social welfare reform

danbohan

anyone that has any illusions that total reform of our social welfare should read this in sunday independant

what a blooody crazy crazy country !


A MAN with 56 previous convictions and at least €44,000 worth of annual social welfare benefits got free legal aid for his latest court case, drawing criticism of the system from the judge

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/man-with-56-convictions-on-euro44000-gets-legal-aid-2538080.html

femur61

Judges don't live in the real world. Ivor Callely getting €17,000 for being suspended for 20 days, the LRC giving €15,000 to sceintists because under CP agreement that is the amount thet lost.

danbohan

femur61 wrote: »

Judges don't live in the real world. Ivor Callely getting €17,000 for being suspended for 20 days, the LRC giving €15,000 to sceintists because under CP agreement that is the amount thet lost.

whats not in the real world is a country that gives somebody 44k for been unemployed /unemployable

AlekSmart

The exasperated judge was hearing a case against father-of-eight Kevin McDonagh, 38, of Knocknacarra, Galway at the District Court last Tuesday.

McDonagh has 56 previous convictions, eight of which were notched up in the last two years, including a firearms offence for which he served three months in 2008. He received a further seven-month jail sentence later that year for public order offences.

On this occasion he received a five-month prison sentence and a five-year ban for driving without insurance while he was already disqualified from driving.

Jeepers,that`s a fine CV right nuff...

However,in true Irish style,perhaps there are lines to be read between ?

Mr McDonagh will doubtless be facilitated to continue his long and productive relationship with the DSP because the likelyhood of him cuttin-up-rough if he`s removed from the system may be too great.

DanBohan is 100% correct to focus on this element of the broken Irish system,but nobody want`s to address it...cue the posts regarding Hi-Flying Bankers,Developers and Politicians etc etc.....:rolleyes:

Sadly for us all,the real changes need to come from the bottom up right now.
The inalienable right under the Irish Constitution (or our current interpretation of it) to Bear and Keep Children (at somebody else`s expense) will eventually bankrupt the country as a whole.

A 38 year old man with 8 children recieving €850 in benefit on a long-term basis is unsustainable and thats before we ask about the Medical Card,Free Travel,Free Telephone,Free Fuel et al......:)

Femur61: Judges don't live in the real world. Ivor Callely getting €17,000 for being suspended for 20 days, the LRC giving €15,000 to sceintists because under CP agreement that is the amount thet lost.

From my reading of the article,Judge Mary Fahey appears to reside in the real world,as evidenced by her remarks here.

However she is bound by the Rules of engagement covering the likes of our recidivist defendant,which offer him free and wide entitlement to the entire panopoly of State Services,which oddly enough are denied to those who actually fund the system !

The Ivor Calelly and the Scientists comparison just does`nt square in this case....It`s for another thread I`d suggest ?

RichardAnd

Can someone explain to me how he gets 850 euros a week on SW?

dan_d

Hear, hear!!

The problem is not only with a State that agrees to fund this kind of thing - it's also with a State who does not enforce/administer the awarding of things like this. Many people have no problem with the idea of people who need money being given welfare - where we run into trouble is at the front face, where few claims are questioned and people can apply for anything, without anyone investigating. Most European countries have welfare systems - but they are strictly enforced and regulated (there's that nasty word again, the one that our politicians hate so much:rolleyes::rolleyes:), to ensure the systems aren't abused. We fall down very badly in that area - as usual.

zig

Before all the bashing begins, i'm unemployed and I get 9,776 euro a year, not 44k, Im not sure how he could possibly manage that.

KindOfIrish

RichardAnd wrote: »

Can someone explain to me how he gets 850 euros a week on SW?

married with 4 children probably

bmarley

hasn't there already been a similar thread just opened?

sollar

RichardAnd wrote: »

Can someone explain to me how he gets 850 euros a week on SW?

JB 318
Children 232
Rent all 180
Fuel all 20
Total 790
+ other bits and bobs like C + F, TV License and god knows what else could bring it up to 850.

jodaw

There is some serious propaganda getting pumped into the media these days relating to Social Welfare. I am convinced this is an active campaign on behalf of the state ...

Turn the people against Social Welfare Recipients and in turn cut the arse out of it. This will lead to a massive social problems and reduced living standards for the entire country.

Make you own choices people and do not kick your fellow citizen when he is down.

Whats makes me even more sick is the reason that the poor social welfare recipient is being targeted. To pay for the debts that we as a state should have never taken on board.

It is sick, immoral and it will destroy us as a nation.

And now for a climate change policy to transfer wealth from here to poorer nations and in turn make us all poor together.

The media hate campaign against SW recipients is gathering pace and will increase until the next budget when they will be smacked again.

ardmacha

Whats makes me even more sick is the reason that the poor social welfare recipient is being targeted. To pay for the debts that we as a state should have never taken on board.

Social welfare recipients are citizens like everyone else and as likely to have voted for the government that took these decisions as everyone else. As citizens they have a right to share in the prosperity of the nation, but if that prosperity is reduced then they have to play their part along with everyone else.

jodaw

ardmacha wrote: »

Social welfare recipients are citizens like everyone else and as likely to have voted for the government that took these decisions as everyone else. As citizens they have a right to share in the prosperity of the nation, but if that prosperity is reduced then they have to play their part along with everyone else.

Yes true ...

But 90% of our prosperity was a con that was making us less and less competitive with each year that past. Now there is a huge transfer of wealth taking place.

Social welfare has been hit in every budget since.

But there is an active media campaign going on at the moment. Also every possible quote for SW is at the very highest level. The cases being presented are the exceptions.

Coincidence? I think not. Propaganda plain and simple

The Orb

Our SW system is fundamentally flawed. it is so generous it is a lifestyle choice for some. I live on my own, work hard to pay my mortgage and am taxed up to my neck. Meanwhile in an apartment beside mine, an unemployed couple with two kids have their rent paid for by the state and god knows what else. From my calculations my entire income tax/usc payment to the state is less than the state is paying to look after these people. I think I am justified in being annoyed at this, it makes my blood boil to come home some evenings to see the woman in the car park in her pyjamas at 5.30 in the evening having a smoke before throwing the butt on the ground. Some people need and deserve state help, not a state funded lifestyle. Wasters. No wonder the country is f*cked when so many of its citizens are happy to sit back in front of Jeremy Kyle and count their "benefits" while idiots like me pay for it.

woody_2000

jodaw wrote: »

But 90% of our prosperity was a con that was making us less and less competitive with each year that past.

+1 :pac:

Bullseye1

ardmacha wrote: »

Social welfare recipients are citizens like everyone else and as likely to have voted for the government that took these decisions as everyone else. As citizens they have a right to share in the prosperity of the nation, but if that prosperity is reduced then they have to play their part along with everyone else.

Why are they entitled? Self employed people are not entitled. The sooner we get away from this feeling of entitlement the sooner we will get out of this mess.

I have no problem with people receiving benefit if they have lost their jobs though no fault of their own. But this guy sounds like he is long term unemployed with no intention of ever getting himself work. Benefits shouldn't be forever.

sollar

The Orb wrote: »

Our SW system is fundamentally flawed. it is so generous it is a lifestyle choice for some. I live on my own, work hard to pay my mortgage and am taxed up to my neck. Meanwhile in an apartment beside mine, an unemployed couple with two kids have their rent paid for by the state and god knows what else. From my calculations my entire income tax/usc payment to the state is less than the state is paying to look after these people. I think I am justified in being annoyed at this, it makes my blood boil to come home some evenings to see the woman in the car park in her pyjamas at 5.30 in the evening having a smoke before throwing the butt on the ground. Some people need and deserve state help, not a state funded lifestyle. Wasters. No wonder the country is f*cked when so many of its citizens are happy to sit back in front of Jeremy Kyle and count their "benefits" while idiots like me pay for it.

I agree.

I wish there was a change in the definition of social welfare so that it was only called jobseekers benefit for the first 2 years and after that it was given some other name. That way when refering to the lifetime wasters on the dole it would be clear that we are not talking about people who have been unlucky and laid off.

The people like you mention above are the people who need to be targeted and paid less and less until they get off their asses and do something useful.

thebman

He gets more as a criminal from the state a year than I earn and I was working 9 to 7 most of this week. The rest of the week, I was there until 9


Anyone saying this system isn't broken needs the reality check IMO ...

56 Convictions shows he has no interest in reforming, throw away the key at this stage.

whiteonion

Criminals should not get ANY social welfare. Giving them social welfare is subsidising their behavior.

They should not be entitled to any money from the dole.
They should not be entilted to any healthcare.

Take away everything, starve the beast.

thebman

Well I think at the very least they should have to work their dole until they find another job cleaning our streets especially if they are repeat offenders.

dan_d

jodaw wrote: »

There is some serious propaganda getting pumped into the media these days relating to Social Welfare. I am convinced this is an active campaign on behalf of the state ...

Turn the people against Social Welfare Recipients and in turn cut the arse out of it. This will lead to a massive social problems and reduced living standards for the entire country.

Make you own choices people and do not kick your fellow citizen when he is down.

Whats makes me even more sick is the reason that the poor social welfare recipient is being targeted. To pay for the debts that we as a state should have never taken on board.

It is sick, immoral and it will destroy us as a nation.

And now for a climate change policy to transfer wealth from here to poorer nations and in turn make us all poor together.

The media hate campaign against SW recipients is gathering pace and will increase until the next budget when they will be smacked again.

I am a SW recipient. Working my arse off to find a job.In fact I got one, before Christmas, worked 3 weeks and was told they had to let me go as a number of contracts had been cancelled.

I appreciate you're probably referring to long-term social welfare recipients, but there is certainly a case for a distinction to be drawn between those who have been on the dole indefinitely - 3 yrs + - and those who find themselves there as a result of the downturn and are doing their best to find a job.

caseyann

sollar wrote: »

JB 318
Children 232
Rent all 180
Fuel all 20
Total 790
+ other bits and bobs like C + F, TV License and god knows what else could bring it up to 850.

He has eight kids (hearing a case against father-of-eight Kevin McDonagh, 38, of Knocknacarra, Galway at the District Court last Tuesday)

You dont get a tv licence free,you dont get 232 euro per child.lol
You get 20 euro if even that per child and he gets money for his wife and himself in one payment.
Its the children allowance that does it for him.
Eight children €1,332 a month.lol

caseyann

The Orb wrote: »

Our SW system is fundamentally flawed. it is so generous it is a lifestyle choice for some. I live on my own, work hard to pay my mortgage and am taxed up to my neck. Meanwhile in an apartment beside mine, an unemployed couple with two kids have their rent paid for by the state and god knows what else. From my calculations my entire income tax/usc payment to the state is less than the state is paying to look after these people. I think I am justified in being annoyed at this, it makes my blood boil to come home some evenings to see the woman in the car park in her pyjamas at 5.30 in the evening having a smoke before throwing the butt on the ground. Some people need and deserve state help, not a state funded lifestyle. Wasters. No wonder the country is f*cked when so many of its citizens are happy to sit back in front of Jeremy Kyle and count their "benefits" while idiots like me pay for it.

It is not a lifestyle choice and people would want to get off their high horse and stop tarring all social welfare people with the same brush.I know plenty of people who would much rather work and be able to afford a pair of trousers and shoes that last more than a couple of weeks and be able to buy their kids shoes that last more than a week.And have something to get up for i n the morning.Take a holiday and the normal things in life.But they dont and only ones who do are working and scamming gf pretends not with bf and he works away and she claims social welfare and the criminals.The normal everyday social welfare person who wants to work and wants to contribute dont make lifestyle choices to live off 188 euro a week and be given 20 euro a week for their child.
And the ones who are long term social welfare people alot havent got the confidence to go get a job or feel they are not smart enough.There is a hundred and one different welfare recipients and for you to use one description is unfair and snobby.

On topic he is a criminal but the kids are not,not their fault.They still deserve to be fed and clothed and have heating in their house etc...

gurramok

The Orb wrote: »

Our SW system is fundamentally flawed. it is so generous it is a lifestyle choice for some. I live on my own, work hard to pay my mortgage and am taxed up to my neck. Meanwhile in an apartment beside mine, an unemployed couple with two kids have their rent paid for by the state and god knows what else. From my calculations my entire income tax/usc payment to the state is less than the state is paying to look after these people. I think I am justified in being annoyed at this, it makes my blood boil to come home some evenings to see the woman in the car park in her pyjamas at 5.30 in the evening having a smoke before throwing the butt on the ground. Some people need and deserve state help, not a state funded lifestyle. Wasters. No wonder the country is f*cked when so many of its citizens are happy to sit back in front of Jeremy Kyle and count their "benefits" while idiots like me pay for it.

Do you live in my block?! I ash as yes its so bloody widespread that its very frustrating going to work every day and yet these people sponge off the state.

In the block next to me, a 19yr old 'single mother' gets 900quid rent paid a month by the state yet the rest of us have to go out and earn that amount of money to pay for a roof over our heads.

I hope if FG get into power that they have definitive policies aimed specifically at the scrounging lifestyle element. Do they have such policies?

jc84

i find it so unfair the way people bang on about social welfare as if its a life style choice, unfortunately there will always be the odd few who abuse the system etc, but 98% of the people on this are desperate for work and have mortgages, kids etc to pay for, the reason social welfare in this country is higher than others is the standard of living her is so much higher, most of the people who bang on about welfare being too generous are the ones who have a job and don't need to worry about it, maybe when they lose their jobs and have to struggle like others they might shut up

gurramok

caseyann wrote: »

It is not a lifestyle choice and people would want to get off their high horse and stop tarring all social welfare people with the same brush.I know plenty of people who would much rather work and be able to afford a pair of trousers and shoes that last more than a couple of weeks and be able to buy their kids shoes that last more than a week.

On topic he is a criminal but the kids are not,not their fault.They still deserve to be fed and clothed and have heating in their house etc...

jc84 wrote: »

i find it so unfair the way people bang on about social welfare as if its a life style choice, unfortunately there will always be the odd few who abuse the system etc, but 98% of the people on this are desperate for work and have mortgages, kids etc to pay for, the reason social welfare in this country is higher than others is the standard of living her is so much higher, most of the people who bang on about welfare being too generous are the ones who have a job and don't need to worry about it, maybe when they lose their jobs and have to struggle like others they might shut up

Some people cannot read posts. The poster said SOME people are abusing the system.

If I lost my job tomorrow jc84, I will not be entitled to Rent Supplement as I will be means tested on my savings. You see, having worked hard and being prudent I will get screwed over.

caseyann

gurramok wrote: »

Some people cannot read posts. The poster said SOME people are abusing the system.

If I lost my job tomorrow jc84, I will not be entitled to Rent Supplement as I will be means tested on my savings. You see, having worked hard and being prudent I will get screwed over.

Well neither would i but it doesn't mean i begrudge people not as lucky as me,Sure there is some who are screwing the system thats all over the world and not all from this country or the country they are screwing.
There is no solution unless they have private investigators following them around and catching them in act.And that in itself is probably going to cost more.
Then that part of the system needs changing you paid your taxes therefore you get your 188 euro a week will that make you feel better?

gurramok

caseyann wrote: »

Well neither would i but it doesn't mean i begrudge people not as lucky as me,Sure there is some who are screwing the system thats all over the world and not all from this country or the country they are screwing.
There is no solution unless they have private investigators following them around and catching them in act.And that in itself is probably going to cost more.
Then that part of the system needs changing you paid your taxes therefore you get your 188 euro a week will that make you feel better?

I'm begrudging careerists? What's wrong with that?!

188 a week will not put a roof over my head. Perhaps I should have a couple of kids and follow the trend.

Kernel

jodaw wrote: »

Social welfare has been hit in every budget since.

Social welfare has been tickled rather than hit. If you want to see a hit over the last two years you should see my wage packet.

I don't believe there's a media campaign per se, social welfare is simply the elephant in the room with regard to the country's current economic position, and one that needs to be tackled. When people are better off on the dole getting tax payers money and rent allowance etc. than working, then it's an over generous disincentive that needs to be addressed.

More on topic with what the judge is referring to, the simplest and most effective method of addressing the issue is to pass legislation which would mean that if somebody is convicted of a crime, or receives a fine, that money should be docked from social welfare payments in the future. This would act as a deterrent, as is the actual purpose for issuing fines. Free legal aid should only apply to those who are found innocent of the charges and who have no means to defend themselves in court.

I would also include local council fines in this proposed scheme.

wyndhurst

Most of the posts here are missing the point completely. The key here is not about SW but about the ridiculous Legal Aid system that still supports someone (on SW or otherwise) even after 53 convictions.

This situation shows Legal Aid requires some major reform and some innovative idea's. Such as.....

Legal aid is provided up to a threshold, say 3rd conviction. After that any future legal aids costs are subsequently deducted from future payments from the State (SW or otherwise). Maybe even use a tiered basis (25% 4th convistion, 50% 5th, etc, etc).
I wonder what effect this would have on crime levels if the potential criminal knew it was going to hit them in the pocket if convicted?

Spudmonkey

zig wrote: »

Before all the bashing begins, i'm unemployed and I get 9,776 euro a year, not 44k, Im not sure how he could possibly manage that.

I'm sure there are a lot of people employed wondering how he is managing that.

poppyvalley

femur61 wrote: »

Judges don't live in the real world. .

yeah, I often wonder about our judiciary. Is it too much power for one person to decide? Sometimes I think they get carried away

Whiskeyjack

Sadly in rougher areas there will always be people who have kids just to claim benefits. The state has little choice if as it's these not kids' fault that they were born to such a family. I believe that having children shouldn't be a right from the get go, that it needs to be earned, but obviously that would be impossible to enforce. The only way to stop stuff like this is grass roots social work.

Sir Oxman

Almost 16,000 of that figure is Child Benefit, which is a universal welfare allowance.
For Galway, maximum rent supplement is €760 (that's for couple with 3 children, could be higher for him with 8?) = 9,120
JSA is 188pw max, qualified adult (wife) = 124.80pw
qualified child (up to 18yrs)= 29.80 each x 8 = 238.40pw
JSA Total = 551.20pw which is 28,662.40 per year
TOTAL almost 54,000 inc rent supp
approx 44,500 Child Benefit and JSA
Then there's back to scholol allowance (approx €800 for his family pa) and fuel allowance if on JSA (approx €640pa)

Doesn't sound like he's getting rent supplement, maybe he has low rent in a council house?

Here's a tough one - any widespread support for majorly reducing child benefit? Which is universal.

later12

Whiskeyjack wrote: »

Sadly in rougher areas there will always be people who have kids just to claim benefits.

I really don't believe this. Nobody with a shred of intelligence has kids for monetary gain. You would be far better off on social welfare if you lived by yourself on rent allowance and full personal benefits.

The children's allowance money given to parents on welfare would be given to them if they had a job or not. Furthermore the slightly higher jobseekers' rate given to these parents could not possibly even remotely cover their parenting costs and the work of parenting.

highgiant1985

later10 wrote: »

I really don't believe this. Nobody with a shred of intelligence has kids for monetary gain. You would be far better off on social welfare if you lived by yourself on rent allowance and full personal benefits.

The children's allowance money given to parents on welfare would be given to them if they had a job or not. Furthermore the slightly higher jobseekers' rate given to these parents could not possibly even remotely cover their parenting costs and the work of parenting.

single parents with young kids get put top of housing lists though, It seems to be a common occurance where I'm from unfort.

billyboy01

danbohan wrote: »

anyone that has any illusions that total reform of our social welfare should read this in sunday independant

what a blooody crazy crazy country !


A MAN with 56 previous convictions and at least €44,000 worth of annual social welfare benefits got free legal aid for his latest court case, drawing criticism of the system from the judge

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/man-with-56-convictions-on-euro44000-gets-legal-aid-2538080.html

This is coming from a crowd of chancers, that blackmailed the Free State Government under Dev into giving them consessions, ie exemptions from taxes and being questioned by the State for there actions!

Count Dooku

BTW,
Prime Minister David Cameron Outlines Radical Welfare Reform Tax Credit To Replace Benefits

Iain Duncan Smith's Welfare Reform Bill involves a radical overhaul, aimed at simplifying the system and tackling the culture that he believes encourages people to choose a life on benefits.
The proposals include replacing work-related benefits with a single, universal credit, designed to ensure people are always better off when they are employed.
The Government intends to close the loophole which enables some couples to receive more living apart.
But there is also a significant climbdown, with ministers shelving a controversial plan to cut people's housing benefit by 10% if they were in receipt of Jobseeker's Allowance for more than a year.
Mr Cameron said the changes announced would slash £5.5bn from the welfare bill in real terms over the next four years by limiting housing benefit, reforming tax credits and taking child benefit away from higher-rate taxpayers.

caseyann

highgiant1985 wrote: »

single parents with young kids get put top of housing lists though, It seems to be a common occurance where I'm from unfort.

non Irish refugees get top of the housing lists and given welfare and what?