p45 issue

needachance

i recently fell out with my employer over new work practices he wanted to implement, i felt it would be detrimental to the company he didnt. We decided it would be best if i left, however now i dont know how reliable he will be for a reference, should have sorted it before i left !!!! Is there any way to get his details removed from my p45 so my next employer wouldnt know who he was? The owner of a company i dealt withsaid he would give me a reference i could use for a new employer. Any ideas? I dont want to talk down a previous employer in an interview.

gerrycollins

A p45 is a legal document that you cannot interfere with sorry.

If you parted even after a fight I see no issue with your previous employer giving a reference purely based on your performance and attendance And ability to do the job which are the core elements of a reference

needachance

thank you, but i just dont trust him fully for a straight reference ! Could i not just send the p45 straight to the revenue if i do get a new job? I just dont want to be explaining how i left because i disagreed with work practices. Would the new employer stil b informed of who old employer was even if i did this? Many thanks for help again.

Eoin

By the time it gets to that situation, you'll be in a new job with a reference from someone else. Is it likely that they would check your P45 to find your old employer and ring for a reference, after you've started in the new job?

clouds

AFAIK you can get a form called a 12A to apply for new tax credits directly from revenue, without going through your new employer.

seamus

clouds wrote: »

AFAIK you can get a form called a 12A to apply for new tax credits directly from revenue, without going through your new employer.

Correct. I don't know if it's 12A, but you can get revenue to send out a statement to your new employer which is basically a balancing statement and tells you new employer how many tax credits you are due for the rest of the year without disclosing previous employment details.

Cgoodie

Check the revenue website because you send it directly to them with your new employer's details and they'll issue your new employer with the relevant tax details for you. It's usually done if you don't want your new employer knowing what your previous salary was.

But if you have the job and are giving them your P45 for payroll then they'll probably not notice the different name on the form.

lyverbird1

Is there somebody within the company that you were friendly with and would be willing to provide a reference in writing &/or verbally? I had a similar situation when I left a prior employment many years ago after a disagreement with the manager of the establishment and without question I knew that on a personal, petty level she would not provide me with a reference (she was later fired herself for embezzlement so at least I had that satisfaction).

However, I related very well to other managers and staff members and the main staff supervisor was more than happy for me to put her down as the contact person within the company if anyone needed a reference and even provided her personal phone number. Maybe you could do the same if it was a problem with one person in management as opposed to management as a whole? That would save a whole lot of hassle with that P45 and perhaps having to answer some awkward questions in interview...

needachance

will look in to the 12a form, thanks clouds. Unfortunately only one boss so this is my only option !

HarvestAnne

Hi there,
If you start with a new employer they will request your P45 but you don't have to supply it!
You can contact Revenue yourself and inform them that you have changed employment.

Give the Revenue the new employers Registration number (its 7 digits and one letter usually) and they will arrange to have your new tax certificate issued to the employer directly.

If you decide that you don't want any previous payment details for the year included on the Tax certificate you can inform Revenue of that too and they will issues your new tax certificate without those details but the tax cert will be on a "Week1/Month1" basis which means that it taxes you on the earnings for that period irrespective of previous periods like the normal way. After the end of the tax year you can apply to Revenue to have your tax re-calculated just in case there is any refund due - and there well could be!

milehip1

gerrycollins wrote: »

A p45 is a legal document that you cannot interfere with sorry.

If you parted even after a fight I see no issue with your previous employer giving a reference purely based on your performance and attendance And ability to do the job which are the core elements of a reference

Just to back this up,AFAIk an employer cannot badmouth an employee in a reference they can just fail to supply a glowing account of your time there.

I know of a chef who was asked to leave a hotel after threatening to punch the manager, his reference amounted to:

John doe has worked at the Ritz-Carlton for 12 months,thank you.

HarvestAnne

As I understand it, employers are not obliged to give a reference and many won't regardless of how the relationship was, so don't assume it means that the person was not well considered there.

If the employer does furnish a reference, he is obliged to supply an honest one. Therefore, if he has nothing good to say, he will probably just state that the employee worked there from this period to that period and their duties included whatever!

It's really hard to know - depends on company policy really!:(

seamus

milehip1 wrote: »

AFAIk an employer cannot badmouth an employee in a reference they can just fail to supply a glowing account of your time there.

Well....yes they can. There's nothing legally preventing an employer from saying something bad about an employee. There is no law that says, "Say something nice or say nothing at all".

The problem is that a poor reference is fraught with legal minefields. If the employer says something which cannot be backed up, such as, "John has a lazy attitude to work...but we never warned him about it", then they are leaving themselves open to a defamation action.
Data Protection also comes into play. A former employer could not reveal that the employee was continually taking sick leave because they have a child with a medical condition, for example. They could state something like, "He has a poor timekeeping record, for which he was reprimanded", provided they have documentation to back up such a statement.

But the whole thing is such a minefield that many employers have a policy of "no bad references". Some even go so far as to say that references must only be "He worked here from X to Y", and nothing more regardless of whether the employee was good or bad.

milehip1

seamus wrote: »

Well....yes they can. There's nothing legally preventing an employer from saying something bad about an employee. There is no law that says, "Say something nice or say nothing at all".

The problem is that a poor reference is fraught with legal minefields. If the employer says something which cannot be backed up, such as, "John has a lazy attitude to work...but we never warned him about it", then they are leaving themselves open to a defamation action.
Data Protection also comes into play. A former employer could not reveal that the employee was continually taking sick leave because they have a child with a medical condition, for example. They could state something like, "He has a poor timekeeping record, for which he was reprimanded", provided they have documentation to back up such a statement.

But the whole thing is such a minefield that many employers have a policy of "no bad references". Some even go so far as to say that references must only be "He worked here from X to Y", and nothing more regardless of whether the employee was good or bad.

nothing "legally" but a potential defamation action

ok so they "can" but "dont"
you say tomato.....

Eoin

milehip1 wrote: »

nothing "legally" but a potential defamation action

ok so they "can" but "dont"
you say tomato.....

It's a massive difference to saying they can't - it's not just a case of being pedantic. If they can back up their statements, then they can most definitely give a negative reference.

seamus

milehip1 wrote: »

ok so they "can" but "dont"
you say tomato.....

Well it does make quite a serious difference. Defamation actions are expensive. If it was expressly illegal for an employer to give a bad reference, it would be very easy to take action against one who did and have it settled and done with in a matter of weeks.

As it stands, if you discover that an employer is giving a bad reference, then you will have to take a civil suit. In Ireland if such a suit is not settled, you could be talking about this dragging on for years while you go broke paying ongoing solicitor's fees. Of course, if you're vindicated at the end you will get compensation but you won't get your time and sanity back.

Many smaller employers do give bad references. This is probably because they don't know about or don't understand defamation, or in some cases because they're aware that the employee is not going to go to the hassle of suing them.

So if someone is worried about a bad reference it's far from a given that the employer is unlikely to say anything bad about them, they would need to use their gut. In general large employers give more sterile references than smaller ones.

bog master

I am not familiar with ROS online generated P45's. However, if it is the hand written form, the only information about your previous employer is his PAYE Registered Number. I would assume the online filing is the same.

It is possible your new employer could ring Revenue with the registered number and ask the company name. Whether they would give it out without good reason,I dont know.

ilovefridays

Just get the new employers registered number, ring the revenue with your pps number , explain that you started a new job and give the employers number, Problem solved.

You do not have to hand in P45 to your new employer. My fella worked for a company last june, and they were taking the piss by not sending out his P45 they kept delaying it, cos he just walked out on them cos they were messing him about with hours and wages. So he rang the tax office about it, as he was getting emergency tax.

they said 'just give us your new employers number and we can sort it out' and it was, that was nearly a year ago and he still hasnt got his p45 from them, he doesnt need it now cos he sorted it out himself. Also, his new employer doesnt know that he worked for this previous place, because he left on bad terms he didnt put them on his CV

milehip1

Eoin wrote: »

It's a massive difference to saying they can't - it's not just a case of being pedantic. If they can back up their statements, then they can most definitely give a negative reference.

Well thanks for clearing up the no bad reference myth
I was only giving repeating what i was told and what seems to be a given among people not in the know,hence the "AFAIK" at the start of my first post.

Eoin

milehip1 wrote: »

Well thanks for clearing up the no bad reference myth
I was only giving repeating what i was told and what seems to be a given among people not in the know,hence the "AFAIK" at the start of my first post.

I know, but your second post was implying Seamus was being pedantic by saying that you can legally get a bad reference. Once they can back it up, then it's open season - but a lot of companies tread on the side of caution. Awkward silence when asked "would you hire this person again?" is often the best indication anyway.

And no, that's not based on personal experience