Great news from Northern Ireland on Hare Coursing

TippFan77

Great to hear that Sinn Fein's attempt to overturn the NI Assembly's ban on hare coursing up north has failed.

Its shameful move was rejected by 53 votes to 33...so the ban remains.

Let's hope a similar ban is enacted in the Republic to end this cowardly and cruel "sport"!

planetX

That's great news - and yet another reason to steer clear of Sinn Fein.
If only we could do the same down here.:mad:

ISDW

Ah man, who can I vote for in the election? I was kind of swinging towards Sinn Fein, after the labour nonsense with banning certain breeds, and FF and FG just don't inspire me at all. Is there any political party on this island that is decent?

sligopark

hold on - I read that hares are preserved and bred by those coursing, the coursing dogs are now muzzled, no hares are killed and as such is like folk stocking their own club lakes with trout on a catch and release basis with less cruelty?

Whats the problem?

spank_inferno

sligopark wrote: »

Whats the problem?

Animals cannot rationalise it like that.

The tiny brain of a Hare is not able to see rationalise that a huge dog, 5 times its size baring huge fangs just happens to be muzzled.
All it knows is that its petrefied and in for the chase of its life.

Even without getting bitten the hare can still get mauled if struck or caught by the dog, it being so much larger.

...... and thats one of the many problems with it.

sligopark

spank_inferno wrote: »

Animals cannot rationalise it like that.

perhaps thats the crux of it - you are humanising its experience and extrapolating it to what you feel for it - why not do the same for fishing a lake kept with fish?

why not ban fishing?

planetX

Hares are not domesticated animals, they can't be 'farmed'. And I don't believe for a second they're not still being stolen from all around the country.
The problem is the ugly side of the people who go coursing (what have they trained their dogs on by the way?)

fatmammycat

sligopark wrote: »

perhaps thats the crux of it - you are humanising its experience and extrapolating it to what you feel for it - why not do the same for fishing a lake kept with fish?

why not ban fishing?

Fish don't know they're being fished. It just happens. Hares ( flight animals) are trapped, man handled, used as entertainment, and then 'IF' they survive the coursing- where they are forced to run for their lives- are released'. Seriously, it is barbaric. How can people with actual brains condone such treatment of a shy natural creature.

Feargal as Luimneach

sligopark wrote: »

hold on - I read that hares are preserved and bred by those coursing, the coursing dogs are now muzzled, no hares are killed and as such is like folk stocking their own club lakes with trout on a catch and release basis with less cruelty?

Whats the problem?

Muzzling did help to reduce mortality rates in Hares, but hares still die. Here's a link: http://www.qub.ac.uk/sites/Quercus/Projects/2010/3HarecoursinginIreland/ .( The link is not from an animal welfare site so is not biased). A major cause of death in coursing Hares is capture myopathy.

This is also concern that hares used from coursing when released back into the wild do not breed. Research should be done on this.

The Irish Hare is decreasing in numbers in Ireland, so anything that has an adverse effect on numbers is a cause of concern.

Cherry Blossom

sligopark wrote: »

perhaps thats the crux of it - you are humanising its experience and extrapolating it to what you feel for it

Why is it that people always give this patronising 'you are humanising the animal' speech when all else fails. It seems you completely misuderstand the nature of the hare, what effect do you think a greyhound comming at a hare has on it exactly?

Is it the case that your arguement here is so you can make some justification to yourself for choosing to vote for Sinn Fein?

TippFan77

adrenalinjunkie wrote: »

Why is it that people always give this patronising 'you are humanising the animal' speech when all else fails. It seems you completely misuderstand the nature of the hare, what effect do you think a greyhound comming at a hare has on it exactly?

Is it the case that your arguement here is so you can make some justification to yourself for choosing to vote for Sinn Fein?

Let's not forget...SF was for more than 30 years the political wing of a "movement" that murdered thousands of innocent human beings. So guys...why be surprised if they suddenly decide that it's ok to torture animals?? Hey...the police are still digging up the corpses of those victims they killed for REPORTING crime... that was a crime in the eyes of the killers!!)

Sligo parks' post is typical of the apologist who tries to fudge the issue...tormenting animals for fun is far removed from swiftly killing for food.

Coursing must go the way of other "sport" cruelties...such as badger baiting, cock fighting, and stag huntiung...

Cherry Blossom

I would have assumed their position on hare coursing comes from the fact that they would be heavily supported in NI by the folks involved in it, being one of the traditional Irish 'sports' indulged in by the less well off. This is API though, not politics so don't really want to read any further into it than that .

Discodog

Previous National Coursing Championships have been well covered by the media. This year was different - the only mention was in the traffic reports. The ICC are well aware that Coursing is not good PR. Last year some Swedish students filmed the death of a Hare at the NCC. The ICC offered a huge reward, called in the Guards, & promised that the culprits would be caught. But surprise, surprise it was all hot air from the ICC.

Anyone who has any concept of the way that animals & us experience fear would see that Coursing is cruel. Taking a very nervous animal, from the wild, chasing it with dogs & then releasing it, is bound to have consequences.

This is done purely for pleasure. It serves no other purpose apart from generating betting money. There are hundreds of ways that people can enjoy themselves without torturing animals.

doctor evil

About a year ago SF were against hunting and now they support it, I don't trust any party to not swing to whatever thinks will get them the most votes.

doctor evil

adrenalinjunkie wrote: »

Why is it that people always give this patronising 'you are humanising the animal' speech when all else fails. It seems you completely misuderstand the nature of the hare, what effect do you think a greyhound comming at a hare has on it exactly?

By humanising it you think of it as human being, other animals (we are mammals ourselves) feel some form of emotion but not to the depth and complexity that people do. They are more tied to their instincts and get over things much better than we can (humans have gotten a bit soft since being cavemen). If they did horse riding/meat dairy farming/pet ownership would never have happenned.

Discodog

doctor evil wrote: »

If they did horse riding/meat dairy farming/pet ownership would never have happenned.

Of course it would. Pets have been kept as far back as we have evidence, so for thousands of years.

The old, they don't experience pain & fear like us, argument. Hares, in the wild, never experience anything like being trapped, transported, caged & then chased by dogs. If they have to evade predators they are free to do so rather than being trapped.

Remember the only justification for all of this cruelty is money & entertainment.

sensibleken

The cruelest aspect is how the greyhounds are treated. I recently adopted a greyhound who was used for coarsing, and racing before that. when picked up he was on the verge of death because he was bad at coarsing and racing. Im sure most people are aware of the thousand of dogs killed every year because they are no use at the "sport" they are bred for.

well done NI, I just wish the repiblic was as preogressive (now theres a sentence)

TippFan77

doctor evil wrote: »

By humanising it you think of it as human being, other animals (we are mammals ourselves) feel some form of emotion but not to the depth and complexity that people do. They are more tied to their instincts and get over things much better than we can (humans have gotten a bit soft since being cavemen). If they did horse riding/meat dairy farming/pet ownership would never have happenned.

Let's forget this nonsense about animals not having emotions like ours etc and all that other guff trotted out to make bloodsports look good...whatever about their emotional states, we do know that animals suffer pain, so terrorising them for kicks can't be justified.

If we justify the cruelty of a bloodsport on the basis that animals are so much less clever than we are then where does that leave humans who might be deemed less aware or intelligent or whatever than most other humans? Should we tolerate using them as pawns in a game of terror and suffering also?

Poshknacker

TippFan77 wrote: »

If we justify the cruelty of a bloodsport on the basis that animals are so much less clever than we are then where does that leave humans who might be deemed less aware or intelligent or whatever than most other humans? Should we tolerate using them as pawns in a game of terror and suffering also?

Coursing is organised around the welfare of hares. They are well trained beforehand so they know where the escape is and are not mistreated in any way. It is in fact extremely rare for a hare to be hurt at a coursing meet and a vet is always present.

Discodog

Poshknacker wrote: »

Coursing is organised around the welfare of hares. They are well trained beforehand so they know where the escape is and are not mistreated in any way. It is in fact extremely rare for a hare to be hurt at a coursing meet and a vet is always present.

How do you train a terrified wild Hare ?. Hares have been killed at meets & the long term stress takes it's toll.

If it is not cruel then why does the RSPCA & ISPCA etc oppose it ?.

A Vet was not present in the video of a dying Hare at Clonmel last year.

dahat

As for hare welfare with coursing meets i can vouch for this as i know people who are heavily involved in hare husbandry for the coursing meets local to my area.

Discodog

dahat wrote: »

Sorry,that video was looked at by techno experts and shown to be "fake" if you wish.
The hare looks like it is being tugged by some kind of twine to imitate movement of a struggling hare.

As for hare welfare with coursing meets i can vouch for this as i know people who are heavily involved in hare husbandry for the coursing meets local to my area.

Gosh this is old news & is still totally unproven. I do not wish to resurrect the old thread but where are the prosecutions ?. The ICC assured us that they were imminent, that the video was fake, & they offered a big reward.
As usual it was all hot air, so much so that this year's Championships were almost held in secrecy with little media coverage.

Hare husbandry ?. It's a wild animal not farmed.

dahat

Discodog wrote: »

Gosh this is old news & is still totally unproven. I do not wish to resurrect the old thread but where are the prosecutions ?. The ICC assured us that they were imminent, that the video was fake, & they offered a big reward.
As usual it was all hot air, so much so that this year's Championships were almost held in secrecy with little media coverage.

Hare husbandry ?. It's a wild animal not farmed.

The coursing meeting at Clonmel never got any form of major publicity,this year was no different to others.All the major news/media outlets have never reported from the meeting.i should know as i live locally!
As for the first point,yes,old point as yet unproven,pointless discussing it which was why i went for the ninja edit but you quoted me first!

Discodog

You'll need to be quicker than a Greyhound !

The Nationals always got TV & press coverage. Even the Sunday Times ran an article on this year's non coverage.

dahat

Discodog wrote: »

The Nationals always got TV & press coverage. Even the Sunday Times ran an article on this year's non coverage.

Never once have i seen coverage on RTE,TV3...
I'm sure papers covered a little but in way was it positive or genuine interest of it.
The National meeting brings alot of revenue to the locality and it is hard to see coursing being banned anytime soon,park coursing at least.

Discodog

dahat wrote: »

The National meeting brings alot of revenue to the locality and it is hard to see coursing being banned anytime soon,park coursing at least.

Yep we can't let animal cruelty get in the way of making money. Anyway they are safe with a FG government.

EGAR

Discodog wrote: »

Yep we can't let animal cruelty get in the way of making money. Anyway they are safe with a FG government.

Perhaps...

http://www.indymedia.ie/article/98647

Discodog

Nah there is a lot of money tied up in Coursing.

eoinoleary

eh course fishing????hes eatin away and YANK!!! he gets a hook through his jaw hes removed from the water and has the hook removed and returned to the water!!!! yep thats it... lets ban fishing!!....and horse racing,they get hurt dont they??oh yea and zoo's... lets close them too and allow the the cheetas to run free in their natural habitat (and dont give me this ''their bred in captivity'' crap)...pets at home????release them....catching animals for study reasons???do they not run for their lives as much as the hare??its the same fear for them although we intend to hurt niether of them..ive been coursing...nower near the kind of cruelty ye make it out to be...im a keen game shooter...treat all my pets extremely well...the though of deliberate animal fiting or cruelty repulses me..if i was seeing the levels of cruelty mentioned by some posters i simply would not support coursing...i honestly dont think many coursing fans would..we are not all blood thirsty monsters...i can spendan entire day out with my dog in phesant season and quite happily come way home having shot nothing...if i do well and good hel be skinned and eaten then...its not all about the killing and filling the bag..in fact thats a very small part of it...its about being in the countryside..pick up a magizine..ye might be suprised..

EGAR

And here was me thinking one plucks a pheasant not skin it?

But then again...:D

eoinoleary

EGAR wrote: »

And here was me thinking one plucks a pheasant not skin it?

But then again...:D

theres different methods...depends on what you want off it

Discodog

eoinoleary wrote: »

.. lets ban fishing!!...

The standard response - why not ban something else & leave us to be cruel to Hares.

eoinoleary wrote: »

..and horse racing,they get hurt dont they??

Yes & more needs to be done to make sure that they don't. How about a 20% betting levy that goes totally to Horse Welfare. And whilst we are about it lets have a similar levy to ensure that all Greyhounds are cared for instead of killing more than 10,000 per year

eoinoleary wrote: »

oh yea and zoo's... lets close them too

Most zoos are not like they were & many take part in major conservation projects as well as education.

eoinoleary wrote: »

.im a keen game shooter...treat all my pets extremely well...the though of deliberate animal fiting or cruelty repulses me.

Then don't shoot. Go out enjoy the wildlife without killing it.

No one can justify Coursing because there is no justifiable reason for it to continue. So the standard line is to say don't pick on us ban something else instead.

Some of what you listed can have a beneficial aspect. Coursing only serves to "entertain" those of a certain disposition. If you do not see cruelty in Coursing then you must be blind. You claim to appreciate nature yet you see it as your right to remove wild animals & torment them purely for your entertainment.

Honey-ec

eoinoleary wrote: »

its not all about the killing and filling the bag... its about being in the countryside..

So just go for a hike, then. The countryside and its fauna is not there purely to satisfy your baser instincts.

TippFan77

Poshknacker wrote: »

Coursing is organised around the welfare of hares. They are well trained beforehand so they know where the escape is and are not mistreated in any way. It is in fact extremely rare for a hare to be hurt at a coursing meet and a vet is always present.

Organised around the welfare of hares? They snatch the hares from their natural habitat, transport them away in tiny small boxes, hold them captive for weeks during which time they "train" them to run in straight line, then use them as bait for pairs of hyped-up greyhounds.

The whole game revolves ill-treatment and cruelty, not the welfare of the unfortunate animals. Hares released after a meeting may suffer death from stress myopathy.

The hare can't win, and all this is organised just for a bit of silly gambling and laugh?

Australi banned it, state by state, then Scotland, then England and Wales, then NI. Type in the words hare coursing on Google News and do a search...most of the items are about coursing as the subject of criminal prosecutions and police clampdowns in countries that have banned it. It's a shameful and disgust activity and it's surviving on borrowed time in the R of Ireland.

Have a look at some footage and pics here of this lovely welfare-friendly pastime...

www.banbloodsports.com

Graces7

Poshknacker wrote: »

Coursing is organised around the welfare of hares. They are well trained beforehand so they know where the escape is and are not mistreated in any way. It is in fact extremely rare for a hare to be hurt at a coursing meet and a vet is always present.

This the most *****, &&&&&&, **** post ever.

Is there an award we can give this poster?

Small wonder this "sport" survives if this is the level of thought out there.

Hellrazer

Graces7 wrote: »

This the most *****, &&&&&&, **** post ever.

Is there an award we can give this poster?

Small wonder this "sport" survives if this is the level of thought out there.

No need for that Graces7.

In the last few days everyones been all very mature about discussion of these issues.

A comment like this doesnt help to be honest so can you tone it down a small bit.Actually theres a few posters that could tone it down a bit--I mean a bit less of the anti hunting soapboxing.

We`re allowing discussion of these topics here lately so that the other side of the argument can be put across by members of the hunting forum but opinion ramming and soapboxing is I feel getting in the way of genuine discussion.

Graces7

Hellrazer wrote: »

No need for that Graces7.

In the last few days everyones been all very mature about discussion of these issues.

A comment like this doesnt help to be honest so can you tone it down a small bit.Actually theres a few posters that could tone it down a bit--I mean a bit less of the anti hunting soapboxing.

We`re allowing discussion of these topics here lately so that the other side of the argument can be put across by members of the hunting forum but opinion ramming and soapboxing is I feel getting in the way of genuine discussion.

Hmmm.. so expressing strong opinions is "soapboxing" now? Interesting idea.

On issues like this there is no middle ground of course. Life and death is like that.
So in many ways there is no discussion to be had.

Thankfully this internet connection does not allow much access, so fear not!

dahat

Looking through the forum charter this thread violates so much of it.

Hellrazer

Graces7 wrote: »

Hmmm.. so expressing strong opinions is "soapboxing" now? Interesting idea.

No its not but your post slating another user over their post is.

On issues like this there is no middle ground of course. Life and death is like that.

No thats your opinion.The other side of the coin is from the people that do course and who have posted on this thread.

So in many ways there is no discussion to be had.

Again more opinion ramming.There is a discussion to be had hance this thread.

Thankfully this internet connection does not allow much access, so fear not!

Just aswell this is the second time today youve come to the mods attention.

doctor evil

TippFan77 wrote: »

www.banbloodsports.com

Not the most objective of sources.

EGAR

doctor evil wrote: »

Not the most objective of sources.

And why is that?

Discodog

doctor evil wrote: »

Not the most objective of sources.

If you mean unbiased sources then there probably aren't any. The IGB/ICC pay for "research" to back up their claims. Why shouldn't the footage shown on the quoted sight be real. It is up to the individual to view it & decide if it is cruel.

TippFan77

doctor evil wrote: »

Not the most objective of sources.

Looking at your posts elsewhere Dr E and to be honest I don't think objectivity is your eh...strongpoint. Though you are of course entitled to your opinions.

Here's hare coursing: and the camera didn't lie in any of these cases:

www.flickr.com/photos/icabs/sets/72157624180875760/

dahat

Another interpetation of the same video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0t65K6OhwPI

Discodog

Another interpretation is that the wire argument is a load of guff & no charges were sought against the two Swedish students who filmed this. This video has been discussed here at great length. Had the students ended up in Court there were plenty of expert witnesses like Vets & Wildlife experts who would of testified that the film is genuine & that the Hare's behaviour is totally consistent with the injuries that it could of received. Even the offer of a big reward by the ICC could not prove otherwise.

dahat

Discodog wrote: »

Another interpretation is that the wire argument is a load of guff & no charges were sought against the two Swedish students who filmed this. This video has been discussed here at great length. Had the students ended up in Court there were plenty of expert witnesses like Vets & Wildlife experts who would of testified that the film is genuine & that the Hare's behaviour is totally consistent with the injuries that it could of received. Even the offer of a big reward by the ICC could not prove otherwise.

Quite possible as is mine.......Im sure an ICC steward was present at the meeting and wondered if he was near the escape/holding area...
While i know a bit about this i am not fully aware of the in's and outs of the investigation..

Discodog

Was there a real investigation ?. I am not aware that the Guards travelled to Sweden or asked the student to come back. The fuss on the ICC website & the reward seemed pointless as the guys who made the film have not hidden their names.

The stewarding is the key issue. The ICC were claiming that someone brought a dead Hare into the event - under their coat ?. That they managed to get the dead Hare into a secure guarded enclosure with none of the thousands of spectator & stewards noticing. They then had to run the line to the outside, do the filming & then get the Hare back out, all without being seen. It is a rule that the Hares are guarded at all times yet no one saw anything.