christians and sickness

virmilitaris

A close friend of mine recently gave birth to twins and one of them has a serious defect. Most of the family are quite christian so they spent the last few weeks praying.

Something I can't understand is how christians integrate such a situation with their beliefs.
If the child was born healthy they would have thanked god.

Their god is apparently the creator of this child and if so didn't he make it sick?

If the child gets better they will then thank god yet if the child dies I assume they won't blame their god.

Can you imagine a doctor telling someone their child died because the doctor works in mysterious ways.

What is the usual response to this ? What would you say to the parents in my position?

I was talking to the mother today and she feels it has happened because she hasn't been a good enough christian.

Dades

A prime example of cognitive dissonance?

A horrible situation for any parent, Christian or otherwise.

virmilitaris wrote: »

What is the usual response to this ? What would you say to the parents in my position?

The right response (imo) is that they are in your thoughts, and that you are there if they need anything.

Any other thoughts should be buried. Deep.

hinault

virmilitaris wrote: »

A close friend of mine recently gave birth to twins and one of them has a serious defect. Most of the family are quite christian so they spent the last few weeks praying.

Something I can't understand is how christians integrate such a situation with their beliefs.
If the child was born healthy they would have thanked god.

Their god is apparently the creator of this child and if so didn't he make it sick?

If the child gets better they will then thank god yet if the child dies I assume they won't blame their god.

Can you imagine a doctor telling someone their child died because the doctor works in mysterious ways.

What is the usual response to this ? What would you say to the parents in my position?

Dreadful situation for any parents to find themselves in.

I can only speak from personal experience.

Our niece was born with a very serious genetic condition three years ago this month.
We only had her for three days sadly.

As a RC, we prayed for our niece knowing that it was really only a matter of time. Selfishly perhaps and knowing that time was limited, we prayed to God that we would have her for longer. It wasn't to be.
Those three days that we had her were too little butt we were extremely grateful even for that limited time we had with her.

Did we blame God for this birth defect? being honest at the time I did feel anger that this was allowed to happen. I felt angry for the baby and I felt angry for the parents who had looked forward to the arrival of their first child only to have her taken away.
In time that anger subsided.

Part of the reason why this anger subsided is because I learnt from the doctors that the genetic condition that she had was so rare as to be almost unknown and that the doctors were able to learn from this experience which will help other unfortunate parents in the future.
I also came in to contact with an organisation which helps parents who lose a little baby and this also helped my perspective.

robindch

virmilitaris wrote: »

What is the usual response to this ? What would you say to the parents in my position? I was talking to the mother today and she feels it has happened because she hasn't been a good enough christian.

I'm (mostly) with Dades on this, but if somebody came to me in confidence and told me that they were feeling this kind of nonsensical guilt, then while I can't immediately think of what I might say and while I'd leave the personal feelings well out of it, I don't think I'd stand idly by and let the religion which caused this guilt to go unchallenged.

Has she been told, or has it been implied, by some religious preacher that some deity is displeased? Or is she developing the feeling herself?

virmilitaris

robindch wrote: »

I'm (mostly) with Dades on this, but if somebody came to me in confidence and told me that they were feeling this kind of nonsensical guilt, then while I can't immediately think of what I might say and while I'd leave the personal feelings well out of it, I don't think I'd stand idly by and let the religion which caused this guilt to go unchallenged.

I agree but I also feel that she is just looking for something or someone to blame. She's in a very fragile "Did I do something wrong ?" state.

Has she been told, or has it been implied, by some religious preacher that some deity is displeased? Or is she developing the feeling herself?

Not that I know of. I do know that her preacher has requested the whole family to come to church everyday to pray and her father is pushing them all to do so.

virmilitaris

virmilitaris wrote: »

Not that I know of. I do know that her preacher has requested the whole family to come to church everyday to pray and her father is pushing them all to do so.

I have to say that maybe being with a preacher as a shoulder to cry on and giving guidance and sort of community stuff may not be the worst thing, it's understandable.
I would agree "you're in my thoughts and this isn't anybody's fault" would be the best thing to express.

Dades

virmilitaris wrote: »

I was talking to the mother today and she feels it has happened because she hasn't been a good enough christian.

I think this bit was added after an edit so I missed it.

robindch wrote: »

I'm (mostly) with Dades on this, but if somebody came to me in confidence and told me that they were feeling this kind of nonsensical guilt, then while I can't immediately think of what I might say and while I'd leave the personal feelings well out of it, I don't think I'd stand idly by and let the religion which caused this guilt to go unchallenged.

Totally agree about not allowing such as feeling of guilt to continue - although voiced in such a way as to not pull the rug out from under them. The RC guilt complex has a lot to answer for.

Zillah

"Your position is entirely unreasonable! Your brain must be as defective as your new born's heart!"

Dave!

Reminds me of the bottom-left one here:



If the child turns out healthy, then it'll of course be because of god's grace or whatever. Ignore the fact that he was apparently responsible for the defect in the first place!

virmilitaris

What I cannot fathom is how Christians cannot see the absolute ridiculousness of maintaining such a position with such beliefs.

god created us and loves us. Ok what about sick children? He doesn't love them?
We must pray to god and he will help us. And if he doesn't? He doesn't love us, doesn't exist or what ?

Am I missing out on the Christian explanation for these things? Have they anything besides "he works in mysterious ways"?

Regarding the mother, I explained to her that whilst I don't believe in god I don't think a god is going to punish her or anyone in such a fashion for not been a good enough christian when there are people like me and Zillah much more deserving of punishment running around.

Regarding her pastor, he didn't say god was or wasn't punishing her or that it was or wasn't her fault but that she simply needed to put her trust in god.

Zillah how did you guess the childs problem was his heart?

Zillah

I can sense genetic flaws like a priest senses vulnerability.

There really is no intelligent or reasonable explanation for how people can hold such contradictory thoughts in their heads. There are preposterous assumptions and tortured rationalisations, little more. Often there is nothing at all beyond a gormless and isolated faith that some how everything is nice and wondeful no matter what. I think it is a symptom of the submission to God that is the foundation of many people's religious beliefs. You essentially accept that you are the property of another entity, so not only do you not act against Him, you do not even doubt or question him. Total, repulsive, child like submission to authority.

Beruthiel

virmilitaris wrote: »

I was talking to the mother today and she feels it has happened because she hasn't been a good enough christian.

Yes, because a loving god doesn't forgive you for your human weaknesses, instead he punishes you in the most wicked way possible and then, makes you suffer in guilt for the rest of your life.
Nice.

I do hope your friend gets help in seeing that this had absolutely nothing to do with how she behaved as a person.
We are all subject to the flaws in our genes. Nothing we do either way can change that.

Were I you, I'd learn more about how this happened so that you can at least tell her the scientific reason so she knows it was out of her control.
And what Dades said above, you are there for her.

virmilitaris

hinault wrote: »

As a RC, we prayed for our niece knowing that it was really only a matter of time. Selfishly perhaps and knowing that time was limited, we prayed to God that we would have her for longer. It wasn't to be.
Those three days that we had her were too little butt we were extremely grateful even for that limited time we had with her.

I'm sorry for your loss but how do you rectify this with your beliefs ?

Do you believe god created us? If so doesn't god create children with genetic defects? Why does god do this?

If you pray for a sick child and that child lives you will thank god yes?
If you pray for a sick child and that child dies what will you think of god and why?

If the answer to those are that god has a plan then what is the point in praying since the child will live or die depending on gods plan and not on your praying?

Surely using logical deduction you must come to at least some of these conclusions
a) there is no god b) god doesn't interfere or god interferes sometimes depending on his plan c) prayer is of no use.

MagicMarker

hinault wrote: »

Part of the reason why this anger subsided is because I learnt from the doctors that the genetic condition that she had was so rare as to be almost unknown and that the doctors were able to learn from this experience which will help other unfortunate parents in the future.
I also came in to contact with an organisation which helps parents who lose a little baby and this also helped my perspective.

Shouldn't your anger increase because god gave a girl an almost unknown genetic condition causing her death? How many little girls have to die before enough is known of this condition to enable doctors to treat it successfully?

Galvasean

Zillah wrote: »

I think it is a symptom of the submission to God that is the foundation of many people's religious beliefs. You essentially accept that you are the property of another entity, so not only do you not act against Him, you do not even doubt or question him. Total, repulsive, child like submission to authority.

So basically, the religious are God's gimps?

*Notice how I struck out 'child like'. No child should ever be religious a gimp.

eoin5

I think some people might not really believe and in a sortof pascals wager type deal they say or do things in more of a hopeful but unsure way. These would be people who don't have a personal relationship with god but would be willing to take a miracle if one was going maybe.

irishh_bob

virmilitaris wrote: »

A close friend of mine recently gave birth to twins and one of them has a serious defect. Most of the family are quite christian so they spent the last few weeks praying.

Something I can't understand is how christians integrate such a situation with their beliefs.
If the child was born healthy they would have thanked god.

Their god is apparently the creator of this child and if so didn't he make it sick?

If the child gets better they will then thank god yet if the child dies I assume they won't blame their god.

Can you imagine a doctor telling someone their child died because the doctor works in mysterious ways.

What is the usual response to this ? What would you say to the parents in my position?

I was talking to the mother today and she feels it has happened because s
he hasn't been a good enough christian.

god likes to have his cake and eat it , anything possitive that happens in the world , credit god , anything negative , he doesnt want to know

pass your driving test
win and oscar
get a raise at work
beat cancer

thats god


tsunami which kills 250,000 poor people
young girl walking home from work gets randomly attacked
child born with debilitating illness

free will , yada yada yada

TwoShedsJackson

irishh_bob wrote: »

god likes to have his cake and eat it , anything possitive that happens in the world , credit god , anything negative , he doesnt want to know

pass your driving test
win and oscar
get a raise at work
beat cancer

thats god


tsunami which kills 250,000 poor people
young girl walking home from work gets randomly attacked
child born with debilitating illness

free will , yada yada yada

You forgot the 'God works in mysterious ways' excuse for the bad stuff.

MrPudding

I makes me very cross when I see people thanking god for saving a relative and littlenor no thanks go to the medic team that actually did the saving.

Thanking god for saving you from a disease or injuries received in an accident is kind of like thanking a doctor that shoots you and then provides first aid that saves you life. Kind of stupid.

I think we should have a "praise the medics" sticky where we can pit stories of how medics and science have save our lives, or that of a loved one. Credit wheee credit is due.

MrP

MrP

Dades

I think for the most part people do thank the medical people who cure/fix people.

They just don't tend to utter stuff like "He's all right now, thank God Doc..." in casual conversation.

mikhail

Dades wrote: »

I think for the most part people do thank the medical people who cure/fix people.

They just don't tend to utter stuff like "He's all right now, thank God Doc..." in casual conversation.

It's more than that though. For example, here's Reuters on those Chilean miners. I'll select the quotes from the miners, in the order they appear in the article:

Gomez, who has worked as miner for 50 years, was helped out of the escape capsule, and immediately dropped to his knees to pray. "I never lost faith that they would find us," he said.
Esteban Rojas also knelt and prayed on arrival. The 44-year-old had promised to wed his wife formally in church if he got out alive, to seal their civil marriage.

The first thing they did was pray. Not hug the rescue workers, or shake their hands, or even look for family.

"This is a miracle from God," said Alberto Avalos, the uncle of Florencio Avalos, a father of two who was the first to emerge shortly after midnight.

Now in fairness, Obama is quoted as crediting the "the determination of the rescue workers and the Chilean government but also the unity and resolve of the Chilean people who have inspired the world,"

The only quote relating to a miner thanking those who actually rescued him is from the single Bolivian miner, who said "I and the Bolivian people will never forget this great effort," at a press conference. (The rescue efforts apparently eased tensions between Chile and Bolivia.)

robindch

^^^ Reminds me of a documentary I saw a few years back about a Chilean (AFAIR) eye-surgeon who visited North Korea and carried out several hundred operations, saving the sight of many who'd been suffering from malnutrition.

At the end of the doc, they gathered everybody into a large room and the doctor received something like a bunch of flowers and a note of thanks. Then some guy stood up and said that they should really be thankful to the Dear Leader, the source of all goodness in the country and whose wise leadership had lead to the foreign doctor showing up in the first place.

The doctor's smile became somewhat strained.

Dades

The Chileans are an extreme example - but there is a tendency to gloss over thanks that have been given to emergency workers etc - and highlight the thanks to God. Whether this happens at 'press' level, or after, I don't know.

I guess what I'm saying is I suspect situations where the real lifesavers are ignored completely are few and far between.

Galvasean

Surprised this hasn't beenposted yet..

MrPudding

Dades wrote: »

I think for the most part people do thank the medical people who cure/fix people.

You may be right in this respect, but it irks me that, even when someone may thank the doctor, they still think god did it. And besides, I have seen plenty of occasions where, when given good news about a sick relative, outcome of legal action or any number of other things the first thing said is “thank god” and not “thank you.”

Dades wrote: »

They just don't tend to utter stuff like "He's all right now, thank God Doc..." in casual conversation.

Well I do. Perhaps I am just odd…?

MrP

Sam Vimes

Galvasean wrote: »

Surprised this hasn't beenposted yet..

Or this:

krudler

Its hilarious listening to people win Oscars and Grammys and thanking god for it,as if god had something to do with you winning an award voted for you by a bunch of your peers.

I have first hand experience watching someone with devout belief in god (mass twice a day, every day for most of their life) suffer terminal illness despite being a good christian, to the point where they started doubting if they did enough to make god happy. makes my blood boil even thinking about the notion.

Shenshen

virmilitaris wrote: »

A close friend of mine recently gave birth to twins and one of them has a serious defect. Most of the family are quite christian so they spent the last few weeks praying.

Something I can't understand is how christians integrate such a situation with their beliefs.
If the child was born healthy they would have thanked god.

Their god is apparently the creator of this child and if so didn't he make it sick?

If the child gets better they will then thank god yet if the child dies I assume they won't blame their god.

Can you imagine a doctor telling someone their child died because the doctor works in mysterious ways.

What is the usual response to this ? What would you say to the parents in my position?

I was talking to the mother today and she feels it has happened because she hasn't been a good enough christian.

It's terrible for any parent, but I have to admit I find it puzzling why they would pray for the child.
Would they assume that if they don't it will change anything? As in, god really wants the child to die but if they're being nice and pay him lots of attention he might change his mind?