Why the 31st Dáil needs Fianna Fáil

Permabear

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oppenheimer1

A strong opposition is vital in a democracy, whomever they may be.

K_user

Permabear wrote: »

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I've said it time and time again. A vote for the likes of SF is a vote for the silly hat party.

Ireland needs professionals in Government. Pick someone from FF, FG, Labour, or at least an independent. But keep the muppets out.

Snakeblood

But Fianna Fail have proven themselves imbeciles economically. Their halfwit minister for Finance before is the shadow minister for finance in waiting. Micheal Martin had the brief for health and the best he could come up with was the HSE. It's hardly a convincing argument. They've proven themselves the worst government in Irish history, I'd rather give someone I'm not positive is a halfwit the position of opposition.

Killer Pigeon

Or FG will enter government with a few independents and Labour will dominate the opposition. For the first time we'll have a proper left-right wing divide. This is one likely outcome. In such a scenario I wouldn't mind FF being annihilated.

K_user

Snakeblood wrote: »

But Fianna Fail have proven themselves imbeciles economically. Their halfwit minister for Finance before is the shadow minister for finance in waiting. Micheal Martin had the brief for health and the best he could come up with was the HSE. It's hardly a convincing argument. They've proven themselves the worst government in Irish history, I'd rather give someone I'm not positive is a halfwit the position of opposition.

Interestingly MM is the one trying to keep the Health Board free and accessible. While the unions are resisting and keeping the bureaucracy in full swing. Meanwhile the Labour candidate is trying to introduce a more private insurance scheme.

What an interesting world we live in!

Javan

I'll buy some of that argument Permabear. A strong opposition is undoubtedly very important. A party that can propose serious amendments to legislation and argue intelligently for the good of the country is necessary.

However there are two problems I see:
1: Is Fianna Fail a party that will argue intelligently for the good of the country? Their track record suggests they will argue very effectively for their own special interest groups, but not necessarily for the good of the country.
2: I think this is likely to be a government with a solid majority in the Dail. The power of the opposition will be limited as a result unless there is some strong procedural and structural change in the Oireachtas. I know we have exchanged views on that in another thread and I will not re-hash them here.

Let me ask a question: Do you think the strong, effective opposition can be provided by the independents forming a technical group in the Dail? I have high hopes for some individuals, such as David Norris and Shane Ross. Unfortunately neither of them is running in my constituency so I cannot vote for them directly.

UDAWINNER

K_user wrote: »

I've said it time and time again. A vote for the likes of SF is a vote for the silly hat party.
Ireland needs professionals in Government. Pick someone from FF, FG, Labour, or at least an independent. But keep the muppets out.

Just because u don't support SF, don't ridicule those who do and besides the only muppets are Fianna Fail.

bhovaspack

Perhaps a strong Fine Gael showing with Labour in opposition would be preferable?

K_user

UDAWINNER wrote: »

Just because u don't support SF, don't ridicule those who do and besides the only muppets are Fianna Fail.

I don't mock their supporters, just their policies as a party.

If you have taken offence, please accept my apologies.

Sir Oxman

This country does not need Fianna Fail - they do not have an ideology, their sole purpose is the attainment and retention of power for powers sake, for the patronage that gives which in turn embeds them further into Irish society.

Their record cannot be airbrushed from history with some fuzzy notion that the country needs them of all people, to keep the next government to account.
Whatever trust they had from the foolish people that voted for them especially over the past two elections, is all but gone.
The OP needn't fear wipeout in numbers for Fianna Fail - I believe they will still return between 20-25 seats such is their 'core' support in this country but the belief that they hold the key to a strong, ideological opposition is laughable.

The best outcome for this country's future politics is a FG majority government with a large left wing opposition made up of Social Democrats and Socialists who will be able to function as a proper opposition.

Fianna Fail as an organisation, in the best interests of Ireland, should wither and die after another term of no return to power.

I believe a new party, not solely based on populism may arise out of the void they leave.

That would be a great outcome, politically, for this country.

*I am not a FG/Lab/SF/FF/Green/SP/ULA supporter or member

nesf

bhovaspack wrote: »

Perhaps a strong Fine Gael showing with Labour in opposition would be preferable?

It would be but FG need another 5% at least and Enda isn't the man to deliver that. Now if Bruton or Noonan headed them I'd get my hopes up.

UDAWINNER

bhovaspack wrote: »

Perhaps a strong Fine Gael showing with Labour in opposition would be preferable?

Never going to happen with Enda too afraid to go to a debate, will have put a good few people off voting FG, thats the worry as they might vote FF.

mewso

I completely disagree. In the long term the demise of FF could only be good for this country and the future of politics here with as has been said a preferable left-right top 2 parties. Keeping this shower of corrupt charlatans around helps nobody except those who want to flip flop between FF and FG ad infinitum going into the future.

Permabear

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K-9

nesf wrote: »

It would be but FG need another 5% at least and Enda isn't the man to deliver that. Now if Bruton or Noonan headed them I'd get my hopes up.

Completely agreed, Bruton preferrably.

FG had a chance to get an over all majority and they blew it when they kept Kenny. Yes, it shouldn't be about personalities etc. etc., but it is important.

FF nearly repeated the same mistake and are damn lucky Cowen messed up the Minister for a month portfolios.

Completely agree with Permabear and have made the exact same points several times on the politics board and AH. I thought FG would get close to 70 seats, I'd be surprised they'll get 60 now. Labour should get a minimum of 40 though SF, the ULA and left Independents could take seats from them in Dublin.

FF will not enter coalition with FG, would be political suicide for them and they need to rebuild and for me, they've the right man to do it. Bad and all as the opposition are now, the next one will be very left centred.

heyjude

K_user wrote: »

Interestingly MM is the one trying to keep the Health Board free and accessible.

MM abolished the health boards and replaced them with the HSE, so I assume you mean that he favours healthcare that is free and accessible, yet while he was in government we have seen the introduction of a A&E charge of €100 per visit and there is an in-patient statutory fee of €75 per day for those admitted to a public hospital. So whatever he is trying to keep, it isn't free healthcare unless you have a medical card. The cost of accessing healthcare has got progressively more expensive, while he was in government.

.same.

gambiaman wrote: »

This country does not need Fianna Fail - they do not have an ideology, their sole purpose is the attainment and retention of power for powers sake, for the patronage that gives which in turn embeds them further into Irish society.

Their record cannot be airbrushed from history with some fuzzy notion that the country needs them of all people, to keep the next government to account.
Whatever trust they had from the foolish people that voted for them especially over the past two elections, is all but gone.
The OP needn't fear wipeout in numbers for Fianna Fail - I believe they will still return between 20-25 seats such is their 'core' support in this country but the belief that they hold the key to a strong, ideological opposition is laughable.

The best outcome for this country's future politics is a FG majority government with a large left wing opposition made up of Social Democrats and Socialists who will be able to function as a proper opposition.

Fianna Fail as an organisation, in the best interests of Ireland, should wither and die after another term of no return to power.

I believe a new party, not solely based on populism may arise out of the void they leave.

That would be a great outcome, politically, for this country.

*I am not a FG/Lab/SF/FF/Green/SP/ULA supporter or member

He Ha cried Bob the Donkey.


Even if the next government lasts the full term, in about 3 years time talk of the next general election will be afoot.In this election I would be confident that FF will gain an overall majority and rule the country once again, Yaahooo.
Not only this but the very people who are on here talking complete ****e night in night out about FF annihilition, will be the very people voting for FF next time round.
Think about it, unless Enda has 15billion in his arse pocket in six months time either FG or FG/Lab will be the worst in the world and what ya wonna do then!

FF FOREVER BABY

Permabear

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Javan

Permabear wrote: »

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Unfortunately I have to agree.
It is very likely that FF will be the largest opposition party, and in opposition they will take a line of 'the government is wrong' on everything regardless of the merits of government proposals. Some of their amendments will be 'good' in the sense of actually helping the country but it will be very difficult to sort those from all the other shouting, opposition for the sake of opposition, and protection of the corporate donors.

So which is better: a 'business as usual' opposition that is well organised, or a chaotic 'bag of cats' independent technical group?

bamboozle

when i consider the fact this state is on the brink of soverign bankruptcy, when i consider there are thousands of people in negative equity on their mortgages, when i consider the thousands of highly educated and qualified people & their families who have had to emigrate in search of work, when i consider the debt this state is bound to for the next generation, when i consider the ministerial pay-offs, the fact that Bertie Ahern will leave Dail Eireann having never provided a tax clearance certificate the numerous pay rises FF gave themselves in power since '97, when i consider the fact Bertie & FF's property developer mates are still living in their fancy houses and living their extravagant lifestyles i just cannot see any justification for FF to ever have a role in the Irish political system ever again and i pity anyone who would consider voting for them after the state they have left the people of this country.

K_user

Permabear wrote: »

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But thats not what people want to hear, its easier to blame the government.

The biggest factor that prevents change, and cost saving, in the Health Board are the Unions.

K-9

K_user wrote: »

But thats not what people want to hear, its easier to blame the government.

The biggest factor that prevents change, and cost saving, in the Health Board are the Unions.

My understanding is Bertie and the Unions agreed the no redundancies part, probably to top benchmarking off.

Snakeblood

Permabear wrote: »

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I'm convinced though, that Lenihan was appalling. I think Doherty and the others will be appalling also. I don't know that though. I do know it about Lenihan. I don't accept better the devil you know as an argument.

I can hold Micheal Martin responsible for bowing to the unions, as part of a Fianna Fail policy of appeasement for the unions in order to ensure their reelection. If he was the strong leader at the time he might have done something about it at the time. If he was weak then why won't he be weak now?

K_user

K-9 wrote: »

My understanding is Bertie and the Unions agreed the no redundancies part, probably to top benchmarking off.

FF had no choice to be agree to no forced redundancies, else the health board would have gone on instant strike. Because that is how the unions work.

And what would have happened then?

The media would have started the story that FF were tying to cut front line staff. FG and Labour would have had a field day. And who would have argued with them.

The public would be looking at the empty emergency rooms and demanding to know what was being done about it.

The government would have to had backed down and then the unions would have had them over the barrel.

greendom

Incredible complacency by FF has helped drive the country downwards into its current pitiful state. They have to learn that they are meant to serve the people and not the other way round

If they perform reasonably this time round then no lessons will have been learned and they will think they were being punished unfairly for the poor performance of the World economy.

They will come back in time but I sincerely hope they are completely obliterated this time round.

K-9

Snakeblood wrote: »

I'm convinced though, that Lenihan was appalling. I think Doherty and the others will be appalling also. I don't know that though. I do know it about Lenihan. I don't accept better the devil you know as an argument.

I can hold Micheal Martin responsible for bowing to the unions, as part of a Fianna Fail policy of appeasement for the unions in order to ensure their reelection. If he was the strong leader at the time he might have done something about it at the time. If he was weak then why won't he be weak now?

Yes, there is collective responsibility, but we all know, what Bertie and McCreevey said in those days, went. There was an election to be won and even that trumped a supposed "right wing" McCreevey and Harney led Government.

I'd say Martin was a competent Minister, not spectacular. At Education he targeted areas that had been totally under funded and ignored for decades, disadvantaged children, made it a priority of his department. Of course that was easy to do during the bubble years but like every Minister, he had to choose where to put the money, at a detriment to other areas.

At Enterprise & Employment, again competent. Prioritised R&D.

I'd say his weakness seems to be a fondness of avoiding controversial subjects, the nursing charges one in Health eg.

His big weakness is that he hasn't had experience of any of the big Financial departments.

K_user

greendom wrote: »

Incredible complacency by FF has helped drive the country downwards into its current pitiful state. They have to learn that they are meant to serve the people and not the other way round

Did you know that the Irish independent ran a supplement 10 years ago - it was the year before my son was born - comparing house prices in Ireland to those in other countries. We did not fair well. At that point the average semi-d in any town in Ireland was more expensive than a small castle in Scotland.

The Celtic tiger was born. People were taking out huge mortgages and buying big cars. They were going holidays and buying everything on Credit. Its commonly called greed.

The problem was that most other countries across Europe, across the world, had experienced booms and busts before. But this was our first.

There are over 4 million people in this country. And how many sitting MP's are there? The complacency is shared out equally, its just easier to blame the few.

*Thats not letting them off the hook - its just a more balanced view point...

K_user

K-9 wrote: »

Yes, there is collective responsibility, but we all know, what Bertie and McCreevey said in those days, went. There was an election to be won and even that trumped a supposed "right wing" McCreevey and Harney led Government.

I'd say Martin was a competent Minister, not spectacular. At Education he targeted areas that had been totally under funded and ignored for decades, disadvantaged children, made it a priority of his department. Of course that was easy to do during the bubble years but like every Minister, he had to choose where to put the money, at a detriment to other areas.

At Enterprise & Employment, again competent. Prioritised R&D.

I'd say his weakness seems to be a fondness of avoiding controversial subjects, the nursing charges one in Health eg.

His big weakness is that he hasn't had experience of any of the big Financial departments.

I would completely agree with this.

When I heard that they had replaced Cowen with MM I was shocked. I just didn't see him as a potential leader. He always seemed too much like a choir boy.

Chardee MacDennis

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

A strong opposition is vital in a democracy, whomever they may be.

explains the predicament we're in today!!

greendom

K_user wrote: »

Did you know that the Irish independent ran a supplement 10 years ago - it was the year before my son was born - comparing house prices in Ireland to those in other countries. We did not fair well. At that point the average semi-d in any town in Ireland was more expensive than a small castle in Scotland.

The Celtic tiger was born. People were taking out huge mortgages and buying big cars. They were going holidays and buying everything on Credit. Its commonly called greed.

The problem was that most other countries across Europe, across the world, had experienced booms and busts before. But this was our first.

There are over 4 million people in this country. And how many sitting MP's are there? The complacency is shared out equally, its just easier to blame the few.

*Thats not letting them off the hook - its just a more balanced view point...

Difference is that FF were in charge and were in a position to temper the greed and manage the economy, control the excesses of the banking system; instead of lining developers pockets money could have been saved to help ride out any future down turns. Bottom line is they were in charge and have to take the blame. They need to be sent to the wilderness so they can hopefully come back a better party.

The whole country is suffering for what went on in the last 10 years. Surely FF have to take their fair share of the suffering.

K_user

greendom wrote: »

Difference is that FF were in charge and were in a position to temper the greed and manage the economy, control the excesses of the banking system; instead of lining developers pockets money could have been saved to help ride out any future down turns. Bottom line is they were in charge and have to take the blame. They need to be sent to the wilderness so they can hopefully come back a better party.

The whole country is suffering for what went on in the last 10 years. Surely FF have to take their fair share of the suffering.

I would agree with you. FF have to take their share of the blame, it was their job to keep us on the right track.

But the reality is that there is alot of blame to go around.

K-9

greendom wrote: »

Difference is that FF were in charge and were in a position to temper the greed and manage the economy, control the excesses of the banking system; instead of lining developers pockets money could have been saved to help ride out any future down turns. Bottom line is they were in charge and have to take the blame. They need to be sent to the wilderness so they can hopefully come back a better party.

The whole country is suffering for what went on in the last 10 years. Surely FF have to take their fair share of the suffering.

I doubt anybody would disagree with this.

Still, Gerry Adams as leader of the opposition?

jacool

We do not need Fianna Fáil, but if you look around you, they are everywhere.
Here in Cork they are saying that soon there will finally be another Cork Taoiseach! The problem that won't go away is that somewhere, deep in our DNA, we have a liking for this "mé féin" philosophy. The famous photograph of CJH, surrounded by his ne'er do wells, is, sadly a reflection on who we are.
We elect a councillor in Galway who is named "Stroke" Fahy, and he doesn't have a medical condition!
There will always be this element who subscribe to nepotism, brown envelopes and the like, and they will go off and vote for the party who trade in the same belief system. CJH, Albert and Bertie - all have had their dodgy dealings. Michael Lowry wasn't tolerated in FG when his were exposed.
FF will not be fading away. Its just who we are, and its disappointing, and embarrassing too.

Liam Byrne

Micheal Martin was baiting Gilmore last night saying "You won't reverse our cuts" last night.

Gilmore didn't fall for it, but he was poor in not replying "and why are those cuts required, Micheal ?"

If that's the standard of Martin's "opposition", then it's debatable whether he'd be any use in opposition.

Not to mention the fact that he's already undermined himself by having Lenihan stay on in Finance and reinstating O'Dea.

the groutch

we need FF like a bullet in the head

it will be no loss if they are obliterated and disappear forever

Dyr

Permabear wrote: »

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"if the rule you followed brought you to this, of what use was the rule?"

It wasn't just fianna fail who bankrupted this country, it was the banks, the accountancy firms, the developers and all the other people-who-know-best that are supposed to be "fundamentally sound" on economic matters. The old boys club that FF represent are demonstrably economic nutters and yet you propose that they will protect us from the economic nuttiness of the hard left?

It's insane to do the same thing over and over and expect different results yet that seems to be what you're proposing. This country need fundamental change, not reform but change. A seismic shift in the irish political landscape might just bring that change about.

K-9

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Micheal Martin was baiting Gilmore last night saying "You won't reverse our cuts" last night.

Gilmore didn't fall for it, but he was poor in not replying "and why are those cuts required, Micheal ?"

If that's the standard of Martin's "opposition", then it's debatable whether he'd be any use in opposition.

Not to mention the fact that he's already undermined himself by having Lenihan stay on in Finance and reinstating O'Dea.

Problem was, Gilmore had already made that point. Martin came back with a fair point and Gilmore couldn't answer.

LeixlipRed

The only thing I take from the OP is a terrible fear of the ULA. It warms my heart! The ULA and SF will be the opposition in the next Dail. Martin and FF have no credibility, they'd be criticising themselves sure as FG and Labour are going to continue down the same path.

Bottle_of_Smoke

The opposition exists to critique government policy, hold government accountable for its decisions, and illustrate ways in which things could be done better.

In theory. Though it doesn't appear it has ever worked that way in Ireland. You usually find they critique policy without providing any alternative. When illustrating ways things could be done better they deliberately do it in an antagonistic way. Its nearly always a kind of ''this idea is terrible, the government have to go'' attitude

Ideally I'd like to see a FG + Greens and Independents coalition. Though I honestly think a FG minority govt with support from FF would be better than a FF/Lab coalition.

stonehallworker

It is not Just Fianna Fail friends that boomed under the Celtic Tiger. Eamon Gilmores Wife made a killing twice on Land sold to a school in Galway (which as a private citizen she is entitled to do) Just pointing out lots of people benitfited from the property boom

Fianna Fail handeled the Banking Crisis very badly there is no denying that BUT During every budget over the last 10 years Fine Gael and Labour attacked them for not spending more.

When you read these parties policies note they won't touch INCOME TAX but they don't tell you what they are going to tax to pay for a Fully Restructed Health Systems (that the unions won't let happen anyway)

K_user

stonehallworker wrote: »

It is not Just Fianna Fail friends that boomed under the Celtic Tiger. Eamon Gilmores Wife made a killing twice on Land sold to a school in Galway (which as a private citizen she is entitled to do) Just pointing out lots of people benitfited from the property boom

Fianna Fail handeled the Banking Crisis very badly there is no denying that BUT During every budget over the last 10 years Fine Gael and Labour attacked them for not spending more.

When you read these parties policies note they won't touch INCOME TAX but they don't tell you what they are going to tax to pay for a Fully Restructed Health Systems (that the unions won't let happen anyway)

Very good points.

But people don't want to hear that. They are looking for blame.

Which is why Gilmore not answering MM's question on the redoing the budget was interesting. The man just didn't have an answer.

Mad Benny

Permabear wrote: »

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That comment is outrageous Permabear. Fianna Fail have been the architects of this crisis and therefore should not be part of the solution. I will qualify that by saying that they displayed gross incompetence with the state guarantee and a remarkable lack of intelligence with "we have turned a corner" type remarks.

Fianna Fail should not exist as a party anymore with the baggage that they are carrying. Michael Martin's performance last night is moot because he was in the cabinet while all of the above happened. He helped sink the ship but now he is trying to distance himself from it.

ei.sdraob

K_user wrote: »

I've said it time and time again. A vote for the likes of SF is a vote for the silly hat party.

Ireland needs professionals in Government. Pick someone from FF, FG, Labour, or at least an independent. But keep the muppets out.

I wouldn't call anyone in any of the parties "professional", we are talking about career politicians here, coming mostly from public sector or law and having no experience of the real world and running a business.

Laminations

stonehallworker wrote: »

It is not Just Fianna Fail friends that boomed under the Celtic Tiger. Eamon Gilmores Wife made a killing twice on Land sold to a school in Galway (which as a private citizen she is entitled to do) Just pointing out lots of people benitfited from the property boom

Fianna Fail handeled the Banking Crisis very badly there is no denying that BUT During every budget over the last 10 years Fine Gael and Labour attacked them for not spending more.

When you read these parties policies note they won't touch INCOME TAX but they don't tell you what they are going to tax to pay for a Fully Restructed Health Systems (that the unions won't let happen anyway)

K_user wrote: »

Very good points.

But people don't want to hear that. They are looking for blame.

They are not very good points, they are incorrect.

Gilmore's wife never attended the Galway tent. Gilmore's wife didn't hoarde the property. Gilmore's wife profitted from market conditions, she (or he) did not create those market conditions

Spending the same or more does not equal the same results - thats why it is called targeted spending. If you don't believe it, then pay 5 quid for a child to paint your walls. Now pay the same or more for a professional painter and you get very different results. According to your logic spending more would automatically equal a worse result. Also you both are obviously unfamiliar with Brutons budget speeches (2005-2008) where he highlighted many problems that FF let get out of hand.

It is untrue that FG have not given details on how the 'Restructed Health System' would be funded, you both have just not bothered to listen. They have broad ideas with some decent detail, but to expect them to have every detail worked out is a tad unrealistic.

hoorsmelt

Just what do you think FF can do in opposition? They are discredited (rightly so) and this residual idea that a few eejits seem to have that they have any competence at all in any field they've been involved in is staggering. FFS, look at the state of the countrys economy, the health service, public transport, regional roads, education and the state of our political system and tell me seriously that we need this shower to have any role whatsoever to play in the future running of the country. The ULA and SF will be far more competent as they at least recognise the reality others aren't willing to face, ie that default is inevitable and will happen, and that the question is what measures to take to deal with this inevitability rather than trying to ignore it.

ChippingSodbury

If, in 2007, the Government was formed of FG/Lab + others coalition, would we be in the same mess that we are in now? I think the answer is Yes.
If the FG/ Lab had been able to form a Government in 2002, would we be in teh same mess? I think the answer is also Yes.
Look back at any of the Budget responses from the Opposition from the last ten years and you will see how nobody shouted Stop (usually shouted More...)
We are all in some way responsible for the mess, with FF shouldering the majority of the blame so I think it is a bit disingenuous to call for the annihilation of a party who only did what any other Government would have also done.
Having said that, they need to be on the backbenches for a while to sort themselves out and rid the party of cronyism/ corruption etc. I would like to see FG in power without Lab because I think they would stand a much better chance of taking the measures required to get us back on our feet: even if this means having to put up with Mr. Kenny as Taoiseach (I'd much rather Bruton/ Noonan). I listened to some of the TV3 debate and it confirmed my opinion of Eamon Gilmore: full of hot air and policies that are pleasing to the masses.

jacool

ChippingSodbury wrote: »

If, in 2007, the Government was formed of FG/Lab + others coalition, would we be in the same mess that we are in now? I think the answer is Yes.
If the FG/ Lab had been able to form a Government in 2002, would we be in teh same mess? I think the answer is also Yes.

And you can prove this how, exactly ?
I believe that the people who hung around with FF in the Galway tent and other places, wouldn't have the same associations with any other political party. Everybody gravitates to where they feel comfortable and FF and the others who brought us crashing down were easy bed fellows.
I am of course blithely ignoring the fact here that FF were actually the best ever and it was only global conditions that brought everything to an end!!!! They said so, repeatedly!

20Cent

They should be annihilated. Moral Hazard and all that Joe Soap keeps hearing about. Suggesting that they will be good to have in opposition is laughable. Pretty much everything they touched was a disaster and cost billions to the public until they finally ruined the whole country. They should just disband in shame after what has happened.

ChippingSodbury

The proof is available in the Budget responses from the last ten years: these are the solutions that the opposition would have implemented had they been in power. I specifically remember the Labour Spokesman on Finance responding to the Budget when the National Pensions Reserve Fund was being set up stating that it was a ludricous idea and that we should be spending the money now...

The bit in all of this that really depresses me is that whoever forms the next Government does not have a magic wand to fix all woes, mind you, you'd nearly guess that Eamon Gilmore has one in his back pocket because he never mentions any cuts/ pain the population will have to suffer if/when they get into power.

Buceph

20Cent wrote: »

They should be annihilated. Moral Hazard and all that Joe Soap keeps hearing about. Suggesting that they will be good to have in opposition is laughable. Pretty much everything they touched was a disaster and cost billions to the public until they finally ruined the whole country. They should just disband in shame after what has happened.

But they won't be annihilated. There will always be the party faithful who believe that because they are a part of the system, they can change the party for the better.

It's idealistic fantasy to think that they'll be completely destroyed, so the rational approach is to ensure that something better comes out of whatever state they do enter after what will be a massive wake up call. But to think Fianna Fail will disappear is lunacy.