Dublin Bus vs The Election

liger

I have been looking over the manifestos for the upcoming election and it appears to me that Dublin Bus ( and other public transport ) may have a fight on its hands to stay alive.

Fine Gael:

http://www.finegael.ie/upload/docs/Manifesto.pdf

Nationwide Bus Competition: We will completely overhaul the bus market in Ireland by introducing
competitive tendering for all bus routes in the country as soon as practicably possible. More operators will
provide more routes and services to the public and at a cheaper cost to the taxpayer and passenger.

So if they get in its bye bye DB, Private companies only want the profitable routes like the 46a or 145. I dont think they'll be interested in the local routes that take 10 or 20 people to the local shopping centres or dart station.

Fianna Fail:

http://fail.3cdn.net/9bab6b928c527f3728_60am6gzlc.pdf


While they dont mention any particular plans for DB they have the following

Spending on public investment projects increased substantially between 1997 and
2008. This investment has transformed the quality of our national road network,
our public transport system, and our education and health infrastructure as well as
our national sport and cultural facilities.
Capital spending will be progressively reduced over the period of the Plan but
the level of investment still compares favourably internationally.

Transport
• Completing the Metro North project.
• Finishing the Dart interconnector.
• Making public transport more accessible

Making public transport more accessible. This coming from the crowd that has overseen the reduction of nearly half the fleet of buses from DB and BE and allowing the current network direct system to make a mess of whats left.

Sinn Fein:

http://www.sinnfein.ie/files/SF_GeneralElectionManifesto2011.pdf

Increase investment in public transport at affordable prices. Reject privatisation. More frequent services linking rural areas to urban centres. Introduce smaller vehicles for rural communities and a demand-responsive dial-up transit system.

Plain and simple from the Shinners, Reject privatisation. Clearly they wont be the main party in power but if they pull off a Green party Jnr party thing they might have some say on the matter.

Labour:

http://www.labour.ie/download/pdf/labour_election_manifesto_2011.pdf

Labour is committed to concept of public enterprise, and is determined
to ensure that semi-state companies play a full role in the recovery of the
Irish economy.

Bus services will continue to be the most cost effective and most flexible
way of delivering public transport both in cities and in rural areas.
Investment in public transport will focus on the further development
of Quality Bus Networks, and Park and Ride facilities. Labour will also
explore the development of the Bus Rapid Transit model in our cities,
which can replicate the speed and comfort of light rail at a fraction of
the cost.

So perharps short term DB would be safe. Clearly they are correct about the cost of new routes for buses in comparison to metro/luas and the speed that it can do done.

Greens:

http://vote.greenparty.ie/downloads/manifesto.pdf

Prioritise investment in public,not private, transport

Reorganise a Capital Investment programme around the Smarter Travel Policy, recognising that Transport 21 has been based on
undeliverable economic growth projections.

Prioritise investment in public transport over roads by a ratio of 3:1.

Work to introduce a form of road pricing scheme and ring fence its revenues for cheaper public transport and to maintain the road network.

Progressively enhance the role of the National Transport Authority to encompass decision-making power over agencies such as the NRA, the RPA and CIE.

Pilot a flat fee local public transport with the gradual introduction of integrated ticketing; for example €2 for 2 hours. Tickets will be
transferable between different modes.

Buses

Increase subvention to Dublin Bus and Bus Éireann to enable cheaper public transport fares through revenues from road pricing.

Prioritise the rapid rollout of Real Time Passenger Information (RTPI) to over 500 bus stops in Dublin, having such information available on SMS and the Internet throughout the country. We will extend this RTPI service to bus stops in towns and cities in the country.

Continue the reform of the Dublin Bus Network, following on from the successful phases of Network Direct.

So the Greens would like to keep public transport public. It all reads very nicely but when you consider that they were part of the government that reduced the subventions in the first place can we trust them??

Also they talk about rolling out the RTPI system, this is already in the process of being rolled out, displays are being put up and websites tested. Do they thik people havnt noticed this?? there are many threads on this issue here.

I never thought i'd read the words Network Direct and succesful in the same sentance, leave it to a politician!!!! It shows that they are way out of touch with the average joe on the street. Already highlighted by the lenght of time they kept this government in power.

I wasnt able to find anything published fron the United left alliance

schemingbohemia

Funny how Fianna Fail's election manifesto mentions finishing the DART Underground whilst in Government they ruled out funding the construction of it in the four year plan.

liger

There are a lot of empty promises in all the manifestos. the greens and FF musts think the people of ireland are goldfish.

dowlingm

I would have thought that any new government would go for an easier change like ripping Cork/Limerick/Galway/Waterford city services out of the dead hand of BE, not to mention abolishing the national school bus programme in favour of VEC-awarded tenders.

If I was doing it, that's how I would do it rather than making a massive change in Dublin which would create a backlash before the first private bus turned a wheel.

Most importantly I would have these operators solely as operators, not ticketing agents - the NTA should run ticketing and create "plug-in" structures where Aircoach, BE Expressway, IE etc. could sign an agreement so that a person in Galway could buy a ticket on the intercity operator's website with home-Ceannt-Colbert-destination fare built in similar to the add-on fares available between Heuston and Dublin City Centre.

mgmt

liger wrote: »

I have been looking over the manifestos for the upcoming election and it appears to me that Dublin Bus ( and other public transport ) may have a fight on its hands to stay alive.

I can't wait for a privatised bus market in Dublin. Maybe then we will get a quality service we deserve. Look at what the private sector did to the intercity bus service, WiFi, toilets, pre-booked seats, lower fairs, far nicer buses...

So if they get in its bye bye DB, Private companies only want the profitable routes like the 46a or 145. I dont think they'll be interested in the local routes that take 10 or 20 people to the local shopping centres or dart station.

I currently take a private local bus service in my area (D15), UrBus. It goes to the local train station, college, shopping centre etc. It has a much better timetable than Dublin Bus and better customer relations http://www.urbus.ie/live-position.html
Cheaper too.

Oliver1985

:eek:People think Fine Gael are gonna be great and open back up new rail lines left right and centre.
Fine Gael will be the complete death of all public transport!!
Just wait and see a disaster waiting to happen:eek::eek::mad:

mgmt

Oliver1985 wrote: »

:eek:People think Fine Gael are gonna be great and open back up new rail lines left right and centre.
Fine Gael will be the complete death of all public transport!!
Just wait and see a disaster waiting to happen:eek::eek::mad:

Explain your comment please.

Fine Gael are going to audit the crazy WRC based on a independent CBA i.e. they will scrap it:)

In fact Edna Kenny favours a greenway.

Sulmac

liger wrote: »

So if they get in its bye bye DB, Private companies only want the profitable routes like the 46a or 145. I dont think they'll be interested in the local routes that take 10 or 20 people to the local shopping centres or dart station.

I don't think you fully understand what Fine Gael mean by 'competitive tendering'. They want to 'bundle' a certain number of profitable and unprofitable routes (say around 10 in each 'bundle') and let private companies compete for it. The company has to run all the routes and maintain the same standards (such as punctuality) in order to keep the contract going. This is how it works in London.

Here's their policy document on it.

How Competitive Tendering Will Work:

1. Fine Gael’s new Irish Transport Authority (ITA) will define public transport needs, the routes and services required and to benchmark the level of public service subsidy required to operate these routes.

2. The ITA at the outset will invite tenders for the provision of these defined services for bundles of routes or for a geographic area (in order for operators to service profitable and PSO supported routes). Both CIE companies and private operators would be open to tender for routes in the first instance.

3. As planned, winning operators will sign a 5 year contract with the ITA to set out service standards such as frequency, cost, reliability and cleanliness. A potential 2 year performance related extension will be available to operators.

Oliver1985

:eek::eek::eek:

mgmt wrote: »

Explain your comment please.

Fine Gael are going to audit the crazy WRC based on a independent CBA i.e. they will scrap it:)

In fact Edna Kenny favours a greenway.

Thats what im saying to you Son, People think Fine Gael will open up lines and be a big improvement but you will see W.r.c gone,south of greystones gone!!! Limerick commuter routes!!
Kennys ideas are stupid :eek::eek::eek:

dowlingm

Any evidence that Kenny liked greenways before the Newport one was a success? I'm in favour of evidence based policy but don't want to award prescience if he only joined the bandwagon.

As for "they'll only want the money routes" this has been explained over and over and over. You award bundles, not individual routes - if it's done right, everything comes out in the wash.

Trampas

public transport will always run at a lost.

Urbus might be good but where is the bus after 7pm on a saturday/sunday or 8.30 on weekday from castleknock?

Once an hour during the day

These are the times when public transport make a lost but private ops wont run a better service than public

mgmt

Trampas wrote: »

public transport will always run at a lost.

Urbus might be good but where is the bus after 7pm on a saturday/sunday or 8.30 on weekday from castleknock?

Once an hour during the day

These are the times when public transport make a lost but private ops wont run a better service than public

It is a local bus service, after 8.30pm the shops are closed, airport checkin closed, college closed, business park closed... Once an hour is the best Dublin Bus could do with their local bus service in the area.

EricPraline

Trampas wrote: »

Urbus might be good but where is the bus after 7pm on a saturday/sunday or 8.30 on weekday from castleknock?

Once an hour during the day

The same thing applies to Dublin Bus routes that poorly support many suburban Dublin areas within 6-8kms of the city centre. In fact, the network direct shambles seems mainly intended to discontinue streamline those kind of routes.

Click to Confirm

Sulmac wrote: »

I don't think you fully understand what Fine Gael mean by 'competitive tendering'. They want to 'bundle' a certain number of profitable and unprofitable routes (say around 10 in each 'bundle') and let private companies compete for it. The company has to run all the routes and maintain the same standards (such as punctuality) in order to keep the contract going. This is how it works in London.

Here's their policy document on it.

there manifesto launched last tuesday is different:http://www.finegael.ie/upload/docs/Manifesto.pdf

Michael Noonan was on radio 1 news on tuesday, he gave an example that a private company will run the bus service from ennis to limerick without a subsidy, the presenter said surely people will then have to pay higher fares, michael noonan replied "thats the world we now live in", that the bus companies will have to cover costs and make a profit without a subsidy, as they plan to reduce the total public transport subsidy by a €100 million !!!!!
http://www.rte.ie/podcasts/2011/pc/pod-v-15021125m50snewsatonea-pid0-1550448.mp3
its about 18 minutes into the interview,
thats not competition thats just ravishing bus services outside of densely populated areas or routes that dont pass a hospital, college etc etc

where can i get a cheap japanese imported car, we're going back to the 90's

antoinolachtnai

How much is the fare now from Ennis to Limerick?

AlekSmart

Click to Confirm wrote: »

there manifesto launched last tuesday is different:http://www.finegael.ie/upload/docs/Manifesto.pdf




where can i get a cheap japanese imported car, we're going back to the 90's

Ah,but there`s the rub,you won`t be able to get a cheap Japanese car because the SIMI and Government won`t allow you.

This they achieve by imposing and ever more spurious set of "Environmental" restrictions on "Old" cars as they attempt to sit you into something new,shiny...and bought with borrowed money.

just look at what the new Taxi Directorate regulations are doing to the Taxi trade......spotless pre 2002 Mercedes saloons being forcibly retired whilst all, manner of dubious smaller saloons with a fresher plate are encouraged....total unjustifiable interferrence by a Regulatory Authority absolutely incapable of performing the more important aspects of their remit.

Take a ramble around Dublins City Centre tonight and witness at every CC Taxi Rank the total inability of the Taxi Regulatory system to perform it`s task.

Under the Old Garda Carriage Office regieme this sort of dangerous muppetry would have never been allowed to begin in the first place.

Vic_08

dowlingm wrote: »

As for "they'll only want the money routes" this has been explained over and over and over. You award bundles, not individual routes - if it's done right, everything comes out in the wash.

And what are the chances of it being done right? A proper integrated network of franchised services requires money and strong oversight based on unbiased planning not political favours and cronyism, the first is all gone and the latter has never been a part of Irish public life, something I see no sign of suddenly changing.

Reading the above pile of crap from Noonan pretty much confirms that.

mgmt

Vic_08 wrote: »

And what are the chances of it being done right? A proper integrated network of franchised services requires money and strong oversight based on unbiased planning not political favours and cronyism, the first is all gone and the latter has never been a part of Irish public life, something I see no sign of suddenly changing.

Reading the above pile of crap from Noonan pretty much confirms that.

So your fine with the status quo of unions calling the shots in Dublin Bus and we're left with a rubbish overpriced bus service. As I've shown private bus operators already do a better service in Dublin in the limited routes they operate.

Cool Mo D

mgmt wrote: »

So your fine with the status quo of unions calling the shots in Dublin Bus and we're left with a rubbish overpriced bus service. As I've shown private bus operators already do a better service in Dublin in the limited routes they operate.

How is an hourly bus service that costs over 5 euro to go from Swords to Castleknock (and has an even more complicated fare scheme than Dublin Bus), runs once an hour, and stops running three hours earlier than Dublin bus an improved service?

Sounds to me like a warning of what Dublin Bus could be if it was badly privatised.

mgmt

Cool Mo D wrote: »

How is an hourly bus service that costs over 5 euro to go from Swords to Castleknock (and has an even more complicated fare scheme than Dublin Bus), runs once an hour, and stops running three hours earlier than Dublin bus an improved service?

Sounds to me like a warning of what Dublin Bus could be if it was badly privatised.

Any public transport service to a national airport has a premium fare.

Cool Mo D

mgmt wrote: »

Any public transport service to a national airport has a premium fare.

No they don't. Express services like the 747 and Aircoach can justify it. Urbus is a local bus, like the 16a, or 41, which are half the price for twice (or more) the distance.

The urbus is most like the dublin bus 102, which also serves suburbs on the northside, and the airport, but is cheaper and more frequent.

mgmt

Cool Mo D wrote: »

No they don't. Express services like the 747 and Aircoach can justify it. Urbus is a local bus, like the 16a, or 41, which are half the price for twice (or more) the distance.

The urbus is most like the dublin bus 102, which also serves suburbs on the northside, and the airport, but is cheaper and more frequent.

If you use urbus locally you pay local fares, if you go to the airport you pay a premium.

Click to Confirm

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

How much is the fare now from Ennis to Limerick?

http://www.busfare.co.uk/cgi-bin/Eireann.isa/EXEC
9.00 : Adult Single
14.50 : Adult Rtn
14.00 : Adult Day Rtn
6.40 : Child Single
10.80 : Child Return
9.00 : Child Day Rtn
7.50 : Student Single
11.00 : Student Rtn
14.00 : Adult MW Rtn
9.00 : Child MW Rtn
31.00 : Family Rtn
41.00 : Adult 10 Jny
30.00 : Student 10 Jny
28.00 : Child 10 J

liger

mgmt wrote: »

So your fine with the status quo of unions calling the shots in Dublin Bus

The unions in DB handed over their power a year or so ago when the cuts started to be made. If they were calling the shots do you think the network direct thing would have come in?? No. Nbru and Siptu are just a token figures now pretending to represent workers in DB.

meanmachine3

mgmt wrote: »

It is a local bus service, after 8.30pm the shops are closed, airport checkin closed, college closed, business park closed... Once an hour is the best Dublin Bus could do with their local bus service in the area.

mgmt i'm glad to see that you noticed they're both local services but thats where the similarities end. now when u say a local bus service i presume your referring to the 37 bus service.
urbus ( private operator) 17 trips mon-fri from castleknock.
D.B. (semi state operator) 56 trips mon-fri from castleknock
urbus ( private operator) 10 trips sat & sun from castleknock
D.B. (semi state operator) avg 36 trips sat & sun from castleknock

mgmt wrote: »

It is a local bus service, after 8.30pm the shops are closed, airport checkin closed, college closed, business park closed... .

last ur-bus from castlekock mon-fri is 20.30. what about the people out after those hours ,be it the cinema, or any of the good restauranrs in the S.C.

mgmt wrote: »

Once an hour is the best Dublin Bus could do with their local bus service in the area.

i honestly dont know where you got those figures from. 20 mins at peak time and 30 mins off peak. now i know for a fact that about 95% of those buses run as per timetable. last bus from castleknock to C.C. mon-fri is 23.45.
the people in castleknock are screaming for a proper bus service i.e. the 37 to go upto the S.C. and they cant get that because of competition. it's a strange world where the private operator wants to run their services in competition with D.B. but will have non of it when D.B. wants to run a proper bus service that serves the public upto the S.C.:rolleyes:
mgmt you seem to be in favor of competition and the same goes for everyone that in favor of privatising D.B. , why dont you ask some of the private operators that post here if they would operate a loss making route?
and what would the consequences be if that route continued to loose money?

mgmt wrote: »

So your fine with the status quo of unions calling the shots in Dublin Bus and we're left with a rubbish overpriced bus service.

when was the last offical industrial action that was sanctioned by the unions taken by bus drivers?
unions are not worth a **** in D.B.
just case you dont know this, the privates in the u.k. are screaming for extra subvention.

antoinolachtnai

Dublin Bus is paid under its contract to run services that have a farebox shortfall. The payment is legally required to be sufficient to allow DB to make a fair profit.

As a result, Dublin Bus has no loss making routes. It has routes which have a shortfall, but that is a very different thing.

Click to Confirm

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

Dublin Bus is paid under its contract to run services that have a farebox shortfall. The payment is legally required to be sufficient to allow DB to make a fair profit.

As a result, Dublin Bus has no loss making routes. It has routes which have a shortfall, but that is a very different thing.

Click to Confirm wrote: »

to quote Michael Noonan, under Fine Gael bus companies will have to cover costs and make a profit from the fares collected - without a subsidy, http://www.rte.ie/podcasts/2011/pc/pod-v-15021125m50snewsatonea-pid0-1550448.mp3
michael noonan - "thats the world we now live in"

according to Michael Noonan bus companies will have to "cover costs and make a profit" from the farebox.
so the DB contract to run services with a farebox shortfall will not be renewed.
looks like reduced peak time only timetables and very expensive bus fares are on the way

antoinolachtnai

Loads of Dublin Bus routes do make a surplus.

According to Dublin Bus, peak time is the most unprofitable time for them and requires the most subsidy.

meanmachine3

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

Loads of Dublin Bus routes do make a surplus. .

unfortunately antoinolachtnai those days are well and truely gone. hence the major changes D.B. are in the process of making.

antoinolachtnai

I would be extremely surprised if the 46A and the 4 do not make a surplus, for instance. They have pretty good load factors from what I can see.

mgmt

meanmachine3 wrote: »

mgmt i'm glad to see that you noticed they're both local services but thats where the similarities end. now when u say a local bus service i presume your referring to the 37 bus service.
urbus ( private operator) 17 trips mon-fri from castleknock.
D.B. (semi state operator) 56 trips mon-fri from castleknock
urbus ( private operator) 10 trips sat & sun from castleknock
D.B. (semi state operator) avg 36 trips sat & sun from castleknock

last ur-bus from castlekock mon-fri is 20.30. what about the people out after those hours ,be it the cinema, or any of the good restauranrs in the S.C.

No I'm not referring to the 37. I was referring to the local bus services around D15, i.e. 237, 239 etc. The 37 ends in a housing estate in the middle of Blanchardstown. It does not go to Blanch IT, Blach SC, Business Parks etc. The 37 is a commuter route servicing the estates into city centre.