Training beneficial for Hill/Mountain Runners

T runner

Just realising the amount of expertise we have on here WRT hill runners.

Between PN, Bazman, Enduro, Peterx, Kiwirunner we have multiple League and championship winners and scores of international caps.

All these runners seem to have come to their hill running success from very different angles. e.g Enduro comes from a side of huge aerobic capacity and endurance. League races are "quality" sessions for him. Bazman is more speed oriented but with an endurance base, and PN's training might represent that of a pure elite mountain running schedule.
Raighne has taken his philosophies fron the great NZ coach Arthur lydiard and has modified them with expertise from the FRA in England for local hillrunners.

Thought this might be a good thread to discuss the different training/training sessions that might be beneficial to hill racing and how they work together in a schedule.

Maybe anyone can put their training here for discussion also.

Last weeks taining for me was: long easy hill run, 5m CC race, long intervals (6 by 1k with 2 mins rest), 20 mins session of Kiwirunner's diagonals, easy running in between. About 80k in total.

Also i did a hard circuit session with a group on wednesday and two other days on core, plyometrics etc on my own so half sessions.
I will hope to swap a second weekly hill run (a session), when strong enough. Im racing on sunday otherwise id have a tempo/pace run (or flat CC race). Tempo will be a constant if not racing.
I want to increase the diagonals to be 400m reps, and hopefully with the circuits this will increase my economy and speed and translate to faster times.
Im training for shorter races (baby due in April). Therefore the long run will not be climbed hard, rather the quality will be in seperate sessions.

If i was training for longer champs races i guess id climb harder in my long runs making them quality sessions.

There will not be much periodisation although things will get sharper later in the year with more emphasise on periodic maintainance runs to keep hill strenght and speed endurance.

Any comments welcome. I havent put any of thsi together in a scheduled structure yet.

(it is a common phenomenum that babies on horizons induce promising schedules which are should have dones more than will dos, but ill put it out there anyway!)

Anyway. What type of training are you doing to meet your objectives on the hills this year?
What type of hill sessions do you do?

ocnoc

Surviving college, clocking in a +36hr week. Interspersed with sporadic inconstant random pointless training, maybe 2-3 times a week at most . . .

Will this be enough to win me an Irish Title?? :rolleyes:

T runner

ocnoc wrote: »

Surviving college, clocking in a +36hr week. Interspersed with sporadic inconstant random pointless training, maybe 2-3 times a week at most . . .

Will this be enough to win me an Irish Title?? :rolleyes:

I have the Irish title for excuses so stay away from that!

We need to put a trace on you to verify this only 2-3 times a week lark.

Timmaay

ocnoc wrote: »

Surviving college, clocking in a +36hr week. Interspersed with sporadic inconstant random pointless training, maybe 2-3 times a week at most . . .

Ha, I know the feeling, Balancing a PhD, Job, Hill running, Athletics training and 2 other sports means something has to give, My weekly mileage varies from 10 to 40miles a week, and I would prefer to be doing 50+ consistently, with 1/2 in the hills, someday maybe!

Enduro

It's easy to log my training sessions at the moment. Last week : 0, this week : 0, next week : 0. Have to stop breaking bones :rolleyes:

Peterx

Good idea T Runner.
What worked for me;

1: I stopped the dipping in and out of 3/4 sports and focussed on running

2: I joined a running club that had much stronger runners than me and trained within the club structure - Tuesday sessions, Saturday tempo, Sunday long runs.

Along with this I put in two good cross country seasons which really brought on my racing head, in hillraces it can be very easy to lose concentration, if you lose concentration in CC you lose 10 places in 20 seconds.
I strongly believe that cycling is very benifical to hillrunning, both in terms of uphill strength and also being able to keep training when your legs are about to get injured from running

PositiveNegativ

Seconded, great idea

This week from my 2006 training diary (the last year I trained hard)

Sat - Long hill run 128.06 (18.4km 915m) Lugalla Car Park - Luggala - Carrigvore - Sally Gap - War Hill - Djouce - Car park

Sun - Easy Hill run 45:55 Three Rock

Mon - Easy run 90:16 @ 4:40min/km Deer park - St Helens - UCD

Tue - Steady run 60:00 @ 4:00min/km

Weds - Easy run 60:09 UCD, yapping with PeterX

Thurs - 20:00 warmup, 30:00 Tempo @ 3:30min/km, 15:25 cooldown

Fri - Rest day

Total running time 452 minutes.
I never bothered with measuring distances, always found times more relevant. Any min/km times are based on dropping down onto the UCD track to do a km during the run. For longer runs I'd normally fit in two track km's early and late to check my pacing was even.

From this point of the year onwards I'd introduce more speed work by dropping the long run every second week to do a hill rep session, I always considered the long run as a hard day so this was a straight swap. The speed work would normally be a mix of flat and hill reps.

Here's a week from mid March

Sat - warmup, 8 x 2min uphill (1 min jog recovery), cooldown 62:20 total

Sun - Easy Hill run 42:44 Three Rock

Mon - Easy run 42:23 @ 4:30min/km Deerpark & UCD

Tue - Steady/Steady+ 60:00 @ 3:38min/km UCD

Weds - Easy Run 62:02 UCD again with PeterX

Thurs - Fartlek, 19:56 warmup, 2-1-2-1-2-1-2-1-2-1-2-1 (1 min jog recovery) 21:44 cooldown, 70:40 total. Wore Walshs for grip in wet UCD fields.

Fri - Rest day

Total running time 346 minutes.

Nothing particular special about it, just consistent pressure. I think the one thing I did differently from most is I never did a flat run longer than 80/90 minutes. All my long runs were over mountains with a good proportion of that time spent off tracks in the heather. Also I never ran downhill fast in training, too risky alone and too slow to recover from.

Right that's enough for the moment.

ocnoc

@PN

Would you ever have done much double running?

PositiveNegativ

Double running? You'll have to explain.

ocnoc

Two runs a day.
Out for a run in the morning followed by the normal training run in the evening?

PositiveNegativ

ocnoc wrote: »

Two runs a day.
Out for a run in the morning followed by the normal training run in the evening?

I should have coped that sorry.

Tried adding 20 min pre-breakfast runs for about 6 weeks one Nov/Dec. To be honest I wasn't operating at the level outlined about so probably gained little/nothing (apart from being very clean). I stopped due to getting a flu over that Christmas which knocked the stuffing out of me for a month, thought the extra sleep time more important.

ocnoc

Hill reps for mountain running?!

Personally, with my 1-2 runs a week I don't do them (may potentially be a very very big lie ).

Do others? If so, how many? How often? How long?

Short? Wicklow Way to Fairy Castle? Extremely hard? Easy?
Medium length? Taylors to Fairy Castle? Extremely hard? Easy?
Long? Laragh to Tonelegee?? Extremely hard? Easy?
None? Too many?

Latest train of thought is no more than twice per week in the hills. One "hill reps" and the long run or else you get slow.

Crazy talk or common sense?

T runner

ocnoc wrote: »

Hill reps for mountain running?!

Personally, with my 1-2 runs a week I don't do them (may potentially be a very very big lie ).

Do others? If so, how many? How often? How long?

Short? Wicklow Way to Fairy Castle? Extremely hard? Easy?
Medium length? Taylors to Fairy Castle? Extremely hard? Easy?
Long? Laragh to Tonelegee?? Extremely hard? Easy?
None? Too many?

Latest train of thought is no more than twice per week in the hills. One "hill reps" and the long run or else you get slow.

Crazy talk or common sense?

PN mentioned his 2 min session. ie 8-10 ny 2 min very hard (slightly faster than race pace i think) with 1 min rest.
Intensity looks like VO2 max range.

he also said about long runs that inlude 2-4 long climbs done at strong errort (but controlled and short of race pace).

Ive heard of a session of John Lenihans: Up and down a hill for 30-50 mins. Hill is 4-10 mins climb long i think, Recovery on descent, but descent is brisk not a jog. e.g stile on Lug route to Camara top, up and down 40 mins.

So maybe 2 types of training: endurance and race pace.

Your sessions are endurance based. I guess youd choose them based on up coming targetted events. I would usually do training like those. The shorter ones, apparently are good for power and techique (and stressing aerobic system more).

Kiwirunner mentioned another session on his Kenya blog: 40 mins of 1 min hard up and return.

Sounds like a great one for climbing power. Suitable for shorter rcaes and running economy i guess (like the 2 min ones) although it works on endurance too, yet allowing you run more powerfully up the hills.

Im off to Sligo for long weekend.

Recovering from a cold, but hopefully tommorrow its the Jason session. Sat its a medium cycle (not ardous but will contain a climb) and easy run. Sun its PN's long run concentrating on hills and climbing endurance.
I need to get as far up Maulin as i can without walking. The rest of the week will be flat work for the downhill and recovery before Maulin on Saturday.

If not recovered it will be easy stuff tommorrow.

One session i havent seen often is an equivalent of a track rep: say 90s powerfully up a hill, working on technique and power.
Full recovery: 4-5 mins if necessary before repeating.

PositiveNegativ

One session some of the NIMRA Boys & Girls did in the past was what they called the 'Pendulum' run. They would start from Newcastle and run up along the Glen River path to the saddle between Donard & Commedagh. Then do hill reps up each in turn. How many I can't tell but knowing some of them they weren't going all that way up just do do a light session.

As T Runner point's out the hill reps I did were just faster then race pace. One of my key/favorite sessions was to start at the footbridge where the WW crosses the Glencree River and do 2 minute efforts up through Crone and the zigzag path to the top of Maulin. The beauty/ugliness of it was that each rep was that bit steeper than the previous one. The last few to the top being hell on the quads.

ocnoc

I tend to do a flat speed session with the club, with that been my only interval session.

When talking to an top orienteer/hill runner, he put the point to me, "So you rep around a track in sub 60sec, again and again and again. But you race 10,000m. Whats the point in repping at 60sec/lap pace when you won't race at that pace?"

I think indirectly I use that same method when it comes to mountain training. All of my "mountain" work is in orienteering sessions. So I'm running in terrain, at a steady pace, just below lactic threshold.

So basically, helping to develop the lactic buffer, while working on leg strenght, with the track working on leg turn over speed.

Your could argue that running hills in terrain teaches you to turn the legs over more slowly... Responce - Come play with me in Stone Cross to Lug... Come into my web said the spider to the fly...

(on a side note: why are clubs so afraid to enter a team into that race... its a such a buzz)

Raighne

ocnoc wrote: »

I tend to do a flat speed session with the club, with that been my only interval session.

When talking to an top orienteer/hill runner, he put the point to me, "So you rep around a track in sub 60sec, again and again and again. But you race 10,000m. Whats the point in repping at 60sec/lap pace when you won't race at that pace?"

I think indirectly I use that same method when it comes to mountain training. All of my "mountain" work is in orienteering sessions. So I'm running in terrain, at a steady pace, just below lactic threshold.

So basically, helping to develop the lactic buffer, while working on leg strenght, with the track working on leg turn over speed.

Your could argue that running hills in terrain teaches you to turn the legs over more slowly... Responce - Come play with me in Stone Cross to Lug... Come into my web said the spider to the fly...

(on a side note: why are clubs so afraid to enter a team into that race... its a such a buzz)

Slightly off-topic, but I don't think fear comes into it. Looking at our own club, the male Crusaders who run in the hills the most train at the track the least (for practical reasons generally) so are not there to advocate the sport to newcomers.

So short answer is, I doubt the majority of club runners have any idea what mountain running, much less Stone Cross to Lug is. This is similar to what you see in other IMRA leagues. Ours is a niche sport, so you the need the fortune to have a group of runners in love with the sport in your club at the right time (and not injured) to be successful in the hills at a team level.

Then there's the whole issue of priorities. We've played with the thought of entering twice, but people (including myself) have their own goals and targets, so the race just never fit in. If you've peaked for the Worlds and are looking for another big performance in the marathon or the cross-country, the race likewise be difficult to fit in.

And it's fair to say that if you are not already active in orienteering or mountain running, it would be hard to see the appeal in Stone Cross to Lug when there's a busy Autumn racing calendar competing with it.

ocnoc

the end of that was meant in jest.

Most runners are either just finished up a track session, in prep for a marathon, have no interest or are off in europe (finishing up an orienteering season or prepping for the World Trial).

Historically it has always been a small clique event in a small clique association.

I always use the word fear or afraid, mainly to get a reaction

thirstywork2

Tips from John Lenihan

John Lenihan started running in the early 1980s. Living on a hillside farm made him a natural climber and descender and lover of nature. In 1991 he won the World Trophy in Zermatt Switzerland, an accomplishment which he regards as the pinnacle of his many achievements which include twice national half-marathon champion (63:15), 10 miles in 47:19, and 13:55 for 5,000m. Here he distils his 25 years on the hills into some valuable tips for you.

· it’s the real deal, it’s what our ancestors did to survive, there is nothing greater than the feeling of freedom of a human being striding gracefully along forest trails across rippling rivers and with lungs heaving and a sweat glistening on your body as you climb higher and higher until finally you stand on the summit and survey the landscape far below, you may not have won the race but mentally and physically you’ve pushed your body to its limits and you’ve conquered the mountain and that’s a victory in itself.

· For someone who wants fulfilment and adventure it’s the total workout, with ascents and descents mixed with flat fast running. Every muscle in the body gets tested, for those with the love of a good mental challenge this is your calling as from start to finish your brain works overtime from working out where your next foot strike will land to how to get the best line across the landscape ahead.

· Mountain running takes you to some of the most remote and beautiful parts of the World, and in doing so introduces you to some truly amazing people. I’ve raced track, road and cross country but nowhere will you find the warmth and comradeship as experienced with fellow mountain runners, it’s as if we are all part of the one team and the mountain is our opponent.

· If you want to be a winning mountain runner you need to be flexible, agile and have quick reflexes but above all a passion and a pride that will never allow you to succumb to your pain while an opponent stands between you and the finish line. I trained hard on the road, track and country but rarely trained hard on the mountains, to me the mountain run was sacred, a place where I moved as lightly and as silently as possible, it was here that I trained myself to breathe efficiently, to work on my posture and to focus on the summit, all this kept me mentally fresh for race day and when that gun went I felt as if I was transformed into some creature who was part of that rugged landscape, I felt at home and I felt safe.

· When you train on the mountains be part of the mountain and don’t regard it as your enemy, don’t fight those climbs, embrace them, train mostly within your comfort zone otherwise you lose your posture and composure, slowly and surely you will push your comfort zone to a higher level and a faster pace, remember it’s a sport, sport is something that you need to enjoy, too many people get all scientific and wrapped up in trying to change their style, trying to change their diet, wondering about which supplement to take next etc., this is a benefit to the elite few but for the majority of us it soon becomes a chore, the word sport is lost and early retirement is the end result.

· Running is a natural thing, don’t confuse it but keep it simple, be consistent in your training, set high goals but with many mini goals along the way, like climbing a ladder the top is the high goal but don’t try to jump from the bottom to the top as you may get hurt and broken and disillusioned, use the steps that’s what they are there for and you may surprise yourself as to how high you can climb, don’t say success can’t happen for you look at what happened for me when I was in national school I was told that I was too slow to catch a cold, 20 years later I was standing on the podium listening to the Irish anthem and receiving the gold medal at the World Trophy mountain race in Switzerland, for someone who was too slow to catch a cold I managed to represent Ireland in track, road, cross country and mountain running, just keep it simple, train consistently, believe in yourself, enjoy your sport and even if you don’t win a gold medal you will be a better person with a better quality of life.

Go not where the path may lead, but go instead where there is no path, and leave a trail that others may follow.

Raighne

There are some interesting articles available on fell-training for both seniors and juniors on the Horwich Harriers website:

http://www.horwichrmiharriers.co.uk/coaching/felltrainingsenior.htm

PositiveNegativ

ocnoc wrote: »

Historically it has always been a small clique event in a small clique association.

Historically speaking, the Lug Relay was held mid summer rather than tacked on late season. Today the role of mid season highlight (which the Lug Relay was) is taken by the WWR. Swooping the dates of these two would be an interesting experiment.

T runner

PositiveNegativ wrote: »

One session some of the NIMRA Boys & Girls did in the past was what they called the 'Pendulum' run. They would start from Newcastle and run up along the Glen River path to the saddle between Donard & Commedagh. Then do hill reps up each in turn. How many I can't tell but knowing some of them they weren't going all that way up just do do a light session.

As T Runner point's out the hill reps I did were just faster then race pace. One of my key/favorite sessions was to start at the footbridge where the WW crosses the Glencree River and do 2 minute efforts up through Crone and the zigzag path to the top of Maulin. The beauty/ugliness of it was that each rep was that bit steeper than the previous one. The last few to the top being hell on the quads.

I was considering Pendulum session locations. I was jokingly thinking of Djouce and Mailin from the bridge, but actually the first part of both climbs might be suitable enough. (Not nearly as good as the saddle mentioned though).

lizanne83

Great thread. I am really interested in starting hill/mountain running… possibly with IMRA. Following years of proper marathon training (clocking 50+ miles/week), I got badly injured for 18 months of no running (some of you already know this!). Got back into running (gradually post-severe injury) only last year.

Back at it now but ‘training’ is dire. Similar to some of the other posters, time is not on my side. I’m working fulltime 40+ hour week job while also juggling a 2-year masters (MBA). Gave up the gym last year as its pointless waste of time. Signed up to the BHAA Cross-Country league so I can ‘train’ for these races which are on every couple of weeks, therefore regular short-term goals. The same structured week now is as follows: Monday’s (work 13 hr/day, no exercise), Tuesdays = 6 miles, Wednesdays (work 13 hr/day), Thursday = 6 miles, Friday (work long) Saturday = 6 miles, Sunday = 6-10 miles.

So I’m averaging about 25 miles/week now (half of what did before). Speed is improving but nothing like before. I know that as soon as I finish masters (August) I really need to join a club & start some proper speed sessions again & get ‘back’. Hills… that’s where it’s at. Would love to find a group that do hill sessions +/ mountains? For now… work+study is the focus but the BHAA leagues are great as they're very fast short-distance so don’t require a huge amount of training so ideal really.... plus a chance to finally meet like-minded people

6 months to go…. Then I get ‘into it’ again… but more sensible. Correct me if I’m wrong but I think Hill running results in overall lesser injuries & more effective training as it is also a form of strength training – working up stronger leg muscles (climbing as opposed to pounding flat surface) plus it is generally softer terrain (grass/trail)? Thinking to mix it in with triathlon too so the focus is not always on SLR’s etc on flat surface. Dreaming for now… but that's what keeps me going

T runner

lizanne83 wrote: »

Great thread. I am really interested in starting hill/mountain running… possibly with IMRA. Following years of proper marathon training (clocking 50+ miles/week), I got badly injured for 18 months of no running (some of you already know this!). Got back into running (gradually post-severe injury) only last year.

Back at it now but ‘training’ is dire. Similar to some of the other posters, time is not on my side. I’m working fulltime 40+ hour week job while also juggling a 2-year masters (MBA). Gave up the gym last year as its pointless waste of time. Signed up to the BHAA Cross-Country league so I can ‘train’ for these races which are on every couple of weeks, therefore regular short-term goals. The same structured week now is as follows: Monday’s (work 13 hr/day, no exercise), Tuesdays = 6 miles, Wednesdays (work 13 hr/day), Thursday = 6 miles, Friday (work long) Saturday = 6 miles, Sunday = 6-10 miles.

So I’m averaging about 25 miles/week now (half of what did before). Speed is improving but nothing like before. I know that as soon as I finish masters (August) I really need to join a club & start some proper speed sessions again & get ‘back’. Hills… that’s where it’s at. Would love to find a group that do hill sessions +/ mountains? For now… work+study is the focus but the BHAA leagues are great as they're very fast short-distance so don’t require a huge amount of training so ideal really.... plus a chance to finally meet like-minded people

6 months to go…. Then I get ‘into it’ again… but more sensible. Correct me if I’m wrong but I think Hill running results in overall lesser injuries & more effective training as it is also a form of strength training – working up stronger leg muscles (climbing as opposed to pounding flat surface) plus it is generally softer terrain (grass/trail)? Thinking to mix it in with triathlon too so the focus is not always on SLR’s etc on flat surface. Dreaming for now… but that's what keeps me going

Hi Lizanne,

To stsrt, At the end of a couple of six mile runs you can incorporate a few reps up a steep hill. Glide down recovery. 30-60 secs uphill reps to start with, just run powerfuly, but controlled and relaxed. Dont ahve to kill yourself its just to get your body to transition to being stronger. Also i'd stick in some bodyw eight circuits with them: Push ups, squats, core excercises, abs etc.

At the end of another run you could incorporate some diagonals: Run fast on diagonal of soccer pitch, jog very slow on the side. You could do anything from 10-40 mins of these. These are great for leg speed.

You dont have to do these as a strict schedule, but they are good to try out to see what suits you. If you are consistent youll see good results.

If not racing, maybe do a tempo run in stead of a race.

Strenght from hills will help teh CC and road running too, provided you keep your leg speed.

There should be groups hill running advertised on the IMRA foruma nd here sometimes.

lizanne83

Thanks a lot T Runner

I should have said that I have 2 steep bridges to go over on my midweek 2 X 6 miles so I face the bridge climb twice on each run…. And for every time I reach a bottom of the bridge /’hill’, I race hard up these (can’t go up bridges/hills without going as fast as possible!) apart from this, all flat.

I completely agree with the core strengthening too and did an hour of core religiously all through injury… I absolute advocate its value and necessity for runners but since quitting gym, I really have no time at present. Doing good to get the 4 runs/week.

Take all your advice on board though; thanks for that. Looking forward to seeing the group hill runs advertised on the IMRA forum soon then

T runner

lizanne83 wrote: »

Thanks a lot T Runner

I should have said that I have 2 steep bridges to go over on my midweek 2 X 6 miles so I face the bridge climb twice on each run…. And for every time I reach a bottom of the bridge /’hill’, I race hard up these (can’t go up bridges/hills without going as fast as possible!) apart from this, all flat.

I completely agree with the core strengthening too and did an hour of core religiously all through injury… I absolute advocate its value and necessity for runners but since quitting gym, I really have no time at present. Doing good to get the 4 runs/week.

Take all your advice on board though; thanks for that. Looking forward to seeing the group hill runs advertised on the IMRA forum soon then

Maulin race this saturday is technically a group hill run!
Steep and not that runnable though. There is a race on 2 weeks after which is a perfect starter: runnable, fast, fireroad.


There should be training organised for the intermediate weekend.

ocnoc

How do people best recovery from a hill race?

Jump in a stream post race?
Compression tights?
Cold showers?

Sit it out and wait for 5 days for the DOMS to go away...

TFBubendorfer

Not exactly recovery from a hill race, but my coach recently converted me to using cold baths after hard workouts (10 minutes sitting in a tub of water of about 10C). They do work wonders.

jeffontour

ocnoc wrote: »

Jump in a stream post race?

Where possible!

ocnoc wrote: »

Compression tights?

I bought a pair of the Skins recovery jobs and do feel they help with recovery, particularly if I'm doing longer runs back to back. I sleep in them.

Is ocnoc feeling the efforts of the weekend still?

ocnoc

jeffontour wrote: »

Is ocnoc feeling the efforts of the weekend still?

Sunday morning...I want to die... (so I went orienteering :P )
Monday... extremely sore.
Tuesday morning.... tender
Tuesday evening... study :rolleyes: felt great, after the first 3 reps... i mean topics

I sat in the lake at glendo (sub 10*C), up well past my waist. I threw compression tights on straight after.
That night, hot shower and sprayed my legs down with cold water again. Slept in tights...

Still frecking crippled and I wasn't even flat out on the entire descent.... I would enjoy recovering faster.

Would strength training aid faster recovery?

Nem_e

I was still walking funny tuesday morning with the pain in my legs after my efforts at the weekend, i'd tried cold baths and showers and did a slow run on monday to no avail.

Jumped on the bike for 40 mins yesterday lucnh time and followed by a hot shower and i've been grand since. Try a bike ride?

ocnoc

TFBubendorfer wrote: »

hard workouts

A hard work out is never anywhere close to the suffering of a hard technical mind burn descent.

bike ride

To and from study

PositiveNegativ

There is one way to ease the pain. You might all find it distasteful, I know I did... Slow down.

Other than that you just have to accept that the best things in life come at a cost.

TFBubendorfer

ocnoc wrote: »

A hard work out is never anywhere close to the suffering of a hard technical mind burn descent.

I'm perfectly aware of that. The treatment might still be the same, though.
Mind, 4 days after the event there's probably not much point to jumping into cold water any more.

T runner

ocnoc wrote: »

Sunday morning...I want to die... (so I went orienteering :P )
Monday... extremely sore.
Tuesday morning.... tender
Tuesday evening... study :rolleyes: felt great, after the first 3 reps... i mean topics

I sat in the lake at glendo (sub 10*C), up well past my waist. I threw compression tights on straight after.
That night, hot shower and sprayed my legs down with cold water again. Slept in tights...

Still frecking crippled and I wasn't even flat out on the entire descent.... I would enjoy recovering faster.

Would strength training aid faster recovery?

Your legs grow back stronger apparently. (article downhill running on IMRA site if and when its up).

It goes taht the First race of the year kills them but the tears caught by the eccentric contractions mesh together stronger while mending.

If you do a race no scarcer than every six weeks pain wont be as bad, but if you dont the legs will weaken again and be torn up again.

I guess to condition them you could do a few shorter races or a few hard downhills as a kind of vacine.

I didnt get too sore in the winter league this year. A little sore after the Maulin race. Another guy at that race hadnt done hills in years. Could barely walk all week.

Ive noticed that soreness when i used to paly indoor soccer too. First game legs very sore from all the poundinga nd braking. after taht, grand.

ocnoc

PositiveNegativ wrote: »

There is one way to ease the pain. You might all find it distasteful, I know I did... Slow down.

Or.... I could go faster, hence spend less time descending, so less time descending = less pain... :rolleyes:

T runner

ocnoc wrote: »

PositiveNegativ wrote: »

There is one way to ease the pain. You might all find it distasteful, I know I did... Slow down.

Or.... I could go faster, hence spend less time descending, so less time descending = less pain... :rolleyes:

There will be some phantom pain in your phantom legs though.

PositiveNegativ

Or.... I could go faster, hence spend less time descending, so less time descending = less pain... :rolleyes:

Not in the National Park, they take a very dim view of people setting heather fires.

ocnoc

Best Thing to do for sore legs after descending...

Descend a few hills nice and easy... works the same muscles and gets the blood flowing!

T runner

ocnoc wrote: »

Best Thing to do for sore legs after descending...

Descend a few hills nice and easy... works the same muscles and gets the blood flowing!

Dont know about that. Youre trying to heal muscles that are basically torn. You might loosen the muscles up a bit but theyll still need to heal. Contracting them in that way again may do more damage than good. Easy cycling might get the blood in there with no jarring.

Or else run up the hill backwards!!!!

ocnoc

Did a little bit of research on this whole - extreme pain after a hard down hill.

Muscles work in two ways, contraction and extension.
Apparently, the damage done to muscles when they are put under a force when in the extension phase (down hill running) is magnatuides greater than when a force is put on muscles when contracting (up hill running)...

Also, it takes a lot longer for muscles to repair after extension loading than contracting loading.

A physio doing weight lifting research with the Australian Institute of Sport was doing tests 6 months apart to allow the athletes muscles time to recover fully. The tests were on muscle damage while conducting one rep maximium.

So that means I should only mountain race hard twice a year...!

So it was a mistake to race Hillwood on Tuesday, Scarr on a Wednesday and Carrauntoohil on Sunday :P ya live and learn

T runner

ocnoc wrote: »

Did a little bit of research on this whole - extreme pain after a hard down hill.

Muscles work in two ways, contraction and extension.
Apparently, the damage done to muscles when they are put under a force when in the extension phase (down hill running) is magnatuides greater than when a force is put on muscles when contracting (up hill running)...

Also, it takes a lot longer for muscles to repair after extension loading than contracting loading.

A physio doing weight lifting research with the Australian Institute of Sport was doing tests 6 months apart to allow the athletes muscles time to recover fully. The tests were on muscle damage while conducting one rep maximium.

So that means I should only mountain race hard twice a year...!

So it was a mistake to race Hillwood on Tuesday, Scarr on a Wednesday and Carrauntoohil on Sunday :P ya live and learn

Uphill and downhill article by John Harding on reading area in IMRA has an extensive section on eccentric contractions.

You should race on the hills once every 6 weeks to keep the strenght, to avoid these microscopic tears due to these type of contactions.

So if you race in the next 5 weeks you shouldnt experience anything like the muscular pain of your last race according to harding.

ocnoc

Interesting on his reference to orienteering... then you think about the orienteers that have turned their hand to Mountain Running and been good at it

PN, Enduro, Shea O'Boyle, Duirmuid Collins, Ger Butler, Niall McA, Niamh O'Boyle, Ciara Largy. Or if you want to go Old School, you have the likes of Aonghus O'C, Wally Young, Pat Farrell, Pat Healy (all CNOC members :P ), Colm Rothery . . . . . Its quiet a beastish list!

Perhaps hill runners should be checking out o.ie to get better

thepassanger

when i was in college in mayo we had to compete in a few orienteering events throughout the year, generally very competitive between our own college so we always tried very hard.
(put on your worst OH MY GOD VOICES for this)
then in my last year i saw a wacky :eek: event that ran up and down croagh patrick, it turned out to be one of those imra races.
(normal voice again)
since this i havent been orienteering but have been at a few hill races. im planning on going to scarr on 10th april in wicklow, maybe i shall meet up with a few of you boyos :cool: there.
p.s im not good at mountain running, but the orienteering and hill running are quite similar in my opinion

Slogger Jogger

Nice modesty Theo. If you're no good where does that leave the rest of us.

PositiveNegativ

ocnoc wrote: »

Interesting on his reference to orienteering... then you think about the orienteers that have turned their hand to Mountain Running and been good at it

PN, Enduro, Shea O'Boyle, Duirmuid Collins, Ger Butler, Niall McA, Niamh O'Boyle, Ciara Largy. Or if you want to go Old School, you have the likes of Aonghus O'C, Wally Young, Pat Farrell, Pat Healy (all CNOC members :P ), Colm Rothery . . . . . Its quiet a beastish list!

Perhaps hill runners should be checking out o.ie to get better

You forget yourself (and Robbie Bryson and Joan Flanagan)

I'm racking my brains but can't think of anyone making a successful move in the other direction. I'm sure there must be. Goes to show the demands of top level O.

It might be interesting to repeat that experiment done in Scandinavia years back. Take say the top 5 male and female O'er and hill runners. Run a hill race, time the gaps. Then have the hill runners follow (no map reading, just straight following) the Oer's as they navigate around a blue/brown course. See how many (if any) of them make it to the finish without losing sight of the O'er and being dropped. Or, not that I can talk, twisting/breaking an ankle.

I nominate ocnoc for starters.

ocnoc

PositiveNegativ wrote: »

I nominate ocnoc for starters.

Does this not imply that someone will have to beat me :P

I'm waiting for you Mr Furey.... I am waiting

Enduro

I'm racking my brains but can't think of anyone making a successful move in the other direction. I'm sure there must be. Goes to show the demands of top level O.

Depending on what way you count it, I would consider myself a hillrunner first. The only Nav events I had done before starting hillrunning were mountain marathons. But I did fluke my way to winning the orienteering Leinster League in 2001, a year or two after starting hillrunning.

PositiveNegativ

Enduro wrote: »

But I did fluke my way to winning the orienteering Leinster League in 2001

Sorry Enduro, LL doesn't count as high level orienteering.;)

ocnoc

High level been World Championships?
Marc Lauenstein (SUI)
World Mountain Running Champion
World Ranking (Orienteering)

His best result at WOC was 2nd in 2005 and 2006

The guys a monster. Not even close to the best orienteer on the SUI team... which is sick if you think about it.

Peterx

By the by..
Rene Borg is currently organising training benificial for Hill/Mountain runners.
See imra thread;
http://www.imra.ie/forum/topic/id/2504/

ocnoc

Gentlemen, gentlemen, gentlemen.
I have a problem.

The problem is 28km with the guts of 2500m of climb.
It is commonly refered to as death, or The Isle of Jura.

The ground looks like this, the description is here and the map is below.

My question is this, how they hell does one train to go sub 3:30 on this monster?!?!