Do we do Republicanism badly in Ireland?

dilbert2

I have always been fond of reading up on the theories of men like Aristotle, Cicero, Thomas Paine, Thomas Jefferson, John Adams, Benjamin Franklin, John Locke, Jean Jacques Rosseau, Charles Montesquieu and a few others regarding their theories of republicanism, and their influential philosophies that later led to the creation of the new nation states, and in particular – Republics.

Then I look at the comparison between our supposed “republicanism” and the classical republicanism which influenced the creation of earlier republics (although different in many regards) of America and France, and I can honestly say that I don’t know where we get off calling ourselves a republic given some of our post 1922 history, whether it be

• Handing over so much power to a medieval institution like the catholic church
• Discrimination against Protestants and other religious minorities during the early years
• A one-size-fits-all culture imposed whether it be the Irish language, the catholic religion and god knows what else.
• A tolerance for nepotism and gombeen politics at the expense of national development and well being.

I could of course go on, but it just seems to me that Irish society post-1922 often smacks of authoritarianism and on the other hand corruption as opposed to espousing Republicanism in the true sense of the word such as found in the writings of the Ancient Greeks, English and American (the founding fathers in particular) philosophers and of course on the other hand the French model, and their republican espousers.

What exactly is that makes us a Republic because all I can see when I read over our past (post-independence) is (a) grovelling to the church, (b) a high tolerance for corruption, (c) an electoral system based on some tick notions of “who shot who in the civil war”, (d) a one-size-fits-all culture and (e) in general low esteem in practicing individual freedom such as what one would expect to find in a true republic.

Am I right in suggesting that we are a Republic because that’s what we decided to call ourselves, or am I missing something here?

liah

Ireland is to the definition of 'Republic' as the States are to the definition of 'United.'

Grasshoppa

To be Franklin, republicanism in Ireland has been a bit of a Paine alright, but then again we've had a lot on our Plato.

Now that's Repunlicanism.

dilbert2

Grasshoppa wrote: »

To be Franklin, republicanism in Ireland has been a bit of a Paine alright, but then again we've had a lot on our Plato.

Now that's Repunlicanism.

Hillarious.

orourkeda

Hows your publican

Agricola

Not just Republicanism. We do lots of things badly in Ireland

Ghost Estate

dilbert2 wrote: »

• the catholic church
• the Irish language, the catholic religion
• national development

rabble rabble rabble every place is better and more developed than our own. although meanings of 'more developed' may vary.

just back from a big city and think it outshines 'backward' old ireland in every way? if so then feck off back there, and don't bother blaming the church for everything either just because you're an anti-religious zealot who can't resist the temptation.

goose2005

Grasshoppa wrote: »

To be Franklin, republicanism in Ireland has been a bit of a Paine alright, but then again we've had a lot on our Plato.

Now that's Repunlicanism.

Don't be such a burke.

Red Hand

liah wrote: »

Ireland is to the definition of 'Republic' as the States are to the definition of 'United.'

Very Confuciusing. How so?

PK2008

goose2005 wrote: »

Don't be such a burke.

I dont like your Tone

Aodan83

goose2005 wrote: »

Don't be such a burke.

Ignore him, he's probably Locked.

Celly Smunt

Republicanism in Ireland is a total farce,a socialist republican Ireland is the final nail in the coffin

Mike 1972

dilbert2 wrote: »

Am I right in suggesting that we are a Republic because that’s what we decided to call ourselves, or am I missing something here?

Ireland is a Republic mainly because Britain is a monarchy. The term "Republican" is so widely misused in Ireland that nobody is quite sure what it means anymore.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

dilbert2 wrote: »

I have always been fond of reading up on the theories of men like Aristotle, Cicero, Thomas Paine, Thomas Jefferson, John Adams, Benjamin Franklin, John Locke, Jean Jacques Rosseau, Charles Montesquieu and a few others regarding their theories of republicanism, and their influential philosophies that later led to the creation of the new nation states, and in particular – Republics.

Sounds a bit like bragging to me. Especially considering you missed Plato.

Then I look at the comparison between our supposed “republicanism” and the classical republicanism which influenced the creation of earlier republics (although different in many regards) of America and France, and I can honestly say that I don’t know where we get off calling ourselves a republic given some of our post 1922 history, whether it be

• Handing over so much power to a medieval institution like the catholic church
• Discrimination against Protestants and other religious minorities during the early years
• A one-size-fits-all culture imposed whether it be the Irish language, the catholic religion and god knows what else.
• A tolerance for nepotism and gombeen politics at the expense of national development and well being.

I could of course go on, but it just seems to me that Irish society post-1922 often smacks of authoritarianism and on the other hand corruption as opposed to espousing Republicanism in the true sense of the word such as found in the writings of the Ancient Greeks, English and American (the founding fathers in particular) philosophers and of course on the other hand the French model, and their republican espousers.

What exactly is that makes us a Republic because all I can see when I read over our past (post-independence) is (a) grovelling to the church, (b) a high tolerance for corruption, (c) an electoral system based on some tick notions of “who shot who in the civil war”, (d) a one-size-fits-all culture and (e) in general low esteem in practicing individual freedom such as what one would expect to find in a true republic.

Am I right in suggesting that we are a Republic because that’s what we decided to call ourselves, or am I missing something here?

A republic is not nessecarily a good or a bad thing, it just means that the people make the choice. The problem is that it relies on mature intelligent people making good well thought out decisions to work. Because the people make poor decisions does not mean the definition changes.

In short, Ireland is a republic because the majority of Irish people choose all of things you mentioned in your list.

Arnold Layne

In Ireland;

a republican is a person who owned a bar, invested in property in the boom, went bankrupt, got bailed out by the taxpayer (i.e. via NAMA), allowed to keep running the bar and will vote Fianna Fail in the coming General Election.

Rabble Rabble

To be fair we didnt kill as many people as those other republics.

galwayrush

Arnold Layne wrote: »

In Ireland;

a republican is a person who owned a bar, invested in property in the boom, went bankrupt, got bailed out by the taxpayer (i.e. via NAMA), allowed to keep running the bar and will vote Fianna Fail in the coming General Election.

You forgot the generous salaries NAMA gives to those developer friends of FF who would otherwise be bankrupted .

Rabble Rabble

A Republic is a form of democracy where the head of State is directly elected. There is little or nothing about secularism, gombeenism ( whatever that means), in it.

Ireland never discriminated against Protestants. On the other hand, Northern Ireland ( and the UK in general does against Catholics.

Wolfe Tone

Sounds a bit like bragging to me. Especially considering you missed Plato.

I laughed at this, I take it you arent familiar with Platos work.

spider guardian

dilbert2 wrote: »

Am I right in suggesting that we are a Republic because that’s what we decided to call ourselves, or am I missing something here?

What is a republic? Does calling yourself a republic make it so? China calls itself a republic. North Korea calls itself a republic. The Congo calls itself a republic. Plenty others did or do so. Maybe it would take another invasion of the brits for us to all fly the tricolour everywhere and play all the rebel songs all over the place. It's human nature to reach for your identity when it becomes threatened.

We have known peace here for a long time, if we became involved in a war we would very quickly find our sense of identity again. We shouldn't get apathetic about the sacrifices made by those who fought in the uprisings or even the wild geese. they were fighting for ireland before we were even a country

Ghost Estate

spider guardian wrote: »

North Korea calls itself a republic

Not only that but they call themselves a Democratic People's Republic

It seems like the more they overdo the title the worse the country actually is

spider guardian

Ghost Estate wrote: »

Not only that but they call themselves a Democratic People's Republic

It seems like the more they overdo the title the worse the country actually is

the bigger the lie, the more people that will believe it

partyatmygaff

dilbert2 wrote: »

• Handing over so much power to a medieval institution like the catholic church

Medieval? Are you sure you know your history? The Catholic church's history can be traced back to the Roman Empire.

Discrimination against Protestants and other religious minorities during the early years

Not really. If even at all it was insignificant compared to British discrimination against Catholics.

A one-size-fits-all culture imposed whether it be the Irish language, the catholic religion and god knows what else.

People actually spoke Irish back then. Even so, it wasn't "imposed" on anyone, i'm fairly sure you were allowed to speak English back in the early days of the Irish state. No one imposed the Catholic religion on anyone either, it was just the religion of the vast majority of the people at the time and as such it became part of Irish culture.

A tolerance for nepotism and gombeen politics at the expense of national development and well being.

Surprise surprise. Still the same old story over here in Ireland 2011.

Am I right in suggesting that we are a Republic because that’s what we decided to call ourselves, or am I missing something here?

A republic is simply a state where supreme power of the state lies with the citizens of the country who elect other citizens to represent them. It doesn't mean anything else. Even the word "republic" just means "Return to the Public". As in decisions of the state ultimately are within the control of citizens of the state.

KeithAFC

Rabble Rabble wrote: »

A Republic is a form of democracy where the head of State is directly elected. There is little or nothing about secularism, gombeenism ( whatever that means), in it.

Ireland never discriminated against Protestants. On the other hand, Northern Ireland ( and the UK in general does against Catholics.

Would not be too sure of that. People who are trusted by the Catholic church abuses young Catholics in a physical sense. Rome has had far too much power in the republic for too long. Seems people are now starting to wake up to it.

spider guardian

KeithAFC wrote: »

People who are trusted by the Catholic church abuses young Catholics in a physical sense

What? Could you rephrase that?

KeithAFC wrote: »

Rome has had far too much power in the republic for too long. Seems people are now starting to wake up to it.

Only now? It's a long time since the bishops were dictating government policy here.

dilbert2

Ghost Estate wrote: »

just back from a big city and think it outshines 'backward' old ireland in every way? if so then feck off back there,

Big city? Eh, what big city?

and don't bother blaming the church for everything either just because you're an anti-religious zealot who can't resist the temptation.

I know, how dare anybody criticise the "holy" roman church or point out their (a) domination of a so-called Republic, or (b) tolerate and even protect paedophiles working for them etc. It would be so much easier if we all just shut our mouths (accept for alter boys of course – oops ) about the history of catholicism in Ireland wouldn't it - including the laundaries/ abuse in boy's schools etc. Shouldn't you be saying some hail mary's for lost souls such as myself as opposed to wasting your time on mere earthly activities like posting on websites?

Arnold Layne

galwayrush wrote: »

You forgot the generous salaries NAMA gives to those developer friends of FF who would otherwise be bankrupted .

That wouldn't be a publican's salary, but a Republican's

Arnold Layne

Rabble Rabble wrote: »

To be fair we didnt kill as many people as those other republics.

Ah sure, we're alright so. :rolleyes:

dilbert2

spider guardian wrote: »

Only now? It's a long time since the bishops were dictating government policy here.

I take it you haven't heard of the blasphemy law then, and before you try to claim that's it's nothing to do with the bishops, it still has a great deal to do with our historic (and even present) grovelling to the Catholic Church, so you could say the they still indirectly influence our nation’s governance. Technically, in a Republic there is a strong constitutional bulwark against intrusion from the likes of the Catholic Church from having dominion over a country's politics and people (e.g. US Constitution, French constitution etc). This is where Ireland can come across as a Medieval society with the church in charge, as opposed to a Modern Republican democracy such as one finds in North America and other parts of Europe.

However, in our so-called Republican democracy, we still seem to be at the mercy of the whims of the Catholic Church. This obvious truth was reinforced by the introduction of the blasphemy law a few years ago, and also considering that the church continues to have a heavy hand in our politics, schools, hospitals etc.

HavingCrack

Rabble Rabble wrote: »

A Republic is a form of democracy where the head of State is directly elected. There is little or nothing about secularism, gombeenism ( whatever that means), in it.

Ireland never discriminated against Protestants. On the other hand, Northern Ireland ( and the UK in general does against Catholics.

This certainly isn't true in the present day. Going back to the 1960's, yes the Northern Ireland government was very sectarian but the Westminister parliament hasn't been for much longer than that to be fair.

dilbert2 wrote: »

I take it you haven't heard of the blasphemy law then, and before you try to claim that's it's nothing to do with the bishops, it still has a great deal to do with our historic (and even present) grovelling to the Catholic Church, so you could say the they still indirectly influence our nation’s governance. Technically, in a Republic there is a strong constitutional bulwark against intrusion from the likes of the Catholic Church from having dominion over a country's politics and people (e.g. US Constitution, French constitution etc). This is where Ireland can come across as a Medieval society with the church in charge, as opposed to a Modern Republican democracy such as one finds in North America and other parts of Europe.

Comparing the foundation of the Irish republic to that of the US and France is a bit like comparing apples and oranges. The latter two states had their modern origins in the US and French revolutions of the late 18th and early 19th centuries when the ideas of the Enlightenment were fresh and contemporary. In the first case the majority of US politicans were deist at the time and would have opposed religious references in the constitution while in the latter anti clericalism even resulted in Revolutionary France being declared the first atheist state in history.

By the time Ireland had achieved indepedence Christianity and Catholicism in particular had begun to become far more politically active and outspoken than during the 18th century and the ideas of early republicanism had disappeared. It's not as suprising the Catholic Church ended up exercising so much influence. I suspect strongly if the United Irishman Rebellion of 1798 had suceeded our republic would be far closer to the French and US models than what came later but probably at a far greater loss of life. The United Irishmen even set up a Directory of Public Safety modelled on the French..it's quite possible a revolutionary terror to equal that of France may have occured.

It's certainly interesting to consider.

spider guardian

dilbert2 wrote: »

I take it you haven't heard of the blasphemy law then, and before you try to claim that's it's nothing to do with the bishops, it still has a great deal to do with our historic (and even present) grovelling to the Catholic Church, so you could say the they still indirectly influence our nation’s governance. Technically, in a Republic there is a strong constitutional bulwark against intrusion from the likes of the Catholic Church from having dominion over a country's politics and people (e.g. US Constitution, French constitution etc). This is where Ireland can come across as a Medieval society with the church in charge, as opposed to a Modern Republican democracy such as one finds in North America and other parts of Europe.

However, in our so-called Republican democracy, we still seem to be at the mercy of the whims of the Catholic Church. This obvious truth was reinforced by the introduction of the blasphemy law a few years ago, and also considering that the church continues to have a heavy hand in our politics, schools, hospitals etc.

I have no idea why Ahern brought in such an anachronistic piece of legislation but the fact is that it hasn't even been tested in court. It's not gonna stop people speaking out against religion if they so wish. There would be a legal quagmire if it was enforced, it would be argued that it infringed upon free speech.

Yes our schools are still mainly owned by the church but they are mainly held in trust for the state. the church's position is weak and they have no standing any more to impose any draconian teachings on the kids.

People here are free to live their lives without any interference from religion, if you don't believe me then try living in an islamic country where you must observe the ramadan, are forbidden from drinking alcohol and if born a woman then tough luck. big deal if the church was all powerful years ago. it's not like pakistan where you can be executed for blasphemy. things have changed considerably in the last 20 years in this country, all for the better

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

I laughed at this, I take it you arent familiar with Platos work.

A little. But my point was that surely someone wanting to research philosophical would on republics would first read Plato's Republic.

Sergeant

Michael McDowell was the last example of a true Irish Republican that I've seen in the media.

Mike 1972

spider guardian wrote: »

an islamic country where you must observe the ramadan, are forbidden from drinking alcohol and if born a woman then tough luck

Par example ?

spider guardian

Mike 1972 wrote: »

Par example ?

Saudi Arabia

partyatmygaff

Mike 1972 wrote: »

Par example ?

Iran.

Mike 1972

spider guardian wrote: »

Saudi Arabia

Fair enough (unless one is a foreigner living on a military base or oil company residential compound where most of the restrictions dont apply/arent enforced) the but to what extent is one "forced to observe Ramadam" in Saudai ?

BTW Saudi (unlike Iran) doesnt claim to be a Republic before we go too O/T on this......

Cybertron85

As with everything in Ireland we're **** at it.

Even alcoholism is done better by Russians, even GAA is done better by Aussies when they turn their hand to it etc etc.

Capt'n Midnight

Ghost Estate wrote: »

Not only that but they call themselves a Democratic People's Republic

It seems like the more they overdo the title the worse the country actually is

DDR DRC DK

Mike 1972

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

DDR

What was undemocratic about the GDR ?

Sure didnt voters have six communist parties to choose from :pac:

spider guardian

Mike 1972 wrote: »

Fair enough (unless one is a foreigner living on a military base or oil company residential compound where most of the restrictions dont apply/arent enforced) the but to what extent is one "forced to observe Ramadam" in Saudai ?

Having never been there myself I can go only go by Wikipedia :

During Ramadan, eating, drinking, or smoking in public during daylight hours is not allowed.

Mike 1972 wrote: »

BTW Saudi (unlike Iran) doesnt claim to be a Republic before we go too O/T on this......

True, but it seemed some people were saying that Ireland was somewhat repressed, was contrasting freedoms with other countries

Wolfe Tone

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

A little. But my point was that surely someone wanting to research philosophical would on republics would first read Plato's Republic.

Thats a mistranslation, its nothing to do with a republic at all. Basically a caste system with slavery and with "philosopher kings"

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

Thats a mistranslation, its nothing to do with a republic at all. Basically a caste system with slavery and with "philosopher kings"

Still dealt with the ideal state though and various different approaches to it (unless I'm mixing it up with one of his other works, which is possible). A democracy can be a positive or a negative thing depending on the intentions of the rulers, and it's up for the people to decide who is and who is not worthy of the appointment.

The people, therefore, form the republic.

Wolfe Tone

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

Still dealt with the ideal state though and various different approaches to it (unless I'm mixing it up with one of his other works, which is possible). A democracy can be a positive or a negative thing depending on the intentions of the rulers, and it's up for the people to decide who is and who is not worthy of the appointment.

The people, therefore, form the republic.

No, they basically train people from birth and stick them in as rulers when they are in their sixties.