The Story Of Ireland

bodhrandude

I really enjoyed this last night, a well researched documentary on the history of Ireland, this would be on par with the History of Scotland. What did everyone else think of this.

ArtSmart

bodhrandude wrote: »

I really enjoyed this last night, a well researched documentary on the history of Ireland, this would be on par with the History of Scotland. What did everyone else think of this.

you sayin Scottish history is as good as Ireland's???



Caught the last twenty mins, very impressed.

will watch it on player later

thank goodness for rte player. very handy

Grid.

Really enjoyed it too! Fergal Keane did a good job! When is the next episode??

FrostyJack

Gridlock wrote: »

When is the next episode??

Next Tuesday.

Brilliant episode, must better than I expected. I think some of our less informed friends will be shocked with some of the realities it showed (but will probably still believe their fairy tales). Look forward to next week, should be interesting. Thank you very much RTE player

Darlughda

I was a bit disappointed with this tbh.

So far, it has been no more than an updated version of primary school history.

Yes, great that we are getting away from the 19th century ideas of nationalistic celtic identity, and we are more an atlantic mish mash as Bob Quinn laid out in his book. But still nothing new.

For example, when discussing the death of Brian Boru, Feargal Quinn just said 'He prayed to God'.

No mention was made of the pivotal role of Aoibeall, who was the Bean Shídhe of his clann, and features regularly in the folklore of Brian Boru's demise.

Indeed, no mention at all of the Brehon laws and society, how christianity and the new order impacted on the day to day lives of ordinary people, and what exactly was day to day life for a person, and the life they lived in.

Did we really need to be told, yet again, that the gold collars were for people of high status? Duh!
Interviewing people from the National Museum, and academics like Daibhí Ó Cróinin, is pointless unless interesting and unusual questions are asked. Not the same old, same old that anyone with an interest in the subject could answer easily.

I hope this series improves.

ollaetta

There's a right old barney going on here about it: http://www.politics.ie/media/151477-fergal-keanes-strawman-ireland.html

The first poster is certainly no fan of Fergal Keane!

riffmongous

I didn't like it at all, there was nothing new in it for me so I found the presentation quite irritating.

I also got really annoyed by the way he seemed to be visiting all these different countries for what boils down to a minute of footage, something that also annoyed me during that blood of the Irish program last year. Is the purpose of all these shows really just to give free holidays?

Syferus

riffmongous wrote: »

I didn't like it at all, there was nothing new in it for me so I found the presentation quite irritating.

I also got really annoyed by the way he seemed to be visiting all these different countries for what boils down to a minute of footage, something that also annoyed me during that blood of the Irish program last year. Is the purpose of all these shows really just to give free holidays?

I'm sure most countries will have been used for both research and further on-screen segments in the five subsequent parts.

Kev_ps3

I agree, I found it anti-Irish, he is clearly a west brit with an agenda.

riffmongous

Syferus wrote: »

I'm sure most countries will have been used for both research and further on-screen segments in the five subsequent parts.

Probably in future episodes this will apply for England and America, but if its chronological it will be hard to re-use certain countries, Norway for example

Syferus

Kev_ps3 wrote: »

I agree, I found it anti-Irish, he is clearly a west brit with an agenda.

Does anyone else gag at at the mere mention of 'West Brit'? It's always stuck me as a very archaic and offensive term not just at who it's obviously directed to-wards, but to me as an Irish person, living on an island that for that has been divided in so many ways and for so many pointless reasons.

I'm sure the question will come up from the more cynical among you so I'll pre-empt it - I was been born and bred in Connacht and I am, last I checked, from a Roman Catholic family. There's underlying issues, sure, but the irony is anyone who uses the term is being even more divisive than the person they're deriding to be just that.

Duckworth_Luas

For a "groundbreaking" series it dosen't offer anything other than viewing Junior Cert level Irish history through a post-nationalist prism. Genuine historians must be fuming that a lowly journalist was chosen by the BBC to present this shoddy account of our story.

It's quite disappointing that in a six part series we are already at the Cambro-Norman invasion. It seems he was in quite a rush to get to Norman/English/British interference with Irish affairs, probably because the series was produced for a British audience.

For this very reason though I was quite surprised that the significant figure of Columcille was overlooked. He introduced Christianity to northern Britain, a form of Christianity at odds with Roman Catholicism. It was the destruction of this form of worship that gave legitimacy to the Lordship of Ireland. However, I'm sure that next week he will instead dwell on Diarmaid MacMurrough and tell us the amazing revelation that "we" invited the British over!:rolleyes:

Beanntraigheach

Keane presents us with a series of "nationalist myths", held by nobody outside of his own imagination, and then proceeds to "demolish" them with astounding revelations like:
-Ireland has interacted with the outside world throughout its history.
-We aren't 100% pure-blooded "Celts".
-Brian Boru may have been motivated by more than blind patriotism.

Wow! Who knew.

Deeply unimpressive, tired, "revisionist" fare.

SugarHigh

Darlughda wrote: »

But still nothing new.

That's just typical of these bloody history programs. I was watching a documentary on WW2 the other and as fúcking usual the Germans lose.
Change it up people.:mad:

MagicMarker

It's online now...

http://www.rte.ie/player/#v=1091139

riffmongous

SugarHigh wrote: »

That's just typical of these bloody history programs. I was watching a documentary on WW2 the other and as fúcking usual the Germans lose.
Change it up people.:mad:

:pac:


What are the odds that after spending 5 out of 6 episodes focusing on the British part of our history he'll tell us that all are modern problems are because we won't let go of the British part of our history :rolleyes:

Mr.Nice Guy

I thought it came across as if it had an agenda too which disappointed me.

Firetrap

Is it going to be shown on the BBC? I enjoyed it. Thought it was in the vein of the 7 Ages of Britain that David Dimbleby did

Zatoichi

Beanntraigheach wrote: »

Keane presents us with a series of "nationalist myths", held by nobody outside of his own imagination, and then proceeds to "demolish" them with astounding revelations like:
-Ireland has interacted with the outside world throughout its history.
-We aren't 100% pure-blooded "Celts".
-Brian Boru may have been motivated by more than blind patriotism.

Wow! Who knew.

Deeply unimpressive, tired, "revisionist" fare.

Just watched the first episode and I have to agree. I'm surprised they have the gall to present it in such a revelatory manner.

Min

It is interesting.

btw Irish people aren't Celts, genetic studies show we share the same genetics as people from Northern Spain, same goes for the Welsh and Scots.

riffmongous

Did the Statutes of Kilkenny get a mention? I sort of drifted out after they said how the most typical Irish traits like our laws and hedges were English

Duckworth_Luas

Min wrote: »

It is interesting.

The most interesting part is how poor Keane's primary school history education was.

Min wrote: »

btw Irish people aren't Celts, genetic studies show we share the same genetics as people from Northern Spain, same goes for the Welsh and Scots.

Yeah, did you also know that Freddie Mercury was gay!

Duckworth_Luas

riffmongous wrote: »

I sort of drifted out after they said how the most typical Irish traits like our laws and hedges were English

I lolled!

youcrazyjesus!

I've been watching tonight's episode and I've had to scoop my jaw up off the floor. My scheming, barbarian, duplicitous not to mention Catholic ears and eyes are telling me this is an Irish history episode of David Starkey's Monarchy (a fantastic series in its' own context) and David Starkey has somehow taken control of Fergal Keane's body. The show is to my Gaelic prejudices an anti-Irish, anti-Catholic propaganda piece that goes out of its' way to portray the issues from a narrow perspective of the medieval English ruling class.

I'll make a judgement on the series as a whole but right now I am shocked.

riffmongous

Duckworth_Luas wrote: »

I lolled!

Can you imagine the state of the country if our English betters hadn't come over to civilize us? There'd be no laws and cattle roaming all over the place! :rolleyes:

Duckworth_Luas

riffmongous wrote: »

Can you imagine the state of the country if our English betters hadn't come over to civilize us? There'd be no laws and cattle roaming all over the place! :rolleyes:

I lolled because the hedges you see today are a result of the Land League, the Irish land war and the various land acts where land was transferred to the Irish people. They're only 100 years old and are there in spite of the "English" not because of them.

mossyc123

The dastardly scheming Church in Rome are only interested in Ireland as a pawn for advancing the counter-reformation whilst poor Queen Lizzie struggles desperately with her "Irish Problem". :eek:

As far as I know the Pope has never sent any armies to destroy us.

The other shower across the water have consistently brutalised us and this can never be lost sight of now matter what way you choose to narrate it.

We nearly bankrupted the empire following the Battle of Kinsale... is that somehow supposed to justify the 500 years previous and 300 years hence of brutal oppression?!

Duckworth_Luas

mossyc123 wrote: »

As far as I know the Pope has never sent any armies to destroy us.

Fergal forgot to mention that the initial Pope who commissioned the Norman invasion of Ireland, Pope Adrian, was also know to his English parents as Nicolas Breakspere. Why was that overlooked?

It appears to me that this is an effort to explain the current Irish political division to a British audience. Skip over the entire history of Gaelic Ireland as quickly as possible in two episodes. Episode 1 ends at the Norman invasion and the start of English interference in Irish affairs. Episode 2 ends with the plantations and the introduction of the current "artificial" divisions.

For a program called The Story of Ireland there's also very little mention of the Irish people and how these events effected them. As has been mentioned there has been more focus on English monarchs and English society in Ireland than on the Gaelic Irish themselves.

mike65

Robert Key, they should show this again.

http://www.screenonline.org.uk/tv/id/898500/

mossyc123

Duckworth_Luas wrote: »

Fergal forgot to mention that the initial Pope who commissioned the Norman invasion of Ireland, Pope Adrian, was also know to his English parents as Nicolas Breakspere. Why was that overlooked?

Doesn't fit in with the current consensus that the Catholic Church is the greatest evil to have ever been foisted upon us... :rolleyes:

Noticed a bit of this in the Diarmuid Ferriter programme before Christmas aswell.

fontanalis

Min wrote: »

It is interesting.

btw Irish people aren't Celts, genetic studies show we share the same genetics as people from Northern Spain, same goes for the Welsh and Scots.

That was "discovered" when population genetics was in it's infancy and only a low level of detail was looked at, more detailed studies show Irish and the Basques (the people who it was considered shared close ancestry) are at different ends of the branch, so to speak.

Kev_ps3

The title of this documentary should be 'The Story of the English in Ireland, from a west brit perspective'
Absolute dribble.

alastair

I thought it was pretty good. The kneejerk reaction displayed in this thread isn't surprising though - yeah; much of the material is well known, and the first episode didn't really warrant the 're-assessing the myths' preamble, but it's only episode one - he's laying out the entire series, not an episode.

Given that the greatest influence in our country's history is undoubtedly the dynamics between ourselves and English authority, it's kind of hard to avoid dwelling on the history of the English in Ireland as a core componant of the Story of Ireland, and if Feargal Keane's school history education was like anyone elses's of his generation, it was pretty slanted nationalistic agit-prop (even allowing for his teacher with the Carson question that prompted such a reaction from the pupils - exception that proves the norm).

West Brit agenda my arse.

The Sparrow

I was just bored by it. Admittedly, I have only seen the first episode but it was just far too dull and far too much of it was spent in the National Museum.

Plus for something that seemed to promise revelations about our history, it was all pretty standard stuff that the majority of us would have known already.

Beanntraigheach

The Sparrow wrote: »

Plus for something that seemed to promise revelations about our history, it was all pretty standard stuff that the majority of us would have known already.

Keane's arrogant assumption that his programme will be a "revelation" to the Irish people exposes clearly the insultingly low opinion he and his ilk have of the average Irish person's understanding of their own history and the motivations behind their political beliefs.

Apparently, while students the world over were receiving a fair, impartial and comprehensive education in history, we poor ignorant Micks were being fed a pack of lies by fanatical IRA-loving teachers and sinister Romish monks! Thankfully Fergal Keane OBE is here to bring us the truth :rolleyes:

alastair

Beanntraigheach wrote: »

Apparently, while students the world over were receiving a fair, impartial and comprehensive education in history, we poor ignorant Micks were being fed a pack of lies by fanatical IRA-loving teachers and sinister Romish monks! Thankfully Fergal Keane OBE is here to bring us the truth :rolleyes:

Didn't hear any claim that 'students the world over were receiving a fair, impartial and comprehensive education in history', but no matter.

Fed pack of lies? Check
Fanatical IRA-loving teachers? Well if fanatical Patrick Pearse loving teachers count, then let's just say fanatical IRB-loving teachers - Check
Sinister Romish monks? Nope, just the common or garden Parish Priest oversight of primary and (to a lesser degree) secondary education - which was/is bad enough.

That might not have been your reality, but it was certainly mine, and pretty much the norm for my generation.

Duckworth_Luas

alastair wrote: »

Fed pack of lies? Check

That's interesting! What lies were you fed? All history curricula were, and still are, textbook based. If your history education was based on lies then these books would surely contain these inaccuracies and you can prove your ridiculous claim.

I studied history from the ages of 9 to 18 and it was very fair and balanced. Like Cromwell himself, Irish history was painted "warts and all". If, for example, your preference was for Craig, Collins or De Valera it didn't matter, how could it when the subject matter dealt with facts?

Keane is presenting a documentary series but is committing the unforgivable sin of also presenting us with his own personal prejudices. He glibly claims that he was thought nothing of certain Gaelic chieftains offering homage to Henry II, as if such a major event was somehow subsequently blotted out of Irish history books. As ridiculous a claim as that we should thankful that the English gave us our hedgerows.:rolleyes:

What will Fergal's later revelations be? That O'Connell wasn't a Republican? That Parnell was a Protestant? That Carson was an Irish Unionist?

The one thing I fear about the later episodes of this series is that Eoghan "Harristotle" Harris is bound to show up.

Dean Roche

bodhrandude wrote: »

I really enjoyed this last night, a well researched documentary on the history of Ireland, this would be on par with the History of Scotland. What did everyone else think of this.

Our history is noting like Scotland’s, don’t be taking in by films like Rob Roy and braveheart which 80% of it is bulls**t. England and Scotland always had a good relationship. The English never really seen the Scots as a natural enemy, they did however seen the Irish too rebellious and far more troublesome.

bodhrandude

Enjoyed this last night again, but a few criticisms mainly on the accompanying music. The music was powerful enough, but seems to lack an identity, no offense meant against the musicians but when themes such as emigration was discussed I thought it would have been more appropriate to use actual airs, jigs and reels rather than Celtic sounding mood pieces, tracks that could have been used to emphasize the sorrow of leaving such as the air Happy to Meet Sorry to Part and reels like Farewell to Ireland. When discussing the risings in 1798, I felt Keane could have elaborated more on the Wexford rising, there was a small mention, but nothing on the Battle of Vinegar Hill. This is where the music could have also played a part with a rendition of Boolavogue.

Another thing Keane could have discussed more was the Penal times, where Irish traditional musicians were reduced to merely didelling or recreating their tunes by simple mouth music, this was not discussed about the banning of traditional instruments much like what happened in Scotland with the bagpipes and players such as MacCrimmon.

Saying that I still enjoyed this very much.

Cris Jones

Who was the guy Fergal Keane asked was Cromwell really that bad in Ireland and the guy said no. :eek: who was that cromwells relative??:D

Kev_ps3

Loved the dark music when it came to the parts about the native Irish rebelling against the invaders and the positive music when it came to the invaders defending their land.
The sooner we eradicate these insects the better.

KerranJast

Cris Jones wrote: »

Who was the guy Fergal Keane asked was Cromwell really that bad in Ireland and the guy said no. :eek: who was that cromwells relative??:D

His point was that Cromwell wasn't some murderous demon who loved butchering Irish people. He was a ruthless bastard for sure as the events at Drogheda show but he was back in England when the real horror was inflicted on the Irish civilian population and the blame for that lies with the commanders of the Army on the ground. To lump everything on one man is to absolve a huge bulk of the English (and Irish) ruling class as well.

Kev_ps3 wrote: »

Loved the dark music when it came to the parts about the native Irish rebelling against the invaders and the positive music when it came to the invaders defending their land.
The sooner we eradicate these insects the better.

Jebus. Did you learn nothing from what Wolf Tone stood for?

Cris Jones

Darlughda wrote: »

I was a bit disappointed with this tbh.



I hope this series improves.

So do I but at this point I can't see it.

KerranJast wrote: »

His point was that Cromwell wasn't some murderous demon who loved butchering Irish people. He was a ruthless bastard for sure as the events at Drogheda show but he was back in England when the real horror was inflicted on the Irish civilian population and the blame for that lies with the commanders of the Army on the ground. To lump everything on one man is to absolve a huge bulk of the English (and Irish) ruling class as well.

Cromwell showed his -commanders- how to do it before he went back to England didn't he
:-p


U said [quoted)
-To lump everything on one man is to absove a huge bulk of the English and Irish ruling class as well-) end of u quote -

---

cromwell was part of the english ruling class but definitely not the irish, you arent' the guy in the programme are you because I didnt catch his name and fergal keane just accepted what he had to say, which was -no- to cromwell being bad.

bodhrandude

Mr Keane in this final episode you forgot to mention two important characters, Dr Noel Browne, especially when talking about the Catholic churches dominance with education and politics. On the period of civil unrest in Northern Ireland in the late 60s there was no mention of Lynch having the Irish army on standby at the border, I know there was a programme dedicated to this a few months back, but he still should have been mentioned.

Cris Jones

I liked the part where he said to President McAleese that the idea of modern Ireland is not just catholic and gael but she was great, she came back at him with- there are still plenty of catholics and gaels! President McAleese is from a part of Ireland that saw plenty of terrors and they weren't always done by the IRA as she well knows and Fergal should know. If Fergal mentioned that protestant or unionist terrors were done he always had to say that these were in reprisal for catholic terrors even if they weren't.:rolleyes: In fairness though I think the BBC and RTE did this series for people who don't know the history of the country and that is ok and I don't just mean the unionists but anybody on the street. People can research more if they want to after seeing the series.

MaceFace

Was wondering if there was a thread about this because I think the program is fantastic.
Okay, I missed the first episode and have not seen the last episode (last night RTE2 appeared to show episode 4 and RTE showed episode 2 - was I mistaken) yet - will watch it on the Beed this weekend.

I am a big fan of history and I don't understand the nonsense that some people are saying in this thread (or on p.ie).
Yeah, it was high level and didn't cover everything, but what do you expect from a 5 hour series that covers over a thousand years of history.
(The World At War was a 26 part documentary about just 6 years)

From the perspective of how balanced the show was, after seeing episodes 2-4, I can't say I noticed anything wrong with it - it demonstrated the atrocities that were commited by the English mainly, but also by the Irish themselves. Most people in Ireland didn't (and probably don't) give two hoots who is ruling them as long as they are seen as fair.

The main thing though is that the vast majority of people in Ireland don't remember most of the material (ask the average Joe what the Flight of the Earls was or even who Trevelyon was and they wouldn't know).

Taken for what it is - it is an excellent, easy to follow, recap of the history of Ireland which is aimed at the typical TV viewer rather than enthusiast.

Ash.J.Williams

MaceFace wrote: »

Was wondering if there was a thread about this because I think the program is fantastic.
Okay, I missed the first episode and have not seen the last episode (last night RTE2 appeared to show episode 4 and RTE showed episode 2 - was I mistaken) yet - will watch it on the Beed this weekend.

I am a big fan of history and I don't understand the nonsense that some people are saying in this thread (or on p.ie).
Yeah, it was high level and didn't cover everything, but what do you expect from a 5 hour series that covers over a thousand years of history.
(The World At War was a 26 part documentary about just 6 years)

From the perspective of how balanced the show was, after seeing episodes 2-4, I can't say I noticed anything wrong with it - it demonstrated the atrocities that were commited by the English mainly, but also by the Irish themselves. Most people in Ireland didn't (and probably don't) give two hoots who is ruling them as long as they are seen as fair.

The main thing though is that the vast majority of people in Ireland don't remember most of the material (ask the average Joe what the Flight of the Earls was or even who Trevelyon was and they wouldn't know).

Taken for what it is - it is an excellent, easy to follow, recap of the history of Ireland which is aimed at the typical TV viewer rather than enthusiast.

Not a very nice man!!

MaceFace

Ash.J.Williams wrote: »

Not a very nice man!!

Aye, and I bet if you asked the average man on the street he would say "Yeah, I know that name - oh yeah, its from The Fields of Athenry".
Thats about the limit of the knowledge of most people.

A.Tomas

This is the type of Irish history programme you would expect from some insufferable lackey acting out his mandate as an officer of the British empire ... hold on!

Cris Jones

MaceFace wrote: »

Was wondering if there was a thread about this because I think the program is fantastic.
Okay, I missed the first episode and have not seen the last episode (last night RTE2 appeared to show episode 4 and RTE showed episode 2 - was I mistaken) yet - will watch it on the Beed this weekend.

I am a big fan of history and I don't understand the nonsense that some people are saying in this thread (or on p.ie).
Yeah, it was high level and didn't cover everything, but what do you expect from a 5 hour series that covers over a thousand years of history.
(The World At War was a 26 part documentary about just 6 years)

From the perspective of how balanced the show was, after seeing episodes 2-4, I can't say I noticed anything wrong with it - it demonstrated the atrocities that were commited by the English mainly, but also by the Irish themselves. Most people in Ireland didn't (and probably don't) give two hoots who is ruling them as long as they are seen as fair.

The main thing though is that the vast majority of people in Ireland don't remember most of the material (ask the average Joe what the Flight of the Earls was or even who Trevelyon was and they wouldn't know).

Taken for what it is - it is an excellent, easy to follow, recap of the history of Ireland which is aimed at the typical TV viewer rather than enthusiast.

MaceFace wrote: »

Aye, and I bet if you asked the average man on the street he would say "Yeah, I know that name - oh yeah, its from The Fields of Athenry".
Thats about the limit of the knowledge of most people.

RTE show the repeat of the episode shown on the Tuesday before that on RTE 1. So you didn't see the episode 5 and you said you didn't see episode 1. I have watched all the episodes and can post my opinion here if I want to and so can the other forum members - especially if they have watched the series which you haven't yet. So how can you say people have posted 'nonsense' if they have watched it all and you haven't.
You then go on to say that not only the English did "atrocities" but the Irish you wouldn't be coming in on a biased opinion would you with that statement - I think you might - :rolleyes: or maybe you read my post on the last page of the thread and are just answering back in spite or maybe you just don't know what you are talking about as you said yourself you haven't watched the whole series but are coming in here telling off the people who have.
You say "take it for what it is" a story of the history for people who don't know the history and you go on to say people here wouldn't have heard of Trevelyan eg, but now I see that you have read my post on the other page as it was me who said it was a history series maybe aimed at people who don't know all the history. I also said that was ok if they didn't know all the history - because the series is educational - but you are coming on here thinking you know it all without watching the whole series and you sound pretty rude TBH.
I actually thought the series was pretty good. I could argue with some things that were said in it but the BBC and RTE did a good job on the whole and they weren't rude [obviously you were not involved in the making of it then};)
"The vast amount of people in Ireland dont remember most of the material" how do you know - have you done a survey! Or are you just trolling. Probably.

Predator_

I thought it was criminal it was so anti-Irish, but thats standard for west brit RTE