IWU - electoral resistance and a real alternative

Independant IWU

What is the IWU?

The Independent Workers Union is a long running independent trade union which has branches nationwide. The IWU supports a real left alternative to the disaster that has befallen our country and urges voters to vote against the corrupt system and the three larger political parties that support it.

www.union.ie


State of the Nation

We are concerned that the theft of the Irish people by the leaders of the banks and supported by the government and the EU will lead to a situation where the workers and the ordinary people of Ireland will have to pay the bill. It is a scandal of shocking proportions and must be resisted regardless of media and political propaganda to the contrary.


Budget Alternatives

The government and the main opposition parties are accepting the dictate from Brussels that we must borrow huge amounts of money to bail out the banks. There is no need for this approach, it is a political choice and it is against the wishes and well being of ireland and its people.

The IWU has conducted extensive research into the economic crisis and along with many others from the left we have put forward alternative ways of solving the countries problems without impoverishing the populace who have been hit hard from every angle over the last couple of years.

-A national maximum wage of 100,000, no public worker(including TD's) should be paid over this. Those in the private sector who try and avoid this will be taxed at 75% on anything over 100,000.

-We demand that all natural resources including oil, gas and minerals are taken into public ownership and the profits used to properly fund our public services. If this was implemented and managed properly we would have state of the art public services similar to the scandanavian countries and others. This would also give us powerful state run industries and resulting infastructure projects would create home grown employment of the best possible kind.

-The bank guarantee should only apply to deposits. These deposits should be used to put equity into a NEW state run bank, free from the debts of the current banks which are a noose around our neck. We demand that the government, present and future, stops putting billions of our money into failed banks and that legislation is brought in to criminalize those who are responsable for this outrageous policy. It is treason, plain and simple, as stated by the garda representitve association.


Alternative Government & Movement Against Austerity

It is clear that the current government and the supposed soon to be government will not implement these policies or other similar people based policies that are so badly needed. The IWU along with friends of left unity across the country urge voters not to support any party that plans to continue the austerity agenda.

If you want to see a more just and fair society in Ireland, you will need to organise into pressure groups. You can begin this process by joining the Independent Workers Union or by getting involved and supporting the broad range of alternative movements across the country, political parties or otherwise.

Do not be a doormat, defend your interests and your country.
www.union.ie

zig

Do you mean vote for the Socialist party? Or are you setting up a party?

I think the natural resources thing is a bit overoptimistic and simplified.

Regarding your maximum wage, how do you propose to keep people above the 100k in the country, because while in theory it is good , and no doubt fair, in the sense that our society will be more equal, its simply not realistic, why on earth would you hang around if you can earn 200k in Europe.

On another note,I personally do fear for workers rights in the coming years, and while I have never been a major lefty I do think that our obsession with keeping the companies happy SOLELY on the fact that they are the job suppliers is a dangerous and unhealthy means to go on.

nesf

This is extremely close to being an advertisement. If you don't engage with posters and debate with them OP this thread will be deleted.

Einhard

Independant IWU wrote: »

-A national maximum wage of 100,000, no public worker(including TD's) should be paid over this. Those in the private sector who try and avoid this will be taxed at 75% on anything over 100,000.

And when every doctor in the country decides to leave for greener pastures, will you force them to stay in the country?

-We demand that all natural resources including oil, gas and minerals are taken into public ownership and the profits used to properly fund our public services. If this was implemented and managed properly we would have state of the art public services similar to the scandanavian countries and others. This would also give us powerful state run industries and resulting infastructure projects would create home grown employment of the best possible kind.

And who then will pay the massive exporation costs to locate these hydrocarbons in the Atlantic, the existence of which is far from certain? Does the IWU have any idea how much it costs to bore a single exploratory well, and how slim the chances are of every finding anything. In over 4 decades of searching, only the Kinsale and the Corrib fields have returned significant commercial deposits of oil or gas.

It is treason, plain and simple, as stated by the garda representitve association.

The GRA only found its voice when the interests of its own members were under threat, so forgive me if I take such clarion calls with a pinch of salt.

Blowfish

Independant IWU wrote: »

We are concerned that the theft of the Irish people by the leaders of the banks and supported by the government and the EU will lead to a situation where the workers and the ordinary people of Ireland will have to pay the bill. It is a scandal of shocking proportions and must be resisted regardless of media and political propaganda to the contrary.

-A national maximum wage of 100,000, no public worker(including TD's) should be paid over this. Those in the private sector who try and avoid this will be taxed at 75% on anything over 100,000.

How is one of these theft and the other not?

rodento

Thought most trade Union heads were paid well over 100,000

:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

aidan24326

rodento wrote: »

Thought most trade Union heads were paid well over 100,000

:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

And still are.

I don't recall the Union Dons in Liberty Hall or Parnell Square slashing their own pay.

aidan24326

And OP

as others have said, your approach to our (supposed) oil and gas reserves is simplistic and not thought out properly.

Even if we had a zillion gallons of oil sleeping off the west coast, how do you suppose we get it out of the ground? Who will pay the enormous costs of extraction? Where will we get the expert equipment and people required? Last time I checked we didn't have a major oil drilling company in Ireland.

Shell may well be getting off a bit lightly, but we're better off getting a small amount of tax on something that's actually real (i.e oil that is actually being drilled) than a high % of nothing. Because right now all this supposed oil we have is of little use to us while it remains sleeping with the fishes.

EDIT: I don't think we'll see the OP again somehow. Looks like a hit and run this one.

Independant IWU

zig wrote: »

Do you mean vote for the Socialist party? Or are you setting up a party?

I think the natural resources thing is a bit overoptimistic and simplified.

Regarding your maximum wage, how do you propose to keep people above the 100k in the country, because while in theory it is good , and no doubt fair, in the sense that our society will be more equal, its simply not realistic, why on earth would you hang around if you can earn 200k in Europe.

On another note,I personally do fear for workers rights in the coming years, and while I have never been a major lefty I do think that our obsession with keeping the companies happy SOLELY on the fact that they are the job suppliers is a dangerous and unhealthy means to go on.

The IWU does not field candidates nor endorse them, we simply ask people to vote in favour of their own interests and to vote against those who are supporting the current course.

The natural resources debate is an ideological debate. It is not a right / wrong, proper / improper issue. It can be done ANY way the electorate see fit. The implementation may or may not be a gritty affair, but worth it for the sake of the country.

Do Sweden or other high tax economies have an outflux of trained medical staff? Or do they have state of the art public services that put the rest of the world to shame?

Your last point is correct, particularly in relation to our coorperation tax. It seems so taboo, yet even if we raise it just a little we would still be the cheapest place to do business.

Independant IWU

nesf wrote: »

This is extremely close to being an advertisement. If you don't engage with posters and debate with them OP this thread will be deleted.

No fear, the IWU is here :cool:.

Independant IWU

Blowfish wrote: »

How is one of these theft and the other not?

If you think tax is robbery, thats your problem. If tax was not taken there would so no social cohesion and society would fall apart. The basis of this arguement is that tax is a counterweight to the inherent unfairness of the monitary system, where most of the money, for some odd reason, ends up with a very small number of people.

Independant IWU

rodento wrote: »

Thought most trade Union heads were paid well over 100,000

:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

The IWU is not associated with the failings of the mainstream unions nor does its staff indulge themselves so extravagantly :rolleyes:. However, we will work in solidarity with those who fight the good fight, whatever the mood or occasion.

Nelson Muntz

Independant IWU wrote: »

If you think tax is robbery, thats your problem. If tax was not taken there would so no social cohesion and society would fall apart. The basis of this arguement is that tax is a counterweight to the inherent unfairness of the monitary system, where most of the money, for some odd reason, ends up with a very small number of people.

Generally the people that spend a significant amount of time studying or business people that come up with a great idea then work for years to develop it.

Both of these are not worth doing under your 100k max idea.

If you are not a party & don't endorse candidates, you are just blowing hot air.

Independant IWU

aidan24326 wrote: »

And OP

as others have said, your approach to our (supposed) oil and gas reserves is simplistic and not thought out properly.

Even if we had a zillion gallons of oil sleeping off the west coast, how do you suppose we get it out of the ground? Who will pay the enormous costs of extraction? Where will we get the expert equipment and people required? Last time I checked we didn't have a major oil drilling company in Ireland.

Shell may well be getting off a bit lightly, but we're better off getting a small amount of tax on something that's actually real (i.e oil that is actually being drilled) than a high % of nothing. Because right now all this supposed oil we have is of little use to us while it remains sleeping with the fishes.

EDIT: I don't think we'll see the OP again somehow. Looks like a hit and run this one.

It has been said already, go by the norweigan example for the best effect. They could also help us with the expertize, provided we asked nicely on a civil and not a coorperate level.

Who will pay the enormous cost of extraction? Jeez, I dont know, perhaps that 7 billion euro of ours thats about to be put into anglo by Labour and Fine Gael would be enough.

Hit and run . Theres alot of hitters than are on the run, most particularly half the Fianna Fail cabinet and Harney the Hutt who should be lashed in public and have her pension taken away.

Independant IWU

Nelson Muntz wrote: »

If you are not a party & don't endorse candidates, you are just blowing hot air.

The IWU generally supports those of left who have a similar stance to us on the substantive issues that face our country. We feel an obligation to our membership and wider society to have our interests represented politically but we will not tell people who to vote for or how to vote.

Hot air!? During an election!? God forbid!

Nelson Muntz

Independant IWU wrote: »

The IWU generally supports those of left. We feel an obligation to our membership and wider society to have our interests represented politically but we will not tell people who to vote for or how to vote.

Hot air!? During an election!? God forbid!

Fair enough. I noticed that you didn't answer the question about keeping doctors or other professionals in the country for 100k.

How would you manage that?

Independant IWU

Nelson Muntz wrote: »

Fair enough. I noticed that you didn't answer the question about keeping doctors or other professionals in the country for 100k.

How would you manage that?

Independant IWU wrote: »

Do Sweden or other high tax economies have an outflux of trained medical staff? Or do they have state of the art public services that put the rest of the world to shame?

An unanswered counter question is as good an answer as any.

People are individuals, if they want to leave let them. There are as many replacements, domestic and foreign, who will gladly take their place.

What about those trainee nurses who are soon to be slave labour? What incentive do they have to stay in this country? I suppose they are not as important as somone on or over 100k?

Sticky_Fingers

Independant IWU wrote: »

An unanswered counter question is as good an answer as any.

People are individuals, if they want to leave let them. There are as many replacements, domestic and foreign, who will gladly take their place.

What about those trainee nurses who are soon to be slave labour? What incentive do they have to stay in this country? I suppose they are not as important as somone on or over 100k?

Someone could very well reply with the same mantra you just did:

"if they want to leave let them. There are as many (Qualified) replacements, domestic and foreign, who will gladly take their place"

rodento

Independant IWU wrote: »

What about those trainee nurses who are soon to be slave labour? What incentive do they have to stay in this country? I suppose they are not as important as somone on or over 100k?

Don't get me wrong, I thought they were in a job placement for gain experience.

And as such this is nothing than part of their college course

:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Should we pay everyone for going to college these days:eek:

Independant IWU

Sticky_Fingers wrote: »

Someone could very well reply with the same mantra you just did:

"if they want to leave let them. There are as many replacements, domestic and foreign, who will gladly take their place"

The distinction between the high earners and the trainee nurses is that the high earners would(theoretically) leave by choice while the nurses are being forced.

However, I doubt anyone on a good salary would leave by choice. This is a ridiculous arguement that only serves to line the pockets of those whose pockets are fat enough already.

Independant IWU

rodento wrote: »

Don't get me wrong, I thought they were in a job placement for gain experience.

And as such this is nothing than part of their college course

:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Should we pay everyone for going to college these days:eek:

They are working on the frontline, with as much responsibility as any fully trained staff and they allready get paid less.

Slavery has been abolished and should not be brought back in just because money is tight .

Sticky_Fingers

Independant IWU wrote: »

The distinction between the high earners and the trainee nurses is that the high earners would(theoretically) leave by choice while the nurses are being forced.

However, I doubt anyone on a good salary would leave by choice. This is a ridiculous arguement that only serves to line the pockets of those whose pockets are fat enough already.

Well I for one would not stay (and I'm not even a high earner). There is no incentive to make a success of yourself if the government is going to swoop in and redistribute the wealth you have created through your own hard work and ingenuity.

Independant IWU

Sticky_Fingers wrote: »

Well I for one would not stay (and I'm not even a high earner). There is no incentive to make a success of yourself if the government is going to swoop in and redistribute the wealth you have created through your own hard work and ingenuity.

The government has already redistributed the entire country to the banks and the IMF/ECB.

Dont let the door hit you in the ass on the way out, if we even have a door left by then.

Nelson Muntz

Independant IWU wrote: »

The government has already redistributed the entire country to the banks and the IMF/ECB.

Dont let the door hit you in the ass on the way out, if we even have a door left by then.

So by your logic, we are all better off dropping out of school & working for minimum wage our entire lives?

No point trying to be a success or make good money because the hard left headbangers want to take it off you & give it to someone else.

Sticky_Fingers

Independant IWU wrote: »

The government has already redistributed the entire country to the banks and the IMF/ECB.

Dont let the door hit you in the ass on the way out, if we even have a door left by then.

I have little time for the government and their carry on and did not agree with the bank bailouts in any way, shape or form. However this does not put me on the same side as the ULA or their ilk, I don't appreciate being raped by taxes by either the government socialising private losses or the fringe left socialising everything for "de workers".

As things stand if the cost of living and taxation goes up anymore in this country I will probably leave. I am not willing to pay for other peoples mistakes and I am most certainly not willing to bankroll the continuation of their disastrous policy of placating the unions who protect a bloated, inefficient and in some cases broken system.

nesf

nesf wrote: »

This is extremely close to being an advertisement. If you don't engage with posters and debate with them OP this thread will be deleted.

I'm satisfied the OP is engaging with posters sufficiently. The thread will not be deleted.

Chucky the tree

Independant IWU wrote: »

Do Sweden or other high tax economies have an outflux of trained medical staff? Or do they have state of the art public services that put the rest of the world to shame?

Since when have Sweden capped wages at 100k? Their highest tax rate is 55%.

Independant IWU

Nelson Muntz wrote: »

So by your logic, we are all better off dropping out of school & working for minimum wage our entire lives?

No point trying to be a success or make good money because the hard left headbangers want to take it off you & give it to someone else.

I didnt say that, I was merely pointing out that there are those who can afford to be hit and there are those who can not, yet we keep going back to the latter for more. By all means, be a success and make good money, but pay your way in accordance with what your able too for all your money was made from society in the first place, it didnt grow in trees.

You seem to be eluding to entrepreneurs, im talking about high earners in general(pub + priv) of which a certain proportion are entrepreneurs. Entrepreneurs are important and must be given space to create jobs, of course. This is not so for other high earners, such as high ranking civil servants, consultants and others, they do not create any jobs and there are zero tangable benifits from giving them large sums.

You dont need money to be a success, that school of thought is damaging, thats why we are where we are(its a great saying isnt it?). We need money to run this country(now more than ever) to provide at the very minimum a decent standard of living for all people. If some people have to go without holiday homes and yaughts to provide this, then so be it.

Its not the "hard left head bangers" that landed us in this mess. All the problems we now face originated from the right wing elements in our society who were left to run amok and wreak the gaff.

Independant IWU

Chucky the tree wrote: »

Since when have Sweden capped wages at 100k? Their highest tax rate is 55%.

I didnt say they are capped at 100k, I made them as an example to show that high tax economies do not have an outflux of wealthy people, which is an arguement being thrown here whenever the higher rate of tax is mentioned.

I must admit, there is a higher social ethic in sweden that we lack(just a little;)), so who knows what the reaction would be here if such a thing were introduced. Riots in dublin 4 perhaps?

Independant IWU

Sticky_Fingers wrote: »

As things stand if the cost of living and taxation goes up anymore in this country I will probably leave. I am not willing to pay for other peoples mistakes and I am most certainly not willing to bankroll the continuation of their disastrous policy of placating the unions who protect a bloated, inefficient and in some cases broken system.

The taxation increases should not be applied to people on the lower end and if your were to leave because of that you would be entirely justified in doing so.

The public sector is in disaray because it has been mismanaged by a minority of people on huge salaries. Spare a thought for the hundreds of thousands of normal public sector workers who have had no part to play in the disaster and who are being unjustly targeted.

Chucky the tree

Independant IWU wrote: »

I didnt say they are capped at 100k, I made them as an example to show that high tax economies do not have an outflux of wealthy people, which is an arguement being thrown here whenever the higher rate of tax is mentioned.

The highest personal tax rate in sweden is 59%, not 55%. Ireland is 41%. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_rates_around_the_world

Thats a difference of 18%. However, I must admit, there is a higher social ethic in sweden that we lack(just a little;)), so who knows what the reaction would be here if such a thing were introduced. Riots in dublin 4 perhaps?

This link says it was 55% from 2010, wiki is from 2008/2009.
http://www.capitaltaxconsulting.com/international-tax/sweden/swedish-income-tax/


What will be the tax rate be at before €100k though? No one will work for €99k while getting taxed at 41% if they can move somewhere else and earn far more money. They'll simply up and leave the country.

Nelson Muntz

Independant IWU wrote: »

I didnt say that, I was merely pointing out that there are those who can afford to be hit and there are those who can not, yet we keep going back to the latter for more. By all means, be a success and make good money, but pay your way in accordance with what your able too for all your money was made from society in the first place, it didnt grow in trees.

You seem to be eluding to entrepreneurs, im talking about high earners in general(pub + priv) of which a certain proportion are entrepreneurs. Entrepreneurs are important and must be given space to create jobs, of course. This is not so for other high earners, such as high ranking civil servants, consultants and others, they do not create any jobs and there are zero tangable benifits from giving them large sums.

You dont need money to be a success, that school of thought is damaging, thats why we are where we are(its a great saying isnt it?). We need money to run this country(now more than ever) to provide at the very minimum a decent standard of living for all people. If some people have to go without holiday homes and yaughts to provide this, then so be it.

Its not the "hard left head bangers" that landed us in this mess. All the problems we now face originated from the right wing elements in our society who were left to run amok and wreak the gaff.

I agree with what you say about money & success 100%.

But you can't for one minute say that PS wages bench marked out of sight by unions was a right wing operation. That is a major problem for the economy.

Independant IWU

Chucky the tree wrote: »

This link says it was 55% from 2010, wiki is from 2008/2009.
http://www.capitaltaxconsulting.com/international-tax/sweden/swedish-income-tax/


What will be the tax rate be at before €100k though? No one will work for €99k while getting taxed at 41% if they can move somewhere else and earn far more money. They'll simply up and leave the country.

A bit of lazy e-journalism from myself there, apologies. But still, Sweden and the like do not have a problem with high earners emigrating.

I can not say what specific taxes could or should be, suffices to say as long as a low/medium earners do not needlessly become impoverished while people on the top are able to get away almost unscathed. The IWU would be in general agreement with the tax policies of the real opposition parties, such as Sinn Fein, the ULA and similar.

Independant IWU

Nelson Muntz wrote: »

I agree with what you say about money & success 100%.

But you can't for one minute say that PS wages bench marked out of sight by unions was a right wing operation. That is a major problem for the economy.

There should be nothing wrong with the public sector earning as much as can be earned and having similar wages to the private sector as long as the public purse is not being fleeced. It is best not to have a divide.

That said, there are indeed alot of PS wages that are outrageous; top union heads, gov ministers and consultants come to mind. The judges aswell :rolleyes:, but no one wants to mess with those lads.

The public sector only became an issue once the economy went down the jacks, this timing clearly shows the opportunistic nature of the entire arguement. One could easily make the same argument about our low tax base and attribute blame there for our huge deficit. The blame is neither here nor there, it is with the government of the last 13 years.

rodento

And you don't blame the Unions for some arcane work practices that have lead to huge inefficiencies (like the porters) and a massive waste of money on allowances, like car allowences given to people who don't even drive to work:eek:

Manach

The private sector at least have a breakpoint for incompetent decisions in that the market forces purge failing companies.
As for judges, FYI you literally cannot changed their wages as per the Bunreacht.

southsiderosie

Independant IWU wrote: »

There should be nothing wrong with the public sector earning as much as can be earned and having similar wages to the private sector as long as the public purse is not being fleeced. It is best not to have a divide.

That said, there are indeed alot of PS wages that are outrageous; top union heads, gov ministers and consultants come to mind. The judges aswell :rolleyes:, but no one wants to mess with those lads.

I agree that there needs to be limits on high earners in the public sector, but I disagree that private and public sector wages should converge.

Traditionally public sector workers earned less than those in the private sector in similar roles since public sector jobs are far more protected. Basically public sector workers trade higher earnings for job security (and in most cases, regular hours that are more family-friendly; hence why so many women end up in the public sector). Yet with benchmarking, public sector workers earn as much if not more than their private sector counterparts, but it is almost impossible to fire them.

EricPraline

Independant IWU wrote: »

There should be nothing wrong with the public sector earning as much as can be earned and having similar wages to the private sector as long as the public purse is not being fleeced. It is best not to have a divide.

So you are advocating the end of defined benefit pensions for public sector workers, which are guaranteed and paid for by the taxpayer? At a time when private sector pensions have been largely decimated, as you say, it is best not to have a divide.

aidan24326

Independant IWU wrote: »

It has been said already, go by the norweigan example for the best effect. They could also help us with the expertize, provided we asked nicely on a civil and not a coorperate level.

Who will pay the enormous cost of extraction? Jeez, I dont know, perhaps that 7 billion euro of ours thats about to be put into anglo by Labour and Fine Gael would be enough.

Hit and run . Theres alot of hitters than are on the run, most particularly half the Fianna Fail cabinet and Harney the Hutt who should be lashed in public and have her pension taken away.

You'll get no argument from me on that one. But the fact remains that we don't have the resources or expertise to drill our own oil (if it even exists, and that's speculative).

Yes I know all those billions going down the anglo black hole would be a good start, but none of the parties likely to be in power seem willing to renege on that deal, why I don't know. There's more to this than we're being told that's for sure.

Believe me I'm all for change but what any party proposes, you or otherwise, has to be realistic and workable, not just ideological dreaming.