Enda Kenny on Vincent Browne tonight

dave1982 · 22-02-2011 1:10am #1

What a sicking interview.

I have to admit i was getting fooled up till tonight.

Not a single straight answer from him. Ursula asked him numerous times what happen's if the IMF deal is not negotiable and they say NO!!

"Do you have a plan B "?

He went off saying she was presumptuous thinking that he would be elected and that she again was being presumptuous to say the IMF would refuse.

Asked again where she stated clearly IF you are ....

Off he went on their 5 point plan

Going by his silence and refusal to answer

Frying pan to the fire come's to mind

Absolutely sickened by him tonight,he looked uncomfortable and made no sense at all in my mind.Interview went no where

No wonder he refuse's to be interviewed by Vincent

zig · 22-02-2011 1:14am

I saw it, and yes , just when i was starting to slip, starting to think , maybe FG might be a viable option, maybe real change is actually coming, maybe theres something to actually look forward to I got reminded tonight why I hated FG so much in the first place.
The only difference between him and Lenihan of the past few years is that Lenihan had at least about 1/10th of a clue, Kenny is completely lost

gsxr1 · 22-02-2011 1:16am

I just dont get his electorate.

He is not even likable .

We are really screwed with him at the helm.

hardcore · 22-02-2011 1:19am

This man will be the worst leader in the country's history and will outdo Biffo

meglome · 22-02-2011 1:22am

hardcore wrote: »

This man will be the worst leader in the country's history and will outdo Biffo

He'd need to be out murdering children to be worse than we've just had.

gsxr1 wrote: »

I just dont get his electorate.

He is not even likable .

We are really screwed with him at the helm.

My mother still loves Bertie... It just as well electing 'popular' leaders has worked out so well.

22-02-2011 1:23am

Just when you thought you couldn't get much worse than FF, god help us !

Side Show Bob · 22-02-2011 1:24am

It's really not good at all, not only are we £ucked as a small country, now we are going to be led by small town 35 years of nothing to show in politics a complete bloody idiot.

The upside is that he will keep labour out, and his people may keep him out of sight and never let him make a decision on his own

Syferus · 22-02-2011 1:25am

It's not the Enda the world, mate.

dave1982 · 22-02-2011 1:29am

Syferus wrote: »

It's not the Enda the world, mate.

Haha took me awhile:D

Side Show Bob · 22-02-2011 1:32am

Syferus wrote: »

It's not the Enda the world, mate.

Hope it's not the Enda us all

bc dub · 22-02-2011 1:35am

in an unfortante possible twist, could we at least hope that if, sorry, when he does get in, will his incompetence possibly lead us to our own peaceful uprising?

Einhard · 22-02-2011 1:35am

gsxr1 wrote: »

I just dont get his electorate.

He is not even likable .

We are really screwed with him at the helm.

Bertie was likable.

Everyone loved Cowen when the first became taioseach.

Martin is as smooth and personable and charismatic as they come.

Kenny is a bit wooden, a bit stiff, and doesn't come across too well in media situations. He has though rebuilt and revitalised a party which some thought doomed after their 2002 GE performance. He has surrounded himself with an extremely competent frontbench team, and allowed them the leeway to act on their own initiative. He was ridiculed 2 years ago when he announced the abolition of the Seanad- now every party proposes some variation of his theme. His was the only party to come out against benchmarking, even though they knew it would do them no favours electorally. His is the only party that has clearly and consistently stated that the pain of the recession and financial collapse will have to be felt across the board.

So, dismiss Kenny because he doesn't have the charisma of the other leaders. Vote on the shallow basis of personality rather than on substance. But don't, having done so, complain in a few years time that we haven't progressed as a nation. You vote for superficial reasons, you get a superficial government.

View · 22-02-2011 1:37am

dave1982 wrote: »

What a sicking interview.

I have to admit i was getting fooled up till tonight.

Not a single straight answer from him. Ursula asked him numerous times what happen's if the IMF deal is not negotiable and they say NO!!

"Do you have a plan B "?

He went off saying she was presumptuous thinking that he would be elected and that she again was being presumptuous to say the IMF would refuse.

To translate, there is no plan B and plan A consists of a couple of Government Ministers and IMF officials standing around for journalists to take their pictures and talking about "Going forward..." (i.e. we'll have some more meetings for further photos at a later date).

Chucky the tree · 22-02-2011 1:43am

What other party does have a plan B? Labour want to renegiate too, but what if they can't? I know SF are relying on magic pixies to fly down with pots of money so obviously their plans are economically sound.

zenno · 22-02-2011 1:46am

dave1982 wrote: »

What a sicking interview.

I have to admit i was getting fooled up till tonight.

Not a single straight answer from him. Ursula asked him numerous times what happen's if the IMF deal is not negotiable and they say NO!!

"Do you have a plan B "?

He went off saying she was presumptuous thinking that he would be elected and that she again was being presumptuous to say the IMF would refuse.

Asked again where she stated clearly IF you are ....

Off he went on their 5 point plan

Going by his silence and refusal to answer

Frying pan to the fire come's to mind

Absolutely sickened by him tonight,he looked uncomfortable and made no sense at all in my mind.Interview went no where

No wonder he refuse's to be interviewed by Vincent

yes' and unfortunately the irish people will vote him in. what does that tell you about the braindead mentality of irish voters. god help us all.

flynnlives · 22-02-2011 1:47am

Ya go a vote for someone with a good personality!!
Sure Bertie was a nice guy!!!

Did it ever occur to you OP that one of the reasons we are in this mess is because of "personalities"?!

Maybe we need a blank, a guy whos not gonna say much and just get on with it. Frankly the less politicians say the better because they waffle to much.
Kenny has a decent team, Noonan is very shrewd and i beleive the best man to send to europe. Bruton is good also.

Lenihan is a spoofer!! They will me teaching economics students in years to come on Lennys idiotic policies. They will hold up his bank gaurantee as a prime example of how not deal with a banking crisis!!

Im not a FG supporter btw.

The 5 point plan is decent enough.
I hope it works.

Side Show Bob · 22-02-2011 1:54am

flynnlives wrote: »

Ya go a vote for someone with a good personality!!

Maybe we need a blank, a guy whos not gonna say much and just get on with it. Frankly the less politicians say the better because they waffle to much.
Kenny has a decent team, Noonan is very shrewd and i beleive the best man to send to europe. Bruton is good too

35 years Kenny has achieved nothing, nothing at all, his own people are hiding him,
Noonan's past preformance as minister for health??? Real shrewd!!!

flynnlives · 22-02-2011 2:00am

Micheal Martin spent 14 years in goverment smiling and dodging his way thru it!!
He established the HSE, the HSE has 8 layers of management! 8 ****ing layers!! NASA doesnt have 8 layers of management ffs!!

The man is all style and zero substance.
Another Bertie!

btw what did Bertie do in the Dail for 20 years before he became Taoiseach except sign blank checks for Haughey and not have a bank account?!!

Hannibal · 22-02-2011 2:04am

He looks extremely uncomfortable and has absolutely no charisma. The spoof Mario done on him with the rope tied around his arms has him down to a tee.
In fairness to Kenny he will cut unemployment.. because half the country will leave rather than be stuck with him

ajc100 · 22-02-2011 2:05am

It shouldn't be about personality's, this election is far too important than that.
It should be about national policy's, leave the local stuff to the people we voted for in the last local elections.

BUT....

We do need a strong leader that can articulate these policy's and on tonights showing Enda certainly isn't that person.
If FG have no one stronger than that, then they don't deserve to be in power.

Jim Stark · 22-02-2011 2:08am

gsxr1 wrote: »

I just dont get his electorate.

He is not even likable .

We are really screwed with him at the helm.

I know! Bring back Bertie! Am I right FFer's?! haha

You guys are the ones who are truly lost!

It would have been foolish for Enda to start going into speculation on negotiations with the IMF, and plan b's and stuff like that. People are right to be curious about these issues. But negotiations are very delicate proceedings, that require a lot of tact, and diplomacy, not like Joe Higgins. When everyone is watching, from europe, and the IMF, it's not wise to do, or say anything that can compromise your position.

zig · 22-02-2011 2:09am

Einhard wrote: »

Bertie was likable.

Everyone loved Cowen when the first became taioseach.

Martin is as smooth and personable and charismatic as they come.

Kenny is a bit wooden, a bit stiff, and doesn't come across too well in media situations. He has though rebuilt and revitalised a party which some thought doomed after their 2002 GE performance. He has surrounded himself with an extremely competent frontbench team, and allowed them the leeway to act on their own initiative. He was ridiculed 2 years ago when he announced the abolition of the Seanad- now every party proposes some variation of his theme. His was the only party to come out against benchmarking, even though they knew it would do them no favours electorally. His is the only party that has clearly and consistently stated that the pain of the recession and financial collapse will have to be felt across the board.

So, dismiss Kenny because he doesn't have the charisma of the other leaders. Vote on the shallow basis of personality rather than on substance. But don't, having done so, complain in a few years time that we haven't progressed as a nation. You vote for superficial reasons, you get a superficial government.

the rest of your post, fair enough, but for the bold part...
We arent talking about personality here, we are talking about someone who clearly cant articulate this 'substance', the next leader of our country, the man who will be dealing with financial matters at the highest level. Its his job to understand and explain to the people what needs to be done and why, not use some of the same FF waffle. He is going down the exact same route as FF in terms of trying to weasel his way out of questions with his 5 point plan, not giving clear and concise answers to tough questions.
So no, you cant just put him at the opposite end of the spectrum compare to Bertie, Bertie was a leader in different times, Bertie could waffle away but as long as PS spending was going up and up and up no one was going to complain.
I wouldnt mind if he was just boring but actually knew what he was talking about.
And this talk of him taking FG to the top after such dismal results in the past again reeks of FF party before country politics.
A party shouldn't be about the party, it should be about the country.

That said i accept your point about him surrounding himself in a competent frontbench team, so lets hope he sticks to that plan.

dave1982 · 22-02-2011 2:09am

flynnlives wrote: »

Ya go a vote for someone with a good personality!!
Sure Bertie was a nice guy!!!

Did it ever occur to you OP that one of the reasons we are in this mess is because of "personalities"?!

Maybe we need a blank, a guy whos not gonna say much and just get on with it. Frankly the less politicians say the better because they waffle to much.
Kenny has a decent team, Noonan is very shrewd and i beleive the best man to send to europe. Bruton is good also.

Lenihan is a spoofer!! They will me teaching economics students in years to come on Lennys idiotic policies. They will hold up his bank gaurantee as a prime example of how not deal with a banking crisis!!

Im not a FG supporter btw.

The 5 point plan is decent enough.
I hope it works.

Its honestly not "personalities" i'm voting on.

I'm voting for who can help me and you normal ordinary people with families.

A party that will put us first not help out the bank's and look after themselves.(fairy tale thinking i know)

And give us straight answers.

If Enda turned around tonight and said if changing the IMF deal don't work.
There is not much we can do only go along with the deal FF put in place,but i can assure me and my party are the best option to lead us through this disaster.

A simple honest statement means a lot to me,and he would get a lot of respect for it.But no it's the usual FF bull from FG avoiding answer's trying side step the person interviewing them,by waffling about nothing to do with the question

And another thing who ever gos into power needs to feel threatened by the people.We can not let them get comfortable like FF did when they were in power.The more comfortable they are the more lazy they get and we get forgotten.They need to be kept on their toes

dixiefly · 22-02-2011 2:14am

zenno wrote: »

yes' and unfortunately the irish people will vote him in. what does that tell you about the braindead mentality of irish voters. god help us all.

And what better option do we have?

flynnlives · 22-02-2011 2:19am

The deal will be renegotiated, trust me!

With portugal getting screwed on the bond markets there will be increasing jitters in brussels over Spain and Italy.

Merkel and co have been stringing everyone along testing the waters for the last 2 years, buttering up the markets re bondholders.
Burden sharing will happen. It has to happen if they are to stop contagion. They will widen the stabilisation fund and also pump up the presses to try and print their way outta this.

The best we can do is try and position ourselves as defacto leaders of the PIIGS. Ireland has negotiated some serious deals before in europe batting way above our league. Sadly that was lost with the lazy spoofery of the last 14 years. We were good at diplomacy.
As Colm McCarthy said "we need to play broken rugby" and I reckon Noonan is the ideal shrewd operator for this. Plus they will have Peter Mathews and possibly Paul Sommerville as expert advisors.

dave1982 · 22-02-2011 2:23am

flynnlives wrote: »

The deal will be renegotiated, trust me!

With portugal getting screwed on the bond markets there will be increasing jitters in brussels over Spain and Italy.

Merkel and co have been stringing everyone along testing the waters for the last 2 years.
Burden sharing will happen. They will widen the stabilisation fund and also pump up the presses to try and print their way outta this.

The best we can do is try and position ourselves as defacto leaders of the PIIGS. Ireland has negotiated some serious deals before in europe batting way above our league. Sadly that was lost with the lazy spoofery of the last 14 years. We were good at diplomacy.
As Colm McCarthy said "we need to play broken rugby" I reckon Noonan is the ideal shrewd operator for this.

Sincerely hope you are right.:)

flynnlives · 22-02-2011 2:27am

dave1982 wrote: »

Sincerely hope you are right.:)

Its not going to be easy tho, well you know.

This year will be the worst yet.

If we can survive the next 2 years we will be on the slow path to recovery.

dave1982 · 22-02-2011 2:31am

Agreed the worse it yet to come,and i feel the bank's once again will be to fault raising their interest rates

flynnlives · 22-02-2011 2:33am

The immediate problem is Mortgage default.
Whether you like it or not and i dont, i realise its now time to man up and help these people out.

If we dont they will drag us all down and no amount of 5 point plans, "Enda the blank" or "the great communicator" Martin will help.

One think that caught my attention today which was largely ignored was the bishops call to beware of violence/public disorder over the
recession. That was very telling imo and not in a controlling the masses kinda way.

davidv · 22-02-2011 2:35am

hardcore wrote: »

This man will be the worst leader in the country's history and will outdo Biffo

"umm..bla..bla..bla.umm emm 5 poinplan..um..emmwe hava..emm..umm.the 5pointplan..."

Is he really going to get away with this til friday?He's totally clueless.

dave1982 · 22-02-2011 2:49am

flynnlives wrote: »

The immediate problem is Mortgage default.
Whether you like it or not and i dont, i realise its now time to man up and help these people out.

If we dont they will drag us all down and no amount of 5 point plans, "Enda the blank" or "the great communicator" Martin will help.

One think that caught my attention today which was largely ignored was the bishops call to beware of violence/public disorder over the
recession. That was very telling imo and not in a controlling the masses kinda way.

Agreed once again Mortgage default is our next problem and banks raising rates is adding fuel to the already burning fire.

Regarding the bishops statement a report from last year regarding Gardai in secret riot training

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/gardai-train-in-secret-for-riots-2182078.html

meglome · 22-02-2011 2:51am

davidv wrote: »

"umm..bla..bla..bla.umm emm 5 poinplan..um..emmwe hava..emm..umm.the 5pointplan..."

Is he really going to get away with this til friday?He's totally clueless.

Why didn't you use one of your other accounts?

I find it incredible people can say Bertie and Cowan, who destroyed the country, are better than Kenny, just cause he hasn't got the best personality in the world. Sure they should have got a new leader but he's a massive step up from what we've had.

zenno · 22-02-2011 3:44am

dixiefly wrote: »

And what better option do we have?

plenty of other options like "independant"

for the life of me I cannot understand why anyone in their right mind would vote FG or FF' it boggles the mind. that wooden plittering bog-man enda kenny is not going to make our pain any easier thats forsure. comon people pick an independant if your not sure who to vote for. but voting for FG is just nuts.

Einhard · 22-02-2011 3:58am

zenno wrote: »

plenty of other options like "independant"

for the life of me I cannot understand why anyone in their right mind would vote FG or FF' it boggles the mind. that wooden plittering bog-man enda kenny is not going to make our pain any easier thats forsure. comon people pick an independant if your not sure who to vote for. but voting for FG is just nuts.

Voting for an independent means voting for purely local issues over national issues. It means more of the likes of Healy-Rae and Michael Lowry. The Dail is supposed to be about the governance of the country as a whole, not looking after narrow constitutional interests. If the next government has to count on the support on, say, 10 independeents for survival, then those ten will be amongst the most powerful in the country. The tail will wag the dog, and money and energies will be devoted to their constituencies in order to buy their support, when it could better be spent elsewhere. Courting sectional, geographical interests is no way to run a country and, to use your own word, it's nuts to think otherwise.

Hasschu · 22-02-2011 4:57am

The main plank in FG's platform is that it will honour the FF bailout of the banks, developers and foreign megabanks. No wonder he looks uncomfortable he is intent on bankrupting the country and turning its citizens into paupers. The thousand a week leaving the country will double after the election. Children will be malnourished, civil servants and teachers will be on a much diminished dole. It now looks like FG will form a majority gov't. Are we sufffering some kind of mass hallucination, tell me this is not so.

zenno · 22-02-2011 5:43am

Einhard wrote: »

Voting for an independent means voting for purely local issues over national issues. It means more of the likes of Healy-Rae and Michael Lowry. The Dail is supposed to be about the governance of the country as a whole, not looking after narrow constitutional interests. If the next government has to count on the support on, say, 10 independeents for survival, then those ten will be amongst the most powerful in the country. The tail will wag the dog, and money and energies will be devoted to their constituencies in order to buy their support, when it could better be spent elsewhere. Courting sectional, geographical interests is no way to run a country and, to use your own word, it's nuts to think otherwise.

absolute rubbish ^^^

GSF · 22-02-2011 6:41am

dave1982 wrote: »

"Do you have a plan B "?

He would need to be INCREDIBLY STUPID to reveal any plan B on tv in advance of any negotiations. Dont you think the ECB/ IMF would just say no, go implement "plan B" instead if he outlined that there was a plan B?

Maybe he could do it in Irish and we would all take a vow not to translate it, but call me cynical but it might leak and these foreigners are just so damn sneaky.

Einhard · 22-02-2011 7:07am

zenno wrote: »

absolute rubbish ^^^

Wow, with such amazing powers of rebuttal, it's amazing anyone would dare to hold an opinion contrary to yours.

nesf · 22-02-2011 7:10am

zenno wrote: »

plenty of other options like "independant"

for the life of me I cannot understand why anyone in their right mind would vote FG or FF' it boggles the mind.

Because we're centre right and with the fall of the PDs we have no choice but to vote FF or FG? Honestly I'd kill to get a good liberal socially, economically right wing party but we don't have one. What are our other options? Vote Labour and give up our stances on taxation and small Government? Vote SF and have even further incompatibility with the party? Sure you might get lucky and have a Shane Ross running in your constituency but for most of us this isn't the case and well, we're stuck with what we get.

As I said in another thread, voting FG through gritted teeth will probably be me on Friday.

nesf · 22-02-2011 7:19am

On the Plan B thing, the way I see it is this.

We've three possibilities:

a) Renegotiate the deal in some way with the EU/IMF.

b) Fail to do a) and just default on sovereign/bank debt.

c) Accept our burden and work under the EU/IMF deal.

b) isn't really an option, if it was there'd be more than SF/ULA calling for it. c) is unpalatable and exactly what FG don't want to tell us that they'll do as plan B though I strongly suspect it is plan B.

femur61 · 22-02-2011 7:21am

I don't think his lack of personality is a major factor for a lot of people, I think what unerved people is the lack of a plan B.

MaceFace · 22-02-2011 7:26am

GSF wrote: »

He would need to be INCREDIBLY STUPID to reveal any plan B on tv in advance of any negotiations. Dont you think the ECB/ IMF would just say no, go implement "plan B" instead if he outlined that there was a plan B?

Maybe he could do it in Irish and we would all take a vow not to translate it, but call me cynical but it might leak and these foreigners are just so damn sneaky.

I agree that he was asked questions that are in the best interest of the country not to disclose the answers to.
Endas problem is he is unable to explain why he won't answer a question and instead judge fudges the issue.

It was a very very very poor interview in many ways, but while watching it I was thinking what would Martin say. He may have appeared to be responsive to the questions but it would be his usual approach, blaming others and telling Ursula that her questions are just not valid.

After watching the independents I am convinced now of the problem with voting for them - you have no idea what they stand for. I don't think I got one piece of literature through the door from an independent that I read and actually understood what their policies were apart from saving us from the evil IMF/EU.

Catherine Murphy sounded exactly like Jack O Connor. If she was a man she would have a beard.
That Bopp one didn't have a clue what she was talking about.
Healy-Rae - well you can take the man out of Kerry......
Haskins - God love him.

And most of the others just gave the same crap - renage on the deal. Thats all they stand for.

At this stage, there is no one beyond FG. If I can't vote for then, I will spoil my vote.

v4victory · 22-02-2011 8:08am

femur61 wrote: »

I don't think his lack of personality is a major factor for a lot of people, I think what unerved people is the lack of a plan B.

This guy www.vote4pluto.com seems to have a plan B, not sure if it can work but its interesting http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wOTknk9d6qY

Jolly Red Giant · 22-02-2011 9:12am

nesf wrote: »

On the Plan B thing, the way I see it is this.

We've three possibilities:

a) Renegotiate the deal in some way with the EU/IMF.

b) Fail to do a) and just default on sovereign/bank debt.

c) Accept our burden and work under the EU/IMF deal.

b) isn't really an option, if it was there'd be more than SF/ULA calling for it. c) is unpalatable and exactly what FG don't want to tell us that they'll do as plan B though I strongly suspect it is plan B.

Just to be clear about something - the Socialist Party does not and never has argued for default - it has argued that the inevitable consequences of (a) or (c) above is a default with massive consequences for the working class people of this country.

22-02-2011 9:37am

GSF wrote: »

He would need to be INCREDIBLY STUPID to reveal any plan B on tv in advance of any negotiations. Dont you think the ECB/ IMF would just say no, go implement "plan B" instead if he outlined that there was a plan B?

Maybe he could do it in Irish and we would all take a vow not to translate it, but call me cynical but it might leak and these foreigners are just so damn sneaky.

Agreed.
The only thing thats incredulous here are the anti Enda posts based on him not wanting to tell Ursella Cabet Cove Halligan first what angle he's going to take in renegotiations.

Expecting that and giving out about not getting it and Halligan pretending to be offended knowing it was going to be an unanswered question and rightly so is also incredulous.

Killer Pigeon · 22-02-2011 10:08am

VB strikes again. Enda's Obama card has stopped working.

Syferus · 22-02-2011 3:52pm

zenno wrote: »

plenty of other options like "independant"

for the life of me I cannot understand why anyone in their right mind would vote FG or FF' it boggles the mind. that wooden plittering bog-man enda kenny is not going to make our pain any easier thats forsure. comon people pick an independant if your not sure who to vote for. but voting for FG is just nuts.

And yet some wonder why there's a country/city divide. Can't people just leave the oh-so-pithy kindergarden insults at the door?

Tragedy · 22-02-2011 4:20pm

Einhard wrote: »

Bertie was likable.

Everyone loved Cowen when the first became taioseach.

Martin is as smooth and personable and charismatic as they come.

That doesn't mean that having a charismatic leader is a bad thing, even though you and other FG supporters are using childish logic to try say that Enda being uncharismatic and unleaderlike is actually a good thing.

We need a charismatic leader with substance. Enda offers neither of those things.

Kenny is a bit wooden, a bit stiff, and doesn't come across too well in media situations. He has though rebuilt and revitalised a party which some thought doomed after their 2002 GE performance.

I see this time and again, and I've yet to hear a proper accounting of the 'amazing work' he did revitalising FG. If he did such a good job, why did FF only lose 4 seats in in the 2007 election?

He has surrounded himself with an extremely competent frontbench team, and allowed them the leeway to act on their own initiative.

That's great, we're voting for him as Taoiseach though.

He was ridiculed 2 years ago when he announced the abolition of the Seanad- now every party proposes some variation of his theme.

And? Most experts argue that the Seanad needs to be reformed and that regardless, actually abolishing it will be far harder than made out(constitutionally, legally and financially).
The fact that the best you could come up with is that the major parties agree with one of his proposals from two years ago is a bit embarrassing(for him).

His was the only party to come out against benchmarking, even though they knew it would do them no favours electorally.

Ok, but you're trying to defend Enda Kenny, not FG.
Also, didn't they agree to benchmarking under the Mullingar Accord with Labour?

His is the only party that has clearly and consistently stated that the pain of the recession and financial collapse will have to be felt across the board.

I thought Fianna Fail were saying that too?

So, dismiss Kenny because he doesn't have the charisma of the other leaders. Vote on the shallow basis of personality rather than on substance. But don't, having done so, complain in a few years time that we haven't progressed as a nation. You vote for superficial reasons, you get a superficial government.

What substance?
It's not superficial to vote for a leader based on leadership.
Weasel your way through convoluted ridiculous logic all you like, when we vote for a Leader, we should expect one with Leadership.

Enda has none, as you and other supporters admit time and time again.

And none of you have managed to come up with any of his substance either

Are you going to come back and tell me that it doesn't matter if he's a terrible leader, because we're voting for a party?

Heard that one, doesn't wash. If FG were all that, they'd have succeeded in their heave against Enda.

ixtlan · 22-02-2011 4:44pm

I didn't see the interview, but I can imagine how it went.

Enda just does not come across well on TV/media at all. It's unfortunate, but it's the way it is. He doesn't have media charisma, but I suspect he does have personal charisma, otherwise I don't think he would have become leader of FG, rebuilt the party, resisted the coup, become vice-president of the EPP (European People's Party), and then be re-elected as vice-president of the EPP. Somebody must like him behind the scenes.

It would be better if we had someone with personal charisma and media charisma, but you can't always get what you want. I have hope that he will surprise people. If I were asked the Plan B question, I think I would have humorously (but with a hint of tough resolve) explained that one does not divulge strategy before a negotiation.

Some poster quite a few posts ago expressed a comment I agreed with along the lines that it would be nice for Enda and others to be more naturally honest, saying things like "we just don't know", "we'll just do our best", etc etc, but it seems all our politicians are transfixed into scripted waffle. Even the anti-bailout people are transfixed into their own waffle. Witness D. McWilliams who I heard a few days ago saying "waffle waffle waffle... we cannot pay this debt... waffle... we must walk away from the bond holders... waffle there is no middle ground". So would we like him to talk to the EU? A man who negotiating position is "no middle ground".... What if the Germans offered us a 0% 100 year loan... that would be acceptable middle? Point being that there are many solutions to ease the burden on us which do not involve default on bank debt.

In any case, it's already clear that the deal will be re-structured. It not even going to be really a re-negotiation. It will be re-structured because it won't work otherwise, and other countries may need this improved mechanism also. When that deal is agreed, it will be better than now... the number of economists saying it can be handled will increase to the majority... FG (and maybe Labour) will claim it as a massive success... Sinn Fein and the left will say it's a sellout and no improvement at all... and life in Ireland will muddle on...

Ix.

ixtlan · 22-02-2011 4:49pm

Tragedy wrote: »

That doesn't mean that having a charismatic leader is a bad thing, even though you and other FG supporters are using childish logic to try say that Enda being uncharismatic and unleaderlike is actually a good thing.

We need a charismatic leader with substance. Enda offers neither of those things.

Actually all we know for sure is that he doesn't have media/public charisma. As I mentioned in my other post, there's a lot of evidence that he does have a lot of personal charisma, and behind the closed doors of a meeting of 27 heads of state that may be more important.

In some ways if/when Enda becomes Taoiseach it will be something of an anachronism. Possibly the last non-media-charismatic leader of the country. However that's not to say he will be a bad leader...

Ix.

Einhard · 22-02-2011 4:54pm

Tragedy wrote: »

That doesn't mean that having a charismatic leader is a bad thing, even though you and other FG supporters are using childish logic to try say that Enda being uncharismatic and unleaderlike is actually a good thing.

I don't believe charisma is a bad thing. However, it is a bad thing when it is made the sine qua non of leadership.

We need a charismatic leader with substance. Enda offers neither of those things.

Kenny lacks charisma, but I fail to see how he lacks substance.

I see this time and again, and I've yet to hear a proper accounting of the 'amazing work' he did revitalising FG. If he did such a good job, why did FF only lose 4 seats in in the 2007 election?

When I judge the success or otherwise of a party in an election, I tend to do so on the results of that party, rather than that of a completely different party. I don't think that's unreasonable. In 2002, FG won 31 seats, and gained a mere 22% of the vote. Five years later, after Kenny rebuilt the party infrastructure from the ground up, FG gained 20 seats. By any estimate, that's a remarkable transformation for a party whom some were writing off after 2002. If you dispute such a self evident fact, then your bias against Kenny is such that any amount of reasoned argument is unlikely to change your mind.

Incidentally, most political correspondents would be fairly gracious in their account of Kenny's role in revitalising the party.

That's great, we're voting for him as Taoiseach though.

Yes, Taioseach, not President.

And? Most experts argue that the Seanad needs to be reformed and that regardless, actually abolishing it will be far harder than made out(constitutionally, legally and financially).
The fact that the best you could come up with is that the major parties agree with one of his proposals from two years ago is a bit embarrassing(for him).

It's not the best I could come up with. I'm pointing out that for a man who allegedly lacks substance, he has been well ahead of the curve when it comes to policies. He was ridiculed for his stance on the Seanad- now everyone agrees. He was castigated for a brave criticism of benchmarking- now everyone agrees. I don't mind that people have a difference of opinion on the matter, but when people just ignore or dismiss clear evidence, debating them becomes a tad pointless.

Ok, but you're trying to defend Enda Kenny, not FG.
Also, didn't they agree to benchmarking under the Mullingar Accord with Labour?

I'm not stating that Kenny is the best leader of FG, or the country. I was hoping that Bruton would triumph in the leadership contest last year. However, I am defending him against the unsupported, and unfair, contention that he will be a disaster for the country. Purely based on the fact that he has a wooden style of public speaking.

I thought Fianna Fail were saying that too?

They have to say that. After their policies recently, they couldnt say otherwise. However, I was astonished, and gratified, when, during the debate last week, as all the others obfuscated, Kenny answered truthfully to a question regarding future hardships, and stated tha everyone would suffer something. That took balls. To look people in the face and tell them the unpleasant truth takes balls. And, while they are by no means perfect, FG is the only party that has been somewhat consistent in doing so.

What substance?
It's not superficial to vote for a leader based on leadership.
Weasel your way through convoluted ridiculous logic all you like, when we vote for a Leader, we should expect one with Leadership.

Is all logic ridiculous to you? It's ironic that when I respond with substantative arguments to those who claim that Kenny will be a disaster, you call it "convoluted ridiculous logic", and in the same breath you demand substance from Kenny. Seems, in politics as in this dbate, you prefer soundbites over evidenced based analysis. I've mentioned several instances of substance thusfar.

Taking unpopular stands, or positions mocked by the establishment takes substance- even if it can be gratifying when people eventually come t the same conclusions.

Enda has none, as you and other supporters admit time and time again.

I've never claimed that. I wouldn't defend him if I thought he lacked substance.

And none of you have managed to come up with any of his substance either

Hmmm, selective myopia methinks...

Are you going to come back and tell me that it doesn't matter if he's a terrible leader, because we're voting for a party?

Seriously, at this stage, if I have to come back again, I'll bring some sock puppets to explain things. I don't believe Kenny is a terrible leader. I wouldn;t defend him if I did. Where on earth did you take such a thing from my post?

Heard that one, doesn't wash. If FG were all that, they'd have succeeded in their heave against Enda.

Hmmm, this makes me feel you might be a closet FF'er or a partisan of some other party. It's instructive though that, for those who are somewhat hysterical in their reaction to Kenny, the failure of the coup is indicative of the weakness of FG, rather than the strength of Kenny...

Enda Kenny on Vincent Browne tonight

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