lee enfield rifles

tommyboy26

hi lads

i have a couple of questions on lee enfield rifles....

1: can you mount a scope on them?
2: what is the .303 round like i.e accuracy,distance, does it kick much,price and the availably of the round?
3: any body using them for hunting?

the two im looking at are


no1 mark3 rifle






or the no4 mark1 rifle



if these are no good i would like something in a 6.5x55 or if you have another suggestion along the same lines



thanks in advance


tommy:D

Mr.Flibble

Yes, you can mount a scope, but you'll need a dedicated mount. Also, apart from a few specialised cases, a real afficionado of these rifles wouldn't want to, so I wonder if they are the best choice for you.

The .303 and the Lee Enfield action are a long way from current state-of-the-art accuracy technology. They can be got to give good practical accuracy, although it may require a bit of work and know-how. They are superbly accurate for what they were designed for, engaging enemies of the British Empire at moderate to very close range. Distance wise, it has plenty of power for game up to deer at any sensible range.

The stock design isn't the best for recoil abatement, but recoil isn't really a problem except possibly in the carbine versions like the No.5.

Ammo is generally easily available, often at quite good prices.

I'd say they're used less and less for hunting nowadays, but there has been a mighty amount of hunting done with them over the years. If you're going to hunt with one please use proper hunting bullets, i.e. not military FMJ.

cra

I am in the process of buying an SMLE at the moment and I intend to use it for hunting and a bit of messing around. Ammo is available from Fingal sports but it is not suitable for hunting But hunting ammo is available, I know remington have a good hunting round for 303.

As far as accuraccy goes they are reasonable and some are more accurate than others. The Carl Gustav 6.5 is a more accurate rifle and hunting ammo is readily available so maybe it might suit you better.

Each to there own I prefer the Enfeild

rowa

i believe the way that target shooters used to improve accuracy in the le was to have the barrel set back by two threads and have the chamber recut to tighter dimensions then the original military chamber. battle rifles weren't designed with accuracy in mind , reliability came first.

newmug

I thought any ex-army weapon was banned? If not, could you get an FN FAL legally?

It wasn't me!

newmug wrote: »

I thought any ex-army weapon was banned? If not, could you get an FN FAL legally?

No, because it's full auto. A semi-auto version would be licensable (And I know of at least one) and it'd be a restricted rifle.

Tackleberrywho

I killed several deer with one of these, awkward in the field, horrible trigger and no bipod though!

newmug

It wasn't me! wrote: »

No, because it's full auto. A semi-auto version would be licensable (And I know of at least one) and it'd be a restricted rifle.

What about a semi-auto bren?

It wasn't me!

newmug wrote: »

What about a semi-auto bren?

Still restricted, but yes, if it's semi-auto, it would be licensable.

tommyboy26

thanks for all the advice lads. im looking for a third rifle just for plinking and hunting have a .308 target rifle and a .17 {when i get licence back:rolleyes:}for rabbits and foxes so wanted something different so any suggestions would be welcome



tommy:D

FISMA

Given my love of Mausers and all things German, I must admit, that the Enfield was probably the best bolt action of WWII.

I love the #4Mk2, they are extremely accurate. Even out of the war chest in the Armory after 50years, they shoot groups on par with some of today's hunting rifles. It never ceases to amaze me how much better, quality control wise, war time guns are as compared to peace time.

If the one you are getting is in new condition, perhaps, an un-issued one, then I would, as someone else has mentioned it, consider it a sin to drill and tap one of these. Perhaps, there's a bolt on side mount for these.

However, the peep sights on these rifles will be more than fine for 100ya. With a bit of practice, you'll be able to center a dinner plate at 300ya and make the shot. Lads are far to dependent on scopes these days.

You know your gun is a war gun for at least two reasons: (1) the butt of the gun is metal. That's going to hurt if you shoot 100 rounds or so. However, there are recoil pads that can be used. Why have metal? During war, if you ran out of ammo, in close quarter combat, the butt end of the gun is now your weapon.

Also, notice how much wood at the front is covered? Again, if you were using your bayonet, you wouldn't want to grab hot metal, would you?

I would not hesitate to buy one. I would use it in a heartbeat for the field.

What condition are you looking at? Is it re-arsenaled?

303 is a great round. I am a 30-06 guy myself, but would not hesitate to use a 303.

Do you like military triggers or the hunting triggers? This trigger will allow you to pick up some slack whereas hunting triggers should have no slack, instead break like glass.

Have you looked into a Swiss Schmidt Rubin K31?

Go to the local dealer and price some ammo as well.

Slan

gbee

Circa 1970 FCA standard issue, 100 yards five bulls and I was not the best shot.

For their time they were quite accurate, in fact they remained marksmen's weapon of choice for a long time, even after FA weapons were introduced.

I only fired military rounds and the kick back was good and strong, fail to hold and fire with due care would give one a sore shoulder or even a good bruise, but its was certainly manageable, even for snap shooting [my favourite ].

tommyboy26

FISMA wrote: »

Given my love of Mausers and all things German, I must admit, that the Enfield was probably the best bolt action of WWII.

I love the #4Mk2, they are extremely accurate. Even out of the war chest in the Armory after 50years, they shoot groups on par with some of today's hunting rifles. It never ceases to amaze me how much better, quality control wise, war time guns are as compared to peace time.

If the one you are getting is in new condition, perhaps, an un-issued one, then I would, as someone else has mentioned it, consider it a sin to drill and tap one of these. Perhaps, there's a bolt on side mount for these.

However, the peep sights on these rifles will be more than fine for 100ya. With a bit of practice, you'll be able to center a dinner plate at 300ya and make the shot. Lads are far to dependent on scopes these days.

You know your gun is a war gun for at least two reasons: (1) the butt of the gun is metal. That's going to hurt if you shoot 100 rounds or so. However, there are recoil pads that can be used. Why have metal? During war, if you ran out of ammo, in close quarter combat, the butt end of the gun is now your weapon.

Also, notice how much wood at the front is covered? Again, if you were using your bayonet, you wouldn't want to grab hot metal, would you?

I would not hesitate to buy one. I would use it in a heartbeat for the field.

What condition are you looking at? Is it re-arsenaled?

303 is a great round. I am a 30-06 guy myself, but would not hesitate to use a 303.

Do you like military triggers or the hunting triggers? This trigger will allow you to pick up some slack whereas hunting triggers should have no slack, instead break like glass.

Have you looked into a Swiss Schmidt Rubin K31?

Go to the local dealer and price some ammo as well.

Slan

i have never fired an old rifle i just saw the enfield on www.shoot.ie i assume they are new and i liked the look of it but donnt think open sights would appeal to me


tommy

Tackleberrywho

My Swedish Mauser was 1910, it still grouped well with Lapua Ammo.

Although I had a scope on it

rowa

the last .303 enfields made were (apart from india) for the irish army and are known as "irish contract" enfields , they were never supplied to the army and were exported to america in large numbers.
a lot of the no.4 enfields you'll see will have "ftr" and a date on the left side of the action and this means "factory thorough repair" , they were refurbished at the factories and put into storage just in case there was another war. the best wartime no.4's were supposed to have been built at the longbranch factory in toronto canada.

Tackleberrywho

rowa wrote: »

the last .303 enfields made were (apart from india) for the irish army and are known as "irish contract" enfields , they were never supplied to the army and were exported to america in large numbers.
a lot of the no.4 enfields you'll see will have "ftr" and a date on the left side of the action and this means "factory thorough repair" , they were refurbished at the factories and put into storage just in case there was another war. the best wartime no.4's were supposed to have been built at the longbranch factory in toronto canada.

I held a Canadian one in my hands, it omly had battle sights, no graduated sights

Lovely rifle for €350 at the time though

Manic Moran

the last .303 enfields made were (apart from india) for the irish army and are known as "irish contract" enfields , they were never supplied to the army and were exported to america in large numbers.

From what I can gather, the most modern British-made rifles were No4 Mk2s in the UF-55 sequence, they were bought for the RAF and held in war reserve for a while. I own one of them now.

2: what is the .303 round like i.e accuracy,distance, does it kick much,price and the availably of the round?

Doesn't kick anywhere near as much as a Mosin does...
It's accurate enough, but bear in mind, it's measured in Minute of Man, not Minute of Angle. It's a combat rifle.

NTM

BELOWaverageIQ

"It's accurate enough, but bear in mind, it's measured in Minute of Man, not Minute of Angle. It's a combat rifle."

"Minute of man"..... That's a new one on me, what exactly is that ?

It wasn't me!

BELOWaverageIQ wrote: »

"It's accurate enough, but bear in mind, it's measured in Minute of Man, not Minute of Angle. It's a combat rifle."

"Minute of man"..... That's a new one on me, what exactly is that ?

It means it's designed to shoot people, and does so well, rather than shooting tiny groups.

The Enfields are nice enough. Triggers are rough and gritty, but you get used to it easy enough, buttplates are rough, but it's not the worst kicking cartridge in the world. Stocks aren't particularly nice for controlling the recoil, but again, you'd be okay. It offers plenty of power for deer-hunting, and I'm sure you could find ammo for it, though might need to order it in. Plenty of cheap FMJ stuff for practising with too. If you can get a model with the peep rearsight, you should be okay to shoot out to at least 150-180 yards on deer, just bear in mind the tricks low light can play on your eyes when using iron sights. If you can scope it, you should be okay to about 200 yards. The rifles will typically do about two to three inch groups at a hundred, in my experience. I'm sure some shoot better than that though.

gbee

It wasn't me! wrote: »

It means it's designed to shoot people, and does so well, rather than shooting tiny groups.

Since yesterday I was wrecking my brain trying to remember. We were told to set it to certain marks already on the sights, representing 100/200/300 yards.

Yes, I see, I was good at the snap shoot, I always hit that target and usually 'killed it' but occasionally only wounded it in the outstretched arm.

SAKO_FTR

You can buy a scope mount for the No4 that replaces the rear sight and locks in just in front of the stripper loading guides (which are redundant when you mount the scope)
lee enfield mount.jpg

Works well but you would need to raise the comb height really, IMO.

Savage93

tommyboy26 wrote: »

hi lads

i have a couple of questions on lee enfield rifles....

1: can you mount a scope on them?
2: what is the .303 round like i.e accuracy,distance, does it kick much,price and the availably of the round?
3: any body using them for hunting?

the two im looking at are


no1 mark3 rifle






or the no4 mark1 rifle



if these are no good i would like something in a 6.5x55 or if you have another suggestion along the same lines



thanks in advance


tommy:D

Comes with graduated battle sights, dropped down have peep sight out to 200 yards if memory serves correct, pop up graduated sight with "screw" type set up , out to 1200 yards, again if memory serves correct, "cheaperthandirt.com do piccatinny rail for scope mounting on .303.
In my day i could "kill" out to 400 yards with battle sights , never used one with scope.

Brass buttplate says "treat me with respect" I have fired 150 rounds at a time with No4 Mk2 in FCA days, bruised shoulder, But I'd expect the same from a modern .308 with the same rate of fire. not sure of current ammo prices, but available from a variety of sources, Remington do hollow point suitable for hunting, FMJ is not suitable for hunting.

These are not new,
No1 Mk3 could be 80/90 years old, No 4 Mk1 probably WW2 vintage, issues is what condition the bore is in.

No4 mk2 is the last made, best from Fazakerly plant Liverpool, made up to 1953, some of these were reconfigured into 7.62 (.308) and used by British Army and police forces as sniper rifles into the 1980s. Never sen a No4 Mk2 for sale here, Try VCRAI website for more info.

rowa

spares are easy to come by too http://www.efdrifles.com/index.php

FISMA

Here are a few mounts.
http://www.gunaccessories.com/MilitaryScopeMounts/Enfield/index.asp

Also, an image, albeit of a carbine, however, still gives you an idea.

Manic Moran

No4 mk2 is the last made, best from Fazakerly plant Liverpool, made up to 1953

1955.

It means it's designed to shoot people, and does so well, rather than shooting tiny groups.

What he said.

It's not a precision shooter, it's designed to hit a man-sized target at typical combat ranges. Although, obviously, the more accurate the combat rifle, the smaller-exposed a target you can shoot at longer ranges, you have to balance out the ease and cost of production. (You also have factors such as allowing for peripheral vision, resulting in a benefit of a larger rear aperture vs decrease in accuracy). The cost and effort involved in producing a rifle that can do headshots at 400 yards simply wasn't worth it to a military as a standard line rifle.

NTM

rowa

The fazakerly machinery was sent out to ishapore arsenal in india, the fazakerly factory was notorious for industrial unrest and the government grew tired of it , the bolt action was old hat anyhoo and it was time for a change.

gbee

Manic Moran wrote: »

The cost and effort involved in producing a rifle that can do headshots at 400 yards simply wasn't worth it to a military as a standard line rifle. NTM

On the mark. As an exercise one day [back in the 70's] our platoon did a 400 yard shoot, one or two hits was about it on the standard roll ups.

Green Mist

Hello Tommyboy,

In answer to your query.

1. Yes you can mount a scope on a lee enfield rifle. I used an S&K mount comments@scopemounts.com which was purpose designed to use the mounting position for the adjustable rear sight and uses a wedge nut and hex head bolt arrangement to grip the charger bridge. It goes in with no gun smithing and can be removed leaving no tell tale marks. Mine required only a little work with a dremmel to remove a little shaving from the wedge nut as it fouled the bolt head preventing removal for cleaning. All in all i find it a great mount.

2. It is a good accurate firearm to begin with. At 100m and with scope I can put in a 1 - 2" group, bench rested, no back bag. I have shot every kind of ammo i could find in Ireland - remington, hornady, privi partizan, milsurp, but find the sellier & bellot 50 rnd bulk pack the best for target shooting. With any full bore you can expect to pay hansomely for ammo, so develop relations with a good dealer, most will discount for bulk.

3. I have hunted deer with the lee enfield (scoped). It is a rifle you could carry all day and not get too concerned if you scratched it, as a little rub with linseed oil brings it back to life.

All in all, I would give the LE close consideration, as its a solid and dependable rifle and easy to service and source spares. Importantly its popularity ensures you could resell it if changing, down the line.

Lastly, if it hurts your shoulder, your not holding it right sonny !

Hope it helps, enjoy.

Manic Moran

I have a new-found respect for my Smelly.

Was at the Army range yesterday, shooting our annual qual. After we were done with the Army issue gear, the opportunity arose to open the boots of the cars and pull out whatever we brought.

The small arms team were on the range, they had their sniper rifles and whatnot set up with iron targets (man silhouette) up to 600m. Never having shot the No4Mk2 beyond 100m before, and with the minimum setting at 200m, I picked out the 150m target that was in front of me, and started plinking. All hits. Then rapid fire at the 50m target, 7 hits in about 12 second. Cool, thinks I.

Chap next to me is trying out a new rifle, he's done well at the 200m target, moves to the 500m. Spotter is calling trace.

"Miss. High and left...... Miss... Shoulder high, two forms left.... Miss, lost...."

For Ss and Gs, I ask "Which is the 500m target?"

"Echo, it's just to the right of the '6'"

I peer down. I can barely make out the distortion in the background which is the target. Twiddle the rear sight to the 500m mark, and take up an aim at what I hope is the silhouette. Send a round downrange.

"Hit"

"Huh? You're joking"

"No Sir, centre mass hit."

"OK, I'm going to call it good for the day. See you next time.."

NTM

It wasn't me!

They worked then and they work now.

Sparks

"OK, I'm going to call it good for the day. See you next time.."

Love that

harmoniums

Manic Moran wrote: »

I have a new-found respect for my Smelly.

Was at the Army range yesterday, shooting our annual qual. After we were done with the Army issue gear, the opportunity arose to open the boots of the cars and pull out whatever we brought.

The small arms team were on the range, they had their sniper rifles and whatnot set up with iron targets (man silhouette) up to 600m. Never having shot the No4Mk2 beyond 100m before, and with the minimum setting at 200m, I picked out the 150m target that was in front of me, and started plinking. All hits. Then rapid fire at the 50m target, 7 hits in about 12 second. Cool, thinks I.

Chap next to me is trying out a new rifle, he's done well at the 200m target, moves to the 500m. Spotter is calling trace.

"Miss. High and left...... Miss... Shoulder high, two forms left.... Miss, lost...."

For Ss and Gs, I ask "Which is the 500m target?"

"Echo, it's just to the right of the '6'"

I peer down. I can barely make out the distortion in the background which is the target. Twiddle the rear sight to the 500m mark, and take up an aim at what I hope is the silhouette. Send a round downrange.

"Hit"

"Huh? You're joking"

"No Sir, centre mass hit."

"OK, I'm going to call it good for the day. See you next time.."

NTM

Was that the one I sold you?
I could do about 2 inches at 100 yards with that rifle (an Irish contract BTW lads) so 10 inches at 500 yards would be fine for center mass shooting.

Manic Moran

Not an Irish Contract rifle. The serial number is out of the range. From what I can gather online, it's former RAF contingency stock. No matter. It's still a good rifle.

NTM

harmoniums

Manic Moran wrote: »

Not an Irish Contract rifle. The serial number is out of the range. From what I can gather online, it's former RAF contingency stock. No matter. It's still a good rifle.

NTM

Oh yeah , the UF -55 one?

Manic Moran

Correct.

NTM

FISMA

Manic Moran wrote: »

I have a new-found respect for my Smelly.

Smelly?

I called my SMLE smiley! It always makes me smile when I pull the trigger:)

As for the Irish contract, weren't there a few - one delivered and one not? What are the numbers for the ones that were delivered.

I am looking to pick up [in the States] a new/mint/unissued condition No4 MKII. I would prefer one that was not re-arseneled. Any ideas?

Manic Moran

FISMA wrote: »

Smelly?

I called my SMLE smiley! It always makes me smile when I pull the trigger:)

As for the Irish contract, weren't there a few - one delivered and one not? What are the numbers for the ones that were delivered.

I am not sure about the delivered/not distinction, but the ones made under the contract were PF309348 to PF359347.

NTM

harmoniums

FISMA wrote: »

Smelly?

I called my SMLE smiley! It always makes me smile when I pull the trigger:)

As for the Irish contract, weren't there a few - one delivered and one not? What are the numbers for the ones that were delivered.

I am looking to pick up [in the States] a new/mint/unissued condition No4 MKII. I would prefer one that was not re-arseneled. Any ideas?

I've got one that's in the correct range that MM stated.
I think it may have been issued in Ireland due to the very tight arsenal liek repair I see on the buttstock.
It looks very similar to buttstock repairs I've seen on FF marked No1s
The ones that look brand new can be found on gunbroker and are getting about $800 a piece.







you can have that one for $400

nogie11

I have a no4 mk1 British and have been shooting it for bout a year now. Yes you can put a scope on one without tapping it..s&k do mounts thats require only removing the appature sight and using the existing holes to attach the mounts without any alterations. The are supposed the be excellent for not moving. I myself prefer to shoot the way the Enfield was meant to be used and that is by using the battle sight at say 300y.Its good to challenge both the rifle and yourself. Scopes are for girls lol.

tac foley

It wasn't me! wrote: »

Still restricted, but yes, if it's semi-auto, it would be licensable.

The problem with a BREN is that it looks, y'know, a bit like something that the military might use.......:rolleyes:

Harmoniums has one, but he lives in the state south of Oregon.

tac

tac foley

nogie11 wrote: »

I have a no4 mk1 British and have been shooting it for bout a year now. Yes you can put a scope on one without tapping it..s&k do mounts thats require only removing the appature sight and using the existing holes to attach the mounts without any alterations. The are supposed the be excellent for not moving. I myself prefer to shoot the way the Enfield was meant to be used and that is by using the battle sight at say 300y.Its good to challenge both the rifle and yourself. Scopes are for girls lol.

The sight, as you have noted, is made ONLY for the No4 rifle, and cannot be fitted to any earlier version of the Lee-Enfield because of the design of the action. B-Square also make a no-drill scope mount for the No4 rifle of all marks.

A target-type diopter sight from A J Parker or Parker-Hale CAN be fitted to the earlier models, but it involves cutting away part of the stock and drilling holes where Mr Lee did not feel they were necessary.

BTW, I'd like you to tell my Uncle Geoff, a sniper in the PPCLI like his brother, Tom, and great fan of the SCOPED N04[T] that he is a girl.

As for hunting ammunition in .303Brit - 174gr SP is made by PPU.

Accuracy with ANY Lee-Enfield is a touchy subject, as the rifle itslef is VERY susceptible to minor changes in temperature and stock pressure on the complex and multi-piece woodwork. It's a bit of a black art, as the cost of accurizing an older L-E by THE specialists, Fulton of Bisley, would testify - £500 is about average, and needs to be redone every couple of years shooting to maintain the accuracy they put into what was originally a 4MOA rifle. Yes, that's a FOUR inch group at 100 yards - the manufacturers' accuracy standards. Anything less, and it was usually set aside for conversion into a sniper version.

tac
vcrai.com

PS - the 6.5x55 Swede is a sweet shooter, with two bullet weights - 140 and 120gr readily available for hunting from numerous makers, but again, for an ex-military rifle or carbine, there is NO easy-fit scope mount without carving away wood and/or drilling holes.

tac foley

tommyboy26 wrote: »

hi lads

i have a couple of questions on lee enfield rifles....

1: can you mount a scope on them?
2: what is the .303 round like i.e accuracy,distance, does it kick much,price and the availably of the round?
3: any body using them for hunting?

the two im looking at are


no1 mark3 rifle






or the no4 mark1 rifle



if these are no good i would like something in a 6.5x55 or if you have another suggestion along the same lines



thanks in advance


tommy:D

Not sure what you mean by 'no good'. About 48 million Lee-designed rifles and carbines of one kind or another were made over a period of almost seventy years, equipping the armed forces of the British Empire, and then, the British Commonwealth [and the PDF]. So what would you call 'good'?

tac