So, the Leaders Debate (II) is Over, who won

RachaelVO

So who do you think, between the 5 leaders won. They were all a bit reticent, but I can't decide who I think did better. What does everyone else think? and Why?

TouchingVirus

I think we should stick to the one thread anyways

Dont be at yourself

Can we add a poll?

I wouldn't be inclined to give the Greens a preference, but I thought Gormley spoke very well.

nesf

Gormley did I think but it doesn't matter the Greens will be decimated at the polls. Of the others I think Enda did best but suffered from coming across far too scripted, Martin did well enough but FF are too hated for him to make much headway, Gilmore did poorly I thought after a fairly good start and a good performance on the housing/mortgage question and Adams just played the populist card too much talking too much about what the problems are and giving too little time to what his solutions would be.

Eliot Rosewater

My cat. Kenny's voice soothed her into a lovely slumber.


In all seriousness, I don't buy into this notion that debates are "won", nor do I think debates should be held to be won.

/narkiness

Morag

Why is this in parenting?

Johnny_the_fox

NekkidBibleMan wrote: »

Can we add a poll?

I wouldn't be inclined to give the Greens a preference, but I thought Gormley spoke very well.

Gormley was surprisingly good.

nesf

Sharrow wrote: »

Why is this in parenting?

It was very briefly put in Parenting by me so I could add a poll to the thread. I then moved the thread back into the General Election forum.

Unfortunately moving a thread out of the Politics category and back in again is the only way I can add a poll to a thread.

nesf

NekkidBibleMan wrote: »

Can we add a poll?

Yup, this is worthy of a poll I think.

Eliot Rosewater

nesf wrote: »

It was very briefly put in Parenting by me so I could add a poll to the thread. I then moved the thread back into the General Election forum.

You neglected to put in the options "The Irish People", "Irish Politics" and "Vincent Browne". :P

TouchingVirus

Sharrow wrote: »

Why is this in parenting?

It isn't. At least my first reply was in Politics 2 mins after the thread was made.

For what it's worth:

Gormley gave a strong performance but I still think it's too little too late - where was this performance for the last 3+ years? This critical thinking?

Enda was fantastic at sticking to the script, determined not to muck it up this time but he suffered for it.

Adams has some points, but too bad they're going to be outshined by the fact that most of it was populist fluff.

Martin got slaughtered a bit and suffered by the fact there were 4 other speakers and didn't seem to get enough time.

Gilmore was weak, not the weakest but definitely weak. I don't think he'll make a good Taoiseach anyways.

There was no clear winner, I agree with Eliot, I don't think this debate was there to be won

RachaelVO

Eliot Rosewater wrote: »

My cat. Kenny's voice soothed her into a lovely slumber.


In all seriousness, I don't buy into this notion that debates are "won", nor do I think debates should be held to be won.

/narkiness

I disagree! Someone has to be able to win a discussion, and show, in this instance who will represent the country on the international stage, and who can ensure that in negotiations (whether EU/IMF or otherwise), can hold their own!

nesf

TouchingVirus wrote: »

It isn't. At least my first reply was in Politics 2 mins after the thread was made.

It was in Parenting for a few minutes while I added a poll to the thread. That was when the poster posted.

Morag

nesf wrote: »

It was very briefly put in Parenting by me so I could add a poll to the thread. I then moved the thread back into the General Election forum.

Unfortunately moving a thread out of the Politics category and back in again is the only way I can add a poll to a thread.

Werid, I tought I was seeing things when it moved again

Headshot

Gormley came across pretty well, seemed to me anyway that he said it like it is

Joan Burton put me off voting for Labour but after this debate (I shouldnt call it a debate because it was awful) I might change my mind

Also thought Kenny did a grand job to, he looking relaxed and in control

johngalway

Thought Enda done well, despite all the haters having their voodoo dolls out for him tonight.

wicklowwitch

Enda Kenny was much better than any one thought he would, he was a clear winner.

CoalBucket

If was a bit of a joke tbh. Are we looking for a good debater or a leader. The leader is only as strong as their policies not a performance on a tv show.

I don't think anybody will be voting on the strength of these debates. If they are I fear for the country.

If people want the country to progress out of the situation we are in they should look at the parties policies and vote accordingly.

_Whimsical_

Headshot wrote: »

Gormley came across pretty well, seemed to me anyway that he said it like it is
l

Agree. I felt he came across as one of the few willing to put the country first. I was surprised to like him as he hadn't really impressed me before.

I thought Enda was good but very much benefited from the low expectations and the 5 speaker format. No one got to tackle him in depth.

I thought Micheal Martin was the best debater.

Sponge Bob

This was there to lose rather than win, on a sliding scale.

Gilmore lost most, no targets hit. target selection crap.
Martin lost second most , too many targets to select and his target selection was erratic. He will do much better on TG4 with fewer targets to fire at.
Adams lost third most, but did a lot better than his utterly awful performance in 2007, won no floating votes and lost no votes to Labour
Gormley did surprisingly well on all issues ...but too late for him and he voted for a lot of this crap iin government.
Kenny did very well because the spin doctors expected him to be drab and flat and he wasn't as bad as expected.

So Kenny wins by not losing as much as expected and Nobody WON so I refuse to vote

loldog

If debates actually meant anything, Al Gore would have been President.

.

Headshot

loldog wrote: »

If debates actually meant anything, Al Gore would have been President.

.

super serial

ilovesleep

Pat Kenny won

CoalBucket wrote: »

If was a bit of a joke tbh. Are we looking for a good debater or a leader. The leader is only as strong as their policies not a performance on a tv show.

I don't think anybody will be voting on the strength of these debates. If they are I fear for the country.

If people want the country to progress out of the situation we are in they should look at the parties policies and vote accordingly.

Except for FF policies since they have failed to implement past policies and fcuked up the country while they were at it.

Headshot

Can I ask one of the 13 people who voted for FF, what the **** are you thinking

All he did during the show was bash adams

Mr.Micro

Headshot wrote: »

Can I ask one of the 13 people who voted for FF, what the **** are you thinking

All he did during the show was bash adams

Martin has FA credibility and getting at Adams was because he is afraid FF will finish in fifth place.

Blush_01

CoalBucket wrote: »

If was a bit of a joke tbh. Are we looking for a good debater or a leader. The leader is only as strong as their policies not a performance on a tv show.

I disagree completely with this statement.

Any leader of a large organisation has to be a good communicator. They might personally have absolutely brutal policies, but that's what they have advisors and committees for - to advise them, make the decisions and let them present the conclusions.

We need a figurehead. We need a strong leader, who will portray Ireland as a nation fighting to right things, rather than lying down and taking it. That leader need not be the person doing the fighting, but both nationally and internationally that person needs to be seen to be someone who can get things done.

It would be different if we were contemplating electing an independent as Taoiseach - in that case the individual's policies and methods would be vitally important public knowledge. In Irish party politics, however, the party line is what matters. The party policies are not made by the leaders, they are simply enforced by them. Perhaps enforced is the wrong word, but it gets my point across.

I haven't see the debate yet - no tv, but I look forward to actually seeing it, because running commentary from friends on FB would have me believe that Martin and Adams came across better than expected tonight, but Gilmore got lost in the flow of things.

Headshot

Mr.Micro wrote: »

Martin has FA credibility and getting at Adams was because he is afraid FF will finish in fifth place.

I said the same thing in another thread

Its sad to see 14 people voting for him anway, you have to think should these people be allowed to vote

flash1080

CoalBucket wrote: »

If was a bit of a joke tbh. Are we looking for a good debater or a leader. The leader is only as strong as their policies not a performance on a tv show.

I don't think anybody will be voting on the strength of these debates. If they are I fear for the country.

If people want the country to progress out of the situation we are in they should look at the parties policies and vote accordingly.

+1. In relation to FG & Labours plans for the health service, will they be fully implemented within the lifetime of the next government or within ten years? Or never? How are they planning on getting the money?

Sibylla

I think Enda Kenny did the best job. Gilmore probably damaged his chances of gaining some undecieded votes. It's impossiblto listen to Martin and Gormley with an open mind after what they have done to the country. I can see FG gaining a majority vote.

I thought Gilmore came across well, as did Kenny. On balance, as kenny had most to lose if he messed up and his pedigree is less than fantastic in terms of communicating with any kind of passion, he probably came out of it best overall.

I had to laugh at Adams making policy promises that he knows he'll never have to keep to the low paid, disenfranchised man in the street. He'll never be in power, and he knows it. His strategy is to just steal as many votes from the major parties as possible. Martin knew it too, and was trying his best to sabotage him at every turn.

nesf

Headshot wrote: »

I said the same thing in another thread

Its sad to see 14 people voting for him anway, you have to think should these people be allowed to vote

It's perfectly possible for someone to think Martin won the vote while not having any intention to give a vote to FF you know.

RTE should be sold off - they said Martin won LOL

Headshot

nesf wrote: »

It's perfectly possible for someone to think Martin won the vote while not having any intention to give a vote to FF you know.

that's true but I thought this thread was about who won the over all debate. He just won or lost his mini battle

SmurfX

Seems a lot of agendas are going on here in the voting. It'd hard to be unbiased and not accept Gormley "won" this and by some margin. He was the most direct in answering the actual questions, took the fewest unnecessary swipes at the opposition, gave informative details on his policies and was generally gentlemanly and polite when dealing with other candidates.

Beyond belief how anyone could vote for anyone else in the context of this poll.

pauldry

John Gormley - good honest opinions and spoke in peoples language 9/10

Eamon Gilmore - Put some good points across at times but tends to shout a bit and say THe Labour Party in Gov-R Mnt would a lot 7/10

Enda Kenny - A times couldnt get his point across and kept repeating his 5 point plan but at least as he said his party have a plan. 8/10

Michael Martin - Thought was doing very well until he lost the cool with Gerry 7.5/10

Gerry Adams - Again like John spoke in laymans language but I thought he was getting a bit lecture like at the end 8/10

Points very generous I know and I would probably put Gerry slightly ahead of Enda but I think the 3 main parties all pretty much cancelled each other out.

nesf

Headshot wrote: »

that's true but I thought this thread was about who won the over all debate. He just won or lost his mini battle

Sorry, I misposted, should have read "won the debate" not "won the vote."

ilovesleep

SmurfX wrote: »

Seems a lot of agendas are going on here in the voting. It'd hard to be unbiased and not accept Gormley "won" this and by some margin. He was the most direct in answering the actual questions, took the fewest unnecessary swipes at the opposition, gave informative details on his policies and was generally gentlemanly and polite when dealing with other candidates.

Beyond belief how anyone could vote for anyone else in the context of this poll.

+1 to this.

PeterIanStaker

Inda "won" in the sense that his head didnt explode.

pauldry

The only true poll will be on 25th February. Debates are claptrap Rip Van Winkle style as Eamon would say

dharn

enda kenny did very well

the groutch

can we add the MILF from cork in the audience to that poll?

Birdnuts

Deleted User wrote: »

RTE should be sold off - they said Martin won LOL

Yep - I'm against privitisation but I'd sell FF TV in the morning:mad:

1)Much as it pains me Kenny probably just came out ahead for the very fact that he didn't have any major screwups - a measure of how low the bar is set for him

2)Adams much better then 07' and connected well with the small man

3)Gormley spoke well, pity he didn't do the business in government

4)Gilmore - another worryingly poor performance, needs to kick ass in the next one

5) Martin: Nausiating as usual and his attack on Admans shows what a dirty hypocritical shower FF are!!

nkay1985

The only way this will be judged is relative to expectations.

Expectations of Kenny were very low given the over-riding public opinion of his oratory skills. He put in a fairly solid performance, without any major errors. That's all he had to do. He wasn't amazing or anything and did sound a little scripted but that's way better than 2007 and lots of other media performances.

The other side of that coin is Gilmore. He's built a reputation over the past few years as a good public speaker. His performance tonight was below par for him. Couple that with the reaction from the first debate and I think these debates will have put a serious dent in Labour's campaign.

Martin did ok. He got pulled up almost every time by Kenny, Gilmore and Adams when he tried to suggest reforms and changes that were essential with them countering that he's been in power for so long but only now are these reforms needed. Very difficult for him to excel with that happening. Also thought he didn't gain a whole lot from continually trying to bash Adams. Once the point was made, he should have left it at that IMO and gone after FG.

Expectations of Adams were quite low after 2007 so tonight has to be judged positively. He started very well and was even ok past the hlafway point but repeating the same stock phrases wasn't a good idea. He spoke forcefully at some points and played the "rise above the shouting and roaring" card which was good. Overall, he didn't set the world alight but relative to expectations he did ok and won't have done serious damage.

The biggest winner on the night for me was Gormley. I can't remember him making and obvious mistakes and he spoke well every time he was called upon. Didn't engage in any arguing and pushed the Green agenda which nobody else was touching. Managed to escape any attacks, probably due to the fact that they're most likely already down at their core percentage so there's no votes to be had by going after him. Got an easy ride because of that and was able to play his own game. He was the winner in my opinion.

I think it worked out like this in terms of who gained and lost the most from it:
1) Gormley
2) Kenny
T3) Adams and Martin
5) Gilmore

spiralism

Enda was clearly the winner imo. He dealt with it brilliantly, looked relaxed and assured and slipped into the background a bit at times, letting the other parties go at each other, all the while calmly and effectively dealing with the questions asked him.

Imo he actually had the look of Taoiseach-elect tonight

Adams wasn't too bad, he's clearly got a bit to learn still about politics down here but he was far better than a few years ago and gave the impression of connecting with the "man on the street", so to speak. While his figures clearly do not add up, SF are not going to be in Government so the point is moot. Could be quite effective in opposition once he gets more of a handle on southern politics

Gormley came across pretty well but it all seemed pretty inconsequential tbh, everyone knows they're facing near if not total obliteration in the polls

Gilmore was worryingly shaky, the pressure of being the party leader with the most to lose in any of the debates has started to get to him it would seem

Martin did well considering the position FF are in but the attack on Adams not only went a bit far, it made him look a bit desperate to score points imo. His terrier approach to the debates is understandable given that he's essentially backed into a corner but a FF leader vigorously attacking other parties' policies when theirs are responsible for the mess we find ourselves in is a tad hypocritical imo

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Duckworth_Luas

Why are Fianna Fáil allowed to partake in the remaining leaders debates? In the past the main debates were always between the two biggest parties, with the minor party leaders excluded. We only have two credible candidates for Taoiseach, Kenny and Gilmore. Surely FF should be excluded the way Labour were in the past. Martin's performance tonight showed that we're not going to miss any insightful political analysis anyway.

nialldabass

Duckworth_Luas wrote: »

Why are Fianna Fáil allowed to partake in the remaining leaders debates? In the past the main debates were always between the two biggest parties, with the minor party leaders excluded. We only have two credible candidates for Taoiseach, Kenny and Gilmore. Surely FF should be excluded the way Labour were in the past. Martin's performance tonight showed that we're not going to miss any insightful political analysis anyway.

Take alook at the poll above, don't you mean Kenny and Adams?:P

Wolfe Tone

Gormly won I think(although is that just because he was so surprising when compared to his usual fare?), Adams a close second in my mind.

Duckworth_Luas

nialldabass wrote: »

Take alook at the poll above, don't you mean Kenny and Adams?:P

To be fair, according to all the polls, Adams has as much right to be there as Martin. MM is a total charlatan.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Rubik.

Who you think won or lost is very subjective, you are more likely to look favourably on the person whose party you're more inclined to support. I thought Gilmore did fine, the majority here seem to disagree, but I was always going to vote for labour - so maybe I was blinkered.