Alternative explanations

steddyeddy

How about a thread on here were alternative explanations are provided for certain phenomenon.

To give an example the stories of the yeti tracks in the snow could be explained as known animal tracks melting in the snow.

Haunted houses could be built on areas of naturally high infra sound which is known to produce effects of terror and sometimes hallucinations in humans.

Just to get the ball rolling

MrStuffins

Mediums

They could like money!

steddyeddy

MrStuffins wrote: »

Mediums

They could like money!

well there ya go, it could be as simple as that! I suspect it is.

MrStuffins

The one which is possibly the most well known among skeptics but not among those who like to believe in these things is when a glass on a Ouija Board is moving seemingly on it's own, is it in fact happening due to the Ideomotor Effect

steddyeddy

MrStuffins wrote: »

The one which is possibly the most well known among skeptics but not among those who like to believe in these things is when a glass on a Ouija Board is moving seemingly on it's own, is it in fact happening due to the Ideomotor Effect

Excellent, the effect in itself is interesting enough!

Dave!

Sleep Paralysis can often account for ghost encounters, alien abductions, etc.

Pareidolia often leads people to see ghosts or 'figures' in photographs for example, when really they're just random patterns or shadows that our brain erroneously joins the dots for.

Cold Reading is a technique employed by psychics and mediums to give the impression that they're communicating with the dead. They also sometimes use hot reading, if they're particularly conniving.

The Forer effect gives people the impression that a horoscope/astrological reading can accurately describe their lives or predict their futures.

Confirmation bias fits into almost all paranormal phenomena to some degree. People have a tendency to forget about or omit information that contradicts their beliefs, and emphasise data that supports them.

Statistical clustering can sometimes give the impression that some random occurance or coincidence is impossible or magical.

And lastly, and this will also go in a 'logical fallacies' thread that I'll start when I get a chance, post hoc ergo propter hoc is a fallacy that people often fall for, making them attribute an outcome to an event that occured before it, despite having no evidence that one caused the other. For example, a child developing (or displaying) signs of autism shortly after receiving the MMR vaccine.

GodlessM

Dave! wrote: »

Confirmation bias fits into almost all paranormal phenomena to some degree. People have a tendency to forget about or omit information that contradicts their beliefs, and emphasise data that supports them.

Whereas what you have said is true, to be fair it must also be pointed out that confirmation bias exists on both sides of the camp; many scientists etc. have chosen to ignore certain facts at times when they just can't explain something.

steddyeddy

GodlessM wrote: »

Whereas what you have said is true, to be fair it must also be pointed out that confirmation bias exists on both sides of the camp; many scientists etc. have chosen to ignore certain facts at times when they just can't explain something.

I agree completly many scietists have been dogmatic

s3129

Where some times there is an explanation, I've seen some pretty funky things and I definately believe there is only one reason for it, it being ghosts or something paranormal.

Im going to bed now before I scare myself.

Zombrex

GodlessM wrote: »

Whereas what you have said is true, to be fair it must also be pointed out that confirmation bias exists on both sides of the camp; many scientists etc. have chosen to ignore certain facts at times when they just can't explain something.

The scientific method attempts to compensate for human confirmation bias. Of course that won't stop a scientist falling foul of confirmation bias, but they won't get very far.

Dave!

Dave! wrote: »

Sleep Paralysis can often account for ghost encounters, alien abductions, etc.

Problem is with this is , science cannot explain the old hag / alien / dark figure or why so many people have the same dream.

There are theory's but no proof that these are correct .

So really it cannot be classed as an explanation

Dave!

Course it can, those things are all common in human folklore, and so are common figures of fear and terror in various cultures. The fact that they are so prevalent in so-called paranormal experiences could just as easily be an argument in favour of a psychocultural interpretation.

By your rationale the bogey man must exist, since so many kids claim he's hiding in their closet.

Dave!

Dave! wrote: »

Course it can, those things are all common in human folklore, and so are common figures of fear and terror in various cultures.

So its a theory ?

kylith

Deleted User wrote: »

So its a theory ?

And your claim that it's a hag/aliens/goblins is documented fact, is it? Based on more than the observations of people who were asleep, I mean.

There are various things which are culturally embedded in our subconcious and which may surface during sleep paralysis. In past times it was goblins, these days it's more likely to be aliens. Millions of people dream of the same thing; being naked in school, having their teeth fall out, many people I've talked to have dreamt of being in an huge shopping centre (I know this because I used to have recurring dreams about it so started asking everyone I knew). This does not mean that these things actually happened, it means that certain things permeate our culture and come out when we're asleep.

kylith

kylith wrote: »

There are various things which are culturally embedded in our subconcious and which may surface during sleep paralysis.

No , i have not seen any proof of aliens or ghosts or goblins .

Can you prove that the things people are seeing are culturally embedded in our subconscious ?

Or is this a theory ?

edwinkane

Deleted User wrote: »

No , i have not seen any proof of aliens or ghosts or goblins .

Can you prove that the things people are seeing are culturally embedded in our subconscious ?

Or is this a theory ?

How does anyone prove something is "culturally embedded in our subconscious" ? Are you able to make an actual argument, or do you prefer to just ask questions and avoid discussion?

edwinkane

edwinkane wrote: »

How does anyone prove something is "culturally embedded in our subconscious" ? Are you able to make an actual argument, or do you prefer to just ask questions and avoid discussion?

So you cannot prove it there for it does not exist ? ?

edwinkane

Deleted User wrote: »

So you cannot prove it there for it does not exist ? ?

That seems to suggest you prefer to ask questions and avoid making an argument and avoid discussion.

edwinkane

edwinkane wrote: »

That seems to suggest you prefer to ask questions and avoid making an argument and avoid discussion.

Whats wrong with asking questions ?

edwinkane

Deleted User wrote: »

Whats wrong with asking questions ?

Whats wrong with asking questions as a method of discussion? Its a matter of proportion. If your only method of discussion is to ask questions, and make no arguments, then there is nothing "wrong" with it, per se. It doesn't make for a very good discussion if all the participants just keep asking questions, as you seem to.

edwinkane

edwinkane wrote: »

Whats wrong with asking questions as a method of discussion? Its a matter of proportion. If your only method of discussion is to ask questions, and make no arguments, then there is nothing "wrong" with it, per se. It doesn't make for a very good discussion if all the participants just keep asking questions, as you seem to.

So anyway back to what you were saying .

You have a theory , and this theory is a suitable explanation to explain something else.

pH

MrStuffins wrote: »

The one which is possibly the most well known among skeptics but not among those who like to believe in these things is when a glass on a Ouija Board is moving seemingly on it's own, is it in fact happening due to the Ideomotor Effect

I've seen good examples of the ideomotor effect, like dowsing where a tiny unconscious movement causes a large movement, because the device is stressed or balanced precariously.

However there's a good reason why dowsers use such devices (as opposed to something like a large plank) because the ideomotor effect is small and subconscious.

However, pushing a glass (plus the mass of the other peoples hands) many inches across a board is not a small movement at all, this is further complicated by the fact that the answer needs to be "figured out" and spelt.

I fail to see why the ideomotor effect needs to be called on here, why not the much more mundane "Someone is pushing the glass around".

I do genuinely believe that the ideomotor effect can fool a dowser, but if the idoemotor effect was causing pointers on ouija boards to move it would work with one person (even better - less mass) However ouija boards are mainly a phenomenon involving groups and there are all kinds of reasons why one member of any group would start consciously moving the pointer around.

edwinkane

pH wrote: »

I've seen good examples of the ideomotor effect, like dowsing where a tiny unconscious movement causes a large movement, because the device is stressed or balanced precariously.

However there's a good reason why dowsers use such devices (as opposed to something like a large plank) because the ideomotor effect is small and subconscious.

However, pushing a glass (plus the mass of the other peoples hands) many inches across a board is not a small movement at all, this is further complicated by the fact that the answer needs to be "figured out" and spelt.

I fail to see why the ideomotor effect needs to be called on here, why not the much more mundane "Someone is pushing the glass around".

I do genuinely believe that the ideomotor effect can fool a dowser, but if the idoemotor effect was causing pointers on ouija boards to move it would work with one person (even better - less mass) However ouija boards are mainly a phenomenon involving groups and there are all kinds of reasons why one member of any group would start consciously moving the pointer around.

Ah yes, "pushing a glass around a board". What nonsense is that, pretending that a spirit is guiding your hand as you pusha glass around a board. its such obvious tosh.

I am convinced that some self proclaimed psychics are deluded, while others are charlatans. Either way, neither the deluded or the charlatans have ever been able to demonstrate paranormal activity in any way accurately and consistently.

steddyeddy

edwinkane wrote: »

Ah yes, "pushing a glass around a board". What nonsense is that, pretending that a spirit is guiding your hand as you pusha glass around a board. its such obvious tosh.

I am convinced that some self proclaimed psychics are deluded, while others are charlatans. Either way, neither the deluded or the charlatans have ever been able to demonstrate paranormal activity in any way accurately and consistently.

The original oujia boards werent used to contact the dead but were marketed as a way to contact loved ones fighting abroad in a war or away at sea.

MrStuffins

steddyeddy wrote: »

The original oujia boards werent used to contact the dead but were marketed as a way to contact loved ones fighting abroad in a war or away at sea.

Not necessarily true.

By the time they were marketed in such a way, they had already existed for over 20 years as a board game.

In fact, the Ouija Board trademark is owned by Parker Brothers

meryem

Dave! wrote: »

Sleep Paralysis can often account for ghost encounters, alien abductions, etc.

Pareidolia often leads people to see ghosts or 'figures' in photographs for example, when really they're just random patterns or shadows that our brain erroneously joins the dots for.

Cold Reading is a technique employed by psychics and mediums to give the impression that they're communicating with the dead. They also sometimes use hot reading, if they're particularly conniving.

The Forer effect gives people the impression that a horoscope/astrological reading can accurately describe their lives or predict their futures.

Confirmation bias fits into almost all paranormal phenomena to some degree. People have a tendency to forget about or omit information that contradicts their beliefs, and emphasise data that supports them.

Statistical clustering can sometimes give the impression that some random occurance or coincidence is impossible or magical.

And lastly, and this will also go in a 'logical fallacies' thread that I'll start when I get a chance, post hoc ergo propter hoc is a fallacy that people often fall for, making them attribute an outcome to an event that occured before it, despite having no evidence that one caused the other. For example, a child developing (or displaying) signs of autism shortly after receiving the MMR vaccine.

I agree with the above sayings, but will like to argue that there is very thin line between what is scientific effect and paranormal activity. A true medium or person who see and judge paranormal activities will always identify between the similar looking things whether it is just natural or out of some bad energy effect and will also resolve the issue accordingly without misleading the public. The question always remain before us is that how the gullible can identify good and bad people.

easychair

meryem wrote: »

I agree with the above sayings, but will like to argue that there is very thin line between what is scientific effect and paranormal activity. A true medium or person who see and judge paranormal activities will always identify between the similar looking things whether it is just natural or out of some bad energy effect and will also resolve the issue accordingly without misleading the public. The question always remain before us is that how the gullible can identify good and bad people.

Obviously the gulliable can't, by definition, identity the good and bad people. If they could, they wouldn't be gulliable.

The more important question is how any of those who claim to me a medium, whether good or bad, can actually demonstrate they can accurately get things right.

For my money, they are all bad insofar as not one, in the history of the world, has ever been able to demonstrate beyond anecdote they have any powers in addition to guesswork and trickery.

maccored

i have to laugh how people who have any belief or interest in the paranormal get classed as 'gullible'.

Penn

maccored wrote: »

i have to laugh how people who have any belief or interest in the paranormal get classed as 'gullible'.

I just laugh at people who have any belief or interest in the paranormal.

Oryx

Barrington wrote: »

I just laugh at people who have any belief or interest in the paranormal.

Then respectfully, I would say that the paranormal forum is not the place for you. As per the charter, the skeptics forum is not to be used to mock posters in the main forum.

meryem

easychair wrote: »

Obviously the gulliable can't, by definition, identity the good and bad people. If they could, they wouldn't be gulliable.

The more important question is how any of those who claim to me a medium, whether good or bad, can actually demonstrate they can accurately get things right.

For my money, they are all bad insofar as not one, in the history of the world, has ever been able to demonstrate beyond anecdote they have any powers in addition to guesswork and trickery.

To meet the genuine ones first of all you need to have some belief that paranormal things do exist. Thereafter need to find some real psychic medium from the big mountain by going through natural qualities of a accurate psychic reader. I feel bad, for you could not find the perfect one who set all your doubts aside about the professionals until now to pay some money to or just some deserving respect.

Anyway to make discussion shorter than longer here; for getting into the realm of this debate(whether paranormal world exist or not) the scientific community should try getting more deeper into unsolved paranormal mysteries with open and honest mind to except the outcomes.

kylith

meryem wrote: »

To meet the genuine ones first of all you need to have some belief that paranormal things do exist. Thereafter need to find some real psychic medium from the big mountain by going through natural qualities of a accurate psychic reader. I feel bad, for you could not find the perfect one who set all your doubts aside about the professionals until now to pay some money to or just some deserving respect.

Anyway to make discussion shorter than longer here; for getting into the realm of this debate(whether paranormal world exist or not) the scientific community should try getting more deeper into unsolved paranormal mysteries with open and honest mind to except the outcomes.

What utter nonsense. Things that exist dont' need you to believe in them. I don't have to believe in headache-imps for paracetemol to work, and I don't have to believe in tables because they are demonstratably real. Belief is for things that aren't real.

Simlarly, if paranormal activity like ghosts or psychic abilities are real then belief isn't necessary because proof should be obtainable.

MrStuffins

meryem wrote: »

To meet the genuine ones first of all you need to have some belief that paranormal things do exist.

Ridiculous!

meryem

kylith wrote: »

What utter nonsense. Things that exist dont' need you to believe in them. I don't have to believe in headache-imps for paracetemol to work, and I don't have to believe in tables because they are demonstratably real. Belief is for things that aren't real.

Simlarly, if paranormal activity like ghosts or psychic abilities are real then belief isn't necessary because proof should be obtainable.

Believing is not a primary requirement to test the existence of such things. It was just a suggestive in some cases(for these things are not that static neither easy to catch). But the thing is I guess we are arriving at conclusions without letting unsolved mysteries by science to be solved.

MrStuffins wrote: »

Ridiculous!

There is nothing ridiculous over there. You need to answer unsolved mysteries by science first to say that.

jonbravo

kylith wrote: »

What utter nonsense. Things that exist dont' need you to believe in them. I don't have to believe in headache-imps for paracetemol to work, and I don't have to believe in tables because they are demonstratably real. Belief is for things that aren't real.

Simlarly, if paranormal activity like ghosts or psychic abilities are real then belief isn't necessary because proof should be obtainable.

SIMLARLY; if you have no belief in anything, what good is the proof to someone who can't believe!?

Everything is obtainable.. its just a matter of when and how.. you have to have hope or why do it in the first place??

easychair

meryem wrote: »

To meet the genuine ones first of all you need to have some belief that paranormal things do exist. Thereafter need to find some real psychic medium from the big mountain by going through natural qualities of a accurate psychic reader. I feel bad, for you could not find the perfect one who set all your doubts aside about the professionals until now to pay some money to or just some deserving respect.

Anyway to make discussion shorter than longer here; for getting into the realm of this debate(whether paranormal world exist or not) the scientific community should try getting more deeper into unsolved paranormal mysteries with open and honest mind to except the outcomes.

It's heartening that you are concerned with what the scientific community should be doing. I have a suggestion of my own, which is that, before the scientific community goes off to do as you suggest, the paranormal community puts up one member, perhaps even the real psychic medium from the big mountain which you mention, as the best example, in the estimation of the paranormal community, of someone who has psychic abilities. Then the scientific community can work with this person, and others from the psychic community, and run some agreed tests to test the peychic abilities, to see how accurate the best person is from the psychic community.

Now, I'm not a betting man, but I would take a bet that the psychic community will find all sorts of reasons why this is not possible, why it wouldn't work and so on, as my bet is they don't actually want to put their claims to the test. What do you think, do you think they would agree to this?

kylith

jonbravo wrote: »

SIMLARLY; if you have no belief in anything, what good is the proof to someone who can't believe!?

If you show me the proof I won't need to believe; I will know and I will understand. Belief is for things for which there is no proof.

meryem

easychair wrote: »

It's heartening that you are concerned with what the scientific community should be doing. I have a suggestion of my own, which is that, before the scientific community goes off to do as you suggest, the paranormal community puts up one member, perhaps even the real psychic medium from the big mountain which you mention, as the best example, in the estimation of the paranormal community, of someone who has psychic abilities. Then the scientific community can work with this person, and others from the psychic community, and run some agreed tests to test the psychic abilities, to see how accurate the best person is from the psychic community.

I agree to do that we should have some test like that.

Now, I'm not a betting man, but I would take a bet that the psychic community will find all sorts of reasons why this is not possible, why it wouldn't work and so on, as my bet is they don't actually want to put their claims to the test. What do you think, do you think they would agree to this?

They should, otherwise simply accept their non existence...

Standman

meryem wrote: »

To meet the genuine ones first of all you need to have some belief that paranormal things do exist. Thereafter need to find some real psychic medium from the big mountain by going through natural qualities of a accurate psychic reader. I feel bad, for you could not find the perfect one who set all your doubts aside about the professionals until now to pay some money to or just some deserving respect.

Anyway to make discussion shorter than longer here; for getting into the realm of this debate(whether paranormal world exist or not) the scientific community should try getting more deeper into unsolved paranormal mysteries with open and honest mind to except the outcomes.

Could you give examples of which unsolved paranormal mysteries you would like the scientific communitry to delve more deeply into?

jonbravo

kylith wrote: »

If you show me the proof I won't need to believe; I will know and I will understand. Belief is for things for which there is no proof.

Thats my point,..'you will need to believe someday that your views are wrong'.
ok... lets say i've given you the proof that Mr yeti visits ireland,...what will you understand, what will you know!?
What do you believe will happen in the world once the yeti turns out to be true!? with not involving the paranormal/skeptic digs the subject of yeti gets:D!

jonbravo

Standman wrote: »

Could you give examples of which unsolved paranormal mysteries you would like the scientific communitry to delve more deeply into?

how about re-think the lot!!.......or are they to far down there wormholes!?:D

meryem

Like Where Is The Soul? or does it exist even or not. Hey BTW does anyone non believer here believe there is no soul as well and It's just our flawed thought like many others.

Dave!

meryem wrote: »

Like Where Is The Soul? or does it exist even or not. Hey BTW does anyone non believer here believe there is no soul as well and It's just our flawed thought like many others.

Yes

MrStuffins

Dave! wrote: »

Yes

+1

meryem

kylith

meryem wrote: »

Like Where Is The Soul? or does it exist even or not. Hey BTW does anyone non believer here believe there is no soul as well and It's just our flawed thought like many others.

Yes.

jonbravo wrote: »

Thats my point,..'you will need to believe someday that your views are wrong'.
ok... lets say i've given you the proof that Mr yeti visits ireland,...what will you understand, what will you know!?
What do you believe will happen in the world once the yeti turns out to be true!?

Why do I need to believe that my views are wrong? When has anyone, ever, said "I think X, but I believe that I'm wrong" ?

If you take me somewhere and show me a yeti I will know that yetis exist and I will understand that there is a large species of ape roaming Nepal, or wherever. I don't know what would happen if real live yetis were found, but I'd imagine it'd be along the lines of a lot of people saying "How about that, a newly discovered species of ape. Let's study it so we can learn more about it".

with not involving the paranormal/skeptic digs the subject of yeti gets:D!

I'm sorry, what? I really don't understand what your trying to say?

Standman

meryem wrote: »

Like Where Is The Soul? or does it exist even or not. Hey BTW does anyone non believer here believe there is no soul as well and It's just our flawed thought like many others.

There's not much point in looking for something that there is no physical evidence for. Scienctific communities do not really get involved in the investigation of anything that some people wish existed, especially if there is no precedence for them in the any of the scientific fields of study. How are we supposed to locate a soul when its existence is merely presumed and has never been tested or proven?

jonbravo

kylith wrote: »

Yes.

Why do I need to believe that my views are wrong? When has anyone, ever, said "I think X, but I believe that I'm wrong" ?

If you take me somewhere and show me a yeti I will know that yetis exist and I will understand that there is a large species of ape roaming Nepal, or wherever. I don't know what would happen if real live yetis were found, but I'd imagine it'd be along the lines of a lot of people saying "How about that, a newly discovered species of ape. Let's study it so we can learn more about it".


I'm sorry, what? I really don't understand what your trying to say?

No one has ever said "i think x,but i believe y !? really....!!??

When i take you somewhere and you see whatever it is, you will Know and Understand that there is another species of ape in the world before any type of study can be done!? Also you won't imagine anything,you'd had seen the proof yourself it was real... for you to imagine then your making things up in your head lad, you would believe in something to be true or false just like what happens in the ufo field with every clip on youtube...you'd get asked for the proof that you've seen, but who will believe you!??..proof that you can hold or not??.... nor would it be a newly discovered species..

skeptics don't look for answers just ways to believe in something in my view.

easychair

jonbravo wrote: »

skeptics don't look for answers just ways to believe in something in my view.

A credulous person will believe something without proper proof.

A sceptic does not believe something without proper proof.

A Cynic will not believe something even when shown proper proof.

Which is the only intelligent position to take?

pH

easychair wrote: »

A credulous person will believe something without proper proof.

A sceptic does not believe something without proper proof.

A Cynic will not believe something even when shown proper proof.

I'm not sure what gave you that idea.

Cynicism
Cynicism is a distrust of other's apparent motives. It is a form of jaded negativity, and other times realistic criticism or skepticism.

Cynicism has nothing to do with proofs, it's all about distrusting other people's motives, and expecting the worst in others so to speak.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cynicism_(contemporary)

steddyeddy

pH wrote: »

I'm not sure what gave you that idea.

Cynicism
Cynicism is a distrust of other's apparent motives. It is a form of jaded negativity, and other times realistic criticism or skepticism.

Cynicism has nothing to do with proofs, it's all about distrusting other people's motives, and expecting the worst in others so to speak.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cynicism_(contemporary)

Well it has been used as easy described for example there are some self described cynics who dont believe in the giant squid despite its discovery.