Ban on Fox Hunting

Worztron

Hi.

I find the "sport" of fox hunting to be utterly deplorable. I'd like it to be completely banned.

Oscar Wilde: (referring to fox hunting) The unspeakable in pursuit of the uneatable.

TooManyDogs

I totally agree. If there ever is a situation where fox numbers need to be reduced then a humane cull should be organised, not this random business of dogs pulling foxes apart, other than that leave the foxes live their lives

Cú Giobach

If I saw a crowd of children getting a kick out of chasing and tormenting an animal I would get them to stop, unfortunately I would probably be arrested for trying to stop a crowd of (so called) adults from doing the same thing.
Utterly deplorable indeed.

Discodog

There will not be a ban here in the next 100 years. The poll here will be against hunting, a similar poll in the hunting forum would be pro hunting & a poll, say in After Hours, might represent the views of the majority.

bullylover

Yes

Im not saying fox hunting is right or wrong, but i do beleive if they ban it there will be a lot of abandoned/ destroyed hounds and horses and not to mention a lot of people will lose their jobs. Farmers will lose income (hunts pay to go on their land). Instead of banning maybe try to incourage drag hunting or something like it. But banning it will cause a whole lot of welfare problems for the horses and hounds.
Once again I do not condone fox hunting just thinking of the bigger picture.

Hellrazer

Ive moved this thread from the pre-modded forum to allow this discussion to continue.

Im giving one warning and one warning only on this thread.

If this descends into a an anti-hunting chaotic thread Im going to issue one week bans without warning.

Im also welcoming any and all of the hunting forum members to post in this thread aswell under the promise that I`ll watch this thread by reading every post thats posted and also that they can feel that they can debate this issue without being flamed.

newmug

Yes

bullylover wrote: »

Im not saying fox hunting is right or wrong, but i do beleive if they ban it there will be a lot of abandoned/ destroyed hounds and horses and not to mention a lot of people will lose their jobs. Farmers will lose income (hunts pay to go on their land). Instead of banning maybe try to incourage drag hunting or something like it. But banning it will cause a whole lot of welfare problems for the horses and hounds.
Once again I do not condone fox hunting just thinking of the bigger picture.

Not to mention the amount of lambs they kill.

Somebody mentioned that gangs of men hunting foxes is cruel, but its ok if there needs to be a population cull? I'd bet my bed that when you see more than 2 men going after a fox, thats whats going on. Culls are organised, and usually its a farmer who asks US to clear his land of foxes, not the other way round! Well thats how it is in my gun club anyway!

easyeason3

newmug wrote: »

Not to mention the amount of lambs they kill.

Somebody mentioned that gangs of men hunting foxes is cruel, but its ok if there needs to be a population cull? I'd bet my bed that when you see more than 2 men going after a fox, thats whats going on. Culls are organised, and usually its a farmer who asks US to clear his land of foxes, not the other way round! Well thats how it is in my gun club anyway!

I have no problem with a person or a group of people going out to shoot foxes. Anyone I know who does this usually has to become a stalker in order to actually get a shot at the fox & there is a hell of a lot of work & thought that goes into picking out a good spot. As you said foxes can be a major problem for farmers.

But I do have a major problem with hunts taking place when a fox is basically chased to exhaustion by huntsmen on horseback & a pack of hounds so it can be ripped to shreds if the hounds get their paws on it.

Whispered

Yes

easyeason3 wrote: »

I have no problem with a person or a group of people going out to shoot foxes. Anyone I know who does this usually has to become a stalker in order to actually get a shot at the fox & there is a hell of a lot of work & thought that goes into picking out a good spot. As you said foxes can be a major problem for farmers.

But I do have a major problem with hunts taking place when a fox is basically chased to exhaustion by huntsmen on horseback & a pack of hounds so it can be ripped to shreds if the hounds get their paws on it.

I have to say I feel the very same. While I understand the need to control populations I do not think it is necessary (or even logical) to do this with a hunt. I reckon 1 man, his dog and his gun would easily bring in more foxes per day than the whole hunt, with less distress on the animal. But population control is the reason given time and again for why hunts should not be banned.

In saying that I know a couple of people who go on hunts for a day out with their horses, and have no interest in the hunt itself. Although, I would be of the opinion that if you're involved, you're involved. I know a regular poster here is involved in drag hunting, but I don't know if that is an easily accessible sport? If there was this as an option as well as hunting live prey, I wonder how many people would still be involved in the hunts.

I don't think you're going to get a very even poll here op. Most people will likely vote against it. Maybe a less biased forum would give you a more realistic view?

bullylover

Yes

I agree newmug, and I agree with you easyeason.
But how often does the hunt actually catch the fox?
I followed my local hunt out to see what it was all about and I have to say I had a great laugh because the fox was running circles around them, literally! The hounds were away in the complete wrong direction and the fox seemed to see the joke because he was hanging around the horses!!
I think ( only my opinion) that most of the foxes caught are the ill or sickly ones.
If we left the foxes to breed and multiply we would surely see more lambs being killed, more road traffic accidents and higher rates of mange infections.
Once again not fore or against jst think its more then a pack of dogs shreding a fox.

easyeason3

Whispered wrote: »

I have to say I feel the very same. While I understand the need to control populations I do not think it is necessary (or even logical) to do this with a hunt. I reckon 1 man, his dog and his gun would easily bring in more foxes per day than the whole hunt, with less distress on the animal. But population control is the reason given time and again for why hunts should not be banned.


Population control is the weakest argument possible when trying to argue the pros of hunts.
Any farmer I know refuses point blank to have a hunt on their land. It unsettles their own animals too much. It can lead to cattle breaking out. And it can leave cattle jittery for days on end.
I also know farmers that will participate in hunts but refuse to have a hunt on their own land for the reasons I outlined above.

johngalway

Yes

I've no problem with the hunt once they respect the land owners and their land. Long may it continue.

Whispered

Yes

:o I chose the wrong option. :o

(that is what 50 hours with no sleep does to you!!)

EGAR

Bunch of idiots on horseback playing *keepers of the land*.

Do I need to mention what I voted for ?

It's a bloodsport, pure and simple.

Population control, my German behind.

easyeason3

EGAR wrote: »

Bunch of idiots on horseback playing *keepers of the land*.

Do I need to mention what I voted for ?

It's a bloodsport, pure and simple.

Population control, my German behind.

But how do you feel about foxes being shot without the hounds & chasing?
Do you think they should just be left alone completely or that some control is needed?

EGAR

I have no problem with hunting, population control is necessary as natural predators are extinct. But then clean shot and over with, not chasing them and then ripping them apart.

Bog Bunny

Generally, two popular reasons are given for fox hunting

(a) they interfere wiht human interest (threat to farm animals
(b) it's a tradition

To (a)
It should by now be common knowledge that any population of wild animals is self-regulating when not interfered with, neither in a positive (overfeeding) or negative way (encroaching on their habitat, eradication attempts).

Foxes are indigenous, they are part of our environment.
Foxes are territorial and a given area only gives room for x amount of foxes. A fox is also a creature of habit; they know where they can find their usual wild prey, they tend to seak out those places before going through the trouble of looking for new.

As in all wild populations, the numbers can go up and down.
The number can temporarily rise in times of plenty, but as soon as overpopulation sets in, causing food shortages, the excess number = the weakest, younger, inexperienced animals, are driven off the territory to look for food.

They try to find a territory with ample food supply and few foxes.
If they enter an area which has been artifically depopulated by hunting, they settle. No one around anymore to drive them off and on.
Now these expelled foxes have neither the experience nor the skills at hunting their wild prey, so if they come across let's say, a yard full of chicken, they go for the chicken, of course. A regular 'Fox's Take-Away'. If successful, they choose this as their main prey, why look for rats and mice and frogs and so on when these chickens are so easy to be got?
If they are prevented from killing the chicken by secure fencing, dogs or driven away by other means, they will avoid going near them. They will not find it so easy to get their meal every day and they will turn to finding it where it is safer, away from human and canine habitation. They begin to co-exist with the humans and their canines, avoiding danger when they can. They also drive off other foxes that are in search of a territory of their own. They become the wise old foxes that bother no one and at the same time keep the local population of rats etc in check.

Artifically reducing numbers will only increase conception rate of the survivors and next season there are even more foxes. That's called survival of the species.

Flushing out foxes everywhere in a given area, hunting and eliminating them by any means whatsoever will create a vaccum that nees to be filled, it's simply nature's law. It merely makes room for the rogue foxes who don't know the territory and who will naturally seek out the easy options first (see above).

So in a way, the trouble foxes cause or can cause are man-made.

I assume that the hunting community's declared aim is not to eradicate ALL foxes, or is it? If this aim were achieved, who will hunt the prey the foxes hunted? Will we get an even bigger invasion of rats?

And before anybody accuses me of anything, I am a farmer myself, I have fox-proofed my poultry runs, I house my ewes at lambing time or deter the foxes with dogs (Jack Russells are excellent for this, my guy patrols the fields) and should I lose the odd chicken or gosling or even lamb (never happened so far) I consider it a natural loss, a tribute to nature. In spring time I take great delight observing a vixen with her cubs, I occasionally catch a glimps of the big old fox who lives on my land, and hope he is wise and smart enough to avoid the shooters all around the boundaries. So far he has. We have an agreement and I think we will stick to it for a while.

As to point (b) tradition.
Yes, it is a tradition. But it was brought in by the Anglo-Irish, a 'sport' imported by the oppressors of old, as entertainment for the ruling elite. It never seizes to amaze me how something so utterly Un-irish has become an Irish country sport when we try to distinguish ourselves from our neighbours in so many other ways.

Apologies if this got so long, perhaps I owe it to 'my' fox.

Oscar Wilde said it best.

Thank you for reading.

bullylover

Yes

Ireland is renowned for producing the bravest horse's. Irish hunt horse's are sold all around the world. Our horse's are known as brave because they are hunted across all terrain, the cross walls, ditches, banks.
Look at english horse sites, Irish Hunt horses are highly sought after, and sold for alot more then the seller could get here.
Our racing industry, our jockeys are known as the bravest and have the best seats, balance and natural abilities. Most jockeys hunt. When a thoroughbred is not racing it is sometimes brought hunting to help braven it up.
We need to find a happy medium so that our (struggling) horse industry can continue to produce our hardy, brave horses. Keep the hunt people in a job, and keep the hounds and horses from being slaughtered/ abandoned.
Hunting is also a huge tourist attracter. Alot of holiday makers from abroad do hire horses for hunting, I know a few who come from America to hunt and it is the highlight of their year.
It effects so much. Theres just so much to think about, not jst a fox.
I would love to have a answer that would keep both groups happy but i dont:( Its a super sticky subject:/

EGAR

The operative word is DRAG HUNT.

And Ireland as a nation of horse lovers, cough cough...

sotisme

Yes

:eek:aahh i misread the question and accidently pressed no, instead of yes!:mad:Can I undo this?!?! I cant find any way............:(

bullylover

Yes

We obv have a huge horse problem now from some stupid people who bred for fun and hadnt a clue, I have taken in 3 horses, one who has had a foal, and one with one on the way. I have tried to do my best. I know the horses i have rescued are in nice warm beds with full bellies and will do for forever and a day.
But an outright ban on hunting will leave more horses to starve in fields.
We have to think about it.
I think drag hunting or fun running/charity run is the way forward as egar as stated. But how do you tell that to the local fox hunt?
What happens to the hounds? Who pays the whipper in? Do the hunt just lay a scent and use the hounds as normal?
Not being smart, i really dont know:/ How does it all work?

EGAR

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drag_hunting

Bog Bunny

Yes, that's the operative word indeed!

I have no objection re drag hunts on those huge estates where they can only bother the owner's animals.
A drag would add the benefit that the route the hounds take would be clear, no deviating from it.

Interesting statistic reported somewhere, may be a satyr? (cannot remember the source)
For every fox that gets killed 1.5 riders end up either dead or in hospital or in a wheelchair. Not a safe sport then, eh?

bullylover

Yes

Thanks egar:)
It does seem like the perfect substatue.
Makes perfect sence, i was jst worried about the horses and dogs.
But I think that could keep everyone happy.
Maybe more hunts should start drag hunts, would be great to see different levels, like a kids/ novice/ experienced, that would obv attract new bloody (no pun intended) to the hunt and increase their revenue.
Egar u ever think of running in the election?:P

bullylover

Yes

"For every fox that gets killed 1.5 riders end up either dead or in hospital or in a wheelchair. Not a safe sport then, eh?"

Working with horses in general is dangerous. You can end up in a wheelchair just going into the stable with one!
Its harder to get insurance as a horse rider then it is for a F1 driver:/

EGAR

Does one have to be Irish to run for an election .

bullylover

Yes

meh i dont see why ya wud have to be.
considering the irish that are running it are bloody useless.
I think you'd be grand once you, drink plenty of tea, eat tayto and just give it a lash:)
Might as well, ya could get a laugh:)

Knine

EGAR wrote: »

Does one have to be Irish to run for an election .

Well eh judging by some of the faces Ive seen on the posters, no.... but I could be mistaken

EGAR

As long as I don't have to eat Bacon and Cabbage *choke*.

I think it is important for people to realize that one is not necessarily a tree-hugger if one is opposed to bloodsports.

clln

Taking into account the mod warning,without it i would have used stonger language! this is not a sport it is cruelty pure and simple.
i have always been an urban dweller though. some people reared in rural area's are sure to wonder what the problem with anti fox hunting posters is.that to an extent is understandable to me.

i think the issue runs much deeper though.sometime in the future i think humanity will look back on us for killing other creatures for not just food but for recreation as barbarians once we knew other ways to eat protein.

i am straying off topic into talking about turning vegetarian now so i will shush.

i do not mean this as an attack on people who believe in foxhunting,just an appeal to them to ask themselves, why terrorise any living creature in the name of sport?
for food is another days thread.
cheers

Manach

Yes

Foxes are cruel vermin. Tough.

Bog Bunny

clln wrote: »

Taking into account the mod warning,without it i would have used stonger language! this is not a sport it is cruelty pure and simple.
i have always been an urban dweller though. some people reared in rural area's are sure to wonder what the problem with anti fox hunting posters is.that to an extent is understandable to me.

i think the issue runs much deeper though.sometime in the future i think humanity will look back on us for killing other creatures for not just food but for recreation as barbarians once we knew other ways to eat protein.

i am straying off topic into talking about turning vegetarian now so i will shush.

i do not mean this as an attack on people who believe in foxhunting,just an appeal to them to ask themselves, why terrorise any living creature in the name of sport?
for food is another days thread.
cheers

I think in his specific issue the sides are so entrenched that no matter what one or the other side produces in line of arguments, you are either preaching to the converted or talking to the wall.

The question what happens to the horses and the hounds if fox hunting were to be outlawed is a valid one. But there are alternative 'occupations' for these animals, drag hunting and cross country competitions; they'd enjoy it just the same.
Bull baiting was a sport once too, but we still have the bull breeds. Wolf hunting was a sport once too, the wolfhound is still a breed and is quite popular.

It requires an open mind to take new points of view on board, to be able to listen and learn. Alas, it seems there are far more open stable doors than open minds.

clln

Bog Bunny wrote: »

I think in his specific issue the sides are so entrenched that no matter what one or the other side produces in line of arguments, you are either preaching to the converted or talking to the wall.

Well said! interesting that the poll although not many voted is about 50/50 on this.again i think to some extent it is an urban/rural divide.
one persons vermin is another persons cuddly creature.

Bog Bunny

Manach wrote: »

Foxes are cruel vermin. Tough.

Wouldn't cruelty require the will to cause deliberate pain and suffering?

A fox hunts and kills because he is hungry. While we might consider the way he kills his prey cruel he simply acts on instinct.

He is considered vermin because he hunts and kills game which humans believe is exclusively theirs and only theirs to kill.

Do we still go after game because we need to feed ourselves?

doctor evil

Yes

EGAR wrote: »

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drag_hunting

EGAR, foxhunting and drag hunting are two different things that require different hounds and horses that tend to have more tb in them. It is not unusual for a rider to change to a second horse halfway through as it is so full with not as much breaks as you would find in foxhunting. Not all riders like the faster pace. There is also the issue of access to land, many won't give it for dh as they get no benefit what so ever. Large estates found in other countries don't really exist in Ireland so the hunt often has lots of landoweners to ask/engage with. The above link contains reference to LACS so it is certainly biased.

There is not always a clean shot with a bullet.

Wouldn't it be more apt for the poll to be named 'Ban on hunting with dogs'

doctor evil

Yes

bullylover wrote: »

Its harder to get insurance as a horse rider then it is for a F1 driver:/

I have no problem getting insurance as a horse rider, I have gold membership with the BHS. There are Irish companies that are starting to offer it.

doctor evil

Yes

bullylover wrote: »

I think drag hunting or fun running/charity run is the way forward as egar as stated. But how do you tell that to the local fox hunt?
What happens to the hounds? Who pays the whipper in? Do the hunt just lay a scent and use the hounds as normal?
Not being smart, i really dont know:/ How does it all work?

Hunts already do a lot of fund raising for charities, they also have sponsored rides/charity runs. Hunts also organise Hunter Trials during the summer.

http://www.countygalwayhunt.com/introduction.html

Subs/subscriptions pay for the running of the hunt and any wages.

Wrong link up above, I'll leave it as one poster has refernced it.

The link below is the onen I meant as an example of a hunt doing charity work

http://www.donedeal.ie/for-sale/horses/1875812

doctor evil

Yes

EGAR wrote: »

I think it is important for people to realize that one is not necessarily a tree-hugger if one is opposed to bloodsports.

A lot of people call them fieldsports, calling it bloodsports kind of has a treehugger leaning to it. Do you think all fieldsports are bloodsports?

homerhop

Yes

Having grown up in a time when the Galway Blazers would meet and we would be given the day off school to follow the hunt I guess it is something that I grew up with. I often stood on a St Stephens day watching the hounds cross the land followed by the riders only to see a fox appear and run back through the horses.
As part of a gun club the woodlands we have are are often used by the local pack to run, a pack of hounds make a hell of a racket even before they start to hunt and any fox hearing that will have moved to ground well in advance of the pack ever catching up with them.

Bog Bunny

doctor evil wrote: »

Hunts already do a lot of fund raising for charities, they also have sponsored rides/charity runs. Hunts also organise Hunter Trials during the summer.

http://www.countygalwayhunt.com/introduction.html

Subs/subscriptions pay for the running of the hunt and any wages.

When you talk of Hunts, does this always involve the pack of hounds going after the fox? And the sponsored rides and charity runs - are they the same as these 'hunts'?

Isn't it a bit of a conflict to be in hunting/killing mode and charitable at the same time?
Can you tell that I'm not a horse person although I adore horses and would have liked to go into dressage and / or volting....

TooManyDogs

doctor evil wrote: »

EGAR, foxhunting and drag hunting are two different things that require different hounds and horses that tend to have more tb in them.

When they were banning fox hunting in the UK this was one of their arguments against it - that drag hunting would never work with the same hounds but most were successfully retrained and now routinely drag hunt.

jap gt

Yes

Bog Bunny wrote: »

Wouldn't cruelty require the will to cause deliberate pain and suffering?

A fox hunts and kills because he is hungry. While we might consider the way he kills his prey cruel he simply acts on instinct.

He is considered vermin because he hunts and kills game which humans believe is exclusively theirs and only theirs to kill.

Do we still go after game because we need to feed ourselves?

He isnt vermin just for killing game, what about the sheep farmers/poultry farmers, not many people here would have pity on a fox if they saw the damage they do, all the talk of killing a fox being for fun, i have never killed any animal for fun.. i hunt fox at least once a week, all for farmers that want them off the land to protect stock, I love the challenge of trying to get the fox, i take no pleasure in shooting it but it has to be done.

doctor evil

Yes

TooManyDogs wrote: »

When they were banning fox hunting in the UK this was one of their arguments against it - that drag hunting would never work with the same hounds but most were successfully retrained and now routinely drag hunt.

I think you mean bloodhounds hunting the clean boot? Which is when the hunt follow a runner who is ahead of the pack. The runner determines the course. This is more of an inbetween between fh and dh. Drag hunting is fast and furious, not for the nervous and not suitable for all horses. DH is prelaid with a strong scent that the hounds can follow more easily than the clean boot.

Northern Ireland flat out rejected the ban on hunting with dogs in Dec 2010, it was the exact same bill that governs England/Wales. This proves what a daft legislation it is, most refer to it as a ban on foxhunting when it is a ban on hunting with dogs/hunting act 2004. Up to two dogs can still be used for hunting ie stalking and flushing.

doctor evil

Yes

Bog Bunny wrote: »

When you talk of Hunts, does this always involve the pack of hounds going after the fox? And the sponsored rides and charity runs - are they the same as these 'hunts'?

Isn't it a bit of a conflict to be in hunting/killing mode and charitable at the same time?
Can you tell that I'm not a horse person although I adore horses and would have liked to go into dressage and / or volting....

Never too late to give horse riding a go Bog Bunny:).

The sponsored rides/charity runs are not the same as a days hunting, with these events you have access to ride on land that you would not normally be allowed on with the option of some jumps. In Ireland there are no bridleways. To ride in forestry you must have a permit, some beaches are 100% off limits to riders and others have time constraints on them based on season.

Perhaps the link below would help on the different types of hunts?

http://www.hai.ie/

Discodog

Could the OP clarify their Poll & some here are taking it as traditional hunting with Hounds & others as including shooting.

Discodog

Hellrazer wrote: »

If this descends into a an anti-hunting chaotic thread Im going to issue one week bans without warning.

I trust that, for the sake of balance & fairness, you will issue bans if this descends into pro-hunting chaos.

Hellrazer

Discodog wrote: »

I trust that, for the sake of balance & fairness, you will issue bans if this descends into pro-hunting chaos.

Jesus do you ever stop picking at things.

And the answer to the question is yes I will.

In saying that Im quite surprised how well this thread is going.

Worztron

Discodog wrote: »

Could the OP clarify their Poll & some here are taking it as traditional hunting with Hounds & others as including shooting.

I refer to all forms of fox hunting.

TooManyDogs

doctor evil wrote: »

I think you mean bloodhounds hunting the clean boot? Which is when the hunt follow a runner who is ahead of the pack. The runner determines the course. This is more of an inbetween between fh and dh. Drag hunting is fast and furious, not for the nervous and not suitable for all horses. DH is prelaid with a strong scent that the hounds can follow more easily than the clean boot.

No the documentary I watched was definitely about converting hounds from fox hunting to drag hunting, the man in charge of the hounds (sorry I can't remember the proper name) was skeptical that the hounds could be retrained and figured they'd all have to be pts. But he created a concoction of strong smelling stuff, soaked bundle of cloth in it and then it was dragged around the fields they usually hunted through. He had to admit that it could be a good alternative and the hounds weren't pts. The documentary was about the number of animals put in jeopardy as a result of the fox hunting ban and it went through retraining hounds for pet homes, and then this segment on retraining the hounds for drag hunting

planetX

Unfortunately I can't see a ban coming in a country which still allows hare coursing. At least the foxes are on their own turf - why are these 'people' allowed to steal hares from all over the country and cart them off to torture for their own pleasure.
I despise the hunts.... may they fall from their horses.

homerhop

Yes

EGAR wrote: »

I think it is important for people to realize that one is not necessarily a tree-hugger if one is opposed to bloodsports.

It is also important than one is not necessarily some of the colourful terms that hunters have been called in this forum over the years and yet still be an animal lover