A question for all you entrepreneurs...

Topper Harley01

Ok, this is strictly a hypothetical question.

Say I had a business (grocery store for example), and I am paying Irish staff the going wage-let's say 9 euros an hour.

Would it be possible to form a company in China for example, register the business as a Chinese asset abroad, and then send Chinese workers over to Ireland to work for a much cheaper wage?

I don't have any experience in international law or business, but I am just curious as to whether this is plausible?

lintdrummer

I doubt that's possible. You would have to hire your staff in china from your company that's based in China. I'm no legal expert but I'd imagine you'd run into a lot of problems.

Topper Harley01

emmettogara wrote: »

I doubt that's possible. Besides, there are plenty of Irish people crying out for work at the moment. Save money elsewhere, a business that goes out of it's way not to support our economy wouldn't exactly endear itself to the Irish public.

Ok I can understand that point of view, but captains of industry tend not to care what the public think when it comes to profits.

If Michael O Leary wanted to carry out my idea, could he?

The reason I am asking, btw, is that I was watching the BBC special on the Chinese in Africa. They are undercutting the local competition by supplying cheap, skilled labour that no-one can compete with. I wonder will we start to see the same here...

Wouldnt work you need to adhere to the local labour laws and pay local taxes, PRSI etc doesnt matter who you employ

Tangled

You can't employ anyone from outside the EU unless you can prove there is no-one else available to do the job. So if, say, you had a Chinese restaurant and needed a specialist chef with expertise in a particular regional cuisine and couldn't find someone from the EU to do it then you could bring a chef over from China to fill the role and get a work permit for them. If you were running a grocery store that any Irish / EU person could do the work in then you would have to employ an EU citizen to do the work.

YellowSheep

That sounds like slavery........:mad:

Topper Harley01

Tangled wrote: »

You can't employ anyone from outside the EU unless you can prove there is no-one else available to do the job. So if, say, you had a Chinese restaurant and needed a specialist chef with expertise in a particular regional cuisine and couldn't find someone from the EU to do it then you could bring a chef over from China to fill the role and get a work permit for them. If you were running a grocery store that any Irish / EU person could do the work in then you would have to employ an EU citizen to do the work.

Wouldn't that simply be a matter of bribing the right minister? I don't think morals or economic patriotism are a concern for our elected officials..

Yurple

horrible horrible horrible.. if you want to use slavelabour then move out of ireland ! horrible!!!

Topper Harley01

Yurple wrote: »

horrible horrible horrible.. if you want to use slavelabour then move out of ireland ! horrible!!!

Cheap labour =/= slave labour.

partyatmygaff

Topper Harley01 wrote: »

Cheap labour =/= slave labour.

Chinese people are paid low wages In China in accordance with the rest of their economy.

How exactly do you propose these workers survive on a pittance over here in Ireland? Unless you somehow have a way of ensuring their cost of living does not exceed that of China then your proposal is both immoral and unfeasible.

Topper Harley01

partyatmygaff wrote: »

Chinese people are paid low wages In China in accordance with the rest of their economy.

How exactly do you propose these workers survive on a pittance over here in Ireland? Unless you somehow have a way of ensuring their cost of living does not exceed that of China then your proposal is both immoral and unfeasible.

The standard practice at the moment is that they ship everything over to wherever they are going, including food and portacabin accommodation. They wouldn't really even leave the camp-they are literally like a self contained army. They don't feel the need to go off into town on the booze. This is happening right now in Africa, and they are surviving just fine.

Also, it wasn't uncommon for labourers in England to live in containers on site back in the 80's.

StupidLikeAFox

You sound like the worst boss in the world

partyatmygaff

Topper Harley01 wrote: »

The standard practice at the moment is that they ship everything over to wherever they are going, including food and portacabin accommodation. They wouldn't really even leave the camp-they are literally like a self contained army. They don't feel the need to go off into town on the booze. This is happening right now in Africa, and they are surviving just fine.

Also, it wasn't uncommon for labourers in England to live in containers on site back in the 80's.

They are people not animals. Business is business but business also caries social responsibility.

In any case, a business model as reprehensible as what you describe would deter any customers from setting foot in your shop. Not only that I seriously doubt what you're describing is feasible let alone legal.

You're also missing one major point. Chinese businesses need to have a Chinese bank account. You can only bring money in to a Chinese business account but you cannot withdraw the money out from the country.

CelticRambler

partyatmygaff wrote: »

Chinese people are paid low wages In China in accordance with the rest of their economy.

How exactly do you propose these workers survive on a pittance over here in Ireland? Unless you somehow have a way of ensuring their cost of living does not exceed that of China then your proposal is both immoral and unfeasible.

You take over a former military base and promise the great things for the local economy if the local government agrees that you can set up a "service centre" providing back-up for Chinese made products (which would otherwise have to be sent back to China for assessment and repair). Then you fill the barraks with as many poorly-paid workers as you like, allow token inspections to keep the dignitaries happy and carry on exactly as you would in China. As long as the "front-of-house" looks good, you won't run into any problems.

... taken from a multi-million pound "development" proposal currently being promoted as A Good Thing by my local government here in France (and they know a thing or two about the flexible implementation of EU rules). :mad:

Topper Harley01

They are people not animals. Business is business but business also caries social responsibility.

Agreed. But the law clearly allows for that. We're not talking about whipping people in the sun or shooting them. They are getting food, (basic) pay, accommodation, medical care. Everything else is non-essential luxuries from a management view. And, as the unions clearly demonstrate, no matter what you give the workers, they will always want more, more, more until your business cannot function properly. Hiring cheap foreign labour is very enticing to the major corporations.

In any case, a business model as reprehensible as what you describe would deter any customers from setting foot in your shop. Not only that I seriously doubt what you're describing is feasible let alone legal.

Nice ideology, but the vast majority of everything you wear, interact with, and use in your home has been produced under these circumstances-including that computer you are typing on. Even worse, if truth be told. At least the Chinese adhere to the very basic standards. The ugly truth is that people are happy to turn a blind eye as long as they get cheap goods. As for legal, that is what I am trying to find out.

You're also missing one major point. Chinese businesses need to have a Chinese bank account. You can only bring money in to a Chinese business account but you cannot withdraw the money out from the country

I don't have any experience in international finance, but I don't think this is correct. I am sure there are plenty of loopholes to transfer money from a Chinese account to another business account back in Ireland once the profits have been made. How else do the multi-nationals make profits?

Note: As I have pointed out above folks, this is a hypothetical situation. I'm not interested in moral judgements, ethics, or ludicrous accusations of slavery. I am only interested in what the law does and doesn't allow. You seem to forget that this is capitalism at it's best/worst. The ability to make money using the cheapest labour that the law permits, and reducing costs down to a minimum.*
So don't hate the player, hate the game.

*(No Chinese were harmed in the making of this hypothetical situation.)

partyatmygaff

Topper Harley01 wrote: »

Agreed. But the law clearly allows for that. We're not talking about whipping people in the sun or shooting them. They are getting food, (basic) pay, accommodation, medical care.

They get this in their home country where they are on equal terms with the rest of the population. In Sub-Saharan Africa they would even have slightly better working conditions than the native people. Over in Ireland they would be living under far worse conditions than the native people and that will cause many social issues. Employees are people, you can't just herd them from country to country providing them with only the minimum to survive.

Nice ideology, but the vast majority of everything you wear, interact with, and use in your home has been produced under these circumstances-including that computer you are typing on. Even worse, if truth be told. At least the Chinese adhere to the very basic standards. The ugly truth is that people are happy to turn a blind eye as long as they get cheap goods. As for legal, that is what I am trying to find out.

Yes but in the countries where such goods are produced this is the norm. That's the problem of the country in question and it ought to be addressed, not simply imported over here where such injustices do not exist.

I don't have any experience in international finance, but I don't think this is correct.

I'm fairly sure it is.

I am sure there are plenty of loopholes to transfer money from a Chinese account to another business account back in Ireland once the profits have been made. How else do the multi-nationals make profits?

They contract the work to local firms or in some cases contract the work to a locally based subsidiary which serves only to produce goods for the main firm. An example of this is Apple who contract the manufacture of their products to Foxconn. Or Sony who contract the manufacture of their products to multiple Chinese factories.

antoinolachtnai

You cannot do this. It would be illegal. Your chinese employees would be turned away at the point of entry because they would not have work visas. If they somehow got in, they would be forbidden to work without visas, and you would be employing them at below the minimum wage. You would face fines for this and would have to compensate the employees for these losses when they were being deported. You would also be likely to face serious criminal charges for trafficking.

There is some flexibility to do this sort of arrangement within Europe under the services directive. This is limited however. It is not a cloak which can be used to open a business or operate in a way that is illegal in a country.

I believe Michael O'Leary is claiming that some of the people at the Ryanair hubs in France are employees in Ireland rather than France, for example. This is a rather complex situation and is a lot more complex than just legal costs.

it is indeed ironic and perhaps unjust that what is permitted in the manufacturing industries is not permitted in the service industries. But that's the way it is. The reality, too, is that there is a big difference between employing someone at a low wage in their home place and hauling them off to the other side of the world and employing them at the same rate.

AstonMartin

Do you not watch movies? They will eventually revolt and beat you to death. Hypotetically speaking of course. Anyway they are going to eventually take over the devoloped markets and have it out with the muslims to see whose ideology will win out so the question should be why do the chinese need us overpaid greedy lazy irish? Also you started talking sh1t first.