Bois its undercover police officers ;D

Peavy

Me and my friend were having a little discussion about undercover police stopping you and doing a search trough your cars , now we dont carry or use drugs or carry around anything illegal with us what so ever . And i don't mind them checking my car , but could you say NO to them when they are searching it ? can you not let them do it ? if so what would be consenquences of it ? would be a Court matter ? And do you have any rights or laws backing you up ?
As a citizen if you have a clean slate i think you should be able to refuse the car search and be able to get away without going to court Its just a small little things we had on our minds for a while would like to hear out other peoples opinions concerning this

Voodoomelon

Recently enough at 3am outside a local night club, me and a large group were standing looking on to 4-5 Gardaí searching a car from top to bottom as the occupants all stood on the side of the road. Half an hour later a tow truck arrived and towed the car away.

One of the girls that was in the group of onlookers who was a barrister was saying it was an illegal search and any decent defense would pull the prosecution apart. Now, if she was anywhere near as intoxicated as I was at the time, she could have been talking out of her arse, but thats my input on the matter.

Bumpstop

Many years ago as an unmarked Hiace driver, I was stopped a lot by the gardai, and had my van searched on a few occasions.

It never bothered me, why would it. Some of the gardai were pretty unfriendly about it too. I never minded though.

It was good to see them stopping vans, it mean't they were paying attention to the horse boilers.

As you say if you have nothing to hide why would it bother you.

There's a lad with a sticky at the top of the page missing a car, maybe the gardai should stop more cars and search them.

Peavy

I have no prob them searching my car , but lets say i dont want them to . I know they can prosecute me but do i have rights ? lets say if a garda officer is being a prick towards me ? and i dont like his act i know i can report him to the authoraties but can i stop him from searching it ? I had a few searches before and they werent nice they arent carfull about stuff slaming boot taking stuff out trowing it around . One garda even took out my CD player .

challengemaster

I'm not sure is there any legislation that allows them to search cars over here like they can in the UK/US/etc, and I'd love to see them try find reasonable grounds to get a search warrant.

Iwannahurl

Bumpstop wrote: »

Many years ago as an unmarked Hiace driver, I was stopped a lot by the gardai, and had my van searched on a few occasions.

It never bothered me, why would it. Some of the gardai were pretty unfriendly about it too. I never minded though.

It was good to see them stopping vans, it mean't they were paying attention to the horse boilers.

As you say if you have nothing to hide why would it bother you.

There's a lad with a sticky at the top of the page missing a car, maybe the gardai should stop more cars and search them.

What's the current equivalent of the good old Hiace then?

If there is one, then here is a top tip for genuine criminal types on the move: drive something else and you significantly lower your chances of being stopped by AGS.

Bumpstop

Iwannahurl wrote: »

What's the current equivalent of the good old Hiace then?

If there is one, then here is a top tip for genuine criminal types on the move: drive something else and you significantly lower your chances of being stopped by AGS.

Lol good question, In the mid 70's it was the baby transit. In the sixties it was a Mk2 Jag, I think ANPR has stopped the gardai "nose" for stopping a car.

Peavy

I mean its ok when they search everything , but be carfull with the stuff dont damage the car , its not yours to damage be reasonable those are the Guards i can deal with some pricks destroy the stuff thats what i want to know by knowing the tone of guard the way he is talking with me i would let him or not to search the car ;/ there are protection acts that cover you in a case like this IE data protection act covers all the info you may or not want to share with them .
Illegalie searching you car is also a breach of human rights and its called invading private property this covers you basically for everything . If you dont let him search your and he still searches the car he is in a breach of a law . We have laws on our side aswell , why not use them for once ?

vibe666

if it helps at all, i seem to remember an old thread in another forum that said they can search your person and get you to empty out your pockets at the side of the street on suspicion alone, but they need to get a court order to search inside your mouth. :pac:

(may not be true tho)

Iwannahurl

Bumpstop wrote: »

Lol good question, In the mid 70's it was the baby transit. In the sixties it was a Mk2 Jag, I think ANPR has stopped the gardai "nose" for stopping a car.

Good point.

ANPR has replaced ADVR (Automatic Dodgy Van Recognition).

Bumpstop

I think FGSSTDH, was replaced by ANPR.:):):) or was it stop the pigeon !

Esel

Cops are searching for missing punctuation marks, mate. Nothing you can do - they obviously suspect you have a big stash of them in your vehicle.

meathstevie

Voodoomelon wrote: »

Recently enough at 3am outside a local night club, me and a large group were standing looking on to 4-5 Gardaí searching a car from top to bottom as the occupants all stood on the side of the road. Half an hour later a tow truck arrived and towed the car away.

One of the girls that was in the group of onlookers who was a barrister was saying it was an illegal search and any decent defense would pull the prosecution apart. Now, if she was anywhere near as intoxicated as I was at the time, she could have been talking out of her arse, but thats my input on the matter.

She was talking out of her arse. Did she know under what legislation the Gardai were searching the car at the time ? Don't think so. Could have been from construction and use traffic stuff to terrorism legislation or misuse of drugs etc etc. I take it she didn't hear it at the time so how could she know ?

And for the folks who think that Gardai, and PSNI for that matter, operate under the laws of American television and need to leg it up to the court house for a search warrant for just about anything: forget about it. A lot of searches in public places can be carried out based on reasonable suspicion without any sort of "warrants".

Kepti

Bumpstop wrote: »

As you say if you have nothing to hide why would it bother you.

It's an egregious violation of your right to privacy, that's why.

Would you be happy with having your pockets or home searched? I wouldn't, and I have nothing to hide either.

x in the city

thats because us civilians got f**k all legal rights, if someone kicked up a fuss and took then to the cleaners with a good lawyer it might be a different story all together.

its 2011 now, not 1982.

Anan1

challengemaster wrote: »

I'm not sure is there any legislation that allows them to search cars over here like they can in the UK/US/etc, and I'd love to see them try find reasonable grounds to get a search warrant.

AFAIK Gardaí can search a person or vehicle without warrant under the misuse of drugs act. There are a couple of Gardaí who regularly post here - perhaps one of them might confirm?

A friend of mine was walking to the gym one morning passing through an area where you'll get whatever you want;) Unmarked car pulled up and asked him what he was doing, on way to the gym he replied. They emptied the contents of his gearbag on the bonnet of the car and were less than polite. Their only grounds for being suspicious of him was that he was walking through an area where drugs are widely enough available if you know what you are looking for. Seemed a tad harsh and narrow minded to me.

CabanasBoy

I think the "misuse of drugs" act pretty much gives them the right to do anything (including arresting you and having your cavities searched:eek:) so if they want to look in the boot of your car, I'd let them:D
People are naive if they think they've the right to privacy or freedom of movement because there's always a section or subsection of the law which will allow the authorities to do damn well as they please.

biko

Various powers in legislation allow a Garda to search your car. For example, a Garda can search your car if he or she reasonably suspects that:
• you have committed or are about to commit an offence under the Offences Against the State Acts, a homicide or other specific offences; or
• you are in possession of a controlled drug. These are common examples of powers that a Garda may use to search your car, but there are other powers that a Garda could also use.

However the Garda should tell you why you are being searched and under what law**

Iwannahurl

It seems there are a range of powers under which a Garda officer can search your vehicle:

Can a Garda search my car?

Various powers in legislation allow a Garda to search your car. For example, a Garda can search your car if he or she reasonably suspects that:

• you have committed or are about to commit an offence under the Offences Against the State Acts, a homicide or other specific offences; or

• you are in possession of a controlled drug. These are common examples of powers that a Garda may use to search your car, but there are other powers that a Garda could also use.

Source: Irish Council for Civil Liberties, 2010

Reg'stoy

RoverJames wrote: »

A friend of mine was walking to the gym one morning passing through an area where you'll get whatever you want;) Unmarked car pulled up and asked him what he was doing, on way to the gym he replied. They emptied the contents of his gearbag on the bonnet of the car and were less than polite. Their only grounds for being suspicious of him was that he was walking through an area where drugs are widely enough available if you know what you are looking for. Seemed a tad harsh and narrow minded to me.

Yes we should enact a law where only the following people



are stopped and searched.

In fairness to all criminals people who had a rough childhood we should avocate an honor system, if they promise not to do anymore naughty stuff "your honour" well I for one say we should believe them (sic).

And yes, if you have a loud exhaust on your car the Guards will plant drugs in it during their needless and unlawful search; because all Guards have a little envelope marked "I'll teach that little pr**k some respect" which is stuffed full of drugs for these exact occasions.

TheZ

Any decent lawyer will be able to challenge a cop on what gave rise to the reasonable suspicion in all but the most extreme cases and it won't stack up even if they were to find something.

Having said that if you refuse you will be arrested etc. so sometimes easier to comply and be on your way that to make a principled stand and be delayed for several hours - that's a judgment call though - see below.

When a cop asks you a question he is not asking you because he wants to know - eg "do you know what speed you were doing" he is looking for you to admit an offence as that makes things easier evidence wise. You should answer "I could swear I was not going above speed limit" or similar. If you admit the offence they won't let you off but people think they might.

The other thing to remember is that people have a natural tendency to be helpful thinking it will make things easier. You should turn off that helpful tendency whenever dealing with anybody who has authority over you or where you are or might be accused of something. Make them work for everything and don't admit anything.

If a cop emptied my gym bag in the manner mentioned above I would be making a complaint to the Garda Ombudsman.

Vikings

The most common power of search used out there would probably be under the drugs act, the legislation is pretty simple on this:

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1977/en/act/pub/0012/sec0023.html#sec23

Under part a) there, the word detain means you would be brought back to a Garda station to facilitate the search, it is not an arrest though.

Part b) is again fairly clear there... stop and keep car stopped for purpose of the search.

There is many other powers of search used out there, the Garda should be explaining to you under what legislation the search is being carried out under. If not, don't be afraid to ask.. and if you are not happy with it take details and follow it up.

Anan1

TheZ wrote: »

When a cop asks you a question he is not asking you because he wants to know - eg "do you know what speed you were doing" he is looking for you to admit an offence as that makes things easier evidence wise. You should answer "I could swear I was not going above speed limit" or similar. If you admit the offence they won't let you off but people think they might.

Not so, in my experience. I've been stopped a good few times for speeding, and i've always admitted it and apologised. The matter has always been left at a warning.

TheZ wrote: »

The other thing to remember is that people have a natural tendency to be helpful thinking it will make things easier. You should turn off that helpful tendency whenever dealing with anybody who has authority over you or where you are or might be accused of something. Make them work for everything and don't admit anything.

This really depends on the offence. For something serious, you may well be right. For something like speeding, your approach will IMO result in needless aggravation and points.

Reg'stoy

Reg'stoy wrote: »

Yes we should enact a law where only the following people

................


are stopped and searched.

Don't really see the point in your post. In my view a chap on the way to a gym with a gear bag shouldn't be considered as suspicious by Gardai in an unmarked car. Of course, the Gardai are well aware of who is dealing drugs in the area my friend was walking through so why those lads aren't being searched as they stroll around is beyond me.

Are you a member of AGS yourself?

TheZ

Anan1 wrote: »

Not so, in my experience. I've been stopped a good few times for speeding, and i've always admitted it and apologised. The matter has always been left at a warning.

This really depends on the offence. For something serious, you may well be right. For something like speeding, your approach will IMO result in needless aggravation and points.

Were you stopped since introduction of Traffic Corps, penalty points and fixed penalty notices?

Were you stopped by somebody with a laser/speed gun who had clocked your speed?

On the contrary my approach has seen me being ordered to produce licence and insurance which I think is a tactic when they can't do you for anything but receiving no charge for speeding as I didn't admit offence on side of the road.

TheZ

Vikings wrote: »

The most common power of search used out there would probably be under the drugs act, the legislation is pretty simple on this:

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1977/en/act/pub/0012/sec0023.html#sec23

Under part a) there, the word detain means you would be brought back to a Garda station to facilitate the search, it is not an arrest though.

Part b) is again fairly clear there... stop and keep car stopped for purpose of the search.

There is many other powers of search used out there, the Garda should be explaining to you under what legislation the search is being carried out under. If not, don't be afraid to ask.. and if you are not happy with it take details and follow it up.

Reasonable cause for suspicion is where it falls down. Hence the hullaboo over introduction of random breath testing as an infringement of civil liberties. Police almost always won't be able to justify why they had reasonable cause for suspicion

johnos1984

TheZ wrote: »

On the contrary my approach has seen me being ordered to produce licence and insurance which I think is a tactic when they can't do you for anything but receiving no charge for speeding as I didn't admit offence on side of the road.

I'm pretty sure thats all bollocks given that the word of an officer has more weight in court

I've been searched and been in cars while being searched. The crime was that 'your a young lad with a nice car' was the reason given on all occasions. The car in question was my mates 96 Polo and my Avensis FFS

Vikings

TheZ wrote: »

On the contrary my approach has seen me being ordered to produce licence and insurance which I think is a tactic when they can't do you for anything but receiving no charge for speeding as I didn't admit offence on side of the road.

Unless you were given the legal caution "You are not obliged to say anything...." then your response to the Garda at the side of the road means nothing. You can tell him you were doing 250km/h all the way down the m50 and it won't make a blind lick of difference.

the_syco

RoverJames wrote: »

In my view a chap on the way to a gym with a gear bag shouldn't be considered as suspicious by Gardai in an unmarked car.

If he looks like a duck, and walks like a duck, in an area where ducks are common, he could be a duck.

johnos1984

the_syco wrote: »

If he looks like a duck, and walks like a duck, in an area where ducks are common, he could be a duck.

Harsh

I've been in similar areas where similar things take place and I'm not a duck.

Viper_JB

the_syco wrote: »

If he looks like a duck, and walks like a duck, in an area where ducks are common, he could be a duck.

By that logic they should be raiding every house in any dodgy council estate in Limerick. Might work for ducks but doesn't really apply for people. With resonable explaination and respect I wouldn't have a problem submitting to a search, however if they were being anything but I would make their job as hard as possible. I'd probably go so far as to take pictures of the car interior before hand and report any damage no matter how small as criminal damage to the guards.

johnos1984

Viper_JB wrote: »

By that logic they should be raiding every house in any dodgy council estate in Limerick. Might work for ducks but doesn't really apply for people. With resonable explaination and respect I wouldn't have a problem submitting to a search, however if they were being anything but I would make their job as hard as possible. I'd probably go so far as to take pictures of the car interior before hand and report any damage no matter how small as criminal damage to the guards.

I know in the North the PSNI and HRM Customs have to put everything back EXACTLY as and where it was if your house is being searched for criminal activity, guilty or not.

I can only assume it is the same practice here including searching your car

vibe666

the_syco wrote: »

If he looks like a duck, and walks like a duck, in an area where ducks are common, he could be a duck.

what if he's just a chicken with webbed feet and piles?

does it work the other way round too?

what if someone lives in a good area? does that automatically mean they're not a criminal? or a duck?

the_syco

the_syco wrote: »

If he looks like a duck, and walks like a duck, in an area where ducks are common, he could be a duck.

What a silly comment, I would like to think that the vast majority of the members of AGS are not that narrow minded, in fact I know they aren't in fairness to them. My buddy just was unfortunate to encounter ones that were a tad green me thinks. Tracksuit and gearbag, must be a dealer :rolleyes:

mp3kid

johnos1984 wrote: »

I know in the North the PSNI and HRM Customs have to put everything back EXACTLY as and where it was if your house is being searched for criminal activity, guilty or not.

I can only assume it is the same practice here including searching your car

Customs did this to my bosses car some years ago.

It was a new XR4 and their excuse was he did a lot of travel to and from Amsterdam, duh, the guy was a dutch national.

The customs guys are better at taking cars apart than they are a rebuilding them, almost every panel and bolt came out, and of course found nothing, so had to replace everything in a really bad mood.

The XR4 was never the same after that, almost every panel was loose or squeaking.

batman2000

Kepti wrote: »

It's an egregious violation of your right to privacy, that's why.

Would you be happy with having your pockets or home searched? I wouldn't, and I have nothing to hide either.

[QUOTE=
It seems there are a range of powers under which a Garda officer can search your vehicle:

Can a Garda search my car?

Various powers in legislation allow a Garda to search your car. For example, a Garda can search your car if he or she reasonably suspects that:

• you have committed or are about to commit an offence under the Offences Against the State Acts, a homicide or other specific offences; or

• you are in possession of a controlled drug. These are common examples of powers that a Garda may use to search your car, but there are other powers that a Garda could also use.[/I][/INDENT]

Source: Irish Council for Civil Liberties, 2010

[/QUOTE]

This pretty much blows your idea of "an egregious violation of your right to privacy" out of the water. Perhaps you should do you research in to the matter as opposed to just posting irrationally

Anan1

batman2000 wrote: »

This pretty much blows your idea of "an egregious violation of your right to privacy" out of the water. Perhaps you should do you research in to the matter as opposed to just posting irrationally

Actually, it doesn't. All that's been proven is that it's legal.

challengemaster

At any time there's a chance that I might have a few grand worth of archery/photography equipment in the car with me, depending on where I'm heading. There's not a hope I'm going to let some ignorant garda toss about my very expensive and fragile equipment without any damn good reason.

Viper_JB

batman2000 wrote: »

This pretty much blows your idea of "an egregious violation of your right to privacy" out of the water. Perhaps you should do you research in to the matter as opposed to just posting irrationally

Just because there is legislation to allow for this to occur, it doesn't mean that it's not an egregious violation of your right to privacy, especially when you consider that it may be illegal for a law enforcement officer to do this in other countries. There are plenty of laws in Ireland which are pointless, outdated or put in place to protect the wrong people.

(already been said lol sorry Anan)

Reg'stoy

RoverJames wrote: »

Don't really see the point in your post. In my view a chap on the way to a gym with a gear bag shouldn't be considered as suspicious by Gardai in an unmarked car. Of course, the Gardai are well aware of who is dealing drugs in the area my friend was walking through so why those lads aren't being searched as they stroll around is beyond me.

In response to RoverJames, unfortunatly in this day and age certain individuals who fit a particular profile in a particular area are going to pop up on the radar screen. In posting the picture I did, I was trying to be somewhat flippant in asking what should cause people to be searched.

In much the same way your friend, while on the way to the gym (and I accept that) was probably dressed in track suit and hoodie (I do) and probably carrying a crappy bag (like I do) would not have gotten a second glance if getting out of a car in a gym carpark. But honestly in the environment you describe I'm sorry to say, he might (and did on this occasion) raise eyebrows.

As for the whole hoodie debate while it is a 'liveline' favorite, it is also based somewhat on known truths. Ask any store security personnel would their suspicions be raised by an individual coming in with their 'hood' up and I would give you short odds that it would be. So peoples attire in an ideal world shouldn't but truthfully will raise questions in the real world.

I'm not going to be an apologist for the PC/civil rights campaigners when someone feels aggrieved at being sterotyped but nor do I advocate a 'big brother society' where you're guilty till proved innocent. We have to (real world) accept that race, colour, creed, dress and accent do lead people to make wrong and right decisions on other peoples character.

People often have preconceived ideas about individuals in a certain uniform based purely on their attire, country accent or choice of Dublin nightclub .

firefly08

Vikings wrote: »

Unless you were given the legal caution "You are not obliged to say anything...." then your response to the Garda at the side of the road means nothing. You can tell him you were doing 250km/h all the way down the m50 and it won't make a blind lick of difference.

Totally wrong - your response could mean everything. If he hasn't actually clocked you, then his word won't be accepted to convict you of speeding (that's why they use radars etc.) He may therefore be hoping you'll just admit it, in which case he no longer needs the radar evidence.

He can ask you anything without caution or warning, and write down everything you say, and use it in court against you. He doesn't even have to write it down - if you deny the conversation, the judge will take his word over yours.

firefly08

OP, I would stress that regardless of whether the cops have the right to search you or your vehicle, you can't stop them. So make it clear that you don't consent to the search (if you don't) but also that you will not try to stop them. If you have an argument with them on the side of the road then obviously they will win, and the courts will always back them up in that regard. Let them do what they want, under verbal protest, and then make your complaint afterwards.

I'd recommend watching this video

It's a US criminal defence lawyer and a veteran former police officer explaining why it's not a good idea to talk to the police voluntarily.

I know it's America and the laws are not the same, but the principles of civil rights are similar enough. One of them does discuss getting pulled over at one point (the system is the same in most US states as Ireland - they usually need to clock you or get a confession).

The guy is an exceptional orator and it's gas to listen to him talk.

Turner

TheZ wrote: »

Any decent lawyer will be able to challenge a cop on what gave rise to the reasonable suspicion in all but the most extreme cases and it won't stack up even if they were to find something.

Im sorry but you are talking through your arse here.

Every "cop" knows what proofs are required by law that are needed to give rise to reasonable suspicion.

Come back to me when you have sat through thousands of cases in both the district and circuit courts across the land.

If anybody wants to know when a Garda can search your car check out citizensinformation.ie. There are loads of cases when they can do so without warrant.

If you try and stop them you will end up being arrested and most likely prosecuted for obstructing a search.

Turner

firefly08 wrote: »

I'd recommend watching this video

This fine young chappie didnt want to be searched either..

I wonder why...maybe he thought his civil liberties were being infringed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z64D-l6JUS8

firefly08

This fine young chappie didnt want to be searched either..

I wonder why...maybe he thought his civil liberties were being infringed.

That's an add for kevlar vests. It shows a suspect attempting to flee from what we can only presume is a lawful search. I can't see how that relates to the video I posted.

Turner

Never mind the advertising within the youtube video.

Its actual footage of police on duty and shows what modern police are up against when they decide to search people.... looking for drugs.

Peavy

From now for everyone i would suggest video the searching process just for insurance , they cant say anything about it as there is no law against it. Incase they do damage to your vehicle by searching your car you will have some insurance against the damage and you will be able to report the officer and have proof thats what i am doing from now on, if they are rude to me i video them . I could then sleep easily at night without no worries.

Kepti

batman2000 wrote: »

This pretty much blows your idea of "an egregious violation of your right to privacy" out of the water. Perhaps you should do you research in to the matter as opposed to just posting irrationally

Way to be smug, condescending and completely wrong all at the same time.

What exactly was irrational in what I posted?

Peavy

OSI wrote: »

tbh Peavy, with some of the stuff you've posted on here in the past, I wouldn't be surprised if the Gards had plenty of suspicions when pulling you over and searching.

sorry for 2x posting

I dont think should be concerned about me , i am sure you have your own worries so just stop . I 'd like to know tho what makes you think that way ? For future reference next time you post that to any person he/she could consider that as an insult and would not be very happy about it. Especially in a topic like this.

firefly08

From now for everyone i would suggest video the searching process just for insurance , they cant say anything about it as there is no law against it.

Are you sure about that? If you have checked it out, fair enough, but I certainly wouldn't assume that there's no law against it.

I know there are laws against filming the police in some countries.