Is there any real point to our Justice system ?

AlekSmart

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/jail-for-brothers-who-beat-old-man-to-death-for-pound45-300229.html

This account from 2002 coupled with the gentleman`s already proven interest in killing elderly people is now back in the news.

Oddly enough it appears the main reason for Public Interest is his relationship with a former accomplice who also served time for aiding and abetting his murderous ventures.

Have any of the relevant parties taken an interest in what is expected of the general public when the likes of Mr Doyle comes calling ?

Surely some questions worth asking of the relevant eager politicians when the knock on our (Locked and Bolted) doors ?

Tea drinker

The court heard both defendants were heroin users. Between them, they have 13 children.

Well isn't that a great case for sterilization?
I should say that the best thing is to keep these subhuman animals locked up permanently. As usual though, after a series of violent assaults they eventually kill someone. I don't know how the juduciary can't be found liable, they are certainly found wanting.

johnnyskeleton

AlekSmart wrote: »

Surely some questions worth asking of the relevant eager politicians when the knock on our (Locked and Bolted) doors ?

What questions? You're all about questions, but very sparse on answers. Real practical answers, as opposed to hang em all answers.

AlekSmart

Johnnyskeleton: What questions? You're all about questions, but very sparse on answers. Real practical answers, as opposed to hang em all answers.

It`s a fair enough comment Johnnyskeleton.

Do you have an aversion to questioning of our judicial system and it`s procedures ?

I`m guessing that Johnnyskeleton has an affiliation with or partakes in the administration of this system,something which I have no problem with and would indeed see as a positive aspect to any non-specialized discussion forum such as this.

I will not make any apologies for asking questions concerning this particular case and attempting to comprehend the processes which allowed or perhaps even facilitated the level of barbarity inflicted by these individuals on some very elderly people indeed.

I think perhaps the entire article from 2002 is worth reflecting upon....

By Liz Walsh

Saturday July 20 2002
TWO brothers who targeted elderly people to rob were jailed for a total of 27 years yesterday for killing an 81-year-old bachelor farmer who was beaten to death for £45.

Sentencing John Doyle to 15 years and his brother Christopher to 12 years for the manslaughter of Meath farmer Paddy Logan on June 5, 2000, Mr JusticeB Paul Carney said no sentence he could impose would adequately deal with the horror of this case.

The pair were further sentenced to three years for the robbery of Mr Logan's 85-year-old brother, Peter, who was injured in the attack.

The court heard John Doyle was previously convicted of stabbing an 84-year-old man to death in Dublin in 1984. He was also convicted of the burglary of an elderly couple in England - an offence that happened after the killing of Mr Logan.

Christopher Doyle also has a number of convictions for violent crimes, including that of beating an elderly spinster after he broke into the bedroom of her home in England.

The defendants are from a family of settled Travellers whose mother sent John out to steal when he was seven years old, the court heard.

John (35), no fixed address, and Christopher (29), formerly of Fatima Mansions, Dublin, whose last address was St Fintan's Grove, Lucan, Co Dublin, had denied murder but pleaded guilty to the manslaughter of Paddy Logan.

At the Central Criminal Court yesterday Peter Logan had to be helped to the stand to give evidence of how his life was destroyed by the killing of his brother. The court heard he sustained a fractured nose in the attack and since then has been on anti-depressants and suffers from recurring flashbacks and nightmares.

The two elderly brothers lived alone at Castlejordan, Co Meath. They had been listening to a match on the radio when the Doyles broke in demanding money.

The court heard the Doyles targeted Paddy and Peter Logan in January, 2000, five months before the killing. John Doyle received a tip-off from another settled Traveller that the Logans did not use banks and kept their money in the house. When John Doyle went to the house alone, Paddy fired twice from his shotgun and he ran off.

Supt Peter Wheeler, Tullamore, told the court that both accused admitted their part in the robbery but each blamed the other for the fatal attack on Paddy Logan.

He said that on the day of the killing Christopher Doyle met John and his partner Jennifer Dunne and all three drove out to the Logan house. Jennifer Dunne waited nearby while the brothers went inside. Ms Dunne has already pleaded guilty to burglary in connection with the same incident and was sentenced to 11 months suspended.

The superintendent said that in custody, Christopher Doyle admitted they "were going out to rob two old fellows who had a lot of money". When they broke in, the brothers were beside the fireplace, listening to a match on the radio.

Supt Wheeler said Paddy Logan was beaten severely. He died from an accumulation of blood around the heart caused by rupture of the aortic wall. Post mortem results showed that the violent assault led to raised blood pressure which caused the rupture.

After killing Paddy, the Doyles took £45 from Peter Logan's pockets before escaping.

The court heard both defendants were heroin users. Between them, they have 13 children. The court also heard that John Doyle was repatriated from a prison in England where he was serving a three-year sentence from the burglary and theft of stg£11 from an elderly couple in Exeter. He is now in protective custody in Mountjoy and spends 23 hours a day in solitary confinement.

At age 17, he was jailed for three years for the manslaughter of 84-year-old Matthew Coates in Clondalkin, Dublin in June 1984. In 1996, Christopher Doyle was jailed for three years by Bournemouth Crown Court after he broke into the bedroom of an elderly spinster and beat her while demanding money. She died three months later. Garda sources said the brothers were career criminals who went on reconnaissance here and in the UK looking for elderly and vulnerable people to rob.

Mr Justice Carney said: "For the sake of £45 the life of one man was snuffed out and his brother had his destroyed." They then engaged in the "cut-throat defence" of blaming each other.

Afterwards, Peter Logan said he thought the sentence was fair but that that the convicted men ruined his life when they killed his brother Paddy.

- Liz Walsh

Now if after reading this account I`m to be accused of asking too many questions then so be it...

I neither know,nor am I particularly concerned,as to whether Johnnyskeleton is content that our Judicial system functioned to it`s maximum efficiency in it`s dealings with these people.

I`m suggesting,that to most reasonable persons,these highly dangerous individuals represent a very real threat to any elderly persons living within reach of them.

If,to quote Johnnyskeleton,that questioning represents a "hang em all" attitude then so be it,but i`m uncertain as to whether he is suggesting that the questioning of our judicial system by "the great unwashed" is somehow undesirable or distasteful to those who practice within it ?

If my (or any) questions result in any "Real Practical Answers" from those supposedly in charge, then surely they will have served a purpose ?

Equally it`s always open to Johnnyskeleton to merely walk on by when he sees my name in lights !

Or perhaps we should maintain a stoic silence and hope the Doyles now present as reformed and eminently trustworthy characters ?

Tea drinker

here we go again:
http://www.independent.ie/national-news/rapist-attacked-woman-just-hours-after-release-2547329.html

A CONVICTED rapist attacked a woman just 14 hours after he was released from jail and while he was under garda surveillance.
Trevor Byrne attacked three women during the past 18 years despite only being out of jail for hours during that time. He will be sentenced next month.

Are there any womens groups who have an interest in this? Why is their basic right to walk the streets safely being denied in order that this freak is allowed out to slake his thirst?

johnnyskeleton

AlekSmart wrote: »

Do you have an aversion to questioning of our judicial system and it`s procedures ?

No. I have a problem with the idea that a questioning of the judicial system is a link to a newspaper report then a generalised comment about how life is so unfair.

A logical analysis goes as follows:
1. Assess the problem;
2. Identify the cause of the problem;
3. Set out ways to fix the problem.

So if you stop deflecting the issues, what is the problem, what is the cause of the problem, and what is the way to fix the problem. Otherwise, you are just ranting.

AlekSmart

Johnnyskeleton: No. I have a problem with the idea that a questioning of the judicial system is a link to a newspaper report then a generalised comment about how life is so unfair.

A logical analysis goes as follows:
1. Assess the problem;
2. Identify the cause of the problem;
3. Set out ways to fix the problem.

So if you stop deflecting the issues, what is the problem, what is the cause of the problem, and what is the way to fix the problem. Otherwise, you are just ranting.

All well and good Johnnyskeleton and you may rest assured I have no intention of obstructing the process of logic whether it`s yours or any other entity able to "set out ways to fix the problem".

I`m afraid I don`t see my questioning as "Deflecting" from issues as you describe it.

I`m fairly certain that very few of the Logical processes described in Johnnyskeletons post will occur at all without stringent questioning of our systems.

Johnnyskeleton may see this questioning as "just ranting",which may reflect a more narrowly focused legalistic approach to the issues...That`s a hugely personal trait and hopefully not indicative of a desire to frustrate open and non-legalistic discussion of serious examples of public concern.

As for linking to the Newspaper reports,the reality for most Citizens is that their primary link to the Judicial Process lies with and through the Media.

If the reportage is presented in a true and accurate format I,for one,see no great issue in using to support or inform a post.

As for a "generalized comment about life being unfair",there`s very little "generalized" about the effects this gentleman`s release will have on a great many of those who were unfortunate enough to be targeted by him and his associates.

Oddly enough Johnnyskeleton`s comment could,of itself,be described as generalized,in how it apparently seeks to downplay or ridicule anothers quite strongly held opinions on our Judicial processes.

M cebee

is the problem that these people are allowed back out without being rehabilitated?

that's if we can get them 'off the streets' in the first place

johnnyskeleton

AlekSmart wrote: »

As for a "generalized comment about life being unfair",there`s very little "generalized" about the effects this gentleman`s release will have on a great many of those who were unfortunate enough to be targeted by him and his associates.

But you haven't actually said anything of substance. You haven't said what was wrong with the sentence, why that is a problem, what should be done to correct it etc.

All you have done is express vague displeasure, more it seems at the fact that crime happens at all than at the actual judicial system.

So if you want politicians to agree with your view of general dissatisfaction with the current system, then I'm sure they will do so. However, you haven't identified any basis for change or anything to be implemented.

sollar

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

You haven't said what was wrong with the sentence, why that is a problem, what should be done to correct it etc.

IMO we need more US style sentences. Where they may have faced 40 years for the first killing and the second wouldn't have taken place

whiteonion

We need the death penalty but NO people with bleeding hearts talk about the human rights of criminals all the time. If he was executed the first time none of these would ever have happened.

How much longer should innocent people die because of your bleeding hearts?

M cebee

i agree-we're soft on crime

there seems to be a revolving door system

and these guys are back out regardless

it's not the guards fault anyhow

StupidLikeAFox

You cant pick a couple of cases and use it to say the whole judicial system is useless. What you never hear is the thousands of cases in which justice is done and thats the end of it, or those people who go to jail but end up being productive members of society in the long run.

Im no bleeding heart liberal either, I would very much like to see those people in the stories strung up, however you cant judge a whole legal system based on some isolated cases which have fell through the cracks

Tea drinker

whiteonion wrote: »

How much longer should innocent people die because of your bleeding hearts?

Do gooders=do badders in this case.