3 day v 5 day split

Hello everybody

I would like to know the difference between using a 3 day split for weight training and having a 5 day split.

At the moment I use a 3 day split and train 2 areas each day with cardio and core training for each day. Overall the total workout takes me around 90mins.

However speaking to people briefly whilst at the gym I have noticed many train only one body part per day.

My overall objective is to get lean and be in proportion to my height I'm 5ft 7". I dont want to be extreme such as George St Pierre but still want to look good with my shirt off lol.

Below is what I do on each day

My weight training always consists of 3 sets performing reps starting at 12 and lowering to 8 but increasing the weight. Or doing them in a combination 10,12,8.

Day 1: Chest and Triceps
Bench press
Incline bench press
Cable cross overs
Incline fly
Tricep Pull Downs
Close Grip Press
Kick backs

Day 2: Back and Biceps
Seated Row
Dumb Bell Row
Lateral Pull Down
Weighted Hyperextensions for lower back
Hammer curl
Concentrated bicep curl
Seated dumb bell curl

Day 3: Legs and Shoulders
Squats on a machine
Calf Raise
Leg Raise
Hamstring Curl
Upright Row
Reverse Fly
Shoulder press
Lateral Raise

I am thinking of changing the Squat on a machine to a Proper squat with a Bar, the Shoulder press to the Arnold Press and the Lat Pull Down to Pull Up's. I do cardio and core work after completing my weight work. What do you think??

Kind regards

Khuz

Brian?

I think you should scrap the entire thing and do 3 full body sessions a week.

You also should learn to squat and deadlift.

Thank you for the advice, I know how to do both and I have been considering incorporating them into my workout.

When you say full body workout what would that involve??

I do core work and cardio work on each the days I train and I go for a 15 minute run on my off days.

What I am looking for really is to drop my waist size down to a 32" I am currently a 34". I would also like to increase my chest size to 40" from my existing 38" although I'm not as concerned about my chest size as my waist.

I know the use of clothing measurements is rather crude but it does illustrate what I want my physical shape to be obviously at the same time I want to look lean so when I'm drunk and take my shirt off to the sound of baywatch in a club, women look at me in lust lol

Thanks Khuz

Brian?

What your doing now is basically a body building split, they only became popular when the chemical assistance kicked in. Someone is about to take exception to that, but it's true.

A full body workout is exactly what it says on the tin. Depending on your current strength levels there are a few out there.

This is a good beginners one:

http://startingstrength.wikia.com/wiki/Starting_Strength_Wiki

Bill Starrs beginners routine is good as well.

What do you currently deadlift and squat.

grimloch

briankeating wrote: »

What your doing now is basically a body building split, they only became popular when the chemical assistance kicked in. Someone is about to take exception to that, but it's true.

A full body workout is exactly what it says on the tin. Depending on your current strength levels there are a few out there.

This is a good beginners one:

http://startingstrength.wikia.com/wiki/Starting_Strength_Wiki

Bill Starrs beginners routine is good as well.

What do you currently deadlift and squat.

This is the quintessential "completely disregard the OP's goals and recommend starting strength" response typical of this forum.

Haha I think I will have to take exception Brian because I have been using this existing program for some time now without any chemical assistance. However I when I began I re-examined my techniques for every exercise to ensure perfection which meant going down weights.

In that time I also had not been as determined and dedicated as I have been in the last couple of weeks since that time I have seen some positive changes.

I can currently squat about 70kg this includes the weight of the bar. I have not tried to deadlift for a long time so I cant be sure.

Also Grimloch, I think it is a bit harsh to say Brian has disregarded my objectives because total body workouts from my understanding which is based on the crossfit program would actually assist in my objectives because they do lead to fat loss and getting lean. I do appreciate where you are coming from and I thank for coming to my defence it is very kind of you.

Thanks

Khuz

Brian?

grimloch wrote: »

This is the quintessential "completely disregard the OP's goals and recommend starting strength" response typical of this forum.

Nonsense. The OP asked fo opinions on his program and any changes he could make. I gave my opinion, give your or don't bother posting. You're adding nothin constructive with this response.

Brian?

Khuz, I'm not saying you need drugs to get something out of that program, just that it not optimal for a natural trainee to use a split like that.

If your goal is to gain lean mass, strength training is your biggest friend. A workout based on big compound movements instead of isolation work. Keep the cardio up on your days off and it's all you need. For someone squatting 70kg, SS or Bill Starrs beginner program are ideal. The are not based on crossfit though, Starr and Rippetoe have been coaching since way before crossfit was invented.

King of Kings

Your routine is not the worst but I think you're doing too much exercises.
Is there a need for all those arm routines - probably not. My arms are a decent size and I'd do curls and direct tricep work (or some sort) once a week - 3 sets each.

I'd lose the squat on the machine prompto - squating with a olym bar is the king of exercises
I'd recommend westside 4 skinny bastards - search defrancotraining.com for "westside".

I'm doing westside 1 - which is a 3 day routine cos i've 3 other sessions for martial arts.

Later westsides are 4 day routines. Westside 1 fits my schedule.

It's a 3 day routine split into 2 upper and 1 lower - it offers (imo) more varity and choice than starting strength but starting strength is fine.
I think westside help drop the waist size and at the same time increase your chest.

Last year i did another defranco 12 weeks program called "built like a badass" and I really enjoyed it and found a lot of benefits.

I don't agree you need squating and deadlift - 1 of them a week is sufficent.
- both of them are fine and great just not the bibical necessity that other posters here believe them to be.

Thanks for the input King of Kings (Although not sure Triple H would thank you for stealing his moniker lol ). I will incorporate the olympic bar squat which I actually did today, I do agree it is a great exercise.

I will look into the program you recommended, I particularly like the name 'Built Like a Badass'.

Lantus

I would say that your workout is 'ok' but could be much more effective and ideally be much less time. 90minutes is a long time. For muscle growth you want to avoid becoming catabolic. My rule of thumb is to never go over 1 hour(and ideally be much less than that.)

A 5 day split would allow you to work each muscle group more intensely. Say: -

shoulders,triceps, abs
back and calfs
rest
chest biceps abs
quads hams
rest
shoulders triceps abs


and repeat.....with the next muscle group.

Do 3 exercises per muscle group (2 for abs.) change the exercises every 6-8 weeks to stimulate change. Make sure you are working as close to failure as you can. Rest for 60 to 90 seconds between sets only. Should take 30 to 40mims to do each session which is much more sustainable long term and allows you more rest and more muscle growth.

Make sure you take on protein within 10mins of finishing a routine and food within an hour if at all possible.

OMCCABE

Be sure to have a qualified trainer look at your squat technique before deciding to make it a staple OP. Just because it is a great exercise doesn't make it a great exercise for you. I rarely come across a client who can correctly squat at first.

Also your exercise selection is a bit all over the place however given what I assume is a low training age, most mass based programs will work for you so don't get hung up on it. Instead work on your nutrition and getting in sufficent quality calories.

Oisin

King of Kings

Deleted User wrote: »

Thanks for the input King of Kings (Although not sure Triple H would thank you for stealing his moniker lol ). I will incorporate the olympic bar squat which I actually did today, I do agree it is a great exercise.

I will look into the program you recommended, I particularly like the name 'Built Like a Badass'.

Triple H stole it off me but I'll admit I stole it off god.

Incidentially Triple H now trains under defranco.

Hanley

OMCCABE wrote: »

Also your exercise selection is a bit all over the place however given [....] a low training age, most mass based programs will work for you so don't get hung up on it. Instead work on your nutrition and getting in sufficent quality calories.

I REALLY wish more people realised this. Especially the newbies who've done their first couple of months of training ever and seen really good results off doing some clusterf*ck cycle and then go recommending it to everyone.

When you say my selection is a bit all over the place. What exactly do you mean because from my point of view its relatively targeted to specific areas on specific days.

How is it so haphazard??

OMCCABE

I'll just point out a few things for you so.


On chest day, unless your remarkable chest dominant, your shoulders/triceps should already be fairly fried from bench and incline if you are using sufficent weight so the addition of the CG bench seems like overkill to me, much like the kickbacks. Something like a Frenchpress and tricep pressdowns finisher would be more than adequate.

Leg day seems to lack sufficent quad work. Consider introducing split squats, back leg elevated split squats, front foot elevated split squats, lunges, reverse lunges, walking lunges, hack squats.


Basically you need to be a bit more efficent in your choice of exercises. How specific are we talking in terms of these "areas". If your squatting 70kg then I doubt you need to worry about bringing out the lateral portion of your tricep or the sweep in your quads.


Hope this helps

Oisin

OMCCABE

Hanley wrote: »

I REALLY wish more people realised this. Especially the newbies who've done their first couple of months of training ever and seen really good results off doing some clusterf*ck cycle and then go recommending it to everyone.

This is how a lot of the Personal training studios out there are now making their money. Apart from just marketing outright lies. They simply grab a novice and place them on some "ADVANCED" triple set or 10x3 program and low and behold they make gains.


At the same time as a result of novice lifters making progress on fullbody programs 3-4 times per week, people begin to believe that it is a superior form of training. I deadlifted one max set tonight for 6 reps and the idea of doing that or any deadlift derivitive for the next 3 days is laughable to me.

End Rant/

Brian?

Hanley wrote: »

I REALLY wish more people realised this. Especially the newbies who've done their first couple of months of training ever and seen really good results off doing some clusterf*ck cycle and then go recommending it to everyone.

Are you refering to SS as a "clusterf*ck" then?

What about Bill Starrs beginner 5x5?

I'd be genuinely interested in knowing what you would reccomend to a novice, but as far as I'm concerned either of the 2 above would be better than some randomly selected high volume routine like the OP posted. If I'm wrong, why?

Brian?

OMCCABE wrote: »

At the same time as a result of novice lifters making progress on fullbody programs 3-4 times per week, people begin to believe that it is a superior form of training. I deadlifted one max set tonight for 6 reps and the idea of doing that or any deadlift derivitive for the next 3 days is laughable to me.

End Rant/

Surely that's where training age comes into it. A complete novice can squat 3 times a week and recover, although novice programs like Bill Starr 5x5 are designed so the trainee is not maxing out every session.

http://startingstrength.wikia.com/wiki/Bill_Starr_5x5

Heavy day, Light day, Medium day.

What program would you suggest? There is a lot of critiscism going one without offering alternatives, which is a bit uncontructive. Explain why I'm worng and I would be happy to listen.

Hanley

OMCCABE wrote: »

This is how a lot of the Personal training studios out there are now making their money. Apart from just marketing outright lies. They simply grab a novice and place them on some "ADVANCED" triple set or 10x3 program and low and behold they make gains.

Agree

At the same time as a result of novice lifters making progress on fullbody programs 3-4 times per week, people begin to believe that it is a superior form of training. I deadlifted one max set tonight for 6 reps and the idea of doing that or any deadlift derivitive for the next 3 days is laughable to me.

End Rant/

Disagree.

Obviously if you hit an all out set of 6 you'll be in no state to go at it again. But if you pulled multiple doubles and triple at around 75-80%, you'd be fine. I honestly think a newbie pulling multiple times per week at those percentages would see the same, if not better results than pulling a single all out heavy set of 5-6 once per week.

So.... training the same movement multiple times per week is one of those "it depends" things. Can you? Sure... but it depends on loading. Hell, you can do it as an advanced guy and make savage progress too. If you're smart about it.

briankeating wrote: »

Are you refering to SS as a "clusterf*ck" then?

I was referring to what a lot of people here are planning to do/have done when they first start training. Do I include starting strength? Yup.

What about Bill Starrs beginner 5x5?

Don't know it, so can't comment.

I'd be genuinely interested in knowing what you would reccomend to a novice,

There was a thread a while ago called "the perfect program" or something like that. You'll see what I'd use as a starting point in it. Basically, it'd have some mobility work, a big core lift, and some assistance stuff each day.

but as far as I'm concerned either of the 2 above would be better than some randomly selected high volume routine like the OP posted.

Yup, but slap on the cheek would be better than a punch in the face or a kick in the nuts too right? I wouldn't want any of those tho. Just because X is better than Y, doesn't mean Y is good.

If I'm wrong, why?

You're wrong because it's a blanket recommendation which pays no heed to the OPs history. How's there mobility, can they do a full squat? How is their scapular function? Will they be able to bench without f*cking up their shoulders?

If there's problems with any of that, starting strength, or any of those generic problems will exasperate the issue.

Brian?

Hanley wrote: »

There was a thread a while ago called "the perfect program" or something like that. You'll see what I'd use as a starting point in it. Basically, it'd have some mobility work, a big core lift, and some assistance stuff each day.

Never saw that.

Hanley wrote: »

Yup, but slap on the cheek would be better than a punch in the face or a kick in the nuts too right? I wouldn't want any of those tho. Just because X is better than Y, doesn't mean Y is good.

Fair enough.

Hanley wrote: »

You're wrong because it's a blanket recommendation which pays no heed to the OPs history. How's there mobility, can they do a full squat? How is their scapular function? Will they be able to bench without f*cking up their shoulders?

If there's problems with any of that, starting strength, or any of those generic problems will exasperate the issue.

You're dead right.

So what would your reccomendation be to the OP? Go get a coach/trainer who knows what they're doing?

OMCCABE

briankeating wrote: »

Surely that's where training age comes into it. A complete novice can squat 3 times a week and recover, although novice programs like Bill Starr 5x5 are designed so the trainee is not maxing out every session.

http://startingstrength.wikia.com/wiki/Bill_Starr_5x5

Heavy day, Light day, Medium day.

What program would you suggest? There is a lot of critiscism going one without offering alternatives, which is a bit uncontructive. Explain why I'm worng and I would be happy to listen.

Oh don't get me wrong. I have no problem with the concept of starting strength and am all for cycling heavy/light or max effort/speed/Repitition days etc. I'm actually refering to the fact that a novice lifters apparent success on a fullbody program such as

"Bench 4x10
Lat Pulldown 4x10
Leg Press 3 x 15... Bis Tris etc etc "

results in these programs being fed to those of an intermediate training age under the pretence of being an "effective program for all levels".



I would not however advise anyone over an internet forum, ESPECIALLY with a low training age to incorporate squats or deads or cleans in their training as I don't know what type of form they have.

Trust me I see hundreds of squats a day and they are very very rarely of sound technique. This is why many people leave their trainers more injured and messed up than before they started.

So yeah..not criticising and I believe I made more than enough constructive suggestions in my response to the OP.


Oisin

Brian?

OMCCABE wrote: »

Oh don't get me wrong. I have no problem with the concept of starting strength and am all for cycling heavy/light or max effort/speed/Repitition days etc. I'm actually refering to the fact that a novice lifters apparent success on a fullbody program such as

"Bench 4x10
Lat Pulldown 4x10
Leg Press 3 x 15... Bis Tris etc etc "

results in these programs being fed to those of an intermediate training age under the pretence of being an "effective program for all levels".

I think the OP's program falls directly into that category though, that's why I suggested he bin it.

OMCCABE wrote: »

I would not however advise anyone over an internet forum, ESPECIALLY with a low training age to incorporate squats or deads or cleans in their training as I don't know what type of form they have.

Trust me I see hundreds of squats a day and they are very very rarely of sound technique. This is why many people leave their trainers more injured and messed up than before they started.

So yeah..not criticising and I believe I made more than enough constructive suggestions in my response to the OP.


Oisin

Fair enough, good point. Sorry if I came over too strong, I think I picked you up wrong.

OMCCABE

Hanley :

I agree that those percentages may indeed be ok for multiple sessions especially given the poor neural development of a novice.

I will step in and say to the OP again (think I mentioned it in first post) to get his form checked by a qualified trainer/PT/strength coach. Note : if the individual you ask does not mention anything about upperbody tightness during the squat then you can disregard their opinion straight away and move on to the next one.


Oisin

OMCCABE

briankeating wrote: »

Fair enough, good point. Sorry if I came over too strong, I think I picked you up wrong.

No bother at all mate

Ok so there has been a fair bit of commentary there. In terms of technique regarding my squat, I'm pretty certain I do it right because I have looked at so many videos online and I constantly keep my eye on my technique in the mirrors. However I will have a PT take a look at it again. I like to be perfect lol.

So I have had a look at some full body programs and many recommend doing one exercise per body part is this correct. On the days I workout I intend to train my core and do cardio work as well is that compatible with a full body program?

Some information about me I'm 22 I'm 5ft 7 I weigh 77kg based on the last time I weighed myself which was a few weeks ago. I have been training for about 6 months.

So due to the disagreement regarding programs. I would like to ask you to give me an example workout program based on your personal opinion.

Thanks

Khuz

deadlybuzzman

Deleted User wrote: »

Ok so there has been a fair bit of commentary there. In terms of technique regarding my squat, I'm pretty certain I do it right because I have looked at so many videos online and I constantly keep my eye on my technique in the mirrors. However I will have a PT take a look at it again. I like to be perfect lol.

Would anyone else be in agreement that bearing in mind the hugely inconsistent quality of trainers it might be no harm for the OP to post a squat video on here?
Hopefully he has a good trainer at his gym but you never know