The Story of Ireland

V480

Just wondering if anyobdy here is following Fergal Keane's series on RTE (and BBC I think) and your opinion of it so far?

ejmaztec

V480 wrote: »

Just wondering if anyobdy here is following Fergal Keane's series on RTE (and BBC I think) and your opinion of it so far?

I've only seen the first one, what's your opinion of it so far?

ReacherCreature

I've seen a bit of the Elizabeth-Irish period. It's interesting with an aim of being an introduction I feel. Slight bias too. Dave Edwards, a lecturer with the UCC History Department's one of the interviewees, he's terrific at his job. Will try catch it but the next one's on at RTÉ1 tonight at 11.05 - pathetic for a program's content that should be on at a further accessible time.

sensibleken

Im not mad on it to be honest. I was disapointed that they covered the mesolithic to the norman invasion in one episode. Also the programme has an agenda to destroy the idea of irelands victimhood as he more or less stated in the first episode, i think he should just report history

ReacherCreature

sensibleken wrote: »

Also the programme has an agenda to destroy the idea of irelands victimhood as he more or less stated in the first episode,

Do you mean Ireland as a victim of invasion and colonisation etc.? I sensed something entirely different in watching a half hour of an episode.

Adrian009

V480 wrote: »

Just wondering if anyobdy here is following Fergal Keane's series on RTE (and BBC I think) and your opinion of it so far?

Not terribly impressed. Its fine, but I can now understand how so much important details can get utterly lost when trying to fit in an overall narrative. Thought he focus on more surpises.

Adrian009

sensibleken wrote: »

Im not mad on it to be honest. I was disapointed that they covered the mesolithic to the norman invasion in one episode. Also the programme has an agenda to destroy the idea of irelands victimhood as he more or less stated in the first episode, i think he should just report history

Its not that cut and dried. It astonished me just how much we were never told in school that I ended up learning myself, but that's because there is so much depth and breath in our history, far more than most of us realise.

Adrian009

V480 wrote: »

Just wondering if anyobdy here is following Fergal Keane's series on RTE (and BBC I think) and your opinion of it so far?

Plus there is NOWHERE NEAR ENOUGH space given to the history of Gaelic Ireland. They even forget to mention who was the last Ard Ri (it was Ruaidhri Ua Conchobhair, born c.1120, died 1198). A massive part of our heritige with which I feel it completely fails to get to grips. And some of the Anglo-centric history could do with five minutes more attention to detail. Too many soundbites.

Having said all that, I recognise the terrible limitations that such a short progmame suffers. You need lots of time, an interested audience, and a lot of open minds when some cherised myths turn out to be .... myths.

looksee

sensibleken wrote: »

Im not mad on it to be honest. I was disapointed that they covered the mesolithic to the norman invasion in one episode. Also the programme has an agenda to destroy the idea of irelands victimhood as he more or less stated in the first episode, i think he should just report history

So you would prefer a programme that leaves out bits in order to cherish the idea of victimhood? Even if Ireland can claim to have been a victim over the years, how is it sensible or helpful to perpetuate a sense of victimhood?

If your child had been bullied at school would you encourage them to go into adulthood saying 'its not my fault, I can't help it, everyone used bully me at school, you have to feel sorry for me'.

PatsytheNazi

Caught the end of it last night as I was channel hopping. Mentioned Scullabouge in 1798 while ignoring the vastly greater attrocites carried out by the British army and loyalists from Antrim down to Wexford etc. They described Scullabouge as a secterian massacre etc when in fact some of those killed were Catholics and some of those who carried out the act were Protestants. It even showed the melodramitic illustration by a discredited propagandist called Cruikshank regarding the incident. It was painted in 1844, it on the left in the link below.

Fergal Keane was awarded an OBE several years ago, says it all :rolleyes:

http://www.askaboutireland.ie/reading-room/history-heritage/history-of-ireland/a-history-of-ireland-feat/1798-and-the-act-of-union/

sensibleken

looksee wrote: »

So you would prefer a programme that leaves out bits in order to cherish the idea of victimhood? Even if Ireland can claim to have been a victim over the years, how is it sensible or helpful to perpetuate a sense of victimhood?

If your child had been bullied at school would you encourage them to go into adulthood saying 'its not my fault, I can't help it, everyone used bully me at school, you have to feel sorry for me'.

what? Did I say anything of the sort? No, I said he should report history. He is leaving out vast swathes of irish history so as to get accross his agenda. This is the first time in a long time that a series has been done on Irish history and it would be nice if they didnt politicise it one way or the other. so relax

sensibleken

Adrian009 wrote: »

Its not that cut and dried. It astonished me just how much we were never told in school that I ended up learning myself, but that's because there is so much depth and breath in our history, far more than most of us realise.

absolutely, but he seems to be trying to report on 'lost' bits of our history and as a consequence is not presenting a true naritive.
for example I would have loved to see a greater amount of time spent on Dal Riada rather than just saying 'look we did bad stuff too!'

ReacherCreature

PatsytheNazi wrote: »

Caught the end of it last night as I was channel hopping. Mentioned Scullabouge in 1798 while ignoring the vastly greater attrocites carried out by the British army and loyalists from Antrim down to Wexford etc. They described Scullabouge as a secterian massacre etc when in fact some of those killed were Catholics and some of those who carried out the act were Protestants. It even showed the melodramitic illustration by a discredited propagandist called Cruikshank regarding the incident. It was painted in 1844, it on the left in the link below.

Fergal Keane was awarded an OBE several years ago, says it all :rolleyes:

http://www.askaboutireland.ie/reading-room/history-heritage/history-of-ireland/a-history-of-ireland-feat/1798-and-the-act-of-union/

I haven't seen the episode but it backs up what I mean by slight bias. Viewers should be given both sides to a story but RTÉ would rather show tripe like Operation Transformation, Eastenders, Fair City etc. than genuinely interesting and fully relevant information for this country's heritage.

Einhard

ReacherCreature wrote: »

I haven't seen the episode but it backs up what I mean by slight bias. Viewers should be given both sides to a story but RTÉ would rather show tripe like Operation Transformation, Eastenders, Fair City etc. than genuinely interesting and fully relevant information for this country's heritage.

That's a bit unfair. RTE is a public service broadcaster afterall, and people seem to like Fir City and Eastenders. And it's slightly ironic that you complain about RTE's lack of historical programming in a thread dealing with, er, a historical programme by RTE. Generally speaking, I've always found RTE quite good at producing history documentaries, although it is a bit limited in its scope.

PatsytheNazi

Einhard wrote: »

That's a bit unfair. RTE is a public service broadcaster afterall, and people seem to like Fir City and Eastenders. And it's slightly ironic that you complain about RTE's lack of historical programming in a thread dealing with, er, a historical programme by RTE. Generally speaking, I've always found RTE quite good at producing history documentaries, although it is a bit limited in its scope.

Cannot agree with you on RTE and good history programmes, nepotism and crony's of Fianna Fail, Eoghan Harris and the Stickies (Workers Party) in there for years.

Thank God for TG4 I say.

ReacherCreature

Einhard wrote: »

That's a bit unfair. RTE is a public service broadcaster afterall, and people seem to like Fir City and Eastenders. And it's slightly ironic that you complain about RTE's lack of historical programming in a thread dealing with, er, a historical programme by RTE. Generally speaking, I've always found RTE quite good at producing history documentaries, although it is a bit limited in its scope.

Yeah but The Story of Ireland is one of the few documentaries I've seen that encapsulates Ireland's history. There should be way more IMO.

lebowski11

I've enjoyed this series so far but I agree with most here who find it a little vague. For instance, the Batlle of Aughrim; the bloddiest in Irish history does not even recieve a cursory mention. However I'd imagine that the vagueness in much of the series stems from the editing than anything else. The contributors on the series are some of the finest historians in the country, yet most only get a brief cameo to explain the relevance of certain events.

thesilvervoice

I believe it is a co-production between RTE and the BBC

bitter

Hats off to Keane for this show. A lot of Irish people need to let go of this "victimhood" mentality. It is only detrimental to the progress of Irish Society as a whole. Brendan Behan was a prime example as he cried victimhood yet grovelled to the London Theatre world to show his plays and gain their acceptance.

Cynical Apathy

I'd imagine RTE gave him a limit of 4 or 5 episodes to fit it all in.

There's a misconception among most "patriotic" Irish people that we were happy go lucky farmers living in bliss until the damned English came over and raped our grannies. When in fact 99% of the population were peasant slaves living in a feudal society under chieftains, provincial kings and high kings. Each one of these were as tyrannical as any British lord. The common Irish person had to do their willing, work their fingers to the bone, fight their wars all for a reward of food.

owenc

Oh yes i was watching it i didn't know irish people planted people in the mainland until i seen that which was very interesting and hopefully will tell certain people certain things...;);) The most interesting thing about it was the one where by the norse came over and planted norse people which i also never knew happened... hmm

The Scientician

The parts I've seen I've enjoyed. Keane isn't the best of presents imho but the people he interviews are usually great. It's a broad sweeping overview so would probably appeal more to a British (or other foreign) viewer people who've studied Irish history at school. I noticed one or two slight inaccuracies. I felt he jumbled up the dates of things a bit in his telling.

PatsytheNazi

Cynical Apathy wrote: »

I'd imagine RTE gave him a limit of 4 or 5 episodes to fit it all in.

There's a misconception among most "patriotic" Irish people that we were happy go lucky farmers living in bliss until the damned English came over and raped our grannies. When in fact 99% of the population were peasant slaves living in a feudal society under chieftains, provincial kings and high kings. Each one of these were as tyrannical as any British lord. The common Irish person had to do their willing, work their fingers to the bone, fight their wars all for a reward of food.

'Sigh' :rolleyes:. Yet another wannabe comedian...ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ

Duckworth_Luas

Cynical Apathy wrote: »

...fact 99% of the population were peasant slaves living in a feudal society under chieftains, provincial kings and high kings. Each one of these were as tyrannical as any British lord. The common Irish person had to do their willing, work their fingers to the bone, fight their wars all for a reward of food.

Crickey! So much fail it's impossible to quantify! Buy yourself a history book on Gaelic Ireland, available in all book stores.

KeithAFC

Good show. Still waiting to see the one on 1916 and the rising and the Somme (if it does get mentioned).

old hippy

owenc wrote: »

Oh yes i was watching it i didn't know irish people planted people in the mainland until i seen that which was very interesting and hopefully will tell certain people certain things...;);) The most interesting thing about it was the one where by the norse came over and planted norse people which i also never knew happened... hmm

Lolz @ the mainland

Cynical Apathy

Duckworth_Luas wrote: »

Crickey! So much fail it's impossible to quantify! Buy yourself a history book on Gaelic Ireland, available in all book stores.

Just prior to the Norman invasion, who worked for the tuath, the over-kings, the provincial kings etc?.. and fought their wars? Maybe not in the traditional sense of the word (feudalism) which there's a lot of debate over, but I would still describe it as a land of hierarchy who rule over peasants and slaves. The Irish armies, were levies forced to fight by their rulers. In that sense I stand by what I've said and unless you're willing to quantify, your opinion is useless...

For most Irish people nothing really changed until the atrocious Elizabethan times.

weeboab

Was watching this tonight, and was very surprised to discover that James Connolly was in fact born in Glasgow!!!
Strange then that I used to live in the Cowgate area of Edinburgh, where the tenement block where I had a flat, actually had a plaque on the wall describing it as the birthplace of James Connolly. I must also inform my friends in the James Connolly Society in Edinburgh, that they are in fact marching in the wrong city to commemorate this great Scottish Socialist.

Maybe Feargal is thinking of that other great son of Scotland, Billy Connolly, who was in fact born in Glasgow, but maybe didn't have quite the same impact on workers rights?

Penfailed

I find it good viewing. I also saw it tonight and have watched every episode. I think the time constraints limit the detail too much though.

V480

weeboab wrote: »

Was watching this tonight, and was very surprised to discover that James Connolly was in fact born in Glasgow!!!
Strange then that I used to live in the Cowgate area of Edinburgh, where the tenement block where I had a flat, actually had a plaque on the wall describing it as the birthplace of James Connolly. I must also inform my friends in the James Connolly Society in Edinburgh, that they are in fact marching in the wrong city to commemorate this great Scottish Socialist.

Maybe Feargal is thinking of that other great son of Scotland, Billy Connolly, who was in fact born in Glasgow, but maybe didn't have quite the same impact on workers rights?

That's right, Connelly was born in Edinburgh, his father used to shovel ****e for a living, sorry I couldn't think of a more polite way of putting it. Isn't Billy Connelly of Irish parentage??

I missed the last few epsisodes so hopefully this will be repeated or released on dvd. It was a very well put together series in my view, though I know not everybody agrees on its content. The last episode was possibly the weakest of the ones I saw, though that's possibly because it focused on the period of Irish history I am most familiar with already.

A.Tomas

This was such a terrible piece of tripe. Possibly the worst documentary on RTÉ ever?

Listen, believe what you read in your history books at school because that really happened.:cool:

Sigh

Fergal Keane OBE presents (badly) a highly edited, sanitised (didn't spend much time on the oul' Famine), inaccurate, cliché-ridden ( forced Irish, gaelic, catholic, inward looking sh1te) and above all pro-British view of Irish history.

Another unfortunately revisionist (they haven't gone away either you know)
lackey.

weeboab

V480 wrote: »

That's right, Connelly was born in Edinburgh, his father used to shovel ****e for a living, sorry I couldn't think of a more polite way of putting it. Isn't Billy Connelly of Irish parentage??

I missed the last few epsisodes so hopefully this will be repeated or released on dvd. It was a very well put together series in my view, though I know not everybody agrees on its content. The last episode was possibly the weakest of the ones I saw, though that's possibly because it focused on the period of Irish history I am most familiar with already.

James Connolly was born of 2 Irish immigrants from Monaghan.
Billy Connolly had Scottish parents, although his Grandfather was Irish.

sensibleken

A.Tomas wrote: »

This was such a terrible piece of tripe. Possibly the worst documentary on RTÉ ever?

Listen, believe what you read in your history books at school because that really happened.:cool:

Sigh

Fergal Keane OBE presents (badly) a highly edited, sanitised (didn't spend much time on the oul' Famine), inaccurate, cliché-ridden ( forced Irish, gaelic, catholic, inward looking sh1te) and above all pro-British view of Irish history.

Another unfortunately revisionist (they haven't gone away either you know)
lackey.

Anything in particular you had objections too? I am for one glad they didnt spend too long on the famine, they spent longer on that than they did on the norman invasion and the cromwellian campaign

MarchDub

Cynical Apathy wrote: »

There's a misconception among most "patriotic" Irish people that we were happy go lucky farmers living in bliss until the damned English came over and raped our grannies. When in fact 99% of the population were peasant slaves living in a feudal society under chieftains, provincial kings and high kings. Each one of these were as tyrannical as any British lord. The common Irish person had to do their willing, work their fingers to the bone, fight their wars all for a reward of food.

Duckworth_Luas wrote: »

Crickey! So much fail it's impossible to quantify! Buy yourself a history book on Gaelic Ireland, available in all book stores.

Agree Duckworth - from what we know of Ireland prior to the Norman invasion via the Law Tracts and the Irish Annals this thesis cannot be supported. Feudalism was unknown in Ireland and in fact this was one of the major stress points for the English crown as regards Ireland.

But the wider issue of any foreign invasion should not depend on the state - or perceived state - of any autonomous nation - or the propaganda supporting that invasion. In the case of Ireland we have to 'thank' Geraldus Cambrensis for this distortion of the state of Ireland.

If that were the case - i.e. invasions are less egregious if the invaded are determined to be 'savage' - we would be supporting invasions [including the invasion of Iraq] all over the world.

A.Tomas

sensibleken wrote: »

Anything in particular you had objections too? I am for one glad they didnt spend too long on the famine, they spent longer on that than they did on the norman invasion and the cromwellian campaign

hhhhmmmm... why indeed would a documentary on those cer-az-ay Irish for a British audience not want to deal with the issues of the Famine? I wonder?

Penfailed

A.Tomas wrote: »

hhhhmmmm... why indeed would a documentary on those cer-az-ay Irish for a British audience not want to deal with the issues of the Famine? I wonder?

...but it's not 'for a British audience'. It was/is broadcast on RTE and BBC NI.

sensibleken

A.Tomas wrote: »

hhhhmmmm... why indeed would a documentary on those cer-az-ay Irish for a British audience not want to deal with the issues of the Famine? I wonder?

they did deal with the famine. didnt you watch the programme?

A.Tomas

sensibleken wrote: »

they did deal with the famine. didnt you watch the programme?

Spent more time showing some eejit, trying to make a name for himself jumping on a now defunct bandwagon, staring ruefully into the distance than the famine.

It was not a very good programme.:cool:

sensibleken

A.Tomas wrote: »

Spent more time showing some eejit, trying to make a name for himself jumping on a now defunct bandwagon, staring ruefully into the distance than the famine.

It was not a very good programme.:cool:

So the answer is no then, youre not going to say what was specifically wrong with it. bandwagon?

A.Tomas

sensibleken wrote: »

So the answer is no then, youre not going to say what was specifically wrong with it. bandwagon?

As I mentioned earlier, it was a remedial, heavily edited and skimmed through "history of Ireland" full of clichés and inaccuracies. Read a your secondary school history book for a history of Ireland!


The fact that it cleary and quite happily had a pro-Britsh bias (it was Roy Foster's series really-look him up) almost gives it a credibility it does not deserve.

sensibleken

A.Tomas wrote: »

As I mentioned earlier, it was a remedial, heavily edited and skimmed through "history of Ireland" full of clichés and inaccuracies. Read a your secondary school history book for a history of Ireland!


The fact that it cleary and quite happily had a pro-Britsh bias (it was Roy Foster's series really-look him up) almost gives it a credibility it does not deserve.

What was inaccurate? What was cliched? It certainly was abreviated but 6000 years is a long time to compress into 4 hours.

Cynical Apathy

weeboab wrote: »

Was watching this tonight, and was very surprised to discover that James Connolly was in fact born in Glasgow!!!
Strange then that I used to live in the Cowgate area of Edinburgh, where the tenement block where I had a flat, actually had a plaque on the wall describing it as the birthplace of James Connolly. I must also inform my friends in the James Connolly Society in Edinburgh, that they are in fact marching in the wrong city to commemorate this great Scottish Socialist.

Maybe Feargal is thinking of that other great son of Scotland, Billy Connolly, who was in fact born in Glasgow, but maybe didn't have quite the same impact on workers rights?

I haven't seen that one yet. Connolly has to be the most underrated and under-discussed, true heroes of Irish History. All I know is that there is very little known about him. I have great respect for his Socialist views and seemingly Collins said he'd be willing to die for him.

boynesider

I have been watching the re-runs on RTE lately having missed it the first time and I have to say that it is absolutely terrible. Fergal Keane is a man who is clearly weighted down with his own prejudices and skewed interpretations of history so why on earth was he entrusted with such an important series?

The ones I have seen so far are not of an acceptable historical standard and are riddled with selectivity and straightforward lies. As usual there is nothing really glaringly obvious, but it is the small details which are revealing. It has a clear agenda to tell Irish history the way either the average British middle-class adult, or any of the multitude of apologists for British rule in ireland would like to see it.

Why is it so hard to make a decent documentary on Irish history? I don't think I have ever seen one which wasn't burdened by petty biases and insecurities.

Fratton Fred

boynesider wrote: »

I have been watching the re-runs on RTE lately having missed it the first time and I have to say that it is absolutely terrible. Fergal Keane is a man who is clearly weighted down with his own prejudices and skewed interpretations of history so why on earth was he entrusted with such an important series?

The ones I have seen so far are not of an acceptable historical standard and are riddled with selectivity and straightforward lies. As usual there is nothing really glaringly obvious, but it is the small details which are revealing. It has a clear agenda to tell Irish history the way either the average British middle-class adult, or any of the multitude of apologists for British rule in ireland would like to see it.

Why is it so hard to make a decent documentary on Irish history? I don't think I have ever seen one which wasn't burdened by petty biases and insecurities.

So in other words, it didn't support your view, so it was crap.

boynesider

Fratton Fred wrote: »

So in other words, it didn't support your view, so it was crap.

Eh, what??

Try reading the middle paragraph of what I wrote again, particularly the first line. I didn't think it was that hard to understand

Fratton Fred

boynesider wrote: »

Eh, what??

Try reading the middle paragraph of what I wrote again, particularly the first line. I didn't think it was that hard to understand

But you can't give any examples?

Two posters saying it was rubbish, but neither can say why. That sounds odd to me.

boynesider

Fratton Fred wrote: »

But you can't give any examples?

Two posters saying it was rubbish, but neither can say why. That sounds odd to me.

As I said it's the little things which in combination distort historical accuracy in order to create a distinctive narrative for whatever purposes. I would have to watch the episodes again and note down all the examples in order to give a comprehensive list, but I can assure you it is full of falsehoods and selectivity.

Off the top of my head from last night, the description of the Scullabogue massacre as sectarian and the constant, petty attempts to reduce Irish history to purely tribal lines. He even made the remarkable assertion that never again after 1798 would Protestants and Catholics be joined together in a separatist cause (truly bizarre, because only 5 years later we had Emmet, and then throughout the 19th Century an array of Protestants would lead both the peaceful Nationalist movement and the various violent uprisings).

I am no raving republican, and if someone made a programme distorting Irish history in order to suit a more nationalist agenda, I would criticize them just as much.

dmcronin

old hippy wrote: »

Lolz @ the mainland

Hate that term 'mainland'.... makes this place sound like a seagull-guano splattered Craggy Island.