Enda Kenny vows to make Irish optional for Leaving Cert

ConstantJoe

Making Irish an optional subject is a disasterous decision. Irish is our national language, we should be proud to be able to speak it. As others have said, changing the course to focus more on the language itself rather than literature is a much better option.

Also, if Irish was made optional for the Leaving Cert, surely that would mean the number of jobs for Irish teachers would collapse? There aren't really any jobs for teachers now anyway, removing more isn't really a good idea (and I realise most teachers teach more than one subject, but it would still either lead to an abundance of junior cycle teaching Irish teachers or a load of layoffs for teachers).

Couldn't Irish be split into two subjects for the Leaving Cert: Irish to teach people to speak the language fluently, which would be compulsory, and an Irish literature class as an optional subject? Obviously the literature class wouldn't be very popular, but any Irish teachers we have teaching now would have the ability to teach both, so if there's enough interest in the year at the start of LC1, make a class to do it for the Leaving Cert.

Colm!

seriouslysweet wrote: »

The language is not the only reason people attend gaelscoileanna, elitism and social standing are others, they won't change.

Really? I know people from Gaelscoileanna that are of the same social standing as those who don't...

seriouslysweet

I never said that was a fact, it's something that is perceived. Let's put it this way, none of my Gaelscoileanna friends have unemployed parents, many of my non-Gaelscoileanna friends do. Not that there is anything wrong with that either as it is so common these days but trust me, there is a perceived difference.

CG328

ConstantJoe wrote: »

Making Irish an optional subject is a disasterous decision. Irish is our national language, we should be proud to be able to speak it. As others have said, changing the course to focus more on the language itself rather than literature is a much better option.

Also, if Irish was made optional for the Leaving Cert, surely that would mean the number of jobs for Irish teachers would collapse? There aren't really any jobs for teachers now anyway, removing more isn't really a good idea (and I realise most teachers teach more than one subject, but it would still either lead to an abundance of junior cycle teaching Irish teachers or a load of layoffs for teachers).

Couldn't Irish be split into two subjects for the Leaving Cert: Irish to teach people to speak the language fluently, which would be compulsory, and an Irish literature class as an optional subject? Obviously the literature class wouldn't be very popular, but any Irish teachers we have teaching now would have the ability to teach both, so if there's enough interest in the year at the start of LC1, make a class to do it for the Leaving Cert.

Nice that some people have some consideration for us people who are currently training to be teachers this plan for making Irish a choice subject for the Leaving Cert MUST BE STOPPED!!! A major protest will be taking place outside the Dáil this coming monday at noon to voice our disgust at making our own national language a choice for the Leaving Cert. We are really loosing any sense of identity that we have as well as our culture. The language is part of the reason that tourists are attracted to Ireland. To think that students would be choosing other languages such as French or German over their own language is a disgrace

thisisadamh

I am South African so I have no desire what so ever to learn Irish, but I am forced to as I came to Ireland when I was 9. Cultural identity is very important though (I wish I could learn about my culture in school), so Irish should be compulsory up to Junior Cert. But after it should be optional. All subjects I think should be optional after JC. You should only have to do the subjects that intrest you and that you need for your college course you are interested in. I think it is stupid that you need Irish, English and a third language for a science/engineering course. Obviously you are not interested in Languages (like me) if you want to do a Science course.

lachin

I think that it's a disgrace that Fine Gael would put forward such a proposal, how on earth could an Irish party even consider this??
I don't believe that Irish isn't taught well, I think that the problem lies with the syllabus, it is terribly dated and not geared at all toward the learners. But making it compulsory at senior cycle would be a terrible mistake. Have one of our own parties no pride in our native tongue? Could they not be bothered to try and keep it alive? Shame on Fine Gael!!

AAKZF

I think Irish should definitely be optional! What use is it to anyone in the outside world?? I recognise its cultural importance but I do not believe people should have to struggle through their Leaving Cert because they are forced to do it. Some people just don't click with languages

CG328

Well People like irish because it's the national language but since all the jobs are gone in the country until they come back it's a waste of time for students atm because it's not like in america CEOS look for people speaking irish. They are looking for people who speak English, If it's a company that make stuff they want the Chinese Language as everything has "Made in china" on it.

CG328 wrote: »

Nice that some people have some consideration for us people who are currently training to be teachers this plan for making Irish a choice subject for the Leaving Cert MUST BE STOPPED!!! A major protest will be taking place outside the Dáil this coming monday at noon to voice our disgust at making our own national language a choice for the Leaving Cert. We are really loosing any sense of identity that we have as well as our culture. The language is part of the reason that tourists are attracted to Ireland. To think that students would be choosing other languages such as French or German over their own language is a disgrace

Oh yes, that's heaps crazy. Imagine people that might want to learn French to work in designer clothes or learning German to make Porches over learning Irish to ask farmers where the potatoes are. There isn't just a market for Irish at the moment. I do feel a little dirty trying to give up our own Language but IT IS optional not Gone. Students that want to learn the irish language has the ability. There still is a big population of students that want to learn irish but some students who don't Learn languages well (Like me) can't take it all on. Not to mention French is a lot easier because thousands of words are spelt or sound like English. Irish is just very complicated.

CG328

Deleted User wrote: »

Well People like irish because it's the national language but since all the jobs are gone in the country until they come back it's a waste of time for students atm because it's not like in america CEOS look for people speaking irish. They are looking for people who speak English, If it's a company that make stuff they want the Chinese Language as everything has "Made in china" on it.

By the time ye graduate, the employment situation will be very different and being able to speak more than one language is also a skill so it benefits the CV.

thick

If it's dropped for Leaving Cert eventually it will be dropped for Junoir Cert as well and it will die out completely. When I was in school I hated it, I would have loved to drop it. Now I'm very thankful that I was made to go through it and I've a strong base for further learning. Populism at its absolute worst, attacking the heart of the nation.

thisisadamh

thick wrote: »

If it's dropped for Leaving Cert eventually it will be dropped for Junoir Cert as well and it will die out completely. When I was in school I hated it, I would have loved to drop it. Now I'm very thankful that I was made to go through it and I've a strong base for further learning. Populism at its absolute worst, attacking the heart of the nation.

But what about people who just dont like languages and would rather not do them. There is no option for them!

CG328

CG328 wrote: »

By the time ye graduate, the employment situation will be very different and being able to speak more than one language is also a skill so it benefits the CV.

Your kidding me, America will take at least 7 years to get out. America is not in financial debt as bad as us. We are 80 Billion in debt + Interest. Unless I'm in Junior Infants right now By the time I turn 24 we might be coming out. It's good for the CV if you want to work in the country but if your job is outside.... Well....


I DO THINK Irish should be in the junior cert. But it needs to be taught in a way so your not learning bloody essays or Poems. It needs to be taught in the sense that over the years your thought enough to get around. So basic social language, essentals and more. Then if the person wants to know more they can take irish for the leaving cert. That's two prong, easier for people in junior Cert WHICH Could make them appeal to taking irish in leaving cert and either way your saving the language.

I am learning Irish and the way it's being thought now is a disaster. I can say that in 2 years of learning french I soaked up more since Junior Infants in irish.

CG328

Deleted User wrote: »

Your kidding me, America will take at least 7 years to get out. America is not in financial debt as bad as us. We are 80 Billion in debt + Interest. Unless I'm in Junior Infants right now By the time I turn 24 we might be coming out.

I know we are currently going through a crisis but it cannot be said that no one is getting jobs these days, there are still fortunate people. My future is depending on this decision about Irish, if you dont feel its neccessary to keep Irish thats grand but consider those who know this decision is life changing and have no prospect jobs available to them in America.

CG328

CG328 wrote: »

I know we are currently going through a crisis but it cannot be said that no one is getting jobs these days, there are still fortunate people. My future is depending on this decision about Irish, if you dont feel its neccessary to keep Irish thats grand but consider those who know this decision is life changing and have no prospect jobs available to them in America.

I think your under the impression that if they make irish optional there will only be 8 students in a room for 30. There are several more factors. Parents have a big influence over students and they might want their children to have Irish language heritage. I mean There will be a drop of 8-9 students, Most of which may be mostly Males (I'm lazy and i'm shameless) but I mean I'd like irish more if it's taught properly like how french is done. In fact french should be more complicated because right down to the letters there's more combinations.
The Jobs in the country I see that are still there and can prosper is Broadband. Faster broadband/fibre in Connaught where Irish is kind of the New black there and then having Irish speaking sales. Radio never dies, people listen to it all the time in vehicles and then in Irish areas it's spoken in irish. It needs to be shown in a way that if you want to peruse a certain job Teachers should lay it out that Irish is good to have on the CV.

Like in Transition year when they display the Jobs they should show that if any of the students are interested in a particular job they can see if Irish is good to have on a CV and to learn. For E.g I want to do Video Editing, But the type I'm going after isn't in Ireland so I don't need Irish. However if someone wants to work with Video in this country it's probably good to have on if they need to Video edit something IRISH HOWEVER the counter balance is if I go to the states and work on some good stuff and come back to Ireland, the experience I have and even though I didn't learn irish is enough to still get a job.

omg a kitty

Deleted User wrote: »

I can say that in 2 years of learning french I soaked up more since Junior Infants in irish.

Same here, I can understand most of the listening comprehensions and speak enough French to get write an essay BY MYSELF. Got 86% in Higher French listening and 70% in written.

As for Irish, my teacher writes an essay on the board, we learn it off and reproduce it in a test. I cant, and I seriously cant string together a few words in Irish to make a proper sentence. Got 12.5% in Higher Irish listening(and that was the 3rd best in the class).

17/25 in my class does Higher level French, 4/25 does Higher level Irish, I asked them and none of them want to but the teacher is making them: The highest overall grade anyone got in Higher Irish is 54%.
And we're the top 3rd year class.

That should say a lot about how much the youth of this generation loves Irish

CG328

Deleted User wrote: »

I think your under the impression that if they make irish optional there will only be 8 students in a room for 30. There are several more factors. Parents have a big influence over students and they might want their children to have Irish language heritage. I mean There will be a drop of 8-9 students, Most of which may be mostly Males (I'm lazy and i'm shameless) but I mean I'd like irish more if it's taught properly like how french is done. In fact french should be more complicated because right down to the letters there's more combinations.
The Jobs in the country I see that are still there and can prosper is Broadband. Faster broadband/fibre in Connaught where Irish is kind of the New black there and then having Irish speaking sales. Radio never dies, people listen to it all the time in vehicles and then in Irish areas it's spoken in irish. It needs to be shown in a way that if you want to peruse a certain job Teachers should lay it out that Irish is good to have on the CV

I agree the method of teaching is not right. Little grammar work is done and the basics are not well known. If students know they won't be studying Irish for the leaving cert, this will mean they may not put as much effort into their irish for junior cert i.e it will have a domino effect. I am not doin a degree to sell broadband, I am doing a degree to be a teacher. I would still suggest that many people would keep it on as a c3 in honours irish in the Leaving Cert is a requirement to be a primary school teacher.

omg a kitty

omg a kitty wrote: »

Same here, I can understand most of the listening comprehensions and speak enough French to get write an essay BY MYSELF. Got 86% in Higher French listening and 70% in written.

As for Irish, my teacher writes an essay on the board, we learn it off and reproduce it in a test. I cant, and I seriously cant string together a few words in Irish to make a proper sentence. Got 12.5% in Higher Irish listening(and that was the 3rd best in the class).

17/25 in my class does Higher level French, 4/25 does Higher level Irish, I asked them and none of them want to but the teacher is making them: The highest overall grade anyone got in Higher Irish is 54%.
And we're the top 3rd year class.

That should say a lot about how much the youth of this generation loves Irish

Some students love irish but It's down to how it's taught and I'm sorry to say but unless students studying irish for jobs have enough initiative they will end up like every other irish teacher who can't teach irish properly. Teachers need to see it from almost a tourist perspective. What do you need to know to make conversation. After conversation we need to know no more.

CG328 wrote: »

I agree the method of teaching is not right. Little grammar work is done and the basics are not well known. If students know they won't be studying Irish for the leaving cert, this will mean they may not put as much effort into their irish for junior cert i.e it will have a domino effect. I am not doin a degree to sell broadband, I am doing a degree to be a teacher. I would still suggest that many people would keep it on as a c3 in honours irish is a requirement to be a primary school teacher.

I know your perusing teaching, I'm talking about what the students want to do besides teaching. Props to you though for wanting to be an irish teacher. Just don't be like the rest of them :cool: Another thing is perhaps if students get a C or a B and above in irish in their junior cert they are eligible to make irish optional.

Double post

CG328

Deleted User wrote: »

I know your perusing teaching, I'm talking about what the students want to do besides teaching. Props to you though for wanting to be an irish teacher. Just don't be like the rest of them :cool:

thanks for that, i dont mean to be so strongly, its just something Im very passionate about. The irish curriculum should be modernised and there should be more of an emphasis on learning and understanding the language, rather than learning some off that you have no clue of what it is about. I think that if there was more of an emphasis on understanding the basics that there would be more of an interest in the language. In school we had a rule that we had to speak irish in class, this surprisingly didnt last long as not many knew how to string a sentence together. curriculum needs to be changed!

CG328

CG328 wrote: »

thanks for that, i dont mean to be so strongly, its just something Im very passionate about. The irish curriculum should be modernised and there should be more of an emphasis on learning and understanding the language, rather than learning some off that you have no clue of what it is about. I think that if there was more of an emphasis on understanding the basics that there would be more of an interest in the language. In school we had a rule that we had to speak irish in class, this surprisingly didnt last long as not many knew how to string a sentence together. curriculum needs to be changed!

OH man I remember that irish thing in primary school. I edited the post you quoted. Check back about the C and B thing

omg a kitty

CG328 wrote: »

curriculum needs to be changed!

Deleted User wrote: »

Teachers need to see it from almost a tourist perspective. What do you need to know to make conversation. After conversation we need to know no more.

Hear Hear

omg a kitty

omg a kitty wrote: »

Hear Hear

The tourist thing is in RE: To up to the junior cert. After that it's open season.

omg a kitty

Deleted User wrote: »

The tourist thing is in RE: To up to the junior cert. After that it's open season.

Ah well obviously it should get harder as it goes along(:P:rolleyes:) Thats how school works isnt it

seriouslysweet

My teacher for Irish speaks 6 languages, basically speaks to us as Gaeilge all the time, she's brilliant but seems to teach it really really differently to most, aka the way it should be taught!

seriouslysweet

seriouslysweet wrote: »

My teacher for Irish speaks 6 languages, basically speaks to us as Gaeilge all the time, she's brilliant but seems to teach it really really differently to most, aka the way it should be taught!

Just reminded me. Really confusing is that if every year you get a different teacher they teach irish in different ways depending on where they came from and learned in themselves. There's the munster and northern ireland way and then some.

omg a kitty

And did you ever notice how in the listening comprehensions for Irish they speak in accents...I mean...we can barely understand normal Irish and they give us accents

CG328

omg a kitty wrote: »

And did you ever notice how in the listening comprehensions for Irish they speak in accents...I mean...we can barely understand normal Irish and they give us accents

Everyone who speaks Irish has different accent, e.g you speak a different accent to someone else. The cluaistuiscint uses various dialects of the language from across the country, thats what you might mean to say

omg a kitty

CG328 wrote: »

Everyone who speaks Irish has different accent, e.g you speak a different accent to someone else. The cluaistuiscint uses various dialects of the language from across the country, thats what you might mean to say

Well they should made regional listening comprehensions

CG328

omg a kitty wrote: »

Well they should made regional listening comprehensions

Regional as in only cluaistuiscint's containing the irish from your area?? what is the point in that sure? They are testing you on your knowledge of different dialects of Irish. So if you were learning Irish from Dublin and then went to Donegal and could not understand there Irish, what are you supposed to say? Oh sorry your dialect of Irish was not on my cluaistuiscint?

omg a kitty

CG328 wrote: »

Regional as in only cluaistuiscint's containing the irish from your area?? what is the point in that sure? They are testing you on your knowledge of different dialects of Irish. So if you were learning Irish from Dublin and then went to Donegal and could not understand there Irish, what are you supposed to say? Oh sorry your dialect of Irish was not on my cluaistuiscint?

Fair point. But it doesnt make sense to have other dialects of Irish when the students can barely understand ANY Irish and lets face it, most of the students never speak a single word of Irish in their lives after Leaving Cert.