Voting is a stepping stone to corruption

simplistic2 · 11-02-2011 9:05pm #1

Faces, big smiling faces - they're everywhere, watching you as you move about on the street,promising you change,hope and a brighter future. Imagine, these people have so much power to do so much for you, all you need is faith, a mere belief in their promises.

A man on the street stops you and says"I can make your life better. All I need is your bank details,can I have them? I promise you its a great decision." . If you do anything except punch him the neck and run to safety you are insane. So why don't people afford the same respect to politicians? They not only gain access to your bank account through taxation, but can also take out loans in your name and regulate your personal life as an added extra!

To seek control over your fellow man is the definition of corruption, since you either believe you know what is best for him and wish to control him or you are doing it to expand your own power at his expense. The only way people can gain these positions of power is through unquestioning faith, corruption is the profit of faith,voting is a act of faith. If you vote you are voting for corruption no matter what candidate you are voting for, so give it up for your own self respect.

sceptre · 11-02-2011 9:15pm

Moved to Political Theory. I suggest putting some more meat on those bones if you're looking for a discussion.

clln · 11-02-2011 9:42pm

Hi Simplistic2,i have a lot of empathy with many of your points.
politics is full of 'Alpha' types and it is very healthy to question why some people want power over others in every walk of life.
but i suppose without leaders there would be chaos,be it moderating websites or running a Country.

i think your post is worthy of reply in an open minded way and i hope it makes people think,rather than just always thinking 'inside the box',we need radical thinking badly as our system has failed us so badly.
the least worst system is no longer acceptable IMO
we need hope from our leaders now more than anything,we need a slow leak revolution,we need to live without fear of the future.

simplistic2 · 11-02-2011 10:38pm

clln wrote: »

Hi Simplistic2,i have a lot of empathy with many of your points.
politics is full of 'Alpha' types and it is very healthy to question why some people want power over others in every walk of life.
but i suppose without leaders there would be chaos,be it moderating websites or running a Country.

i think your post is worthy of reply in an open minded way and i hope it makes people think,rather than just always thinking 'inside the box',we need radical thinking badly as our system has failed us so badly.
the least worst system is no longer acceptable IMO
we need hope from our leaders now more than anything,we need a slow leak revolution,we need to live without fear of the future.

I agree that we need leaders in all area of life, it think it is important to examine how they get there. I have no problem being led to the surgery room by my doctor or told how to exercise by a trainer. One reason is because they have relevant knowledge that is valuable to you in that area and two because you have a contract with them. Nobody can have the knowledge to run the lives of millions of people let alone one person. If any other professional deviates from their contract they are liable for damages. Politicians have no real contract and can, as we have seen evade the supposed repercussions from any deviation from their duty.

I don't have faith in my doctor I have a contract with him. If you are going to let people dictate you on how to live your life, you would rationally want a better contract then "I have faith".

recedite · 24-03-2011 10:45pm

Voting is an act of dis-empowerment. You are nominating someone else to make decisions for you.

On the other hand, by not voting, you are letting all those half wits out there nominate their choice of politician to rule over you.

Its a dilemma.

hungrystudent · 08-04-2011 10:24pm

recedite wrote: »

Voting is an act of dis-empowerment. You are nominating someone else to make decisions for you.

On the other hand, by not voting, you are letting all those half wits out there nominate their choice of politician to rule over you.

Its a dilemma.

Voting is disempowerment? Doesn't having a vote mean that you are entitled to representation?

clln · 08-04-2011 10:45pm

hungrystudent wrote: »

Voting is disempowerment? Doesn't having a vote mean that you are entitled to representation?

Yes entitled to representation,but no guarantee that a party's promises will be fulfilled once they are elected,people vote for them on the basis of what they have promised for the next 4/5 years.

Your vote empowers them to make all the choices after that,they very seldom deliver what you voted for.

true Democracy would mean major policy change's would have to be put to the people every time,a referendum every week almost!:)

closest thing to it is the mid-term elections were Americans get to give their verdict on the incurmbent two years into his first term.
as Karl Marx said Democracy amounts to a minute in a polling booth every 4/5 years,but at least we get to dump a Govt unlike dictatorships!

it is the "least worst system"

hungrystudent · 08-04-2011 10:59pm

clln wrote: »

Yes entitled to representation,but no guarantee that a party's promises will be fulfilled once they are elected,people vote for them on the basis of what they have promised for the next 4/5 years.

Your vote empowers them to make all the choices after that,they very seldom deliver what you voted for.

true Democracy would mean major policy change's would have to be put to the people every time,a referendum every week almost!:)

closest thing to it is the mid-term elections were Americans get to give their verdict on the incurmbent two years into his first term.
as Karl Marx said Democracy amounts to a minute in a polling booth every 4/5 years,but at least we get to dump a Govt unlike dictatorships!

it is the "least worst system"

Democracy means a lot more than voting.As for referendum every week, google 'proposition 13'.

clln · 08-04-2011 11:06pm

hungrystudent wrote: »

Democracy means a lot more than voting.

I thought that was the gist of my post!:)

As for referendum every week, google 'proposition 13'.

No i will not as i am Irish and live in Ireland proposistion 13 would not affect me!

So lazy-ass

, you tell us what it propose's!:)

hungrystudent · 08-04-2011 11:14pm

clln wrote: »

I thought that was the gist of my post!:)

No i will not as i am Irish and live in Ireland proposistion 13 would not affect me!

So lazy-ass , you tell us what it propose's!:)

If I did that you would only get my opinion about it.Basically they voted to hamstring their government, and destroyed their economy.

clln · 08-04-2011 11:23pm

hungrystudent wrote: »

If I did that you would only get my opinion about it.

Your opinion is as valid as any one else's,
it is about 'Now ye're talking' not 'now your googling':)

Basically they voted to hamstring their government, and destroyed their economy

it seems like the dogs in the street can see that America is self destructing, that is all but the American 'dogs in the street'

i for one hope it does not,with its many flaws as well as good points the US is still the best friend Ireland has IMO!

hungrystudent · 08-04-2011 11:38pm

clln wrote: »

Your opinion is as valid as any one else's,
it is about 'Now ye're talking' not 'now your googling':)

it seems like the dogs in the street can see that America is self destructing, that is all but the American 'dogs in the street'

i for one hope it does not,with its many flaws as well as good points the US is still the best friend Ireland has IMO!

With friends like that who needs enemies.The USA is a vile society and the sooner it self destructs the better.In my opinion.

clln · 08-04-2011 11:47pm

hungrystudent wrote: »

With friends like that who needs enemies.The USA is a vile society and the sooner it self destructs the better.In my opinion.

The USA is a very complex place,every extreme from left to right is represented.
its Federal nature makes its states more like Countries.

there seems to be a need for a 'World Police',what Nation would you prefer have that job?

yes it is called the biggest warmonger on the Planet,but the facts are after its war of Independance and its Civil war it stayed away from war until it was attacked by Japan.

hungrystudent · 09-04-2011 12:00am

clln wrote: »

The USA is a very complex place,every extreme from left to right is represented.
its Federal nature makes its states more like Countries.

there seems to be a need for a 'World Police',what Nation would you prefer have that job?

yes it is called the biggest warmonger on the Planet,but the facts are after its war of Independance and its Civil war it stayed away from war until it was attacked by Japan.

I think you should do a bit of research
Don't know how accurate this wiki page is, but it's close enough.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_United_States_military_operations
I was talking about the way they treat eachother rather than their military adventures.

clln · 09-04-2011 12:13am

hungrystudent wrote: »

I think you should do a bit of research
Don't know how accurate this wiki page is, but it's close enough.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_United_States_military_operations

If you cannot make your own arguments dont direct me to Google or Wiki please.

if political theory was black or white sure we could all just post a link!

ask the people of Kosovo how they feel about Europe that left them to be ethnicly cleansed who they trust.
ask the people who US troops helped out after natural disasters who they are grateful to.

i am aware of the dark side of US policy but to Demonise the US is to ignore the many good people who's actions were prompted by blind Patriotism or compassion.

important to seperate the 'vile' from the decent.

hungrystudent · 09-04-2011 12:21am

clln wrote: »

If you cannot make your own arguments dont direct me to Google or Wiki please.

if political theory was black or white sure we could all just post a link!

ask the people of Kosovo how they feel about Europe that left them to be ethnicly cleansed who they trust.
ask the people who US troops helped out after natural disasters who they are grateful to.

i am aware of the dark side of US policy but to Demonise the US is to ignore the many good people who's actions were prompted by blind Patriotism or compassion.

important to seperate the 'vile' from the decent.

Whatever.You post some rubbish, and I merely posted a link to show you why your post was rubbish.
Have you ever been in the States?
I am not demonising the US, they did that themselves.

clln · 09-04-2011 12:46am

hungrystudent wrote: »

Whatever.You post some rubbish, and I merely posted a link to show you why your post was rubbish.

If you are talking about your wiki link then it is full of rubbish,minor self defence issues since 1776 to pearl harbour.

I am not demonising the US, they did that themselves.

Calling the US the most vile place on Earth was not demonising it?

I am still waiting for an answer from you as to what nation has the power and technology to respond quickly to be a 'world police'.

Without the US who do you think we would all have to answer to, the Soviet Union or the third Reich?

there is no doubt it would be one of them,no matter how cool you may think it is to go USA bashing!

some people just don't know who their friends are/were.

hungrystudent · 09-04-2011 12:59am

clln wrote: »

If you are talking about your wiki link then it is full of rubbish,minor self defence issues since 1776 to pearl harbour.

Calling the US the most vile place on Earth was not demonising it?

I am still waiting for an answer from you as to what nation has the power and technology to respond quickly to be a 'world police'.

Without the US who do you think we would all have to answer to, the Soviet Union or the third Reich?

there is no doubt it would be one of them,no matter how cool you may think it is to go USA bashing!

some people just don't know who their friends are/were.

clln wrote: »

Yes I was referring to the wiki link.Interpret it any way you like.The US is a vile society, but not the most vile place on Earth, didn't say it was.
I also never mentioned world police, that's your fantasy.
You really should look a bit closer at 'the land of the free', you will see that freedom is expensive there and not for everybody.Horrible place.I don't think you have ever been there.

clln · 09-04-2011 1:12am

hungrystudent wrote: »

clln wrote: »

Yes I was referring to the wiki link.Interpret it any way you like.The US is a vile society,

No 'I love America T-Shirt for you so.

I also never mentioned world police, that's your fantasy.

it is hardly a fantasy,it is a fact,like it or dislike it.

You really should look a bit closer at 'the land of the free', you will see that freedom is expensive there and not for everybody.

I abhor the cruelty of many aspects of American Society,in particular the opposistion to health care reforms,and the 'right to bear arms'

Horrible place.I don't think you have ever been there.

You make an awful lot of assumptions.don't you?

exactly where is your ''paradise' land, i am still waiting for a reply to that.

hungrystudent · 09-04-2011 1:19am

clln wrote: »

hungrystudent wrote: »

No 'I love America T-Shirt for you so.

it is hardly a fantasy,it is a fact,like it or dislike it.

I abhor the cruelty of many aspects of American Society,in particular the opposistion to health care reforms,and the 'right to bear arms'

You make an awful lot of assumptions.don't you?

exactly where is your ''paradise' land, i am still waiting for a reply to that.

I don't believe in Utopias.

clln · 09-04-2011 1:29am

hungrystudent wrote: »

clln wrote: »

I don't believe in Utopias.

well since you will not answer the core question,it seems to me you do not believe in anything that you will admit to.

*meant to include the death penalty to the list of things i abhor*

hungrystudent · 09-04-2011 1:36am

clln wrote: »

hungrystudent wrote: »

well since you will not answer the core question,it seems to me you do not believe in anything that you will admit to.

*meant to include the death penalty to the list of things i abhor*

Your right, there is very little I believe.I tend to have a lot of faith in what I see though.Suppose that's why I would be happy to see the US sunk, or at least relegated to the second division.

clln · 09-04-2011 1:53am

hungrystudent wrote: »

clln wrote: »

.I tend to have a lot of faith in what I see though.

as do i,but i also believe in the lessons of history............. those who do not learn them are doomed to repeat them...... etc

Suppose that's why I would be happy to see the US sunk, or at least relegated to the second division.

what 'new World order' would you like to see?
the lesson of history is when a 'Superpower' fails the void is rapidly filled.

What Country would you feel comfortable about having that role?
Europe has already proven to be no friend of anybody even its own through not defending the slaughter of innocents when Yugoslavia was breaking up, Hitler was rising to power,and more recently letting its 'partners' sink because of the economic crisis

hungrystudent · 09-04-2011 2:01am

clln wrote: »

hungrystudent wrote: »

as do i,but i also believe in the lessons of history............. those who do not learn them are doomed to repeat them...... etc

what 'new World order' would you like to see?
the lesson of history is when a 'Superpower' fails the void is rapidly filled.

What Country would you feel comfortable about having that role?
Europe has already proven to be no friend of anybody even its own through not defending the slaughter of innocents when Yugoslavia was breaking up, Hitler was rising to power,and more recently letting its 'partners' sink because of the economic crisis

History shows us that there is no such thing as a superpower.Apart from Clark Kent of course.
I would imagine that society will continue on the same evolutionary path it has always followed.As populations grow, so do polities.Family..tribes..city states..nation states..regionalism..what next? one world government? Suppose it's the next logical step, but not in our lifetime.At the moment I think supranational institutions are our best bet.But I'm open to another suggestion.

clln · 09-04-2011 2:07am

hungrystudent wrote: »

clln wrote: »

History shows us that there is no such thing as a superpower.Apart from Clark Kent of course.

:D

one world government?

I thought you did not believe in Utopia's?

.But I'm open to another suggestion.

get Yourself a Woman??? :pac:

hungrystudent · 09-04-2011 2:15am

clln wrote: »

hungrystudent wrote: »

:D

I thought you did not believe in Utopia's?

get Yourself a Woman??? :pac:

I don't believe one world govt. will be a utopia.."Out of the crooked timber of humanity no straight thing was ever made."
I was just suggesting it was the end result of the process so far.

clln · 09-04-2011 2:22am

hungrystudent wrote: »

clln wrote: »

I don't believe one world govt. will be a utopia.."Out of the crooked timber of humanity nothing straight was ever made."
I was just suggesting it was the end result of the process so far.

but you know deep down it will never happen, right?

People living under the same roof cannot find happiness.

No hope that People living under the 'same Sun' will ever do so.

We will self destruct rather than do that. IMO.

hungrystudent · 09-04-2011 2:33am

clln wrote: »

hungrystudent wrote: »

but you know deep down it will never happen, right?

People living under the same roof cannot find happiness.

No hope that People living under the 'same Sun' will ever do so.

We will self destruct rather than do that. IMO.

I think you underestimate the will to survive.People have always built bigger and bigger roofs to live under (see previous post).The globalisation of risk, combined with our current obsession with free market economics, will make supranational organisations a necessity.

clln · 09-04-2011 2:44am

hungrystudent wrote: »

clln wrote: »

I think you underestimate the will to survive.

Darwins ideas are allowed on boards?, would'nt happen in America!!!

People have always built bigger and bigger roofs to live under (see previous post).The globalisation of risk, combined with our current obsession with free market economics, will make supranational organisations a necessity.

So at last you reveal you are not a total Cynic!:)

i hope you are right that necessity will be the 'mother of invention'

personally i am pessimistic about it long term.

but to reinforce your belief CNN are just reporting that a deal has been done on the US Budget just 75 minutes before the shutdown.
hands have been shook on the deal it seems.

hungrystudent · 09-04-2011 2:47am

clln wrote: »

hungrystudent wrote: »

Darwins ideas are allowed on boards?, would'nt happen in America!!!

So at last you reveal you are not a total Cynic!:)

i hope you are right that necessity will be the 'mother of invention'

personally i am pessimistic about it long term.

but to reinforce your belief CNN are just reporting that a deal has been done on the US Budget just 75 minutes before the shutdown.
hands have been shook on the deal it seems.

I'm delighted for them.Suppose it means the poor will be ground into the dirt as usual.
Anyway it was good talking to you clln but I think it's time to crash..good night and good luck.

clln · 09-04-2011 2:52am

hungrystudent wrote: »

clln wrote: »

I'm delighted for them.Suppose it means the poor will be ground into the dirt as usual.
Anyway it was good talking to you clln but I think it's time to crash..good night and good luck.

Ditto!

Lockstep · 09-04-2011 10:56am

Pointless thread is pointless.

It started out as a vague statement and turned into a discussion on US foreign policy. Clln and HS: feel free to start a new thread if you want to discuss this.

Voting is a stepping stone to corruption

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