?z=5E5D

meh... wasn't the main trust of my point but no harm to know it I suppose.

Gyalsto

Its so difficult to have confidence in Enda. I noticed also that his advisors have got him to keep his hands down as in the past there was no congruence between hands and what he was saying. I agree with your no eye contact comment, guess he is just hiding and hoping that anti F.F sentiment will get him over the line.

Seres

I get the impression from people here who have decided to vote FG , that they are hopeful for the ship and not necessarily the Captain , however i feel at the stage we are at , we need a strong front line man , Kenny is not a good debater but i think more so then anything else last night he came across as having a very thin layer of knowledge across issues that are really important right now !

MaceFace

Seres wrote: »

I get the impression from people here who have decided to vote FG , that they are hopeful for the ship and not necessarily the Captain , however i feel at the stage we are at , we need a strong front line man , Kenny is not a good debater but i think more so then anything else last night he came across as having a very thin layer of knowledge across issues that are really important right now !

I didn't realise we were voting for X-Factor where the personality and likeability of a person was more important than the actual policies.

ECDUNNE

Drumpot wrote: »

You see this is what annoys me about politics and the concept of it. People seem to think that the correct strategy is the one that gains the most votes for a particular party as opposed to actually trying to out manouvre your opponent with honesty, integrity and by showing people that you are not afraid to tell the citizens what you truely represent (as opposed to what you think they want to hear).

Hearing about how much FF got wrong gives people no clue as to why that makes you a better candidate. It only gives people some satisfaction that Martin gets pulled up on a point that pretty much the dog in the street knows (so nobody is any the wiser).

Why cant we have open, honest politics where our leaders are not afraid to actually discuss what they (personally and as a party) have to bring to the table.

At no point did I suggest that what occurred at the debate was the correct course of action or for that matter what happens in national media at election time. I was simply commenting on the debate. I whole heartedly agree that the political system in Ireland needs reform, so that people engage on the issues and not pointing out other candidates mistakes

I am personally involved in a campaign at the moment and at no point have we opted to engage in mud slinging or anything untoward. The reason I am supporting the candidate I'm helping is that he is running on a platform of having expertise in a particular area and also that he would demand transparency in what the nation of Ireland faces in the coming years

Gyalsto

I have yet to hear him speak with any great confidence on any subject, he comes across like a little child whistling in the dark to keep his spirits up.

Drumpot

MaceFace wrote: »

I don't think this is quite true. There will be a Dail vote to elect the new leader of the house. As FG will be the largest party and will either have a majority or a colation, the government, which should represent the majority of the house will agree on him to be the Taoiseach.

There are processes in place such as votes of no confidence that can be put down in certain circumstances, but in reality, these things are not normally issues as otherwise it could be chaos.

All just red tape as opposed to being anything meaningful in this context. Nobody in FG will vote against Kenny , irrespective of what they think about his leadership qualities, nor will anybody that goes into coalition with them . .

The Waltzing Consumer

Gyalsto wrote: »

I have yet to hear him speak with any great confidence on any subject, he comes across like a little child whistling in the dark to keep his spirits up.

Better that then FF and their amazing ability to speak with confidence but be wrong all the time. How many times have we seen Bertie, Biffo and Martin speak with 100% confidence and be proved to be 100% wrong or lying?

It is crazy how many posters on this board scream for different politics and change, and then only appear to be interested in the looks/media ability spoofing/appearances of the candidates. We get the politics we deserve and after reading all the appearance comments made about Kenny, it looks like people do deserve the Michael Lowrys and Bertie Aherns and Haely Raes.

I ain't no fan of Martin or Gilmore, but I am not going to be arguing against them based on their hairlines, their glasses, their ability to be spin whatever they say in a more media-friendly way.

Drumpot

ECDUNNE wrote: »

At no point did I suggest that what occurred at the debate was the correct course of action or for that matter what happens in national media at election time. I was simply commenting on the debate. I whole heartedly agree that the political system in Ireland needs reform, so that people engage on the issues and not pointing out other candidates mistakes

I am personally involved in a campaign at the moment and at no point have we opted to engage in mud slinging or anything untoward. The reason I am supporting the candidate I'm helping is that he is running on a platform of having expertise in a particular area and also that he would demand transparency in what the nation of Ireland faces in the coming years

Fair enough, I meant no disrespect. So many people class political cuteness/strategy as something to applaud. I dont and think its one of the problems in our political class (that they think getting one up on their opponents by throwing mud is to be commended!).

Drumpot

The Waltzing Consumer wrote: »

Better that then FF and their amazing ability to speak with confidence but be wrong all the time. How many times have we seen Bertie, Biffo and Martin speak with 100% confidence and be proved to be 100% wrong or lying?

It is crazy how many posters on this board scream for different politics and change, and then only appear to be interested in the looks/media ability spoofing/appearances of the candidates. We get the politics we deserve and after reading all the appearance comments made about Kenny, it looks like people do deserve the Michael Lowrys and Bertie Aherns and Haely Raes.

I ain't no fan of Martin or Gilmore, but I am not going to be arguing against them based on their hairlines, their glasses, their ability to be spin whatever they say in a more media-friendly way.

Its also amazing how many people have lowered the bar so much that not being a member of FF seems to be one of the most important factors on deciding who they like.

If people cannot physically meet or talk to their leader, they can only judge them on what they say when they speak to us. You dont have to be a good speaker to inspire people with a clear, credible, superior plan. None of them have done that. FG are seen the best of a bad bunch in most peoples eyes.

MaceFace

Drumpot wrote: »

All just red tape as opposed to being anything meaningful in this context. Nobody in FG will vote against Kenny , irrespective of what they think about his leadership qualities, nor will anybody that goes into coalition with them . .

You may call it red tape, but I call it common sense.
Considering the vote will not happen until a government is formed and a program for government is agreed between the various parties, why would a collation partner agree to all of this but not agree to Kenny as Taoiseach - this would come up in partnership agreement.

If FG members voted against Kenny for Taoiseach, it would put the entire government in jeopardy and another GE may be required. Again, surely if a FG TD was going to vote against Kenny, they would raise this internally in their party and not wash their dirty clothes in public.
That happened last year with the heave against Kenny, but the majority of the party decided to stick with Kenny, so either you go with your party colleagues or if you don't agree, you can leave the party and be Indepenedent.

What is the alternative - we go out and vote tomorrow for candidates and let them decide at a later stage on the Taoiseach and we have no idea who that is until after the election?

The Waltzing Consumer

Drumpot wrote: »

Its also amazing how many people have lowered the bar so much that not being a member of FF seems to be one of the most important factors on deciding who they like.

Well yes, I would agree. It is a pity. There probably are some good politicians in FF who should do well but won't because they are in FF.

The problem is, after 80+ years of FF governments and the constant lying, corruption and selfish behaviour of FF party, people are fed up. If you are a good politician, you should not be in FF. You should leave. They have 0 credibility and 0 moral authority. They have not changed one bit. They welcome corrupt, immoral, lying, tax-evading scum in to their party with open arms and that has cost the decent members of FF a lot.

Seres

MaceFace wrote: »

I didn't realise we were voting for X-Factor where the personality and likeability of a person was more important than the actual policies.

I never mentioned anything about likeability , i was talking in terms of capability and in terms of FG its seems to be more the capability of the team rather than the leader that swaying the voters . Its grand and all having policies but if the leader of the party cant even debate them ?!

KIERAN1

No FG are not the party to help Ireland. I like Labour to be the main winner in this election, and there policies are more in touch with the Irish taxpayer.. I will be voting for Labour, and Sinn Fein or an independant candidate.

almighty1

Original Question - Enda Kenny - Capable?

An unequivocal, resounding and absolute NO.