should I charge and if so how much?

positivenote

Hi all,
a well renouned Architect has seen some of my images that i shot of one of their buildings in a college broucher that I took specifically for the college free of charge. Out of the blue they have asked me can they publish it and if I have any more images of the building that is of the same quality could I send them to them for publishing aswell. They have said that they would only do so after gaining my permission and i would be fully credited for each images used also. Im just wondering would i be rude to seek financial compensation as im looking at the buildings they have designed since the 50's through to modern day and they wouldnt be short of a few quid. If I was, having never been comissioned to shoot images before, how would i brouch the subject and how much should I charge? I could also ask them what exactly they wanted of the building and they could maybe comission me to shoot specific images...
Im not sure what they would use them for and if they would be published internationally or just in Ireland.
any advice would be great
Thanks a million

smelltheglove

Im not sure how much you should charge but when you decide I would ask for that amount but also give them the chance to request specific parts to be photographed for an extra charge.

CabanSail

positivenote wrote: »

Hi all,
a well renouned Architect has seen some of my images that i shot of one of their buildings in a college broucher that I took specifically for the college free of charge. Out of the blue they have asked me can they publish it and if I have any more images of the building that is of the same quality could I send them to them for publishing aswell. They have said that they would only do so after gaining my permission and i would be fully credited for each images used also. Im just wondering would i be rude to seek financial compensation as im looking at the buildings they have designed since the 50's through to modern day and they wouldnt be short of a few quid. If I was, having never been comissioned to shoot images before, how would i brouch the subject and how much should I charge? I could also ask them what exactly they wanted of the building and they could maybe comission me to shoot specific images...
Im not sure what they would use them for and if they would be published internationally or just in Ireland.
any advice would be great
Thanks a million

I would get something for them. Like the advice here many times it depends on what rights they want and where they will be used. If you are reasonable for the existing images, then you may get some extra work from them. I would not give them away for free as they will be using them commercially.

When you do get the cheque you might be able to afford a new Keyboard, one that has a few more capital letters on it!

positivenote

ballpark figure that wouldn't be rude guys?
thanks again

positivenote

positivenote wrote: »

a million

Far too much. They'll never pay that!

Seriously though, I'd certainly charge. Unsure on prices myself, to be honest, so I can't help you there, but if they want your photos for a commercial venture, then request payment for them.


The only potential issue is, seen as you're not a pro, will they look for a VAT number or such for you, I wonder?

If they're a commercial agency, they may be pricks and try to bully you into giving the images for credit. (Not that I've heard of it happening, but if I were in your shoes, I'd be preparing for such an argument. What can go wrong; will go wrong, etc.).

dazftw

If the company is well known. I dont see why a few hundred(200 - 300) is too much to ask.

Im not really sure so dont take my advice 100% but if you value your work highly you'll look more professional.

Also you could ask on the side if they needed any of their other buildings shot.

Just my thoughts..

smelltheglove

Really couldnt say, Im sure more people will be on later or tomorrow who could advise you, I mean you really would want to find out the details to figure out the best price to as, i.e. what is the image to be used for, internet once off, book, advertising, pamphlet....... if they say advertising then you will want to ask for a higher amount and license for a certain type of advertising and a time period, say 1 yr license for inhouse advertising or 5 yrs for international advertising, you really need to know what it is for.

The closest I have come to it is a couple of big name musicians asking for my images, for me though one was asking for personal use and for the sake of the future connection for myself and for good musician friends of mine those images were given as a freebie, the second one was for internet blogging and was given watermarked again the connection to make and help good friends of mine was more important than a small sum of money. I have a feeling though that the connection here may not be of any use to you, once you give this guy a freebie he will always expect it or will be unlikely to contact you for work for decent money, tends to go that once you give a freebie it devalues your work so I would definitely recommend charging but the amount I could not say, at least not with more info on use.

smelltheglove

Deleted User wrote: »

The only potential issue is, seen as you're not a pro, will they look for a VAT number or such for you, I wonder?

VAT registration is only required after earning above a certain amount of profits.

smelltheglove

smelltheglove wrote: »

VAT registration is only required after earning above a certain amount of profits.

That's an interesting note... Anything official to back that up, by any chance?

smelltheglove

Certainly the information I received from my accountant.

Official site

http://www.revenue.ie/en/tax/vat/registration/index.html

Cameraman

Deleted User wrote: »

That's an interesting note... Anything official to back that up, by any chance?

It's actually turnover, not profits :

http://www.revenue.ie/en/tax/vat/registration/index.html#reg3


For the OPs question, you could look at : http://alamy.com/

Pick an image and check their pricing - that should give you some ideas (I would guess that these could probably be regarded as the upper limits for someone doing it non-commercially). You would probably be looking at rights-managed rather than royalty-free.

smelltheglove

Cameraman wrote: »

It's actually turnover, not profits :

http://www.revenue.ie/en/tax/vat/registration/index.html#reg3

Thanks for the correction Cameraman. Im not up with the whole accounting thing.

So I can do as I please, so long as I don't receive €37,500 in a 12 month period?

Haha. I'd be doing well to get €37.50!

Damokc

smelltheglove wrote: »

Certainly the information I received from my accountant.

Official site

http://www.revenue.ie/en/tax/vat/registration/index.html

So once your making less than €37,500 your dont have to register to pay tax?

smelltheglove

Deleted User wrote: »

So I can do as I please, so long as I don't receive €37,500 in a 12 month period?

Haha. I'd be doing well to get €37.50!

No you cant do as you please, you still have to do your tax returns, VAT is not the tax you pay on your earnings. You can earn outside of your employment and declare it by doing an end of year tax return or like many of us who work at it set up as a sole trader but you do not have to register for VAT until you earn over a certain amount, now you can register for vat under that amount but it just complicates things more.

Hugh_C

Damokc wrote: »

So once your making less than €37,500 your dont have to register to pay tax?

No, once your revenue is less than €37,500 you don't have to register for VAT.

Oh... meh... It sounds too complicated, now.

No wonder the 'black market' thrives so much.

EDIT: Would I be right in saying that you're also allowed to earn, to a certain point, tax-free?

smelltheglove

Deleted User wrote: »

Oh... meh... It sounds too complicated, now.

No wonder the 'black market' thrives so much.

It is complicated, thats why accountants earn so much, tax returns are a huge stress for me but hey it has to be done.

Anyway I know its off topic conversation but I just wanted to ensure the op didnt stress about getting in trouble with the tax man.

edit reply, as far as I am aware yes you can but you still need to do a tax return, correct me anyone if I am wrong.

positivenote

thanks guys, im due to get back to them today... so if anyone else has any advice about costing or approach to take id appreciate it.

PCPhoto

As regards the original situation......they want your images - they are not offering money but offering you credit for publishing them.

(Is this correct?)

As a result of this question from them you think they might be interested in commissioning you to photo other buildings they designed in a similar style ?

(Is this correct?)

I don't want to burst your bubble but its possible they are asking for permission simply to print it - and don't want to offer you any money - just because they have designed other buildings does not mean they are willing to spend their money.

If I was in a similar position I would say they can purchase a licence to print the image from my website (which is not active...keep changing my mind with ideas on it) ..... but like another poster said - upload it to a site like alamy or flickr (and let Getty manage your image) ... you may not get all the money but the architects will be dealing with a professional company and you get some bit of money.

Ballyman

They are a commercial entity so they have money. You put time and effort into producing the pics so you need to get paid. It's that simple.

Send them an email requesting what they want the images for. I'm going to presume it's for an advertising brochure of some description.
Find out what size picture relative to the page size (1/8 page pic, 1/2 page pic etc.) Find out what the print run is going to be (<10K copies etc.), how long do they want to use the picture for and what territories it will be used in (Ireland etc.)

Then go to Alamy and enter all the details they game you and subtract 20% from the final price Alamy gives you.

You can also give them the image as royalty free and this is priced on the size of the file they request - again go to Alamy and check it out - less 20%

Business' in the main will pay, complain first mind you but still pay. Individuals however are different, for me 100% of individuals have never replied when I sent them the price

Do not give the pics away for free expecting them to give you more work. You will not get any paid work from them if you do this. Do not accept a credit either. This is absolutely worthless. Tesco/your local bar do not accept picture credits. Trust me on this, I still have a few credits lying around at home from a few years back
Nobody notices a credit. Nobody.

Send them an email this morning looking for all the requested info. They will have it to hand as if they are a business then they will have done all this before for brochures.

Best of luck. If you have any questions PM me and I can give you a call.

PopeBuckfastXVI

I don't know how much you *should* charge, but I wouldn't worry about them not paying anything.

If they don't pay anything, you were never going to get anything out of it, if they don't pay you now, they will never pay you for anything.

As said, what worth is a credit?

So the question is, if you ask them for money, and they say 'let's just forget the whole idea' how would you feel about it?

Will23

positivenote wrote: »

Hi all,
a well renouned Architect has seen some of my images that i shot of one of their buildings in a college broucher that I took specifically for the college free of charge. Out of the blue they have asked me can they publish it and if I have any more images of the building that is of the same quality could I send them to them for publishing aswell. They have said that they would only do so after gaining my permission and i would be fully credited for each images used also. Im just wondering would i be rude to seek financial compensation as im looking at the buildings they have designed since the 50's through to modern day and they wouldnt be short of a few quid. If I was, having never been comissioned to shoot images before, how would i brouch the subject and how much should I charge? I could also ask them what exactly they wanted of the building and they could maybe comission me to shoot specific images...
Im not sure what they would use them for and if they would be published internationally or just in Ireland.
any advice would be great
Thanks a million

Firstly, you should definitely charge them!

Speaking as an architect, we would not give away our design work for free, so you should not give your art away for free either. They will most certainly understand this, especially if they are as renowned as you say (i could probably guess who they are from the posts above!!:))

With regard to how much, have a look at Ross Kavanagh's or Philip Lauterabach's websites, or maybe contact them for some advice? it's always worth a shot, they are both very nice guys and i have found them more than willing to help with queries.

obviously these guys are pro's so you may have to temper the figures slightly. Times are really tough for architects right now, and cash is tight, (who aint in that situation right now though eh!?) they probably wont be willing to part with lots of cash for one image.

thats my tuppence anyway. hope it works out for you!

Will.

positivenote

thanks all,
i got in touch asking for info on how they wanted to use the images and mentioned that 'we come to an appropriate arrangement' for
usage of any of the images that i could forward to them... they replied without mentioning any offer of payment but said they where 'to submit the project to the magazine Architecture Ireland, which is produced by the RIAI, we will also submit the project for the RIAI awards' and that as yet they had no other plans for the image... they also asked for the images to be sent to them as 300dpi jpegs so they could "review them".
as i say they seem to have ignored my sugestion at 'come to an appropriate arrangement for usage of any of the images that i could forward to you' so just to throw it back to you guys what does anyone sugest my next step should be? or will i just send them on the images as its only really to document the work that they have done as a competition entry?
thanks again

Now, I'm not a big city Lawyer (though I do play one on TV), but it seems to me that they're intenionally dodging the question.

If I were you, I'd send on the images, saying something to the effect of "we can come to an agreement on their usage before they're used" (make sure you cover that you haven't sorted eveything yet) and then just hope that they use them anyway (which they probably will).

Then, after they've used them, simply send them along an invoice, with an additional charge added on for using them without your permission/copyright theft/whatever sounds better.

smelltheglove

Sending them on 300ppi is most likely going to give them a nice large image to preview, large enough for them to submit..... Now not saying they would go ahead anyway BUT you never know. I cant recall but does flickr allow you to upload an image that large where they can preview it without being able to download maybe? Or send it on with a watermark?

I would never intentionally send anyone a full size image for preview tbh.

dinneenp

€50 a photo. €100 maybe? You've made money that you didn't expect so I suppose how much would you be happy with.
Could always ask him What do you think is reasonable for X amount of photos?
He could sy higher that you're thinking.

Fajitas!

In my opinion...

If the magazine were looking for the photographs to be taken, if you were asked to take the photographs by the architect, if there was a charge/commission mentioned from the off, then yes, there would be money involved.

The architects have obviously found and liked your photographs. At this stage, no, they're most likely not looking to pay you for the photographs. They would have mentioned it from the start if they were. They're not getting paid for the article, so accounts won't be too happy to be shelling out money when there's no real return. If it was for marketing material, it would be a very different situation, where a budget would be put aside.

If you wanted your photographs published, you liked the idea of the architects liking and using your images to represent their design, then go for it. You've already taken the photos, you won't be losing any time over it. Send it in for free, don't mention money again, just make sure they're aware they are using the photos for this publication, and this publication alone, and if they want to discuss using it commercially, you can discuss rates.

Be courteous, be professional and get everything in in good time, you'd never know when they do need a commission. I wouldn't bother stirring things by continuously asking for money, it'll come across petty, and they're just as likely to say "Actually, no, it's grand, thanks" and they'll get someone in the office to walk down and grab some snaps that may be nowhere near as good as yours. Or just find someone on Flickr with similar images and ask them.

Don't start watermarking the images or sending in incredibly low resolution files (especially in an attempt to get money for the high res. or unwatermarked images), just provide them with your name and website so you can be credited. If you've already discussed giving them the images, don't go down the route of uploading to a stock agency, and then sending them to that to buy. You can do it for future reference, but I'd see it as playing cheeky buggers if you did it now.

There's a couple of hundred moral argument circles this can go around in. If you want to ask them for money, go for it. If you're really unsure and you do want to get money out of this, ring them up and ask if there is a budget for these images. If they say no, then say no.

Heh. You'll look like a right chancer if you ring up asking what budget they have for the photos, they say "none" and you say "ah ok, doesn't matter, stick them in anyways". IMO of course.

Will23

Fajitas! wrote: »

They're not getting paid for the article, so accounts won't be too happy to be shelling out money when there's no real return. If it was for marketing material, it would be a very different situation, where a budget would be put aside.

From experience, you are correct they are not getting paid for the article, but there is significant publicity when you are published in AI. a lot of professionals and clients would receive the magazine, so indirectly it could be argued that you do get paid in the end!

The RIAI awards (along with the AAI awards) are the two major awards in the industry in Ireland and are a big deal.

Most medium/large architecture firms (probably not architects working on their own) would pay a professional photographer for imagse for the AI magazine and RIAI awards (we get shots taken of most buildings we complete before handover to the client for future publicity etc)

Fajitas! wrote: »

they're just as likely to say "Actually, no, it's grand, thanks" and they'll get someone in the office to walk down and grab some snaps that may be nowhere near as good as yours. Or just find someone on Flickr with similar images and ask them.

This would never happen!, they are putting the image in a professional trade magazine and for a professional award. Firms will not send just anyone down to get some 'snaps' for this or download from flicker!

What usually happens with professional photographers is they are engaged to do a shoot on the building, they might take 80-100 photos or more, these are uploaded to their website for viewing and selection, with a watermark. About 20-30 would be purchased for an agreed fee per photo, costs and expenses would be agreed as a fixed fee separate to this, and the purchaser can use the image as many times as they like!

so send them the 300dpi images with a watermark, and send them a cost per photo that your are happy with!

see how it works out, they may ring you andhagle.

alternatively, and this is the key question, are you willing to part with the photos for free, on the basis that your name will appear in AI and you may get some more commissions out of it from other architects (the magazine is sent out to all registered architects and RIAI members when published, so they will all read/see it)?

hope this helps!

Will.

Fajitas!

Will23 wrote: »

This would never happen!, they are putting the image in a professional trade magazine and for a professional award. Firms will not send just anyone down to get some 'snaps' for this or download from flicker!

On the contrary, yes they will.

I've a friend with a basic interest in photography, working in the architecture in the UK. He's often done it. I know several people on Flickr who have been contacted about their photographs of buildings and if they can be used for XY or Z reason. And I never said "download from Flickr", I said ask someone else on Flickr. And I just picked Flickr as the first example that came to mind, if could be any image hosting website.

(we get shots taken of most buildings we complete before handover to the client for future publicity etc)

What usually happens with professional photographers is they are engaged to do a shoot on the building, they might take 80-100 photos or more, these are uploaded to their website for viewing and selection, with a watermark. About 20-30 would be purchased for an agreed fee per photo, costs and expenses would be agreed as a fixed fee separate to this, and the purchaser can use the image as many times as they like!

That is a completely seperate issue though. That is a commission, why those images are not being used in this case, who knows. These photographs have already been taken. The firm or architect might prefer the OP's, but if they're going to have to pay out money again, they might just go with the default, hence me asking if the OP would be happy if they were printed and credit given.

If you want money, ring them and talk to them. If you're only willing to do it for money, then say that. I really wouldn't start sending off watermarked images and expect them to say "how much". It's a different story if a photographer is hired to photograph the building. But that would be my personal practice, YMMV.

Borderfox

I did a job this morning, three pictures for 6 months gym membership. Company had no budget for the shoot but we were able to come to this agreement

PCPhoto

Will23 wrote: »

From experience, you are correct they are not getting paid for the article, but there is significant publicity when you are published in AI. a lot of professionals and clients would receive the magazine, so indirectly it could be argued that you do get paid in the end!

So are you saying that photographers (amateur or pro) should give images to magazines/newspapers for free because you will get "credit" and could get clients from their image being in the magazine/newspaper.

Most of us here have heard this mantra a thousand times before, if the architects firm want they image to submit it on their behalf why dont they pay for usage of the image, if they feel it has a strong chance of being published.

Will23 wrote: »

What usually happens with professional photographers is they are engaged to do a shoot on the building, they might take 80-100 photos or more, these are uploaded to their website for viewing and selection, with a watermark. About 20-30 would be purchased for an agreed fee per photo, costs and expenses would be agreed as a fixed fee separate to this, and the purchaser can use the image as many times as they like!

so send them the 300dpi images with a watermark, and send them a cost per photo that your are happy with!

They have already asked for 1 image or a selection of images of a particular building, why send them watermarked images and a cost per photo..... they have avoided the question of payment saying they want to send it to a magazine and enter it in a competition.

Will23 wrote: »

alternatively, and this is the key question, are you willing to part with the photos for free, on the basis that your name will appear in AI and you may get some more commissions out of it from other architects (the magazine is sent out to all registered architects and RIAI members when published, so they will all read/see it)?

hope this helps!

Will.

Again - its always a tough decision for a photographer (usually those starting off) ... do I give my work away for free in exchange for "exposure".

Can you answer this question: if the OP sends the image to the magazine - will they print it ? ....my guess ...probably not !!

Will23

PCPhoto wrote: »

So are you saying that photographers (amateur or pro) should give images to magazines/newspapers for free because you will get "credit" and could get clients from their image being in the magazine/newspaper.

sorry mate, i phrased that incorrectly, by that i meant the architect gets paid in the end, not the photographer! in my view the OP should be paid for his work, that is without doubt.

PCPhoto wrote: »

Most of us here have heard this mantra a thousand times before, if the architects firm want they image to submit it on their behalf why dont they pay for usage of the image, if they feel it has a strong chance of being published.

i fully agree with this!

PCPhoto wrote: »

They have already asked for 1 image or a selection of images of a particular building, why send them watermarked images and a cost per photo..... they have avoided the question of payment saying they want to send it to a magazine and enter it in a competition.

In my opinion the image should be accompanied with a note or cover letter stating that payment will be required for both the image itself and use of it for publicity.

PCPhoto wrote: »

Again - its always a tough decision for a photographer (usually those starting off) ... do I give my work away for free in exchange for "exposure".

Can you answer this question: if the OP sends the image to the magazine - will they print it ? ....my guess ...probably not !!

from my experience with this magazine, the architects have been invited to submit the building for publishing based on the building type (i.e. they may be focusing on school/health etc, or whatever the building type is, in the next issue). the firm will send in drawings, photos and text and it is most likely, due to the invite, that the building will be published in some form. However you are correct there is no guarantees that the OP's photos will be published, that is down to the editor.

with the awards, the firm choses the images to submit!

just to clarify, I do not think the images should be given away for free, and i would expect that most architects would not expect them for free. (although i freely admit that i may be naive in my thinking that!)

Will

positivenote

just to come back on this guys,
i sent the fella small copies of the images watermarked and said he could browse to images and let me know which ones he wanted to use... i could then send him on the higher resolution copies of the photos and 'we could come to an agreement regarding the publishing wrights of the images'

we'll see how it goes.

Fajitas!

I hope you spelt 'rights' correctly in the email anyways.