Micheal Martin - FF have they changed?

This would suggest no:



and it would suggest that FF are tied to vested interests ....Anyone care to argue against?

Has Michael Martins leadership changed the party or is it more of the same?

flutered

a leapord never changes it spots, the eu dunce is still squalking on finance, despite every utterence and thing he has done in the last four years has been proved wrong, odea who signed a high court affidavit that he should have not, back squeaking again, a deputy leader that carried a family member all over the world at our expense i hope this can clarify and answer your question.

gandalf

This election literature from 1987 suggests not.

http://irishelectionliterature.wordpress.com/2009/09/11/fianna-fail-cork-south-central-1987/

C14N

I don't know if they've changed that much but they are openly accepting that they made mistakes which is a good first step. Míchael is also a good new front for FF imo and has more charisma than Cowen. I'm keeping an open mind.

Tech3

How can they change over night just because a few ministers got the kick and a new leader was put in place? Its still is the same corrupt political group running in the background that wrecked the country for the next couple of decades.

oppenheimer1

Is there any point in asking that question when this place seems to be nothing more than a FG and Labour love in?

Snakeblood

C14N wrote: »

I don't know if they've changed that much but they are openly accepting that they made mistakes which is a good first step. Míchael is also a good new front for FF imo and has more charisma than Cowen. I'm keeping an open mind.

He was a minister for 14 years. If he was going to change something, he'd have changed something. He's the same lying thief FF always have at their head, he's just found new lies to tell.

The Volt

No change, O'Dea being put back to the frontbench proves this.

Snakeblood

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

Is there any point in asking that question when this place seems to be nothing more than a FG and Labour love in?

If it helps every major party is largely composed of scumsucking weasels.

Liam Byrne

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

Is there any point in asking that question when this place seems to be nothing more than a FG and Labour love in?

Far from a "love in" from here!

A "less hate, possibly even tolerance-in", but definitely not a "love in".

And given the damage that FF have done, it's perfectly logical and understandable that they are hated.

Mr.Micro

No FF have not changed but they intend to go up a gear by opening up the cabinet to non elected people......developers, CEO s, Galway tent, Coprporate cronies and all other cronie? Suggests so in FFs new political reform proposal? Maybe I should mention a few bankers as well. Could one imagine such a set up where policy and decisions were decided by those with bias and massive vested interest. The New Corporate FF party.

Kristopherus

Are F.F. changing? Not on your life:mad: They still believe they did wrong nothing in the last 14 yrs. Had the slimiest gobs**te imaginable for a leader for most of that time. No they are not changing. The only thing that might change them is the next 14 yrs in the wilderness:mad::mad::mad:

andytown

--LOL, CHANGE ? FF?:D--Yea for the worst !

Triangle

Kristopherus wrote: »

Are F.F. changing? Not on your life:mad: They still believe they did wrong nothing in the last 14 yrs. Had the slimiest gobs**te imaginable for a leader for most of that time. No they are not changing. The only thing that might change them is the next 14 yrs in the wilderness:mad::mad::mad:

Exactly ^^

But FG and Labour haven't changed either.
The greens have changed but imo for the worse.

delta_bravo

You do realise FG received about €2m this year in corporate donations? Business follows power. Don't expect that to change

Monty Burnz

Now that Micheal Martin is in charge, in the grand tradition of FFailure leaders, I presume all manner of dirt will start leaking out about money from suspicious sources, brown envelopes etc.

andytown

andytown wrote: »

--LOL, CHANGE ? FF?:D--Yea for the worst !

Of course looking at the list of runners,who the hell has changed,same old rhetoric,same old slogans,yesterdays men

Uprisings and revolutions have always occurred in countries tyrannized over, in countries where human hearts have been forced to remain silent." ~ (The Philippines a Century Hence)

sceptre

As far as I remember, the last time a leopard managed to do anything with his spots it was in a fictional story by Rudyard Kipling. And when they were on, they were permanently on.

Micheál Martin's been a minister throughout the past 14 years. If there are spots being changed, he's open to being questioned on why he wasn't calling for spots to be changed during that time. Also, as a minister for the past 14 years, it would be a little unbelievable to suggest that his are different to the ones he's been wearing throughout the previous 14 years.

Make up your own minds, obviously.

Capt'n Midnight

How long did it take the Conservatives in the UK to change enough to be electable again ?
and was it change by the same people or was it because they were replaced with new people ?
and did they really change ?

kincsem

Snakeblood wrote: »

He was a minister for 14 years. If he was going to change something, he'd have changed something. He's the same lying thief FF always have at their head, he's just found new lies to tell.

Ah now. He is reforming politics. Let's forget the €100,000,000,000 debt that they got us into, and the €18,000,000,000 current spending deficit.

Snakeblood

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

How long did it take the Conservatives in the UK to change enough to be electable again ?
and was it change by the same people or was it because they were replaced with new people ?
and did they really change ?

The Conservatives used to be the natural party of government, and New Labour and sleaze effectively killed that. It took them years to recover their position, and it was largely because they killed off every senior politician they had in the interim.

That and Labour ran themselves into a wall with Gordon Brown and the economic collapse. I'd say that Labour would still be in with the Lib Dems if they'd found someone slightly more likeable than Gordon.

nesf

With time I dearly hope FF can change and become a more honest centre right party that is less populist. That kind of change takes years in opposition though. I hope Martin has the stomach for it and can bring the party with him. With luck the ensuing election will get rid of a lot of the dead wood like Cyprian Brady.

Shea O'Meara

Well, when Haughey was gone a brave new more accountable FFail was created. No more under the table corruption, they cleaned house, that was then, this is now they cried!....one Bertie Ahern at the helm....oh wait:eek:

I would love FFail and their supporters to disappear off the face of the planet. They will never be any good unless drastic changes are implimented, but such a self serving rotten organisation only exists because of the under table deal. If the back handers stopped they would melt away as a party for they have no substance other than making a few bob for the few.

I was hoping, at best, they would keep their heads down and **** off for a period of grace, but no. They have Martin yakking as he twists in the wind. The big boys take a back seat and let him tough it out if only to keep the lights on at party HQ.

They cannot change. All they have to offer is a tax free back hander. If they come clean, they cease to be.

Rubik.

It was very noticeable that when everything started to go wrong back in 2008, Martin decided to keep his head down. When FF were sending the troops out to face the media and defend the indefensible he was nowhere to be seen. It was done out of a motive of self-preservation and perhaps even back then he had his eye on being the next leader of FF.

This kind of cute-hoorism indicates - Micheal Martin's FF is not going to be a whole lot different than what has gone before. Cowen can rightly be accused of putting party before country, but Martin put himself before party and country.

femur61

C14N wrote: »

I don't know if they've changed that much but they are openly accepting that they made mistakes which is a good first step. Míchael is also a good new front for FF imo and has more charisma than Cowen. I'm keeping an open mind.

14 years and the only thing he has on his record is smoking ban! I'll never vote FF doesn't matter who is leader. They've ruined this country they take us for eejits. €90,000 for retiring then he becomes leader. Nothing short of fraud. Mary harney €300,000, Jim McDaid €250,000 I am so infuriated with them. Great orator so was bertie and not Goodbody say it may be 20 years till we get over this crisis.

flash1080

delta_bravo wrote: »

You do realise FG received about €2m this year in corporate donations? Business follows power. Don't expect that to change

FG have also been very welcoming of FF rejects who left to join FG because they weren't put forward to run in elections.

Sir Oxman

flash1080 wrote: »

FG have also been very welcoming of FF rejects who left to join FG because they weren't put forward to run in elections.

Could you give a few names so people can judge the quality of man or woman who left FF to join them?

The Volt

nesf wrote: »

With time I dearly hope FF can change and become a more honest centre right party that is less populist. That kind of change takes years in opposition though. I hope Martin has the stomach for it and can bring the party with him. With luck the ensuing election will get rid of a lot of the dead wood like Cyprian Brady.

in essence, merge with FG

nesf

Voltwad wrote: »

in essence, merge with FG

That's decades away. Unfortunately.

Oasis_Dublin

sceptre wrote: »

As far as I remember, the last time a leopard managed to do anything with his spots it was in a fictional story by Rudyard Kipling. And when they were on, they were permanently on.

Micheál Martin's been a minister throughout the past 14 years. If there are spots being changed, he's open to being questioned on why he wasn't calling for spots to be changed during that time. Also, as a minister for the past 14 years, it would be a little unbelievable to suggest that his are different to the ones he's been wearing throughout the previous 14 years.

+ 1

Let's also not forget the re-appointment of Willie "lies to the courts" O'Dea to the front bench. FF are rotten to the core.

Ash.J.Williams

Elections are not about delivering a better service for the people, they are about winning. Politicians tell us what we want to hear and we vote for the best...
FF have become masters of winning elections and they have driven us into the biggest economic crisis since independence. So it's this simple....they will probably talk the talk better than any other party, they will probably win every debate, but that does not make them honest....
It's time they sat in the opposition for a few terms and see how things go...

Sparks43

The new humble FF dont make me laugh

analucija

Mr.Micro wrote: »

No FF have not changed but they intend to go up a gear by opening up the cabinet to non elected people......developers, CEO s, Galway tent, Coprporate cronies and all other cronie? Suggests so in FFs new political reform proposal? Maybe I should mention a few bankers as well. Could one imagine such a set up where policy and decisions were decided by those with bias and massive vested interest. The New Corporate FF party.

Most of the countries on the continent allow that to get better experts in government. In this country teachers and solicitors are experts on everything from finance to green energy and maybe situation wouldn't be as bad if somebody that actually knows something about economy would hold a position of Minister for Finance. You can blame FF for doing nothing before but these electoral reform suggestions are not that bad.

RobbieTheRobber

analucija wrote: »

Most of the countries on the continent allow that to get better experts in government. In this country teachers and solicitors are experts on everything from finance to green energy and maybe situation wouldn't be as bad if somebody that actually knows something about economy would hold a position of Minister for Finance. You can blame FF for doing nothing before but these electoral reform suggestions are not that bad.

No but we can with some justification say FF dont want reform based on their recent past, I mean they only had the best part of 14 years in government to do so and did..............
Their calls for reform seem a little way to late, much in the same way mubaraks promises of reforms are deemed insulting to the egyptian people.

analucija

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

No but we can with some justification say FF dont want reform based on their recent past, I mean they only had the best part of 14 years in government to do so and did..............
Their calls for reform seem a little way to late, much in the same way mubaraks promises of reforms are deemed insulting to the egyptian people.

I was commenting the statement that we would get government of bankers, developers and other FF cronies. I think government with some expert ministers, especially in health, finance, trade and education would be more effective. Besides if they are not party members they are under less influence of party politics.

I like those ideas regardless who they are coming from but that doesn't mean that FF should be in power or that I believe that they would implement them if in power. I am just saying they are way better than the system now or anything suggested by other parties. I am sorry that they are not FG policy because then we would have chance of them being implemented.

nesf

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

No but we can with some justification say FF dont want reform based on their recent past, I mean they only had the best part of 14 years in government to do so and did..............
Their calls for reform seem a little way to late, much in the same way mubaraks promises of reforms are deemed insulting to the egyptian people.

Or that Ahern/Cowen resisted change and ensured it didn't become party policy and it is only with a change of leadership that these things can happen.

Who knows tbh.

StupidLikeAFox

they may sound like great reforms, but i wouldnt trust FF to pick the best people over their own cronies

either way we already have civil servants and govt advisors so im not sure this is really ''reform'' at all

analucija

ColHol wrote: »

they may sound like great reforms, but i wouldnt trust FF to pick the best people over their own cronies

either way we already have civil servants and govt advisors so im not sure this is really ''reform'' at all

They don't make decisions. Besides we could do with a few advisors less.

I am not Irisih and while I like a lot some things about political system here, I think it is absolutely insane that somebody can be minister for health, minister for education and minister for foreign affairs in the space of 10 years.

Dail needs to be reformed at the same time and get more power (abandoning chief whip system or secret ballot or something similar would be good).

jmayo

Monty Burnz wrote: »

Now that Micheal Martin is in charge, in the grand tradition of FFailure leaders, I presume all manner of dirt will start leaking out about money from suspicious sources, brown envelopes etc.

Well funny you should mention that.

Who was the guy that was at the famous meeting between one owen o'callghan and bertie ahern, but none other than one mehole martin.

AFAIK frank dunlop may have also been at that meeting.


http://www.independent.ie/national-news/diary-pinpoints-ahern-meeting-with-developer-1219901.html

A departmental diary entry, from when Bertie Ahern was Minister for Finance in 1994, shows the Taoiseach meeting with Mr O'Callaghan, in the company of Minister Micheal Martin, then a Fianna Fail TD.

This was the meeting than no one could remember anything about.

The diary entry is in the same month -- April 1994 -- in which Mr Ahern made lodgements totalling £30,000 to two accounts in his name.

Yet within weeks bertie had made lodgements to two of his accounts.
Nice to see he had actually got bank accounts at that stage. :rolleyes:


Oh lets not forget that in 1991, at time of local elecitons/euros that the same developer had made a £5,000 donation to the same mehole martin.

The developer had made political contributions to Mr Martin's own election campaigns. Mr Martin has admitted receiving £5,000 from the developer as a political contribution at the time of the June 1991 local elections.

Now for any of you youngsters around here, in 1991 when I was starting out in the workforce, that £5,000 would be roughly half the normal industrial wage.
BTW if one started as an engineer (real one with degree) one expected to get £13,000 to £17,000.
So in 1991 mr martin got half the normal industrial wage as a donation from a prominent developer.

Even better is seems some of this money ended up in the bank account(s) of his missus.


Also if someone wants to see where mr martin stands on owen o'callaghan, they can see the Dáil record of the debate following michael lowry's comments about cosy cartels.
Yes I know pot and kettle. :rolleyes:

Mr. Martin: I welcome the opportunity to speak on this motion and to express my sense of revulsion and anger at the manner in which the Minister with responsibility for the semi-State sector has undermined it, the directors of the various boards, the management teams, the employees and the companies themselves by his outrageous allegations of surveillance and cosy cartels which he has never substantiated. He abused the privilege of this House last Tuesday week by attacking the reputations and characters of three private [584] citizens via allegations and innuendo which have been shown to be wrong and baseless.
Most sinister of all was the use made of CIE officials who were wheeled out almost in straitjackets to support the Minister's version of events relating to the sale of the Horgan's Quay site. I agree with the journalist, Vincent Browne, who stated in The Irish Times today that this is the most serious issue to emerge so far in this affair.
This morning he further asked: “How was it contrived that a well respected executive of CIE, surrounded by the CIE lawyer, senior CIE executive and a public relations expert would agree to tell what happened at this meeting only under such extraordinary conditions, prearranged conditions which obscured the crucial piece of information that Ambrose Kelly did not participate in the negotiations”? This represents an abuse of public servants and is scandalous behaviour. No Minister should put public servants under such pressure. This Minister is intent on saving his own political skin at any cost and will do anything to preserve his position.
Last Tuesday week the Minister deliberately used the sale of this site as a diversionary tactic to shift the focus from his allegations of surveillance and cosy cartels, despite the fact that the Craig Gardner report stated that the proper procedures were followed. In addition to that the Minister, as Damien Kiberd put it last week in The Sunday Business Post, dragged the name of the Cork property developer, Owen O'Callaghan through the mire for no good reason. The site in question was valued twice by professional valuers. Colin Dowling said it was worth £450,000 while Lisneys said it was worth £475,000. The agreed price was over £603,000.
585
Most reprehensible of all was the huge play the Minister made of the fact that not a single penny had been paid for the site, even though the contract had only been issued days prior to his speech. It is inconceivable that the Minister did not know these contracts [585] had been issued, or that he had not scrutinised them before they went out. If he did, he clearly misled the Dáil without any shadow of doubt.
The concept of a science and technology park at this site is a very good one. Cork is not well endowed with such sites. The IDA no longer has resources to acquire them at will. Clearly the involvement of the private sector in the development of industrial sites and in the promotion of industrial development is one we should encourage. Cork needs more jobs and industry. It has huge unemployment problems. Cork has lost a good project because of a political vendetta. I am certain of this. Certain senior people in Fine Gael blamed Owen O'Callaghan for leaking the Hugh Coveney story to The Sunday Business Post. The fact is that they got the wrong man. The Minister for Transport, Energy and Communications also got the wrong man. He made ongoing allegations of surveillance and had no evidence to back them up. The Minister has been guilty of the most unethical behaviour, destroying reputations and engaging in character assassination. In the words of Sam Smith this morning, the Minister has sunk to old lows in Irish public life.

http://historical-debates.oireachtas.ie/D/0457/D.0457.199510180101.html

O'Callaghan is on record in the Sunday Business Post as far back as 1994-5 as speaking of Martin as a rising star being groomed to be a future Taoiseach.

Well hasn't it worked out well that the guy the developer gave half a years average industrial wage to in 1991 is now 20 years later contesting for that exact role.
Money well spent perhaps ?

http://www.rte.eu/news/2000/0613/flood.html

Tuesday, 13 June 2000

The Minister for Health, Micheál Martin, has confirmed that he solicited donations totalling £6,500 given to him by the Cork property developer Owen O'Callaghan

http://www.kenfoxe.com/2010/10/micheal-martins-e3800-hotel-bill-and-minister-hanafins-mother/comment-page-1/

Micheal Martin may well hold the record for the most expensive hotel room ever booked on behalf of an Irish Minister.

Wide Road

jmayo, was Ml Lowry a Minister at the time of your quote? If so, tell the posters on this site his political title & also tell us about his best friend.

On the road from Phibsboro to Finglas, there's a Mary Fitzpatrick giant poster in so many gardens!!

Crazy!!

Wide Road

Deleted User wrote: »

On the road from Phibsboro to Finglas, there's a Mary Fitzpatrick giant poster in so many gardens!!

Crazy!!

Thanks for telling us that.

jmayo

Wide Road wrote: »

jmayo, was Ml Lowry a Minister at the time of your quote? If so, tell the posters on this site his political title & also tell us about his best friend.

Ah the old ff ploy of deflection I see.

lowry was a member of FG, quiet close to John Bruton the leader by all accounts, he was a minister who has questions to answer re the awarding of a mobile phone license to ESAT and he subsequently was found to have evaded taxes for work done with the Dunne Group AFAIK.

Now here is the difference between FG and ff.
He was booted out of FG when his tax evasion was found out and he hasn't been let back in.

Oh and he did a deal with ff in return for his support.

Now what is your point ?

How does anything lowry has done or said change the fact that one michael martin got £5,000 in a donation from owen o'callaghan in 1991, some of which ended up in his wife's bank accounts ?
How does anything lowry has done or said change the fact that one michael martin in 1994 was at a meeting between owen o'callaghan and bertie ahern.
A meeting that resulted in a tribunal of enquiry about allegations that o'callaghan bribed bertie ahern to the tune of £80,000.

You can spin all you want about lorwy, it doesn't change the facts about martin and o'callaghan having links and martin recieving nearly half the average industrial wage from him in 1991. :rolleyes:

xshayx

Liam Byrne

nesf wrote: »

Or that Ahern/Cowen resisted change and ensured it didn't become party policy and it is only with a change of leadership that these things can happen.

Firstly, Cowen WAS a change of leader.

Secondly, Martin's appointment of O'Dea shows that nothing has changed (unfortunately).

nia121

Would anyone happen to have Micheal Martin's mobile number please? or know where I could get it. Thanks

GSF

Absolutely have NOT Changed.

News today in the papers that FF will not refer the missing £50k taken by Pee Flynn to the Gardai

K-9

Zombie thread resurrected.