Ballymurphy Massacre-Why no inquest?

Wolfe Tone

The Ballymurphy massacre occured between the 9th and 11th of August 1971, when the BA set about implementing internment without trial, they besieged the community in Belfast and upon entering the area they claimed they where fired upon(sound familiar?) Over the course of the three days 11 innocent civilians were killed by her majesty's forces. The parachute regiment.

List of the victims from Wikipedia:

Six civilians were shot on 9 August, these were:
Francis Quinn (19), shot by a sniper (who had taken position at the nearby army base) while going to the aid of a wounded man.[1]
Hugh Mullan (38), a Catholic priest, shot by a sniper while going to the aid of a wounded man.[1][2]
Joan Connolly (50), shot as she stood opposite the army base.[1][3]
Daniel Teggart (44), shot as he stood opposite the army base.[1]
Noel Phillips (20), shot as he stood opposite the army base.[1][4]
Joseph Murphy (41), shot as he stood opposite the army base.[1]
One civilian was shot on 10 August, and another four were shot on 11 August, these were:
Edward Doherty (28), shot while walking along Whiterock Road.[5]
John Laverty (20) and Joseph Corr (43) were shot at separate points at the Top of the Whiterock Road. John was shot twice once in the back and once in the back of the leg. Mr Corr was shot multiple times and died of his injuries on the 27th of August [6].[1]
John McKerr (49), shot while standing outside the Roman Catholic Church, died of his injuries on 20 August.[1][7]
Paddy McCarthy (44) got into a confrontation with a group of soldiers. One of them allegedly put an empty gun in his mouth and pulled the trigger. As a result, McCarthy suffered a heart-attack and died shortly thereafter.[8][9]

That was near 40 years ago. Still no justice for these people, or an acknowledgement from the British that those civilians where just that, innocent civilians and the killings were wrong. There has been a satisfactory inquest and report on Bloody Sunday and vindication for the families. Do the families of those killed in Ballymurphy not deserve the same? They have long campaigned for the truth to come out, and I support them. They have a site, take a look.


http://www.ballymurphymassacre.com/index.htm

On Monday 9th of August 1971 Interment without Trial was introduced by the British Government in the North of Ireland. This policy was implemented by the British Army at 4am on that particular summer morning. The British Army directed the campaign against the predominately Catholic community with the stated aim to "shock and stun the civilian population".

Between 9th and 11th of August 1971, over 600 British soldiers entered the Ballymurphy area of West Belfast, raiding homes and rounding up men. Many, both young and old, were shot and beaten as they were dragged from their homes without reason. During this 3 day period 11 people were brutally murdered.

All 11 unarmed civilians were murdered by the British Army's Parachute Regiment. One of the victims was a well known parish priest and another was a 45 year old mother of eight children. No investigations were carried out and no member of the British Army was held to account.

It is believed that some of the soldiers involved in Ballymurphy went on to Derry some months later where similar events occurred. Had those involved in Ballymurphy been held to account, the events of Bloody Sunday may not have happened.

The terrible events which took place in Ballymurphy in 1971 have for too long remained in the shadows. Here we, the families of those murdered, put the spotlight on how 11 innocent people met their deaths over a three day period in August 1971

David Cameron said this after the publication of the Saville report about the families of the Bloody Sunday victims:

They have pursued their long campaign over 38 years with great patience. Nothing can bring back those who were killed, but I hope, as one relative has put it, the truth coming out can help set people free.

What about the families of the the victims of the Ballymurphy massacre? Do they not deserve the truth too?

dlofnep

In before the usual whataboutery.

I have listened in person to the families of the ballymurphy massacre. Very much like Bloody Sunday, they were gunned down by British State forces, without cause. To give you an idea of the context at which these events occured.. Once event saw a priest waving a white flag, while trying to come to the aid of an injured man was shot in the back. There was absolutely no justification for it. He had called the army base prior to even entering the area to signal his intent to assist the injured man. The guy he was assisting had been shot for trying to help children escape the area, as loyalists were causing mayhem and attacking civilians.

Joan Connolly a mother of 8, was slaughtered by bullets for attempting to go to the aid on an injured young lad. She was refused medical assistance, and was left to bleed to death.

Noel Phillips, a 20 year old lad was shot in the back by a soldier. He along with other people in the area were running the away from soldiers who opening fire at them. As he lay on the ground dieing for a while - an army patrol pulled up, with 2 soldiers exiting. One of them unloaded on Noel on the ground with a pistol. Absolutely no justification whatsoever for it, it was a cold blooded execution.

These stories really hit home for you when you speak to the family members and hear their pain firsthand. The detail in their stories is horrifying, and it makes you wonder why it never received the same level of attention as Bloody Sunday. The cold reality of it was, media was present on Bloody Sunday to capture it. They were not at Ballymurphy.

The British Government has alot to answer for sweeping this under the carpet.

KeithAFC

I thought everyone had moved on? Still no justice for the Claudy boming either. 9 dead. Also, i doubt the British government will come out and investigate the Ballymurphy massacre after the whole Bloody Sunday thing.

Also, kingsmill. Another one which was just sweeped under the carpet. And on and on. We will never get the full truth anyway.

dlofnep

KeithAFC wrote: »

I thought everyone had moved on?

The families have not moved on. Their pursuit of justice and truth is perfectly valid.

dlofnep

dlofnep wrote: »

The families have not moved on. Their pursuit of justice and truth is perfectly valid.

Absolutely, and part of moving on is getting justice!
Unfortunately there are over 1,000 unsolved murders in the North
and they arent investigated anymore:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2010/mar/30/troubles-murder-investigation-unit-abolished

I always believed that they made a mistake in the good friday agreement by releasing pretty much every prisoner regardless - they should have had an equivalent to war crimes for those who intentionally murdered civilians.

By letting the terrorists off with everything they kind of need to do the same for the British army ?!? Its not right and the alternative approach would have kept southern anger at the murder of Garda Gerry Mc Cabe at bay too

KeithAFC

Deleted User wrote: »

Absolutely, and part of moving on is getting justice!
Unfortunately there are over 1,000 unsolved murders in the North
and they arent investigated anymore:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2010/mar/30/troubles-murder-investigation-unit-abolished

I always believed that they made a mistake in the good friday agreement by releasing pretty much every prisoner regardless - they should have had an equivalent to war crimes for those who intentionally murdered civilians.

By letting the terrorists off with everything they kind of need to do the same for the British army ?!? Its not right and the alternative approach would have kept southern anger at the murder of Garda Gerry Mc Cabe at bay too

Exactly. The moment they did that, they basically showed a sign of just moving on and looking to the future. So the Ballymurphy killings won't be investigated or anything come from it.

Same with the Bloody Sunday killings. No Soldier will go to prison for that either.

Bottle_of_Smoke

Deleted User wrote: »

Absolutely, and part of moving on is getting justice!
Unfortunately there are over 1,000 unsolved murders in the North
and they arent investigated anymore:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2010/mar/30/troubles-murder-investigation-unit-abolished

I always believed that they made a mistake in the good friday agreement by releasing pretty much every prisoner regardless - they should have had an equivalent to war crimes for those who intentionally murdered civilians.

By letting the terrorists off with everything they kind of need to do the same for the British army ?!? Its not right and the alternative approach would have kept southern anger at the murder of Garda Gerry Mc Cabe at bay too

That couldn't have worked because the main loyalist tactic was killing civilians as a warning to republicans. over 80% of their victims had no connection to the republican groups or political wings of those groups

So your suggestion would lead to a situation where most republicans prisoners would be released but the vast majority of loyalists wouldn't - which would have led to the collapse of the GFA

dlofnep

Deleted User wrote: »

By letting the terrorists off with everything they kind of need to do the same for the British army ?!?

The British establishment was quick to lock up nationalists in the north, guilty or not guilty during internment - But when it comes to pursuing justice for the actions of their forces, they were never as quick to the draw.

So if you murdered a woman of 8 children, or a priest waving a white flag - you got away without even a scolding, so long as you were a British soldier. However, if you were in the wrong place at the wrong time as a nationalist - you were locked away, and beaten up by Prison officers.

Where's the balance? The Ballymurphy incident needs to be investigated. Some families simply want acknowledgement that their loved ones were innocent of fault, and that the British soldiers brutally slaughtered their loved ones. It's a valid request, and it should be fulfilled.

gurramok

KeithAFC wrote: »

I thought everyone had moved on? Still no justice for the Claudy boming either. 9 dead. Also, i doubt the British government will come out and investigate the Ballymurphy massacre after the whole Bloody Sunday thing.

Also, kingsmill. Another one which was just sweeped under the carpet. And on and on. We will never get the full truth anyway.

The IRA\"insert Republican organisation" were not acting as agents of the Irish govt.

The British Army were acting as agents of the British govt who are an elected sovereign govt. Big difference.

KeithAFC

gurramok wrote: »

The IRA\"insert Republican organisation" were not acting as agents of the Irish govt.

The British Army were acting as agents of the British govt who are an elected sovereign govt. Big difference.

Some would disagree. Some didn't recognise the republican government.

Fitzerb

One of the great injustices and disregard for the Irish people was the promotion of a Michael Jackson to become head of the British Armed Forces and to be knighted.
The “soldier” was in Derry on Bloody Sunday as a lower rank officer. He is “suspected” of tampering with soldiers statements given to the Widgery tribunal. In return for his deeds the British Government promoted him to the highest ranking soldier and gave him a Knighthood. Hard to move on from that type of injustice and harder still to welcome their head of state to Dublin this year.

I salute the people of Ballymurphy and Ardoyne who gave safe house to men and women that fought the British Army in Belfast and in doing so protected their own from a genocide that could have taken place.

paky

Fitzerb wrote: »

One of the great injustices and disregard for the Irish people was the promotion of a Michael Jackson to become head of the British Armed Forces and to be knighted.
The “soldier” was in Derry on Bloody Sunday as a lower rank officer. He is “suspected” of tampering with soldiers statements given to the Widgery tribunal. In return for his deeds the British Government promoted him to the highest ranking soldier and gave him a Knighthood. Hard to move on from that type of injustice and harder still to welcome their head of state to Dublin this year.

and for this reason alone the queen is not welcome in this country

Fitzerb

paky wrote: »

and for this reason alone the queen is not welcome in this country

Is that a statement of support or a question ?

KeithAFC

Fitzerb wrote: »

One of the great injustices and disregard for the Irish people was the promotion of a Michael Jackson to become head of the British Armed Forces and to be knighted.
The “soldier” was in Derry on Bloody Sunday as a lower rank officer. He is “suspected” of tampering with soldiers statements given to the Widgery tribunal. In return for his deeds the British Government promoted him to the highest ranking soldier and gave him a Knighthood. Hard to move on from that type of injustice and harder still to welcome their head of state to Dublin this year.

I salute the people of Ballymurphy and Ardoyne who gave safe house to men and women that fought the British Army in Belfast and in doing so protected their own from a genocide that could have taken place.

They defended their homes from genocide and yet some of the acts they did themselves were genocide acts of Protestant people. Kingsmill a perfect example.

Ghost Estate

I misread the title as "Ballymurphy Massacre-Why no interest?"

I suspect that is also the reason.

gurramok

Ghost Estate wrote: »

I misread the title as "Ballymurphy Massacre-Why no interest?"

I suspect that is also the reason.

Very true.

No interest from the British govt as its an atrocity in their name with a need to brush it under the carpet(40yr time stretch is a success) and no interest from the usual IRA basher posters here as they really do not care about unarmed civilians that were murdered by state forces, they only care about civilians murdered by the IRA and have less care for those murdered by Loyalists.

Of course, their retort is that anyone(including the SDLP) who highlights said injustices are IRA supporters. Its a rather pathetic association to label the victims as 'terrorists'.

KeithAFC

Isn't this what the historical enquiries team is about?

lugha

The original post appears to be motivated by a genuine abhorrence of a wrong done four decades ago, or it would if you weren’t familiar with the “interesting” views the original poster has offered on other threads here, on for example, the murders of Jean McConville and Gerry McCabe. Read some of these and you will very much get the sense that his abhorrence is more keenly felt when the perpetrators are loyalists or BA forces.
Of course, he is entitled to essentially be a green equivalent to the likes of Willie Frazer but the whole Tone (:P) of that post was that it was not about republican propaganda but a desire that some measure of justice be brought to bear on a great and unique wrong that was perpetrated in the NI conflict.

If the OP really is driven by a desire to address an injustice deficit from those troubled times, then he should be demanding justice for all those wronged on all sides. And the logical consequence of that is that those released under GFA should be returned to complete their sentence (let us have a new referendum if necessary) and that every killing in NI, be it by BA forces, or loyalists or republicans to be investigated to the full extent of the law.
I somehow suspect that this would not find favour with him.

Fitzerb

KeithAFC wrote: »

They defended their homes from genocide and yet some of the acts they did themselves were genocide acts of Protestant people. Kingsmill a perfect example.

The SARAF Who operated from 75 to 77 claimed responsibility for this atrocity. They operated in South Armagh so how you can associate the people of Ballymurphy with an atrocity in Armagh is beyond me.
The SARFA was a breakaway from Provo members of Sth Armagh Brigade who went on to be leading members of INLA. This atrocity had nothing to do with the people of Ballymurphy and it is extremely disrespectful to decent working class people of West Belfast for you to suggest so.

Fitzerb

lugha wrote: »

The original post appears to be motivated by a genuine abhorrence of a wrong done four decades ago, or it would if you weren’t familiar with the “interesting” views the original poster has offered on other threads here, on for example, the murders of Jean McConville and Gerry McCabe. Read some of these and you will very much get the sense that his abhorrence is more keenly felt when the perpetrators are loyalists or BA forces.
Of course, he is entitled to essentially be a green equivalent to the likes of Willie Frazer but the whole Tone (:P) of that post was that it was not about republican propaganda but a desire that some measure of justice be brought to bear on a great and unique wrong that was perpetrated in the NI conflict.

If the OP really is driven by a desire to address an injustice deficit from those troubled times, then he should be demanding justice for all those wronged on all sides. And the logical consequence of that is that those released under GFA should be returned to complete their sentence (let us have a new referendum if necessary) and that every killing in NI, be it by BA forces, or loyalists or republicans to be investigated to the full extent of the law.
I somehow suspect that this would not find favour with him.

You attempt to simplify a very complex matter. I also wish for the British to examine the actions of the Paras in Ballymurphy during that period. I condemn the murder of innocent people by anyone and I especially condemn the murder of Jerry Mc Cabe as it occurred after the GFA which made a horrible act much worse. I was banned from Boards.ie for showing pictures of the murdered Jerry Mc Cabe. I say this so you understand I do not support SF.
However, the British army was sent to NI to protect Catholics at a time when they were getting burned from their homes. Their total lack of respect for the Irish nation from the british was the reason for such a prolonged period of troubles.
The decision in Derry by a Cap Wilford to ignore orders was the reason that led to the murder of innocent people by a legitimate army. They then covered this atrocity up and knighted on the lower rank officers. The decision to intern people and allow hunger strikers die was the two most valuable recruiting agendas for the IRA, and only prolonged the violence. The British Army behaved without discipline in N Ireland and their Government supported this by their actions. The people of Ballymurphy are entitled to know why a legitimate government force send to restore peace behaved in this manner.

KeithAFC

Fitzerb wrote: »

The SARAF Who operated from 75 to 77 claimed responsibility for this atrocity. They operated in South Armagh so how you can associate the people of Ballymurphy with an atrocity in Armagh is beyond me.
The SARFA was a breakaway from Provo members of Sth Armagh Brigade who went on to be leading members of INLA. This atrocity had nothing to do with the people of Ballymurphy and it is extremely disrespectful to decent working class people of West Belfast for you to suggest so.

No one said anything differently but republican supporters accusing the British army of genocide is cheap when there was republican militia going around doing the same thing to normal people on the street.

gurramok

lugha wrote: »

If the OP really is driven by a desire to address an injustice deficit from those troubled times, then he should be demanding justice for all those wronged on all sides. And the logical consequence of that is that those released under GFA should be returned to complete their sentence (let us have a new referendum if necessary) and that every killing in NI, be it by BA forces, or loyalists or republicans to be investigated to the full extent of the law.
I somehow suspect that this would not find favour with him.

Killings of unarmed civilians by the BA were never investigated, particularly the 200 or so in the 70's.

Killings by the IRA\Loyalists were fully investigated and alot of the perpetrators served time for those crimes.

The GFA cannot be reversed so what you propose is a backwards step to a Troubled era.

What you are trying to do is equate the legitimacy of the BA\RUC with the IRA and I believe you do not intentionally want to do that but you do not see what you are doing.

lugha

Fitzerb wrote: »

The people of Ballymurphy are entitled to know why a legitimate government force send to restore peace behaved in this manner.

Well your phrasing above suggests that the victims are expecting the BA might somehow be able to offer some kind of justification for their actions that they could accept. Which of course it not the case. I suspect they want, ideally, that those that perpetrated that wrong be brought before a criminal court and held to account.
And it is perfectly understandable that the families and friends of the victims would want such justice, and be more focused on achieving it that they might be on achieving the same for other victims of injustices.
But my essentially point was about individuals not directly effected by this wrong, or any other in the conflict, complete outsiders, coming along and sticking their oar in, invariably on one side. Their cry that they feel and share the pain of others who were gravely wronged rings very hollow.

Wolfe Tone

lugha wrote: »

The original post appears to be motivated by a genuine abhorrence of a wrong done four decades ago, or it would if you weren’t familiar with the “interesting” views the original poster has offered on other threads here, on for example, the murders of Jean McConville and Gerry McCabe. Read some of these and you will very much get the sense that his abhorrence is more keenly felt when the perpetrators are loyalists or BA forces.
Of course, he is entitled to essentially be a green equivalent to the likes of Willie Frazer but the whole Tone (:P) of that post was that it was not about republican propaganda but a desire that some measure of justice be brought to bear on a great and unique wrong that was perpetrated in the NI conflict.

If the OP really is driven by a desire to address an injustice deficit from those troubled times, then he should be demanding justice for all those wronged on all sides. And the logical consequence of that is that those released under GFA should be returned to complete their sentence (let us have a new referendum if necessary) and that every killing in NI, be it by BA forces, or loyalists or republicans to be investigated to the full extent of the law.
I somehow suspect that this would not find favour with him.

The families dont want people jailed, they want an investigation, and admission by the Brits that those killed where innocent and an apology. Like what happened with bloody sunday.

By all means continue to attack the poster and not the post, or, heres an idea, take the post at face value and offer an opinion on the Ballymurphy massacre and what you think should be done.

And yes, I would support an independent investigation into all atrocities, it needs to happen soon before its too late.

KeithAFC

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

The families dont want people jailed, they want an investigation, and admission by the Brits that those killed where innocent and an apology. Like what happened with bloody sunday.

By all means continue to attack the poster and not the post, or, heres an idea, take the post at face value and offer an opinion on the Ballymurphy massacre and what you think should be done.

And yes, I would support an independent investigation into all atrocities, it needs to happen soon before its too late.

Did some of the bloody sunday families not come out recently and said they want some of the soldiers charged?

lugha

gurramok wrote: »

The GFA cannot be reversed so what you propose is a backwards step to a Troubled era.

I think the prisoner release could possibly be reversed but might be a bad idea politically. And I am not seriously advocating this. I am questioning the motives of some who are rather selective about the wrongs in the NI conflict that deserve a measure of justice.

gurramok wrote: »

What you are trying to do is equate the legitimacy of the BA\RUC with the IRA and I believe you do not intentionally want to do that but you do not see what you are doing.

Not sure what you mean. But for much of their campaign the IRA very much regarded themselves as the legitimate Irish army.

Wolfe Tone

lugha wrote: »

Well your phrasing above suggests that the victims are expecting the BA might somehow be able to offer some kind of justification for their actions that they could accept. Which of course it not the case. I suspect they want, ideally, that those that perpetrated that wrong be brought before a criminal court and held to account.
And it is perfectly understandable that the families and friends of the victims would want such justice, and be more focused on achieving it that they might be on achieving the same for other victims of injustices.
But my essentially point was about individuals not directly effected by this wrong, or any other in the conflict, complete outsiders, coming along and sticking their oar in, invariably on one side. Their cry that they feel and share the pain of others who were gravely wronged rings very hollow.

This is from the campaign website, set up by the families.

Campaign Demands

The horrific catalogue of events in Ballymurphy between 9th and 11th August 1971 have remained hidden from public knowledge and focus for almost 40 years.

The victims and their familes have never received public recognition or legal redress. With a process of transition from conflict to peace now underway and in an effort to put closure of the events, the families demand:

1. Independent international investigation examining the circumstances surrounding all of the deaths

2. The British government to issue a statement of innocence

3. The British government to issue a public apology

gurramok

lugha wrote: »

I think the prisoner release could possibly be reversed but might be a bad idea politically. And I am not seriously advocating this. I am questioning the motives of some who are rather selective about the wrongs in the NI conflict that deserve a measure of justice.

Who are you directing that at? A political party perhaps? Most of Ballymurphy has probably voted SF in numerous general elections so don't be surprised if a SF representative is on the case, it does not make the case illegitimate.

lugha wrote: »

Not sure what you mean. But for much of their campaign the IRA very much regarded themselves as the legitimate Irish army.

They are not regarded by you or the British\Irish govts as legitimate. Giving them equality with the actions of the BA is giving the IRA legitimacy, you do not want that i'm sure.

Fitzerb

lugha wrote: »

Well your phrasing above suggests that the victims are expecting the BA might somehow be able to offer some kind of justification for their actions that they could accept. Which of course it not the case. I suspect they want, ideally, that those that perpetrated that wrong be brought before a criminal court and held to account.
And it is perfectly understandable that the families and friends of the victims would want such justice, and be more focused on achieving it that they might be on achieving the same for other victims of injustices.
But my essentially point was about individuals not directly effected by this wrong, or any other in the conflict, complete outsiders, coming along and sticking their oar in, invariably on one side. Their cry that they feel and share the pain of others who were gravely wronged rings very hollow.

Not sure if your post is suggesting that if my neighbour gets shot and because I am not directly effected that I should keep my oar out. If that was the case the world would be a very injust place.

Fitzerb

KeithAFC wrote: »

No one said anything differently but republican supporters accusing the British army of genocide is cheap when there was republican militia going around doing the same thing to normal people on the street.

My post was not to suggest that the British Army had a policy of genocide. It was that the loyalist neighbours had a policy to burn out and kill if necessary Catholics from the Ballymurphy and Ardoyne area. It was the job of the British Army to protect them from the attacks

lugha

Fitzerb wrote: »

Not sure if your post is suggesting that if my neighbour gets shot and because I am not directly effected that I should keep my oar out. If that was the case the world would be a very injust place.

No I am no suggesting that. I am suggesting that if two of your neighbours were shot and you were only abhorred by the shooting of the one that shared your political view point, then you couldn't with any credibility claim that your concern was primarily about injustice.

Wolfe Tone

lugha wrote: »

No I am no suggesting that. I am suggesting that if two of your neighbours were shot and you were only abhorred by the shooting of the one that shared your political view point, then you couldn't with any credibility claim that your concern was primarily about injustice.

lugha, why dont you tell us what you would like to see done with regard to this atrocity.

lugha

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

lugha, why dont you tell us what you would like to see done with regard to this atrocity.

I would not focus on any one atrocity. I would devise a framework that would try to find a common way of dealing with all the injustices on all sides. Criminal proceeding probably cannot be successfully brought it most cases so perhaps some kind of truth commission might be considered.
Personally, I think it is best if the attitude of the general populace (e.g. Southern boys like me and you!) is to accept that terrible things were done in the past and draw a line under it. Of course it is understandable if the relatives and friends continue to seek justice or redress for the particular wrongs done to them. But for the rest of us, if we are going to get involved at all then we shouldn't be lining up with the victims on one side only. Or if we do, then we should fess up that we are playing politics and not pretend our primary concern is to see justice done.

Fitzerb

lugha wrote: »

I would not focus on any one atrocity. I would devise a framework that would try to find a common way of dealing with all the injustices on all sides. Criminal proceeding probably cannot be successfully brought it most cases so perhaps some kind of truth commission might be considered.

Firstly, I think your point is fair.

Unfortunately I cannot see an easy way of devising a framework to consider all of the atrocities that occurred. And there lies the problem. Which terrorist act is more deserving of an enquiry over another act?

I think to open you enquiries for all the acts of terrorism would only reignite issues and risk a breakdown in the already fragile but vital peace process.

However we must recognise the difference between the BA and terrorist organisations if we are to learn from the mistakes of the past. The BA were the people who were entrusted to ensure an even implementation of justice. Not only did they fail in applying that fairness of justice but they purposely applied acts of injustice upon the nationalist community and such actions only prolonged the suffering.

Perhaps a truth commission of sorts might help. My own view is that the people from the terrorist organisations should come clean and admit to what happened and who was involved. Those involved should be free from prosecution but should make themselves available to meet the immediate relatives of the victims. Such meeting should take place in a controlled environment and should only happen at the request of the victim’s family. Once you confront the monster of your thoughts and emotions it can be easier to move on. Sometimes the bitterness is not knowing why or not knowing that the person who perpetrated the crime is remorseful.

In relation to the crimes committed by the legitimate forces of the British I would like to see an independent investigation into their crimes and especially the crime of 1 Para who were involved in both Bloody Sunday and Ballymurphy. It can be no coincidence that they were involved in both. If as I suspect that they are found to have behaved outside of the rules of the British Army then the 1 Para should be disbanded forever.

Personally, I think it is best if the attitude of the general populace (e.g. Southern boys like me and you!) is to accept that terrible things were done in the past and draw a line under it. Of course it is understandable if the relatives and friends continue to seek justice or redress for the particular wrongs done to them. But for the rest of us, if we are going to get involved at all then we shouldn't be lining up with the victims on one side only. Or if we do, then we should fess up that we are playing politics and not pretend our primary concern is to see justice done.

You are right to suggest that the majority of people want to move on and in fairness to young people this is no bad thing. We cannot live forever in the past and it can cloud your thinking. Having said that I also recognise my own weakness in that I find it hard to move on and to forgive the actions of the British Government and its agents in Ireland. Perhaps if the Queen were to visit Arbour Hill and lay a wreath at the graves of the 1916 leaders and recognise the right of Irish people to aspire to a republic through democratic means I might get a sense of a new beginning. I won’t hold my breath. I feel (for me) to move on without such a recognition from the British would be to disrespect the men and women who made the ultimate sacrifice for the freedom of our Country.

bonkey

I've deleted a chunk of posts which were taking the thread to a completely different topic.

Folks...threads are easy to start. If you want to discuss something other then the OP, then have the courtesy to start a thread for it. If you feel its related, then by all means post (once) in the "parent thread" (here, in this case) to draw people's attention to it.

wolfpawnat

No inquest because exactly like the Saville report, it will cost the British millions of pounds and they looked bad to the world as it was reported they shot dead 14 peaceful protesters.

Every person who lost a family member deserves answers, if only so they can move on! Though very much a republican I don't think any family should be left with wondering who killed their family and where the body is!

It is one thing killing soldiers, but innocent men interred and tortured, mothers blown to bits and children shot needs to be truly put into our islands terrible past, and the ONLY way to do that is to give their families the justice they deserve. At this stage I think the only way to do that is for each group just to say what they did, and where the bodies are and since the British Soldiers are above prison sentences, everyone should be!

UglyBolloxFace

KeithAFC wrote: »

I thought everyone had moved on? Still no justice for the Claudy boming either. 9 dead. Also, i doubt the British government will come out and investigate the Ballymurphy massacre after the whole Bloody Sunday thing.

Also, kingsmill. Another one which was just sweeped under the carpet. And on and on. We will never get the full truth anyway.

You are seriously the most insensitive, purposely antagonistic poster I have ever come across.

You love Her Majesty and dislike the Republic...we get it FFS.

Bottle_of_Smoke

I think we'd be more likely to get the truth if complete immunity was granted to republicans/loyalists and state forces alike.

At the moment republicans/loyalists will not tell the truth because they'll get sent to prison and have to wait 2 years to get out under the terms of the GFA

If that was taken away families could get the truth. Sure the perpetrators wouldn't get locked up but what's the point in giving them a joke 2 year sentence.

Never know we might even get Gerry to admit he was in the IRA.

aDeener

gurramok wrote: »

The IRA\"insert Republican organisation" were not acting as agents of the Irish govt.

The British Army were acting as agents of the British govt who are an elected sovereign govt. Big difference.

there's a wall in this thread and i'm afraid that's what you're talking to

aDeener

KeithAFC wrote: »

Did some of the bloody sunday families not come out recently and said they want some of the soldiers charged?

and what exactly would be wrong with that? :rolleyes:

they committed cold blooded murder. even with your ridiculously tinted glasses you can see that? or actually you probably cant can you owen?

RandomName2

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

What about the families of the the victims of the Ballymurphy massacre? Do they not deserve the truth too?

After 40 years this is more a historical matter, rather than legal.

Unfortunately something like this gets bound up in political sentiment (i.e. if you feel that Bloody Sunday was wrong you should at least tacitly support the IRA).

However, in any of the spectaculars or incidents or atrocities that occurred during the Troubles, it is easy to see where the majority of blame in each case lies. Clearly the British Army were in the wrong in this context, notwithstanding any possible extenuating circumstances.

Where more can one go than that? A legal inquiry of undefined cost and length and with no likely prosecutions and perhaps even consensus?

When the Good Friday Agreement released convicted terrorists and murders for the sake of peace, maybe the time had come forget about justice for long standing grievances.

Wolfe Tone

RandomName2 wrote: »

After 40 years this is more a historical matter, rather than legal.

Unfortunately something like this gets bound up in political sentiment (i.e. if you feel that Bloody Sunday was wrong you should at least tacitly support the IRA).

However, in any of the spectaculars or incidents or atrocities that occurred during the Troubles, it is easy to see where the majority of blame in each case lies. Clearly the British Army were in the wrong in this context, notwithstanding any possible extenuating circumstances.

Where more can one go than that? A legal inquiry of undefined cost and length and with no likely prosecutions and perhaps even consensus?

When the Good Friday Agreement released convicted terrorists and murders for the sake of peace, maybe the time had come forget about justice for long standing grievances.

They deserve the same recognition as the bloody sunday victims, a pronouncement by the British government that they were innocent people murdered and an apology for such. Of course if you don't feel a investigation is necessary as the facts are already established, excellent, I hope the British govt share your view and will stop pretending that Bloody Sunday was an annolomy, and will finally stop trying to shove this under the carpet.

KeithAFC

and what exactly would be wrong with that?

they committed cold blooded murder. even with your ridiculously tinted glasses you can see that? or actually you probably cant can you owen?

Owen? No.

All im saying is if you want ex army officers to go to jail now, then you have to put ex UVF and ex PIRA members back into prison. Many of them say it as a war and awful things happened. But thats the truth. Can't have it both ways.

KeithAFC

UglyBolloxFace wrote: »

You are seriously the most insensitive, purposely antagonistic poster I have ever come across.

You love Her Majesty and dislike the Republic...we get it FFS.

We hear it all the time from Ian Paisley Jr, Gerry Adams, Martin Mcguinness etc about moving on and leaving the past in the past. The Saville report into Bloody Sunday seems to have put the nail in the coffin that respect of leaving that whole period in the past.

It doesn't matter what you or i think.

Elmer Blooker

KeithAFC wrote: »

I thought everyone had moved on? Still no justice for the Claudy boming either. 9 dead. Also, i doubt the British government will come out and investigate the Ballymurphy massacre after the whole Bloody Sunday thing.

Also, kingsmill. Another one which was just sweeped under the carpet. And on and on. We will never get the full truth anyway.

The Kingsmill massacre was in retaliation for the murders of 3 members of the Reavey family and 3 members of the O'Dowd family the previous day by a UVF/UDR death squad. (No one remembers the Reaveys or O'Dowds now)
Atrocities were carried out by both sides.

KeithAFC

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

The Kingsmill massacre was in retaliation for the murders of 3 members of the Reavey family and 3 members of the O'Dowd family the previous day by a UVF/UDR death squad. (No one remembers the Reaveys or O'Dowds now)
Atrocities were carried out by both sides.

No one said there wasn't.

jmayo

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

The Kingsmill massacre was in retaliation for the murders of 3 members of the Reavey family and 3 members of the O'Dowd family the previous day by a UVF/UDR death squad. (No one remembers the Reaveys or O'Dowds now)
Atrocities were carried out by both sides.

Very true attrocities were committed by both sides.
It is worse when those are committed by state forces and under the probable tacit approval of an elected government.
Because it was an attrocity carried out by state forces, it should have been investigated with necessary prosecutions followed.
That should have been done years ago when it could have shown the nationalists of Northern Ireland that the government and state apparutus were fair minded and interested in justice.
Sadly as can be seen from Bloody sunday, the British government were more interested in protecting their own soldiers rather than getting to the truth which actually might have taken some of the heat out of the whole conflict.

Of course both sides were fighting a dirty war and both were willing to go to any length to win.
Neither would accept responsiblity for their actions even if one of them was a state.

I don't think the current government would be willing to undertake an enquiry into the role of a previous administration and the role of it's own military forces and yet not open or reopen investigations into attrocities carried out by the other side.
They don't want to drag any skeletons out of the closet and sadly the innocent victims may never get justice.
The weird thing is how little publicity has ever surrounded this in comparison to Bloody Sunday.

But saying all that people can't go down the road of claiming the attrocities carried out by the other side deserves to be investigated more than ones carried out by their own.

You either do all or nothing and maybe the idea along the lines of South Africa should have been followed to try and get at the real truth.