Training Contract Pay

Jamie-b

Do law firms still have to pay trainees? I thought the minimum pay guidelines were legally binding? I was contacted by someone who said they will take on a trainee unpaid.
If this is the case now I may as well give up on this as I am an adult and do not have a rich family to support me for the next few years.

crystalmice

Training contracts are not covered by normal minimum wage laws, however the law society does require a minimum payment but it really is a buyers market at the moment so it is not unheard of for training contracts to be offered unpaid though it isnt strictly kosher. You could accept and then seek to enforce the payment, but the firm may well drop you and the law society are notoriously unhelpful in this regard and will do little if anything to get the firm to pay you.

Also, a firm is only required to pay your wages during PPC1 if you started working in the firm prior to starting PPC1, so if thats all they mean then they are not acting contrary to the Law societry guidelines at all provided they pay you when in office and on PPC2.

I dont really understand what you mean by 'I am an adult', everyone in Blackhall is an adult and plenty of people do it every year with little or no wages, part time work is very possible as it is in college for anyone without 'rich parents'. Getting a TC at all is diffcult and though an unpaid one is not ideal plenty of people would give their right arm for one. Think carefully before turning it down.

Jamie-b

I dont really understand what you mean by 'I am an adult', everyone in Blackhall is an adult and plenty of people do it every year with little or no wages, part time work is very possible as it is in college for anyone without 'rich parents'.

Apologies I didn't mean to suggest no one else has the same concerns, but I am a number of years out of college, am totally self- sufficient and if it is the case I could only get an unpaid TC there is no way I could do it. I cannot rely on my parents - I couln't even contemplate it, it';s just not an option. I literally cannot live, pay my bills and save enough to pay BH fees and enough to live on for the PPC1. I have been factoring in paying BH fees myself and I was just shocked to realise this pay situation appears to have all changed- I'm sure I remember reading here once that a person should not accept a TC unpaid as it is not legal.

johnfás

Jamie-b wrote: »

Apologies I didn't mean to suggest no one else has the same concerns, but I am a number of years out of college, am totally self- sufficient and if it is the case I could only get an unpaid TC there is no way I could do it. I cannot rely on my parents - I couln't even contemplate it, it';s just not an option. I literally cannot live, pay my bills and save enough to pay BH fees and enough to live on for the PPC1. I have been factoring in paying BH fees myself and I was just shocked to realise this pay situation appears to have all changed- I'm sure I remember reading here once that a person should not accept a TC unpaid as it is not legal.

It does breach the Law Society rules not to pay a trainee. However, as stated above, the quagmire is that if somebody complains they are not going to get a job and there are plenty of others who will put up their hand and take the job for free. It certainly is not equitable but that is the unfortunate reality which most people face. For all the problems that I would have with trade unions (and their role in this country) this is one of the situations where objectively a trade union would be beneficial for those involved. None exists.

Jamie-b

It does breach the Law Society rules not to pay a trainee. However, as stated above, the quagmire is that if somebody complains they are not going to get a job and there are plenty of others who will put up their hand and take the job for free. It certainly is not equitable but that is the unfortunate reality which most people face. For all the problems that I would have with trade unions (and their role in this country) this is one of the situations where objectively a trade union would be beneficial for those involved. None exists.

Thanks for the reply. So the rules have not changed? They used to have the pay on the website but it seems to have been removed.

To clarify I have not been offered a job or TC, just someone got in contact regarding an old application that the trainee pulled out of. It was the was case that they had a spot but could not pay you for it. I am not going to pursue it - but it gave me a shock as I thought maybe the whole system was changed recently so that this was the only way to train now and therefore, since I cannot afford it, I would need to give up, or save like mad for years and hope to get a TC before my FE1s expire. I'll keep looking anyway!

johnfás

crystalmice wrote: »

Training contracts are not covered by normal minimum wage laws...

They are actually. The statutory minimum wage applies to training contracts but not until you enter the office if you go straight onto PPC1. There is no sectoral opt out from the national minimum wage and it cannot be contracted out from unless an employer pleads an inability to pay - no employer has done this in Ireland to date - or it has not come before the courts at least.

Jamie-b wrote: »

Thanks for the reply. So the rules have not changed? They used to have the pay on the website but it seems to have been removed.

To clarify I have not been offered a job or TC, just someone got in contact regarding an old application that the trainee pulled out of. It was the was case that they had a spot but could not pay you for it. I am not going to pursue it - but it gave me a shock as I thought maybe the whole system was changed recently so that this was the only way to train now and therefore, since I cannot afford it, I would need to give up, or save like mad for years and hope to get a TC before my FE1s expire. I'll keep looking anyway!

The Law Society minimum pay rates have been abolished. However, the statory minimum wage applies. That said, as has been stressed above, this does not mean that all trainees are being paid minimum wage. It would require somebody to report an underpayment in order for that to come out.

nimrodsson

How damn annoying it is to have a long reply written, and then to click submit, and for the website to incorrectly tell you that you are not logged in, and lose your reply in the process... anyway, second time...

Yes, as mentioned, the Law Society removed their own minimum wage stipulations for minimum wage, so it fell back to national law (as has been said).

However, some time ago, i check with NERA whether someone can voluntarily give their time for no payment, and the answer they gave me is 'yes'. I went to great lengths to explain exactly this situation, and the answer was still yes. While a solicitor cannot pay you 4 euro per hour (illegal as below the minimum), but a potential trainee could voluntarily give their time without any compensation. I had an in dept conversation with one of their advisors about it - and i covered every eventuality, and the answer was still yes. While i could never in a million years of afforded this scenario, i was getting very desperate at the time (literally years were ticking by) and so i wanted to look into every possible way (even if it was to rule it out). If you think about it, it would be quite a restriction on ones freedom if you couldn't do what you wanted with your time. They did say that it would be wise to have a written agreement with the other party (solicitor or whoever) that you wanted to work for work experience sake (grant it, for a prolonged period of time!)

My experience though is that most solicitors are very reluctant to go this route as most are not up to date with what the actual situation with minimum wage as it applies to trainees/the law society - and are not willing to be seen to be doing anything so exploitative

bath handle

A lot of solicitors are not even making the minimum wage out of practice themselves. Hi can they be expected to pay it to a trainee?

dats_right

bath handle wrote: »

A lot of solicitors are not even making the minimum wage out of practice themselves. Hi can they be expected to pay it to a trainee?

It's simple really, much like any other business expense, if you can't afford it you can't have it. A landlord wouldn't give a firm free use of a premises, or the Council wouldn't waive commercal rates just because a firm couldn't afford them. If a firm wants a trainee they must pay them.

It is professional misconduct for a solicitor to employee an apprentice and pay them less than the minimum wage. In my view, notwithstanding any financial difficiculties a firm may be experiencing, for a firm to take advantage of those so desperate to qualify that they are willing to work for free is totally unacceptable and unprofessional.

crystalmice

johnfás wrote: »

They are actually. The statutory minimum wage applies to training contracts but not until you enter the office if you go straight onto PPC1. There is no sectoral opt out from the national minimum wage and it cannot be contracted out from unless an employer pleads an inability to pay - no employer has done this in Ireland to date - or it has not come before the courts at least.

Thanks for the correction, I was under the (mistaken) impression that training contracts were considered apprenticeships, which have different rules around minimum payment afaik.

maidhc

dats_right wrote: »

It is professional misconduct for a solicitor to employee an apprentice and pay them less than the minimum wage. In my view, notwithstanding any financial difficiculties a firm may be experiencing, for a firm to take advantage of those so desperate to qualify that they are willing to work for free is totally unacceptable and unprofessional.

I don't know. It is a supply and demand issue. Trainees want training contracts but law firms don't want trainees, often at any price. A secretary can be got for minimum wage, so why pay a trainee the same who will often be less useful in a small firm.

A trainee on the other hand wants a training, and if it means working for free to get it they are glad of it.

johnfás

maidhc wrote: »

I don't know. It is a supply and demand issue. Trainees want training contracts but law firms don't want trainees, often at any price. A secretary can be got for minimum wage, so why pay a trainee the same who will often be less useful in a small firm.

A trainee on the other hand wants a training, and if it means working for free to get it they are glad of it.

It is not really a simple supply and demand issue. To argue it quite as crudely as that pays no respect to regulatory theory. We have working time laws which state that employers cannot force employees to work above a certain number of hours without a break. Why not ignore this as well if there are (which there are) poor unfortunate people who cannot get a job and would be prepared to work long shifts with no break. We enforce laws on issues such as minimum wage rates, working time laws and health and safety requirements precisely because "supply and demand" does not provide the outcome which is generally considered most beneficial to society.

maidhc

johnfás wrote: »

It is not really a simple supply and demand issue. To argue it quite as crudely as that pays no respect to regulatory theory. We have working time laws which state that employers cannot force employees to work above a certain number of hours without a break. Why not ignore this as well if there are (which there are) poor unfortunate people who cannot get a job and would be prepared to work long shifts with no break. We enforce laws on issues such as minimum wage rates, working time laws and health and safety requirements precisely because "supply and demand" does not provide the outcome which is generally considered most beneficial to society.

Point taken, but similarly history (and law) has long accepted that different factors come into play where a person is learning a trade as opposed to merely working to earn a crust.

johnfás

Well I think its is inevitable that people will work for free in the current climate, it is clear that they are doing. I have friends on training contracts that pay them nothing and cost them in terms of Blackhall fees. It goes unreported because they are people who are desperate and in most cases one hopes that they are the ones who can afford to do it.

However, it does not make it equitable (or indeed legal) and it is most unfortunate that there are probably people pursuing that path who in reality cannot afford to do it. It is also unfortunate that the stumbling block for them is not their ability but their underlying wealth.

I also really query the standard of training provided by a firm which takes on mostly young people and does not value them sufficiently to pay them for the hours that they work on behalf of the firm. Unfortunately in many instances the best chance in the long term for people facing this situation is probably to try and get out of here and work in another country.

bath handle

There are landlords allowing firms free use of premises as the alternative is to leave them empty exposing the landlord to security expenses and rates. There are local authorities doing deals on rates. A solicitor cannot be expected to take money he needs to educate and feed his children and give it to an apprentice who will vomit up most of it in temple Bar at the weekend. After doing that for a few years they set up across the road and try and rob the rest of the business.

32minutes

bath handle wrote: »

There are landlords allowing firms free use of premises as the alternative is to leave them empty exposing the landlord to security expenses and rates. There are local authorities doing deals on rates. A solicitor cannot be expected to take money he needs to educate and feed his children and give it to an apprentice who will vomit up most of it in temple Bar at the weekend. After doing that for a few years they set up across the road and try and rob the rest of the business.

Well as long as we're discussing a very important issue with an open and objective mind in relation to young people trying to enter a professional job market during an enormously difficult time in our history after already putting a large amount of time and effort to get to that point...

I mean how dare those potential trainee scum come along and mug the altruistic solicitors who are acting completely ethically ?

johnfás

bath handle wrote: »

There are landlords allowing firms free use of premises as the alternative is to leave them empty exposing the landlord to security expenses and rates. There are local authorities doing deals on rates. A solicitor cannot be expected to take money he needs to educate and feed his children and give it to an apprentice who will vomit up most of it in temple Bar at the weekend. After doing that for a few years they set up across the road and try and rob the rest of the business.

Except for the fact that above you are writing about a business to business transaction where in law each party is considered to have an equal bargaining power. Whereas on this thread we are writing about employment law issues, which similar to consumer law and landlord and tenant law provide certain protections for the weaker party to a transaction. So you aren't really comparing like with like.

That is why discussion about "pure markets" (which don't exist in any case) are not that applicable. Your logic, or lack of, above can also be applied to any employment situation - why would any business owner pay any employee.

Jamie-b

bath handle wrote: »

There are landlords allowing firms free use of premises as the alternative is to leave them empty exposing the landlord to security expenses and rates. There are local authorities doing deals on rates. A solicitor cannot be expected to take money he needs to educate and feed his children and give it to an apprentice who will vomit up most of it in temple Bar at the weekend. After doing that for a few years they set up across the road and try and rob the rest of the business.

This is what I meant when I said "I am an adult". Being paid for a training contract would not be a bonus I would drink or fritter away and rely on my parents to sort out the rest - I actually have to live: eat, pay bills. I would find it hard enough on the new minimum wage which I figured I'd get if I got a TC; with no pay I just couldnt do it

bath handle

In my day the apprentice had to pay his master for the training position. No wage was paid. It was the same for devils at the bar.

maidhc

johnfás wrote: »

That is why discussion about "pure markets" (which don't exist in any case) are not that applicable. Your logic, or lack of, above can also be applied to any employment situation - why would any business owner pay any employee.

You are assuming trainees are a valuable commodity to a solicitor. At the moment this is not the case. The big law firms pay, but they need photocopying monkeys and are in a better position to nurture new talent for their ranks. Local Solicitor & Co want neither the help nor the hassle of a trainee and can't afford extra staff, but if one is there free it becoomes more a case of "shur what harm will they do" and they get taken on.

But take it from me, plenty solicitors are on far less than the minimum wage themselves at the moment.

johnfás

maidhc wrote: »

You are assuming trainees are a valuable commodity to a solicitor. At the moment this is not the case. The big law firms pay, but they need photocopying monkeys and are in a better position to nurture new talent for their ranks. Local Solicitor & Co want neither the help nor the hassle of a trainee and can't afford extra staff, but if one is there free it becoomes more a case of "shur what harm will they do" and they get taken on.

But take it from me, plenty solicitors are on far less than the minimum wage themselves at the moment.

I don't disagree that plenty of solicitors are on less than the minimum wage. However, so are plenty of people in loads of industries so the point is no different simply because the employer is a solicitor. There are shop owners, accountants, estate agents, car dealers and so on all who are taking home less than the minimum wage because of their particular business predicament but all are in law required to pay their staff the minimum wage.

chopser

Jamie-b wrote: »

This is what I meant when I said "I am an adult".

Yes Jamie-b we get it, you are an adult and no one else who goes into Blackhall is.

blueythebear

bath handle wrote: »

In my day the apprentice had to pay his master for the training position. No wage was paid. It was the same for devils at the bar.

Obviously things were different at that time. I would say that's definitely not feasible now for most of the population.

For a person to not earn any wage for the duration of the apprenticeship (over two years) and to be expected to shell out the €15,000 for the PPC Courses as well, having (most likely) just finished college and paid out whatever it is for the FE-1s would be pretty unfair. This type of attitude echoes what is often perceived of the legal profession, that it is elitist and snobbish.

Add to this the fact that you're expected to work extra hours at random times also precludes part time work for alot of people.

I can't blame those apprentices who accept TCs at no pay, given the scarcity of Training Contracts. The onus is on training solicitors to be fair and for the Law Society to properly police this practise.

I'd personally be seeking an alternative apprenticeship if I was forced to accept one unpaid and I wouldn't be too bothered if my leaving suddenly put my nonpaying training under pressure. It's voluntary work so you can withdraw it at any time if a paid traineeship comes up.

nimrodsson

bath handle wrote: »

A solicitor cannot be expected to take money he needs to educate and feed his children and give it to an apprentice who will vomit up most of it in temple Bar at the weekend. After doing that for a few years they set up across the road and try and rob the rest of the business.

There is no expectation. Competition is a good thing. The 'vomiting' comment - while i don't think i belong to the age group i assume you intended it for - is a pretty crass, embittered and offensive generalisation if i may so. No need for it really.

Jamie-b

chopser wrote: »

Yes Jamie-b we get it, you are an adult and no one else who goes into Blackhall is.

That's not what I meant. I'm sure there are people who will take training contracts unpaid as their parents will pay BH and feed and clothe them for 2+ years. I do not have that option.

In my day the apprentice had to pay his master for the training position. No wage was paid. It was the same for devils at the bar.

This is likely where elistism in the legal profession comes from - if your family have money you can qualify, if not, you can't.

bath handle

It is a preparation for the fact that there would be little in the way of earnings when qualified. Law is after all a vocation, not a job.

maidhc

johnfás wrote: »

I don't disagree that plenty of solicitors are on less than the minimum wage. However, so are plenty of people in loads of industries so the point is no different simply because the employer is a solicitor. There are shop owners, accountants, estate agents, car dealers and so on all who are taking home less than the minimum wage because of their particular business predicament but all are in law required to pay their staff the minimum wage.

But my point is things are different because a the trainee is getting an appreticeship, not a "job".

nuac

Agree with Maidhc on this. In the average firm the income is not there.

evercloserunion

bath handle wrote: »

In my day the apprentice had to pay his master for the training position. No wage was paid. It was the same for devils at the bar.

And we had to walk seven miles through the snow, in our bare feet.

234

evercloserunion wrote: »

And we had to walk seven miles through the snow, in our bare feet.

And we still didn't get a master!


Reminds me of the Four Yorkshiremen.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xe1a1wHxTyo

galwaybetty

Hey there, Im new to the discussion and the boards in general so forgive me if Im breaking any rules! I just went finished the PPC1 course. About a week before my exams my training solicitor told me that she wouldnt be able to pay me at all. At this stage of the game i decided to go ahead with the apprenticeship, Im not prepared to defer it for any longer. I spoke to the Training Department in the Law School and they said that they could I report my training solicitor to the Educational Committee, but frankly I saw little benefit in that.

I know that there were a few others in Blackhall who had gone through the ppc1 on the understanding that their training would be unpaid, and that they have managed to secure paid secondments since then. I'm applying to as many as I can myself, Ive had two interviews so far but no luck yet!

I think I know what Jamie B means by expecting to be paid 'as an adult', at the moment Im living off a combination of Social Welfare and whatever hours i get working Saturdays in a retail outlet and not being financially independent is pretty humiliating......but I want to be a solicitor more than I value my pride so Im gonna keep going!

Theres no doubt that if you are Dublin based, and have financial support you have a massive advantage, and does feel very unfair at times. However, thats the luck of the draw, and I cant blame those individuals for using it to their advantage.

I feel i should correct this impression that Trainees are all living on their parents and vomiting up their wages in Temple Bar. Everyone I met on the PPC1 took the course seriously and had made sacrifices to get there. My training Solicitor couldnt afford to pay me, due to a downturn in conveyancing, and I believe she would if she could. Its my choice to work unpaid, and I take responsibility for that.

Is anyone else trying to find secondments and succeeding?

RATM

Simple solution maybe? Do the training period for free. Then when you've qualified as a solicitor take a case against your training solicitor for underpayment / non-payment of your 20 months wages + your Blackhall fees. Assuming that no contract was signed at the beginning stating that you are a volunteer then I'd imagine you'll be winning your first case hands down as your training solicitor won't want to be seen dragged before the Rights Commissioner in full view of his peers.

And if he does want to go the whole way then you'll get an industry rep for being a tough cookie and not one to be messed with. You'll still win your case and also send out a very loud message to others in the industry trying to exploit free labour. Win-win.

blueythebear

RATM wrote: »

Simple solution maybe? Do the training period for free. Then when you've qualified as a solicitor take a case against your training solicitor for underpayment / non-payment of your 20 months wages + your Blackhall fees. Assuming that no contract was signed at the beginning stating that you are a volunteer then I'd imagine you'll be winning your first case hands down as your training solicitor won't want to be seen dragged before the Rights Commissioner in full view of his peers.

And if he does want to go the whole way then you'll get an industry rep for being a tough cookie and not one to be messed with. You'll still win your case and also send out a very loud message to others in the industry trying to exploit free labour. Win-win.

That's great in theory but I can't see how th OP could do this. First off, he/she has accepted not being paid. The only way to make a point on something like this is to claim constructive dismissal due to non-payment of wages or claim under the payment of wages legislation. OP would have to leave the apprenticeship now to do so. Waiting until the end of the apprenticeship would entail the matter being thrown out for delay.

The reputation the OP would not be as a tough cookie, more likely, a troublemaker and somebody who lacks loyalty to their employer. Also, kiss your reference from your training solicitor goodbye.

Unfortunately, the fact is that the Law Society is not going to listen to the OP if he/she complains. They simply don't care about trainees, as long as they get Blackhall fees. OP is doing the right thing, seeking a secondment or alternative apprenticeship with someone who will pay them.

RATM

blueythebear wrote: »

That's great in theory but I can't see how th OP could do this. First off, he/she has accepted not being paid. The only way to make a point on something like this is to claim constructive dismissal due to non-payment of wages or claim under the payment of wages legislation. OP would have to leave the apprenticeship now to do so. Waiting until the end of the apprenticeship would entail the matter being thrown out for delay.

The reputation the OP would not be as a tough cookie, more likely, a troublemaker and somebody who lacks loyalty to their employer. Also, kiss your reference from your training solicitor goodbye.

Unfortunately, the fact is that the Law Society is not going to listen to the OP if he/she complains. They simply don't care about trainees, as long as they get Blackhall fees. OP is doing the right thing, seeking a secondment or alternative apprenticeship with someone who will pay them.

Had forgotten the OP signed into a voluntary agreement- in that case there is no case.

However I'd disagree with you re: being a troublemaker- I was more thinking about it from the perspective of the OP becoming a sole trader and not working for a firm. Obviously if they didn't want to pursue going out on their own then taking this route isn't feasible.

Nonetheless I still reckon there is a market out there for solicitors who are willing to take cases against other solicitors- the incompetence evident within the industry astounds me (especially some of the stories Im hearing about practices during the property boom). There is massive scope for fresh graduates to get down and dirty in the market and forge a reputation and a speciality as a solicitor who takes cases against their peers.

Angelica

I would really question the wisedom of entering into an unpaid traineeship in the current economic climate. Sure you've put in the hard work of passing FE-1s and given the Law Society an exorbitant sum already but the likelihood of finding a job post qualification could be pretty low even in a few years time. People are right in saying that the Law Society couldn't care less in what goes on and any trainee who did complain probably would find it very difficult to find another job. In my opinion, a lot of solicitors are thrilled to have to opportunity to exploit trainees and they will see how much they can exploit you and push you to the max. I would ask your training solicitor, after a while for some pay at least and if you have proven useful, you might get a small sum at least.

Another thing I would be wary of is the quality of training you will receive. In my experience a lot of solicitors see a trainee (in particular a female one) as a cheaper alternative to a clerk and/or secretary and will make you take on those roles at the expense of your training.

I'm probably biased as I haven't had the best traineeship experience at all ( having fallen into the substitute secretary trap) and even though I'm qualified a while I still feel incompetent in most areas to the extent that I'm contemplating a career change. But at least I got paid the Law Society minimum most of the time. The idea of training without being paid would be my idea of hell!

SATSUMA

My office has around 6 trainees and a couple of work experience students. They are entirely exploiting the system. The trainees work hard and contribute to the firm. There are more trainees than staff!!!! The partners get to run their business cheaply and they dont care if we starve to death.

They say they cant afford to pay, fair enough, but stop taking on more trainees then? They are too busy to train us properly.

law society are no help.

The profession is nothing but a snake pit. Shame on you.

galwaybetty

Hey RATM, I'd be lying if I said that I hadn't considered reporting her/suing her. I don't think that I will, because I truly believe that if she could pay me she would. Also, while some people may view me as a tough cookie, others will see me as disloyal, believe or not but ive already gotten that reaction from solicitors to whom Ive applied for a secondment....

I know I'm taking a gamble on this whole thing, and Ive questioned the wisdom of choosing to continue despite the change in my circumstances.....I honestly don't know what else I would do if Im not going to be a solicitor. For better or worse its what I've always wanted and if I'm going to be broke I'd rather be a broke trainee solicitor than anything else.

Im only a month into my traineeship so I cant really judge the quality of training yet. Its been a bit of substitute clerk/secretary job so far, but I think I should tackle her about going to court and doing other case work etc......

Someone recently said it looks dodgy to be seeking a secondment, is that true? Im not all that familiar with the industry.

Its good to know im not the only one in this boat anyway, call me misery enjoying company

legal eagle 1

SATSUMA wrote: »

My office has around 6 trainees and a couple of work experience students. They are entirely exploiting the system. The trainees work hard and contribute to the firm. There are more trainees than staff!!!! The partners get to run their business cheaply and they dont care if we starve to death.

They say they cant afford to pay, fair enough, but stop taking on more trainees then? They are too busy to train us properly.

law society are no help.

The profession is nothing but a snake pit. Shame on you.

You mean all 6 trainees in your firm are unpaid???

OP it is an awful predictment to be in and I wouldn't wish it on anyone but if it is something you really want to do stick with it....keep applying for secondments and hopefully something will turn up for you real soon

galwaybetty

I spoke with head of the Trainee Section in the Law Society and she suggested suspending my training until I find something else......its tempting but it seems like a step backwards? Ive only been here a month maybe the work will start improving soon. If not then I really will need to look at that!

Angelica

I'm not sure if you should suspend your training contract yet. I know you're not being paid and it isn't great experience yet but you're only a month in and things could change. I'd say look very hard for a secondment and stay put until you get one as you are now earning office time. I wouldn't really trust the Law Society's advice in training matters etc. as they are not really connected with reality! I'm assuming you're on the secondment/training contract register? If not, put your name on it pronto. A friend of mine was in a similar situation to you last year and she sent out hundreds of cvs and got a few interviews, eventually securing a traineeship that was far better than her last one. The fact that she had PPC1 behind her and had worked in another office made her more useful than someone who had just done the FE1s.

galwaybetty

Thanks for the advice Angelica I think your spot on the money there! Im on the registers, I guess I just need to get a bit more pro active on the cv front. Good to hear that there are people who are getting another training contract, you only hear the horror stories!

hp123

Hey there, I also finished the PPC1 course last April and was really looking forward to getting started in my firm. At first everything was grand - i had a plan of what i was to learn. However, I seem to have fallen into the problem that Angelica did - one of the secretaries in my firm went on maternity and now I am doing her dictation. i feel very much at a loss and i agree with Angelica's earlier post - re young females - I feel as if they think they can just slot me in to wherever they want and I'll just obey the orders and stay quiet... any words of wisdom from anyone?

McCrack

hp123 wrote: »

Hey there, I also finished the PPC1 course last April and was really looking forward to getting started in my firm. At first everything was grand - i had a plan of what i was to learn. However, I seem to have fallen into the problem that Angelica did - one of the secretaries in my firm went on maternity and now I am doing her dictation. i feel very much at a loss and i agree with Angelica's earlier post - re young females - I feel as if they think they can just slot me in to wherever they want and I'll just obey the orders and stay quiet... any words of wisdom from anyone?

You are a trainee, you are there to learn. You learn doing dictation. You learn how to write letters to clients and formulate replies to third parties/other solicitors by absorbing what you are being dictated.

So I would respectfully say lose the chip and do your job and qualify at the end with a competency that will either make the firm you are with keep you or another firm want to employ you.

page1

Hp123 i'd probably look for a secondment if you feel speaking to them will get you nowhere.


A question from me - I may have the possibility of a solicitor at least signing my indentures and I'll fund PPC1 myself. He may or may not be able to take me on after it.
I'm wondering should I go for that and worry about getting a new training contract or a secondment after ppc1.
Would it be any easier to get a tc/ secondment with ppc1 under your belt?

shaneybaby

McCrack wrote: »

You are a trainee, you are there to learn. You learn doing dictation. You learn how to write letters to clients and formulate replies to third parties/other solicitors by absorbing what you are being dictated.

So I would respectfully say lose the chip and do your job and qualify at the end with a competency that will either make the firm you are with keep you or another firm want to employ you.

I agree with you to a point, it takes months just to get used to the office environment alone never mind going off drafting summons and contracts. You can't expect to be fully involved in a supreme court case after 3 months work! However i've seen in it our place as well as watching others go through it now, similar to the poster above, a situation whereby it's a full training contract of dictation and briefs and you come out the otherside, qualified, unable to do anything other than secretarial work.

You learn by experience and that has to start with learning how letters sound and how to address issues presented in cases. However 12 months of typing another person's dictation will not help you to be kept on as a solicitor in that firm let alone any other. Stick it out but just be careful and watch where your career is heading.

Kate10

Am bound to offend with this post but some of the posters here need a serious wake up call. Ok, you have a law degree. In practice, you know virtually nothing. In the vast majority of cases first year trainees are far more of a hindrance than a help. The few who are a help are those who manage to leave the ego at the door, and recognize that they are there to learn. In this market, with work disappearing, competition cut throat, and premiums rising, taking on a trainee is the farthest thing from most solicitors' minds. You can stand on your high horse and take enormous offense that solicitors won't pay for a trainee, but if you want to do that, you had better choose another career. For those who are worried about the quality of their training, don't stand around passively waiting. Do the dictation or photocopying as quickly as you can, identify an interesting file, and ASK to be involved. Then do the same tomorrow and the same the day after. The more you learn, the more that you'll be able to help. Show interest in the clients and the files. Push yourself forward.

If I had a daughter or son who wanted to become a solicitor I would ask them to seriously consider their options before making this commitment. There are much easier and more rewarding options available. Despite the news headlines, the market is very crowded with many more solicitors than we need. The quality of work available in Ireland is very limited. I hate to be so negative, and so discouraging but quite honestly, I can't help but compare the situation of a friend who got first class honours in college and blackhall, good traineeship, was a partner in a Limerick firm at 28 (an excellent solicitor), and is now earning a pittance while other friends who got average commerce degrees now live very comfortable lives. I also have a friend who is a partner (non equity) in a top ten firm, and she is absolutely screwed by that practice. Her salary is a small fraction of her fee income. Her colleagues who delivered big profits for years were let go the minute their fee income dropped. Her clients have been reassigned without any adjustment to her fee target. And she is one of the lucky ones who got to keep her job. Don't get me started on the clients, from whom you can expect no gratitude and absolutely zero loyalty (re lack of loyalty, I'm not talking about clients leaving your firm, but the current approach which seems to be blame a solicitor for everything that goes wrong in the hope that something will stick and you will get to claim on their insurance).

Being a solicitor is a tough tough job and the financial rewards are not there. If you are balking at the idea of taking an unpaid traineeship, then your efforts might be better spent in another profession.

blueythebear

Kate10 wrote: »

Am bound to offend with this post but some of the posters here need a serious wake up call. Ok, you have a law degree. In practice, you know virtually nothing. In the vast majority of cases first year trainees are far more of a hindrance than a help. The few who are a help are those who manage to leave the ego at the door, and recognize that they are there to learn. In this market, with work disappearing, competition cut throat, and premiums rising, taking on a trainee is the farthest thing from most solicitors' minds. You can stand on your high horse and take enormous offense that solicitors won't pay for a trainee, but if you want to do that, you had better choose another career. For those who are worried about the quality of their training, don't stand around passively waiting. Do the dictation or photocopying as quickly as you can, identify an interesting file, and ASK to be involved. Then do the same tomorrow and the same the day after. The more you learn, the more that you'll be able to help. Show interest in the clients and the files. Push yourself forward.

If I had a daughter or son who wanted to become a solicitor I would ask them to seriously consider their options before making this commitment. There are much easier and more rewarding options available. Despite the news headlines, the market is very crowded with many more solicitors than we need. The quality of work available in Ireland is very limited. I hate to be so negative, and so discouraging but quite honestly, I can't help but compare the situation of a friend who got first class honours in college and blackhall, good traineeship, was a partner in a Limerick firm at 28 (an excellent solicitor), and is now earning a pittance while other friends who got average commerce degrees now live very comfortable lives. I also have a friend who is a partner (non equity) in a top ten firm, and she is absolutely screwed by that practice. Her salary is a small fraction of her fee income. Her colleagues who delivered big profits for years were let go the minute their fee income dropped. Her clients have been reassigned without any adjustment to her fee target. And she is one of the lucky ones who got to keep her job. Don't get me started on the clients, from whom you can expect no gratitude and absolutely zero loyalty (re lack of loyalty, I'm not talking about clients leaving your firm, but the current approach which seems to be blame a solicitor for everything that goes wrong in the hope that something will stick and you will get to claim on their insurance).

Being a solicitor is a tough tough job and the financial rewards are not there. If you are balking at the idea of taking an unpaid traineeship, then your efforts might be better spent in another profession.

I don't think that anyone is under any illusion about how tough a legal career is in the current climate but I don't think that it is too much to ask that a training solicitor comply with the explicit rules on payment of trainees. I would easily envisage that the solicitor who takes on a trainee for no pay would cut corners elsewhere in their practise which would make me question the benefit of receiving training from such an individual.

As for trainee solicitors being more of a hindrance than a help? THere's obviously a problem with your recruitment process as you've obviously taken on the wrong people. There's naturally a learning period for anyone in any job but trainees are often vital members of staff. How many partners attend counsel for motions? How many partners will sit in the Central Office for an hour to file documents?

galwaybetty

Hey there, seeing as I gave you all the benefit of my sob story, I thought I might as well share my good news too. I just got offered a paid traineeship! I couldn't be more delighted. They made it clear that they expect a lot of hard work, but thats what I signed up for and that all I ever wanted! So just to let you know, dont believe people when they say that there is nothing out there and you are nuts to expect it! They are out there, they are just tough to find!

Apologies for all the exclamation points, have crazy grin on my face today and it just matches my mood.

Strictly

Great news absolutely delighted for you. I am sure you are going to have a great weekend!