Corinthians 3:16 3:23

hinault

Would anyone here like to try to interpret the meaning of this letter?


16 Do you not realise that you are a temple of God with the Spirit of God living in you?

17 If anybody should destroy the temple of God, God will destroy that person, because God's temple is holy; and you are that temple.

18 There is no room for self-delusion. Any one of you who thinks he is wise by worldly standards must learn to be a fool in order to be really wise.

19 For the wisdom of the world is folly to God. As scripture says: He traps the crafty in the snare of their own cunning

20 and again: The Lord knows the plans of the wise and how insipid they are.

21 So there is to be no boasting about human beings: everything belongs to you,

22 whether it is Paul, or Apollos, or Cephas, the world, life or death, the present or the future -- all belong to you;

23 but you belong to Christ and Christ belongs to God.

Seaneh

Here is the same scripture from "The Message" translation, which is an idiomatic, it's not word for word accurate but instead tries to make the scripture accessible to a contemporary audience. I wouldn't recommend it for every day use, but sometimes it's nice to have laying around to try break things down when it's all a bit "wordy".
I normally use the ESV but sometimes when talking to youth or non-Christians I'll use the message to help them along a bit.

1 Corinthians 3:16-23 (The Message)

16-17 You realize, don't you, that you are the temple of God, and God himself is present in you? No one will get by with vandalizing God's temple, you can be sure of that. God's temple is sacred—and you, remember, are the temple.

18-20 Don't fool yourself. Don't think that you can be wise merely by being up-to-date with the times. Be God's fool—that's the path to true wisdom. What the world calls smart, God calls stupid. It's written in Scripture,

He exposes the chicanery of the chic.
The Master sees through the smoke screens
of the know-it-alls.

21-23 I don't want to hear any of you bragging about yourself or anyone else. Everything is already yours as a gift—Paul, Apollos, Peter, the world, life, death, the present, the future—all of it is yours, and you are privileged to be in union with Christ, who is in union with God.


Does this help at all?

hinault

It is of help most certainly. Thanks.

18-20 is the tricky bit for me.
Wisdom?
The wisdom of this world is foolish to God.
Does this mean that man must be humble, even if he is wise?

The Lord knows the plans of the wise and how insipid they are.
what could this mean?
Perhaps it means that even if someone does everything right externally that God knows what is in man's heart?

It's an interesting letter and one that certainly is food for thought.

santing

Check 1 Cor 1:18 for the "wisdom" bit:

For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. For it is written, “I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and the discernment of the discerning I will thwart.” Where is the one who is wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? For since, in the wisdom of God, the world did not know God through wisdom, it pleased God through the folly of what we preach to save those who believe.
1 Cor 1:18-21 (NIV)

himnextdoor

I think that the author of that letter is trying to stall intellectual development. Wise is stupid? Really? Did not God make us to think?

This letter plays right into the hands of institutions such as the Catholic church was at the time of The Inquisition; those of learning and those of science are abhorrant to God. It is easier for the church to manipulate the ignorant by burning educated people who need more than faith to be convinced by the words of a priest.

How many lives were cruelly taken because such texts are included in the Bible?

PDN

himnextdoor wrote: »

I think that the author of that letter is trying to stall intellectual development. Wise is stupid? Really? Did not God make us to think?

This letter plays right into the hands of institutions such as the Catholic church was at the time of The Inquisition; those of learning and those of science are abhorrant to God. It is easier for the church to manipulate the ignorant by burning educated people who need more than faith to be convinced by the words of a priest.

How many lives were cruelly taken because such texts are included in the Bible?

Probably no lives at all. While burning people is indeed a nasty habit, the antics of the inquisition were directed at people for holding different religious views, not for being educated.

In those days it was the clergy and religious who were most into learning and science.

Fanny Cradock

himnextdoor wrote: »

I think that the author of that letter is trying to stall intellectual development. Wise is stupid? Really? Did not God make us to think?

It seems obvious to me that Paul intended this as a caution against arrogance and appeal to make oneself humble before God. Considering he was talking about this in context of his belief in the omnipotent and omniscient God of the Bible it seems like a reasonable enough caution.

himnextdoor wrote: »

This letter plays right into the hands of institutions such as the Catholic church was at the time of The Inquisition; those of learning and those of science are abhorrant to God. It is easier for the church to manipulate the ignorant by burning educated people who need more than faith to be convinced by the words of a priest.

Your words are ironic considering the RCC was the single most important supporter of natural philosophy (what later came to be called modern science) in those times. One need only look at the founders of the great universities dotted throughout Europe for evidence of this.

himnextdoor wrote: »

How many lives were cruelly taken because such texts are included in the Bible?

You tell me! But given that the text in question begins with a warning to anyone who would seek to destroy the "temple of God", I think it fair to suggest that the Inquisition wasn't paying much attention to this particular exhort.

himnextdoor

What Paul is actually saying is that God cannot protect you but if someone kills you then God will kill that person (except where the perpetrator applies for absolution).(???)

I'd prefer it if those who would smite me were prevented from doing so.

Have such 'temples' not been destroyed in their millions? When will Bush or Blair be destroyed? Never. They will die of old age, comfortable, happy and wealthy. And, probably, absolved of their sins.

Let us not forget, these are Paul's words, not God's and were designed to boost recruitment.

PDN

himnextdoor wrote: »

What Paul is actually saying is that God cannot protect you but if someone kills you then God will kill that person (except where the perpetrator applies for absolution).(???)

No, Paul isn't saying anything remotely like that.

Have such 'temples' not been destroyed in their millions? When will Bush or Blair be destroyed? Never. They will die of old age, comfortable, happy and wealthy. And, probably, absolved of their sins.

If you want to discuss Corinthians then feel free to do so, but please spare us the political rants.

Let us not forget, these are Paul's words, not God's and were designed to boost recruitment.

They were actually written to help a congregation of oppressed nobodies who were getting persecuted and screwed by the powerful people who thought they were so wise and clever.

himnextdoor

PDN wrote: »

They were actually written to help a congregation of oppressed nobodies who were getting persecuted and screwed by the powerful people who thought they were so wise and clever.

That's what I said; to boost recruitment.

What Paul was doing then is what premium-rate tarot readers are doing now; preying on weak and vulnerable people. Why did Paul not deal with the oppressors? Why wouldn't God? If God smote my enemies for me then I would be more likely to have faith but God doesn't. He allows evil to rule the world and and His church profits from it.

Finally, I don't see how an invitation to look at the state of the world constitutes a political rant.

Fanny Cradock

himnextdoor wrote: »

Why did Paul not deal with the oppressors? Why wouldn't God? If God smote my enemies for me then I would be more likely to have faith but God doesn't. He allows evil to rule the world and and His church profits from it.

Are you actually suggesting that Paul should have sorted out The Roman Empire and the hostile Jewish authorities? You do know what Paul's fate was, right? For that matter, you do know what those same authorities did to Jesus?

himnextdoor wrote: »

Why wouldn't God? If God smote my enemies for me then I would be more likely to have faith but God doesn't. He allows evil to rule the world and and His church profits from it.

A smiting you say! Are you also suggesting that if God *the creator and sustainer of the material universe* does some work for you it might be enough to get you to believe in him?

I think you have misunderstood the point of Christianity if you think it's about believing in God. Perhaps you should consider the rather evident notion that things like the cross, redemption, judgement and the renewal of all creation takes precedence over your demands of God.

himnextdoor

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

Are you actually suggesting that Paul should have sorted out The Roman Empire and the hostile Jewish authorities? You do know what Paul's fate was, right? For that matter, you do know what those same authorities did to Jesus?

Why not? Moses marched right up to the Pharoah with God in attendance. He didn't start a club and get the slaves in captivity to join on the promise of salvation, he went straight to the head honcho and demanded freedom for his people. He had the protection of God. Why didn't Paul have the same protection?

And Jesus was supposed to die; He was the Messiah.

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

A smiting you say! Are you also suggesting that if God *the creator and sustainer of the material universe* does some work for you it might be enough to get you to believe in him?

No, what I'm saying is that if God is willing to inseminate a twelve-year old girl, is willing to convince the Maji not to return to Herod (causing the massacre of many babies), is willing to let people see miracles, none of which can be described as subtle, the why won't He talk in some meaningful way to me?

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

I think you have misunderstood the point of Christianity if you think it's about believing in God. Perhaps you should consider the rather evident notion that things like the cross, redemption, judgement and the renewal of all creation takes precedence over your demands of God.

No, all you need to do is believe in Christ and repent. Absolution is a free pass to heaven, isn't it?

But what are God's demands of me. To think this way? To say the things I say? To know what I know?

Anyway, why is redemption so important to God? Why should the creator be concerned with mankind? Don't you think He's trying too hard?

If there is a God of creation then the earth is nothing more than speck of dust behind his fridge.
It is theoretically possible that Hitler could have got into heaven.

Seaneh

moses was also the pharoahs brother...

So its not exactly the same, is it...


paul wouldn't have got within 100 meters of the emperor. And he did make it known to authority how he felt, hence the horrible execution...

Seaneh

also. Yes believing in christ and repenting is your way to salvation. But I think James deals with the idea that simple believing is enough is 1 James quite well. Anyone Can say they believe and repent but unless they actually are outwardly changed, where is the proof. In repenting you should automatically accept that you are broken and want to change. This included sacrificing your old ways so that you can lead a more christ like life.

Dwaegon

Seaneh wrote: »

18-20 Don't fool yourself. Don't think that you can be wise merely by being up-to-date with the times. Be God's fool—that's the path to true wisdom. What the world calls smart, God calls stupid. It's written in Scripture,

One of two things is going on here! Either you are smart in this world, meaning god thinks you are stupid, or you are stupid and god thinks you're smart.

Does this mean heaven is full of idiots?

I don't wanna go there if it is...

Seaneh

no. Context is king. And you clearly do not comprehend the context.

himnextdoor

Seaneh wrote: »

moses was also the pharoahs brother...

So its not exactly the same, is it...


paul wouldn't have got within 100 meters of the emperor. And he did make it known to authority how he felt, hence the horrible execution...

Before his conversion, Saul was a vile and murderous man who killed Christians. Why did Jesus appear to him as opposed to say, Nero. If Nero had been converted then the cause of Christianity would have been better served.

Also, if God had saved Paul, his followers would know a miracle and would know that God was helping them. They must have viewed that situation with curious trepidation. They would have felt sure that God would come from heaven on a chariot smiting those who would destroy His temple. He never came though. And those who killed Paul went unpunished.

What I can't understand though is that Saul didn't believe; Jesus had to personally appear to him before he would believe. How can that be reconciled with the blind faith required from the rest of us? It was the same with Mary; she had faith because, she believed, an angel had spoken to her and told her what her future would be. Then she had proof; no need for faith. Her certain knowledge made her blindly obedient and she took on the role of mother of the Messiah.

Why is it that God, or Jesus, is willing to be forthright and direct with some humans but invisible and secretive from the rest of us who have to take someone else's word for it?

Think about it; none of the founders of Christianity were required to have faith, they all had proof. They knew empirically that God exists. Don't you think it strange that it is only the people who contribute to the collection plate that can only attain the kingdom of heaven through faith?

Dwaegon

Seaneh wrote: »

no. Context is king. And you clearly do not comprehend the context.

Does that mean I'm stupid enough to go to heaven?

himnextdoor

Seaneh wrote: »

also. Yes believing in christ and repenting is your way to salvation. But I think James deals with the idea that simple believing is enough is 1 James quite well. Anyone Can say they believe and repent but unless they actually are outwardly changed, where is the proof. In repenting you should automatically accept that you are broken and want to change. This included sacrificing your old ways so that you can lead a more christ like life.

As an aside can I ask this; there were many men of ill-repute that were offered absolution for taking part in the Crusades but do you think they entered the kingdom of heaven?

Seaneh

Dwaegon wrote: »

Does that mean I'm stupid enough to go to heaven?

It means you're not educated enough in the subject of the book of corinthians to make comments on it's contents.

Dwaegon

Seaneh wrote: »

It means you're not educated enough in the subject of the book of corinthians to make comments on it's contents.

It's ok! I found a version that's waaay clearer!

16 U iz Ceiling Cat's tempul. Ceiling Cat's spirit iz in u, givin u cheezburgr.
17 If ennibodi nox down Ceiling Cat's tempul, Ceiling Cat will nok him down. Dat shud maek u feel betterz.
18 Dont get trix0red LOL. If u thinkz u is smart it is bettr to become stupid n get smartr from dere.
19 Liek I sed befor, teh wisdm of teh wurld is dum to Ceiling Cat. Sum d00d rited "He catchiz teh wise in their clevrness";
20 oh yeah n "Ceiling Cat knows dat teh thotz of teh wise iz good for nuffing."
21 So quit braggin about d00dz! Evrithing is urz,
22 Paul or Apollos or Rocky or teh world or lief or deth or now or latr - evrithing,
23 n u iz Christ n Christ is Ceiling Cat's.

Am I smart enough now?

Seaneh

nope, because you still don't know this social, historical or geographical context of the letter. Who it was written to, why it was written, when it was written, etc.

You could quote any number of translations and it wouldn't change that until you actually understood the things listed above.
So either read the letter as it was meant to be read or, I dunno, just go troll somewhere else?

Dwaegon

Seaneh wrote: »

nope, because you still don't know this social, historical or geographical context of the letter. Who it was written to, why it was written, when it was written, etc.

You could quote any number of translations and it wouldn't change that until you actually understood the things listed above.
So either read the letter as it was meant to be read or, I dunno, just go troll somewhere else?

I sure will! *wink*

By the way, thanks for offering absolutely no information that actually may have helped me understand the passage, and instead just calling me stupid for not knowing the comprehensive contextual background of the entire bible!

Had you actually not been a complete d**k to me from the start, perhaps I would have engaged in more serious discussion about the actual passage at hand, but you disregarded me as unworthy of discussing anything with you as you are clearly better than me for knowing more about the bible than I do!

Seaneh

I dismissed you as your first post was clearly trolling.
I don't expect anyone (besides biblical scholars) to have a complete contextual understanding of the bible, I certainly don't myself. But I do expect people to have some idea what they are talking about before they make retarded comments and try to be funny.

I wouldn't go into the science forums or the plumbing forums and post bollocks on subjects I know nothing about trying to be funny, because it would be retarded. I expect the same to apply across all of boards.ie...

And just to clarify, I don't think I am better or smarter than anyone.
I will however point out nonsense and trolling when I see it.

Dwaegon

Seaneh wrote: »

I dismissed you as your first post was clearly trolling.
I don't expect anyone (besides biblical scholars) to have a complete contextual understanding of the bible, I certainly don't myself. But I do expect people to have some idea what they are talking about before they make retarded comments and try to be funny.

I wouldn't go into the science forums or the plumbing forums and post bollocks on subjects I know nothing about trying to be funny, because it would be retarded. I expect the same to apply across all of boards.ie...

And just to clarify, I don't think I am better or smarter than anyone.
I will however point out nonsense and trolling when I see it.

So I ask a question, get a one word answer with an insult attached, and now I'm being branded a troll!

Clearly I don't understand! If i'm here, maybe I WANT TO UNDERSTAND!

Unfortunately, the only person posting at the moment, is a great big @$$hole who won't help anyone because if he does, he is afraid he will be wrong and look stupid in front of all the bible-boardsies!

Now I'm done, goodbye, and thanks for absolute fcukall!

santing

In chapter 1 Paul clearly explains what the wisdom of God entails: the crucifixion of Jesus Christ, his Son. This - says Paul - was God's masterplan, and showing us His wisdom.
For the world, for mankind, dying on the cross is not the way to gain followers, nor a known way to save the world, or your country? Would you vote for Mr X. if he promises to get killed on election day for you? So dying on a cross if in our eyes plainly stupid.
But if we think about it, we must agree with God. What is foolish in our eyes was the best (and only) way of salvation. So therefore Paul says that the foolishness of God is wiser than the wisest act of mankind.
Let's look at it the other way - lets' take the best of human minds and ask them for a recipe for eternal life. They will most likely give us only one thing ... it is not possible. So the wisdom of man cannot save us ... but the foolishness of God can!
So Paul doesn't ask us to become fools - he asks us to accept that a "foolish" plan of God contaied more wisdom than we ever cpould have imagined. Than look at your own life and decide - is it my wisdom, or would I let it governed by something wiser - even (if seems to me) the foolishness (which really is wisdom) of God.

Fanny Cradock

Dwaegon wrote: »

Does that mean I'm stupid enough to go to heaven?

Let's leave that up to God. But have a yellow for attempting to bait your targets.

I belatedly noticed that an infraction was issued before my warning. Accordingly I've rescinded the warning (which might take some time happen).

BengaLover

Leading up to the verses:
The letter was written out of Pauls deep concern for the believers, the Corinthian group was relatively new, and Paul had previously received a letter from them and had heard disturbing reports - he felt that letter required a reply.

For most of the book of Corinthians 1 Paul is exposing sectarianism and reminding that they need to be united.
He wants their faith to be in Gods power, not in mens wisdom.
(Some were 'following men'), Apollos, or Paul and Paul was reminding them that these were only men through whom the Corinthians became believers.
The ones planting and watering are not anything for 'God kept making it grow' and they are his 'fellow workers'.

Fanny Cradock

Do you suppose like was then all hunky-dory for Moses and the Israelites?

himnextdoor wrote: »

Why didn't Paul have the same protection?

Have you read Acts? Paul did have protection. But he also died at the hand of people who chose to kill him. If you think that Christianity is all about God making your life safe and perfect - rather than a larger eschatology - you have been paying too much attention to guys like Joel Osteen.

himnextdoor wrote: »

And Jesus was supposed to die; He was the Messiah.

Life is hard and it's full of people who will do bad things. Both Jesus and Paul knew of this. Both understood that their actions brought them to the attention of people who were violently opposed to the message.

himnextdoor wrote: »

... a twelve-year old girl

And how do you know such a thing?

himnextdoor wrote: »

the why won't He talk in some meaningful way to me?

I can't know such things. But it seems reasonable to suggest that the great silence you are afflicted with might just be related to your attitude. You seem to be raging against a God you don't believe in and make extraordinary demands of him. Frankly, if you brought the same approach into to any other relationship it wouldn't prosper.

himnextdoor wrote: »

But what are God's demands of me. To think this way? To say the things I say? To know what I know?

And what is it that you know?

himnextdoor wrote: »

Why should the creator be concerned with mankind? Don't you think He's trying too hard?

In the lines above you criticise God for not trying hard enough. Now you criticise him for trying too hard. Make your mind up.

himnextdoor wrote: »

If there is a God of creation then the earth is nothing more than speck of dust behind his fridge.

Back again! This rapid shuffling of positions is not helping. Is it safe to say that you now believe that he isn't trying too hard?

himnextdoor wrote: »

It is theoretically possible that Hitler could have got into heaven.

What has that got to do with anything?