Enda Kenny vows to make Irish optional for Leaving Cert

omg a kitty

The Fine Gael leader confirmed his party's election manifesto includes proposals to abolish the subject's mandatory status in the Leaving Certificate.

In an interview on Raidio na Gaeltachta's Adhmhaidin morning show, Mr Kenny said Irish as a compulsory class had clearly failed.

Who's looking forward to this?
I believe Irish is a dead language and its useless, because under 5% of Ireland speaks Irish. They should either just drop it(more preferred ) or find a way better way of teaching it.

Irish as a compulsory class had clearly failed.

Amen to that.

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/21/20110207/tuk-kenny-vows-to-make-irish-optional-e1cd776.html

And don't move this thread cos its the Junior Cert Students now who gets to choose whether they want to do Irish or not IF Fine Gael comes to power.

PS vote FG?

TehFionnster

He says that now, but I highly doubt it'll be on his "most important" to-do list, infact, I'd reckon it'll be at the bottom and one thing for sure is, We certainly won't get the choice, we're waay too late I'd imagine.

Also, I assure you, Irish is not dead seeing as 5% of the population speak it, so you've contradicted yourself :P

omg a kitty

TehFionnster wrote: »

Also, I assure you, Irish is not dead seeing as 5% of the population speak it

with all do respect, id love to know how much of that 5% is under the age of 50

Look at it logically. You don't have a vote (I assume, since you're doing JC). He has no reason to give non-voters what they want since the majority of the 5% who appreciate Irish are probably on the register.

Also I'd be so angry that younger generations get the "get out of Gaeilge free" card when it was my worst subject all the way from JC to LC!

omg a kitty

true-or-false wrote: »

Also I'd be so angry that younger generations get the "get out of Gaeilge free" card when it was my worst subject all the way from JC to LC!

well then its time for a change isnt it?

Desire to Aspire

Irish should be compulsory. It's our national language, and we should be proud of it.

rorrissey

"Not to learn Irish is to miss the opportunity of understanding what life in this country has meant and could mean in a better future. It is to cut oneself off from ways of being at home. If we regard self understanding, mutual understanding, imaginative enchantment, cultural diversity and a tolerant political atmosphere as desirable attainments, we should remember that a knowledge of the Irish language is an essential element in their realization."
-Seamus Heaney.

you wha?

i think it would a stupid idea to change it.it should be compulsory.the reason it isnt tha tpopular(not dead!) is because of the way it is taught.change that and it might help with improving the stats of how many of the population can speak it. im proud of the fact i can speak it and think it would be such a shame if it did die out.

d.a.r.r.a.g.h

I don't understand why people feel the need to drop Irish. Irish is our national language, and our national culture. The problem with the language is that the language is taught terribly right through primary school and into secondary school. I have been doing French for three years and I have been doing Irish for 11, and I can say that I have made so much more progress with my French in those three years than my whole 11 years of Irish. I find much of the course repetitive an the method of teaching is inefficient with too much of an emphasis on poetry and literature, esp.in leaving cert and not enough of an emphasis on the spoken language and comprehension.

rorrissey

They should teach Irish like they teach French, focusing on the language and not the literature like they do in English class. Then, there should also be a choice whether you want to study Irish language or literature for more advanced people. It's not fair that the country's language should die out completely. I know there's so little people who speak it anymore, but if this goes on no one will be able to, it'll become pretty much extinct.
My Mom teaches a naíonra, she was born and raised and the Gaelteacht. My dad grew up in Cork, spoke English at home and when he met my mom in college he learnt most of his Irish from her. Now, he's an Irish lecturer. Myself and my four brothers have been speaking fluent Irish at home since we were born. My sister has 2 kids now, and she speaks Irish to them both as well.
I'm proud to have the language. Tír gan teanga, tír gan anam.

Desire to Aspire

Easy A in the Junior Cert for you so? :P

rorrissey

Desire to Aspire wrote: »

Easy A in the Junior Cert for you so? :P

Damn right! And my Irish teacher adores me because she's friends with my parents... You guys are all missing out! If you speak Irish at home teachers automatically love you so much! :P

omg a kitty

Yes, they should find a better way to teach it.
And the gap between higher level and ordinary level Irish is HUUUUUGEE
I'm after dropping down after getting 23% in higher level for Christmas, now I got a C
I know its not right to just stop teaching it, but when you think about it, if they just continue teaching like this its going to be extinct anyway so why even bother in the first place...
The teachers assumed we knew Irish really well when we got to secondary but we knew F all..
I spoke better French by the end of first year than Irish(after learning it for years in Primary school!)

Azuraiii

Its because many students dislike the subject and aren't giving enough interest.

I don't do Irish, but hearing from my classmates, most of them dislike it, sorry to say, i have not heard a positive comment about Irish in my school whatsoever.

In my opinion, They should just make Irish optional for students who actually want to do it & not give grief to the students who detest it,

Your wasting valuable time and opportunity to learn other subjects if your doing something you don't want to learn.

Azuraiii.

bigred100

Speaking from experience I remember when the hatred started. It went from talking Irish to learning off lines basically. Not how thing were used, no understanding of how to write sentences. Just learning line by line and banging it back out. I wouldn't mind knowing the language but unless the way it's thought changes then maybe it is better dropping it as a compulsory subject. At least then people can choose subjects they might have more interest in in place of it, and those who don't struggle with it can keep it on.

Cakes.

The way it is thought should be changed and all school's should be Gaelscoil's which teach through Irish and English.

Switzerland have three national languages, German, French and Italian. AFAIK most people there speak all three. Why cant most people here speak both English and Irish.

There should be an Irish revival not just in schools but in the whole country. We should all try our best to make Irish our main language. I myself would love to speak Irish as my first language and try my best to when in the company of other people who can speak Irish. I plan to use Irish as my first language in the future.

Is brea liom Gaeilge.

Desire to Aspire

Azuraiii wrote: »

I don't do Irish, but hearing from my classmates, most of them dislike it, sorry to say, i have not heard a positive comment about Irish in my school whatsoever.

Do you hear positive comments about English? I know I certainly don't. Same with Maths. If we only did subjects we liked and enjoyed, we wouldn't be doing much.

TehFionnster

Is brea liom Gaeilge fresin.

But really, the government of this day and age, has neither the time or the resources to facilitate a "national revival" of the language, that's not to say I wouldn't love to see it happen.

And yes, Irish is taught horribly in schools, I'm fortunate to have enough Irish to be able to fashion my own answers on the day, but my classmates hate it, and they learn off reams and reams of answers for Filíocht agus Prós and really, it's slowly instilling hatred into them for a really great language.

Go to a Gaeltacht, that'd sort out your hatred of Irish.

Rant over

Cakes.

it shouldn't be left to the government to revive our language.there are other ways we can do it ourselves. The more you speak Irish the more others will learn. I am going to start speaking Irish way more after hearing this.

omg a kitty

Desire to Aspire wrote: »

Do you hear positive comments about English?

I most certainly do, and Maths isn't really hated in my school

I'd love to see a revival of Irish, and for it to be taught better. I also think it should be compulsory for Junior Cert. But I think it's unfair that it's compulsory for Leaving Cert. Some people are naturally good at languages and other people naturally struggle quite a lot with it. I do Science in college, and I think it's ridiculous that I needed to do English French and Irish to get the points. The compulsory language could have stopped me getting into a course that has no language component. English and one other language is more than enough.

Lucyspell

Irish should be optional in schools. Those who love the language will keep it alive anyway. The big down side of compulsary Irish is that it affects our standard of european language learning. We need to have a good standard of French, German etc, to improve our trade and communications with Europe. At the moment this is being interfered with, by the compulsary Irish rule.
I also hate the Irish names on housing estates and roads. It makes life very difficult for visitors and also for essential emergency services to locate an address. It is just needless confusion.

rorrissey

The Gaelteachts will loose so much money because of this... Some of them might even shut down? If people aren't doing it in school, then they won't be spending 2 weeks or whatever of their summer there. That's a shame because it's meant to be great fun!

omg a kitty

rorrissey wrote: »

The Gaelteachts will loose so much money because of this... Some of them might even shut down? If people aren't doing it in school, then they won't be spending 2 weeks or whatever of their summer there. That's a shame because it's meant to be great fun!

The only people who goes to Gaelteachts are people who likes Irish, and they will continue on learning Irish in schools so it wont really make much difference. And we're talking about Leaving Cert...most of the students who go to Gaelteachts are JC students

Azuraiii

Desire to Aspire wrote: »

Do you hear positive comments about English? I know I certainly don't. Same with Maths. If we only did subjects we liked and enjoyed, we wouldn't be doing much.

I certainly do, We like our English classes, essays are pretty easy to do, We watched "Merchant Of Venice" when we were studying it & at the moment we are watching "To Kill a Mockingbird" as we are studying it.

Maths, Yeh, There are negative comments..but theres no reason to drop it.
Hence its fine.

What im trying to get across is that Irish should be studied by people who want to do Irish.
It's not fair forcing someone, If you do they will surely detest it.

seriouslysweet

Instead of Irish it'll be another language, not another subject that is being studied. I don't think that is being made clear enough but of course it's not as this is a political way of FG gaining popularity in my honest opinion.

Colm!

Lads.

I LOVE IRISH. Really. I do.
I just hate the subject. It needs to be restructured entirely. The way Irish works at the moment is this:
You are expected to have an understanding of Irish literature.
So your teacher shoves notes about Dioltas An Madra Rua down your throat.

The way Irish should work at the moment is this:
You are expected to be able to converse in your national language.
So you converse in your national language.

CG328

omg a kitty wrote: »

The only people who goes to Gaelteachts are people who likes Irish, and they will continue on learning Irish in schools so it wont really make much difference. And we're talking about Leaving Cert...most of the students who go to Gaelteachts are JC students

Completely untrue that the majority of the people who go to the Gaeltacht are Junior Cert students...

rorrissey

Gaelscoils will be shut down or at least less popular, because the reason most people send their kids there is because they want them to have good Irish so that they can do well in their Leaving Certs. Same with Gaelteachts, even though you said most students who go are JC cycle. I don't know how true that is, but even if it is true they will still become more unpopular. People will care less about what they earn in Irish JC if they won't be continuing it on for the Leaving.
Just saying... It's an absolute shame that they're doing this. I agree it's taught badly, they should just change the teaching method and that would help a lot. People wouldn't be so against it, it's a beautiful language.

seriouslysweet

The language is not the only reason people attend gaelscoileanna, elitism and social standing are others, they won't change.

omg a kitty

rorrissey wrote: »

It's an absolute shame that they're doing this. I agree it's taught badly, they should just change the teaching method and that would help a lot. People wouldn't be so against it, it's a beautiful language.

I agree its a beautiful language, but its being hated more and more as we speak. It doesnt look like theyre changing the syllabus(AGAIN) anytime soon and theres no hope of the revival of the language if they dont. So making it optional will at least preserve it as a historical language and not a hated SUBJECT for future generations.

ConstantJoe

Making Irish an optional subject is a disasterous decision. Irish is our national language, we should be proud to be able to speak it. As others have said, changing the course to focus more on the language itself rather than literature is a much better option.

Also, if Irish was made optional for the Leaving Cert, surely that would mean the number of jobs for Irish teachers would collapse? There aren't really any jobs for teachers now anyway, removing more isn't really a good idea (and I realise most teachers teach more than one subject, but it would still either lead to an abundance of junior cycle teaching Irish teachers or a load of layoffs for teachers).

Couldn't Irish be split into two subjects for the Leaving Cert: Irish to teach people to speak the language fluently, which would be compulsory, and an Irish literature class as an optional subject? Obviously the literature class wouldn't be very popular, but any Irish teachers we have teaching now would have the ability to teach both, so if there's enough interest in the year at the start of LC1, make a class to do it for the Leaving Cert.

Colm!

seriouslysweet wrote: »

The language is not the only reason people attend gaelscoileanna, elitism and social standing are others, they won't change.

Really? I know people from Gaelscoileanna that are of the same social standing as those who don't...

seriouslysweet

I never said that was a fact, it's something that is perceived. Let's put it this way, none of my Gaelscoileanna friends have unemployed parents, many of my non-Gaelscoileanna friends do. Not that there is anything wrong with that either as it is so common these days but trust me, there is a perceived difference.

CG328

ConstantJoe wrote: »

Making Irish an optional subject is a disasterous decision. Irish is our national language, we should be proud to be able to speak it. As others have said, changing the course to focus more on the language itself rather than literature is a much better option.

Also, if Irish was made optional for the Leaving Cert, surely that would mean the number of jobs for Irish teachers would collapse? There aren't really any jobs for teachers now anyway, removing more isn't really a good idea (and I realise most teachers teach more than one subject, but it would still either lead to an abundance of junior cycle teaching Irish teachers or a load of layoffs for teachers).

Couldn't Irish be split into two subjects for the Leaving Cert: Irish to teach people to speak the language fluently, which would be compulsory, and an Irish literature class as an optional subject? Obviously the literature class wouldn't be very popular, but any Irish teachers we have teaching now would have the ability to teach both, so if there's enough interest in the year at the start of LC1, make a class to do it for the Leaving Cert.

Nice that some people have some consideration for us people who are currently training to be teachers this plan for making Irish a choice subject for the Leaving Cert MUST BE STOPPED!!! A major protest will be taking place outside the Dáil this coming monday at noon to voice our disgust at making our own national language a choice for the Leaving Cert. We are really loosing any sense of identity that we have as well as our culture. The language is part of the reason that tourists are attracted to Ireland. To think that students would be choosing other languages such as French or German over their own language is a disgrace

thisisadamh

I am South African so I have no desire what so ever to learn Irish, but I am forced to as I came to Ireland when I was 9. Cultural identity is very important though (I wish I could learn about my culture in school), so Irish should be compulsory up to Junior Cert. But after it should be optional. All subjects I think should be optional after JC. You should only have to do the subjects that intrest you and that you need for your college course you are interested in. I think it is stupid that you need Irish, English and a third language for a science/engineering course. Obviously you are not interested in Languages (like me) if you want to do a Science course.

lachin

I think that it's a disgrace that Fine Gael would put forward such a proposal, how on earth could an Irish party even consider this??
I don't believe that Irish isn't taught well, I think that the problem lies with the syllabus, it is terribly dated and not geared at all toward the learners. But making it compulsory at senior cycle would be a terrible mistake. Have one of our own parties no pride in our native tongue? Could they not be bothered to try and keep it alive? Shame on Fine Gael!!

AAKZF

I think Irish should definitely be optional! What use is it to anyone in the outside world?? I recognise its cultural importance but I do not believe people should have to struggle through their Leaving Cert because they are forced to do it. Some people just don't click with languages

CG328

Well People like irish because it's the national language but since all the jobs are gone in the country until they come back it's a waste of time for students atm because it's not like in america CEOS look for people speaking irish. They are looking for people who speak English, If it's a company that make stuff they want the Chinese Language as everything has "Made in china" on it.

CG328 wrote: »

Nice that some people have some consideration for us people who are currently training to be teachers this plan for making Irish a choice subject for the Leaving Cert MUST BE STOPPED!!! A major protest will be taking place outside the Dáil this coming monday at noon to voice our disgust at making our own national language a choice for the Leaving Cert. We are really loosing any sense of identity that we have as well as our culture. The language is part of the reason that tourists are attracted to Ireland. To think that students would be choosing other languages such as French or German over their own language is a disgrace

Oh yes, that's heaps crazy. Imagine people that might want to learn French to work in designer clothes or learning German to make Porches over learning Irish to ask farmers where the potatoes are. There isn't just a market for Irish at the moment. I do feel a little dirty trying to give up our own Language but IT IS optional not Gone. Students that want to learn the irish language has the ability. There still is a big population of students that want to learn irish but some students who don't Learn languages well (Like me) can't take it all on. Not to mention French is a lot easier because thousands of words are spelt or sound like English. Irish is just very complicated.

CG328

Deleted User wrote: »

Well People like irish because it's the national language but since all the jobs are gone in the country until they come back it's a waste of time for students atm because it's not like in america CEOS look for people speaking irish. They are looking for people who speak English, If it's a company that make stuff they want the Chinese Language as everything has "Made in china" on it.

By the time ye graduate, the employment situation will be very different and being able to speak more than one language is also a skill so it benefits the CV.

thick

If it's dropped for Leaving Cert eventually it will be dropped for Junoir Cert as well and it will die out completely. When I was in school I hated it, I would have loved to drop it. Now I'm very thankful that I was made to go through it and I've a strong base for further learning. Populism at its absolute worst, attacking the heart of the nation.

thisisadamh

thick wrote: »

If it's dropped for Leaving Cert eventually it will be dropped for Junoir Cert as well and it will die out completely. When I was in school I hated it, I would have loved to drop it. Now I'm very thankful that I was made to go through it and I've a strong base for further learning. Populism at its absolute worst, attacking the heart of the nation.

But what about people who just dont like languages and would rather not do them. There is no option for them!

CG328

CG328 wrote: »

By the time ye graduate, the employment situation will be very different and being able to speak more than one language is also a skill so it benefits the CV.

Your kidding me, America will take at least 7 years to get out. America is not in financial debt as bad as us. We are 80 Billion in debt + Interest. Unless I'm in Junior Infants right now By the time I turn 24 we might be coming out. It's good for the CV if you want to work in the country but if your job is outside.... Well....


I DO THINK Irish should be in the junior cert. But it needs to be taught in a way so your not learning bloody essays or Poems. It needs to be taught in the sense that over the years your thought enough to get around. So basic social language, essentals and more. Then if the person wants to know more they can take irish for the leaving cert. That's two prong, easier for people in junior Cert WHICH Could make them appeal to taking irish in leaving cert and either way your saving the language.

I am learning Irish and the way it's being thought now is a disaster. I can say that in 2 years of learning french I soaked up more since Junior Infants in irish.

CG328

Deleted User wrote: »

Your kidding me, America will take at least 7 years to get out. America is not in financial debt as bad as us. We are 80 Billion in debt + Interest. Unless I'm in Junior Infants right now By the time I turn 24 we might be coming out.

I know we are currently going through a crisis but it cannot be said that no one is getting jobs these days, there are still fortunate people. My future is depending on this decision about Irish, if you dont feel its neccessary to keep Irish thats grand but consider those who know this decision is life changing and have no prospect jobs available to them in America.

CG328

CG328 wrote: »

I know we are currently going through a crisis but it cannot be said that no one is getting jobs these days, there are still fortunate people. My future is depending on this decision about Irish, if you dont feel its neccessary to keep Irish thats grand but consider those who know this decision is life changing and have no prospect jobs available to them in America.

I think your under the impression that if they make irish optional there will only be 8 students in a room for 30. There are several more factors. Parents have a big influence over students and they might want their children to have Irish language heritage. I mean There will be a drop of 8-9 students, Most of which may be mostly Males (I'm lazy and i'm shameless) but I mean I'd like irish more if it's taught properly like how french is done. In fact french should be more complicated because right down to the letters there's more combinations.
The Jobs in the country I see that are still there and can prosper is Broadband. Faster broadband/fibre in Connaught where Irish is kind of the New black there and then having Irish speaking sales. Radio never dies, people listen to it all the time in vehicles and then in Irish areas it's spoken in irish. It needs to be shown in a way that if you want to peruse a certain job Teachers should lay it out that Irish is good to have on the CV.

Like in Transition year when they display the Jobs they should show that if any of the students are interested in a particular job they can see if Irish is good to have on a CV and to learn. For E.g I want to do Video Editing, But the type I'm going after isn't in Ireland so I don't need Irish. However if someone wants to work with Video in this country it's probably good to have on if they need to Video edit something IRISH HOWEVER the counter balance is if I go to the states and work on some good stuff and come back to Ireland, the experience I have and even though I didn't learn irish is enough to still get a job.

omg a kitty

Deleted User wrote: »

I can say that in 2 years of learning french I soaked up more since Junior Infants in irish.

Same here, I can understand most of the listening comprehensions and speak enough French to get write an essay BY MYSELF. Got 86% in Higher French listening and 70% in written.

As for Irish, my teacher writes an essay on the board, we learn it off and reproduce it in a test. I cant, and I seriously cant string together a few words in Irish to make a proper sentence. Got 12.5% in Higher Irish listening(and that was the 3rd best in the class).

17/25 in my class does Higher level French, 4/25 does Higher level Irish, I asked them and none of them want to but the teacher is making them: The highest overall grade anyone got in Higher Irish is 54%.
And we're the top 3rd year class.

That should say a lot about how much the youth of this generation loves Irish

CG328

Deleted User wrote: »

I think your under the impression that if they make irish optional there will only be 8 students in a room for 30. There are several more factors. Parents have a big influence over students and they might want their children to have Irish language heritage. I mean There will be a drop of 8-9 students, Most of which may be mostly Males (I'm lazy and i'm shameless) but I mean I'd like irish more if it's taught properly like how french is done. In fact french should be more complicated because right down to the letters there's more combinations.
The Jobs in the country I see that are still there and can prosper is Broadband. Faster broadband/fibre in Connaught where Irish is kind of the New black there and then having Irish speaking sales. Radio never dies, people listen to it all the time in vehicles and then in Irish areas it's spoken in irish. It needs to be shown in a way that if you want to peruse a certain job Teachers should lay it out that Irish is good to have on the CV

I agree the method of teaching is not right. Little grammar work is done and the basics are not well known. If students know they won't be studying Irish for the leaving cert, this will mean they may not put as much effort into their irish for junior cert i.e it will have a domino effect. I am not doin a degree to sell broadband, I am doing a degree to be a teacher. I would still suggest that many people would keep it on as a c3 in honours irish in the Leaving Cert is a requirement to be a primary school teacher.

omg a kitty

omg a kitty wrote: »

Same here, I can understand most of the listening comprehensions and speak enough French to get write an essay BY MYSELF. Got 86% in Higher French listening and 70% in written.

As for Irish, my teacher writes an essay on the board, we learn it off and reproduce it in a test. I cant, and I seriously cant string together a few words in Irish to make a proper sentence. Got 12.5% in Higher Irish listening(and that was the 3rd best in the class).

17/25 in my class does Higher level French, 4/25 does Higher level Irish, I asked them and none of them want to but the teacher is making them: The highest overall grade anyone got in Higher Irish is 54%.
And we're the top 3rd year class.

That should say a lot about how much the youth of this generation loves Irish

Some students love irish but It's down to how it's taught and I'm sorry to say but unless students studying irish for jobs have enough initiative they will end up like every other irish teacher who can't teach irish properly. Teachers need to see it from almost a tourist perspective. What do you need to know to make conversation. After conversation we need to know no more.

CG328 wrote: »

I agree the method of teaching is not right. Little grammar work is done and the basics are not well known. If students know they won't be studying Irish for the leaving cert, this will mean they may not put as much effort into their irish for junior cert i.e it will have a domino effect. I am not doin a degree to sell broadband, I am doing a degree to be a teacher. I would still suggest that many people would keep it on as a c3 in honours irish is a requirement to be a primary school teacher.

I know your perusing teaching, I'm talking about what the students want to do besides teaching. Props to you though for wanting to be an irish teacher. Just don't be like the rest of them :cool: Another thing is perhaps if students get a C or a B and above in irish in their junior cert they are eligible to make irish optional.

Double post

CG328

Deleted User wrote: »

I know your perusing teaching, I'm talking about what the students want to do besides teaching. Props to you though for wanting to be an irish teacher. Just don't be like the rest of them :cool:

thanks for that, i dont mean to be so strongly, its just something Im very passionate about. The irish curriculum should be modernised and there should be more of an emphasis on learning and understanding the language, rather than learning some off that you have no clue of what it is about. I think that if there was more of an emphasis on understanding the basics that there would be more of an interest in the language. In school we had a rule that we had to speak irish in class, this surprisingly didnt last long as not many knew how to string a sentence together. curriculum needs to be changed!

CG328

CG328 wrote: »

thanks for that, i dont mean to be so strongly, its just something Im very passionate about. The irish curriculum should be modernised and there should be more of an emphasis on learning and understanding the language, rather than learning some off that you have no clue of what it is about. I think that if there was more of an emphasis on understanding the basics that there would be more of an interest in the language. In school we had a rule that we had to speak irish in class, this surprisingly didnt last long as not many knew how to string a sentence together. curriculum needs to be changed!

OH man I remember that irish thing in primary school. I edited the post you quoted. Check back about the C and B thing