Frontline - 07/02

MagicMarker

There's so many places to put this thread, I thought I may as well put it here.

Anyone watching? Have to say Michael Noonan is coming across very well, Joan Burton is very annoying and hopefully the nation can see just how retarded Sinn Fein's economic policy really is.

bleg

Noonan seems like he knows the wider European lay of the land alright.

Sir Oxman

Paused it to pop on here.


I don't think Burton is annoying, she's putting her policies across very well IMO.
Big improvement!

gandalf

Is it just me or was Brian Lenihan just short of humping Michael Noonans leg during the Frontline tonight. My god FF are really playing the tainting FG by friendship card all the time now. It's so bad that even they realise how toxic they are

Pearse Doherty was out of his depth again and Joan Burton should really be gagged because everytime she opens her mouth Labour loses another couple of percentages.

wolfpawnat

Doherty is nothing compared to Caoimhghín ó Caoláin. He is far better spoken and is more educated on the Irish economy.

Burton as usual made herself look like a rude cow by interrupting everyone, I think Labour need a new finance spokesperson, she is doing them more harm than good!

The Volt

Thought Burton handled herself well tonight. Unfortunately she's started a few weeks too late. Pierce Doherty has no understanding of economics. That much is clear.

Kristopherus

Well it showed that Sinn Fein's policy is hogwash. Joanie was very good IMO. Lennie was somewhat subdued. Looked weary of it all.Noonan was the best by a long shot . And the economist really put it all in a nutshell that could be understood by the ordinary punter.

pragmatic1

Pearse was well out of his depth. All shouty with no substance.

gizmo555

wolfpawnat wrote: »

Burton as usual made herself look like a rude cow by interrupting everyone, I think Labour need a new finance spokesperson, she is doing them more harm than good!

Never thought I'd sympathise with Brian Cowen on anything, but the more I see of Burton in this election campaign, the more I think he was justified in pleading with Gilmore to "rein her in" in the Dáil last November.

Then, as with Vincent Browne recently, Burton claimed Cowen was being sexist.

Actually, Joan, remonstrating with you for your pig-ignorant, loudmouthed debating tactics is nothing to do with your gender.

P. Breathnach

Herself and I watched it together. We agreed that Pat Kenny and Tony Foley were the clear winners, with Noonan coming in third by short head from Lenihan and Burton, with Doherty a distant also-ran.

Nehaxak

It would help if the plank actually let Doherty speak rather than interrupting him all the time and cutting him short at every opportunity. Childish carry-on in fairness and as usual, the establishment parties get off very lightly with the questioning and I've yet to hear ANY presenter to question FG, FF or even Labour on the actual substance on their plans - all we ever get is headlines and soundbites. All we ever get in regards SF is childish shouting down from presenters in regards "Burning the bondholders !!! Jesus Christ are you mad, how will I sustain my own wealthy lifestyle off the back of everyone else if you do that !!!"

I noticed Plank Kenny showing off his lovely expensive watch (was it a Breitling or a Rolex ?) to the camera's at every opportunity too, glad to see the public's extremely expensive license fee money is well spent continuing to pay his disgusting wages.

Why has not a single member of the broadcast media asked the question of FG in particular in regards their plans for making 30,000+ unemployed from the PS ? Or of all of those directly and indirectly made unemployed from the 145 Quango's they're intending to abolish ? What about those from FÁS and the HSE who will be made unemployed when FG shut them down ?
It's an absolute disgrace FG have not been questioned and pushed for answers as to their plans for all those people they're going to just throw on the dole. Or what's their plans on how they'll deal with the the continued debt owed even if they do manage to get a percent or two knocked off the interest rate paid back on the loans ?

It's a set-up, the whole thing is a managed affair to suit an agenda of one way or the other keeping the status quo intact and pushing the idea of FF, FG or even Labour now being the only option in government that should be considered by the wider Irish public. Seriously, apart from hardened supporters of either FF or FG, not a single person in this country honestly believes there's any difference at all between the two parties, with even FF now publicly nipping at the heels of FG with pretty obvious hints they'd like to be in government with them :rolleyes:

Joan Burton is a feckin' joke too, has she ever once, ever, actually answered a question asked of her with an actual substantive answer ?
I find it very hard to take anything she says serious at the best of times anyway with her big mad looking smiley head but come on, at least answer a question for once with anything other than the usual crap that even Apré Match captured so well in their skit.

Why they even have the gaul to allow Lenihan on our screens is beyond me, and then to molly coddle any question asked of him, free reign to speak without any interruptions to peddle his filthy lies - you'd almost believe RTÉ were in absolute cahoots with FF - oh wait...

More ratings for RTÉ, more people hoodwinked, democracy loses out once again to a disgraced, inept, biased, self serving media presented by a plank paid close to half a million a year. Good job lads, well done.

Chucky the tree

Nehaxak wrote: »

Why has not a single member of the broadcast media asked the question of FG in particular in regards their plans for making 30,000+ unemployed from the PS ? Or of all of those directly and indirectly made unemployed from the 145 Quango's they're intending to abolish ? What about those from FÁS and the HSE who will be made unemployed when FG shut them down ?
It's an absolute disgrace FG have not been questioned and pushed for answers as to their plans for all those people they're going to just throw on the dole.

Why do you want to ask them about it? It seems a pretty sound plan really and is something that needs to happen unless your living in some Sinn Fein induced fantasy world.

Nehaxak

Chucky the tree wrote: »

Why do you want to ask them about it?

Why should I not want to ask them about it ? :rolleyes:

Chucky the tree

Nehaxak wrote: »

Why should I not want to ask them about it ? :rolleyes:

Okay, I'll go one better. What questions are you going to ask?

johngalway

Nehaxak wrote: »

Why has not a single member of the broadcast media asked the question of FG in particular in regards their plans for making 30,000+ unemployed from the PS ? Or of all of those directly and indirectly made unemployed from the 145 Quango's they're intending to abolish ? What about those from FÁS and the HSE who will be made unemployed when FG shut them down ?
It's an absolute disgrace FG have not been questioned and pushed for answers as to their plans for all those people they're going to just throw on the dole. Or what's their plans on how they'll deal with the the continued debt owed even if they do manage to get a percent or two knocked off the interest rate paid back on the loans ?

Why has not a single member of the broadcast media asked the question of SF in particular in regards to how they intend to pay for their fairylandnomics plan for Ireland?

Oh. That's right. They have. And SF, consistently, fall so far short of answering the question they actually end up farther away from the question than when they started :rolleyes:

Nehaxak

Chucky the tree wrote: »

Okay, I'll go one better. What questions are you going to ask?

Typical. You ask me a question in relation to questions I wanted asked of FG by the broadcast media, in regards their plans, which I stated in my post, then asked me in your reply here what it was I wanted to ask. So you either didn't read my post at all or just replied ad-lib when you noticed my speaking in support of Doherty.
I'd speak out in support of Enda Kenny too if it were him given the same treatment, if it makes you feel any better.

I don't want an answer from a FG supporter/voter on here - I want an answer on live TV from a FG candidate, so the whole country can listen to them telling us all there are no plans and all those people will just be thrown on the dole to join the ever increasing dole queue's. Won't get FG any votes though, in fact, I'd guess FG will lose an awful lot of votes over it, and hence why the questions are never asked by the broadcast media - That is not fairness and that is an affront to democracy.

Or call my bluff and lets have a FG candidate go into detail on live TV with their plans for all the people they will be making unemployed. I'd also like an approx figure on the amount of people intended to be made unemployed by FG policies just in relation to the closing of FÁS, The HSE, the 145 Quango's and all those directly and indirectly related to same, I figure it's at least 250,000 myself, if not an awful lot more.

Chucky the tree

The 30,000 will be made up of jobs from the HSE, FAS and the Quangos. I've no idea where you are getting 250,000. Do you think when they close the HSE that they wont replace it and have no hospitals open? They are closing the HSE and implementing a different system.

johngalway

Nehaxak wrote: »

Fixed your post for you there.

Thanks, but there was no need. SF have been asked that question numerous times, none of their representatives have ever answered the question. They waffle on about what they'll do "this" year, they waffle on about "burning the bondholders"... Then when they have to be reminded what the question actually was - since they've just been too busy spouting their soundbite - they revert to ignoring the question and start blaming or accusing someone else.

Lets cut to the chase. SF don't have an economic policy, because SF don't do economics. They haven't got the first notion about the word.

I can go out tomorrow and get a loan for a few thousand Euro, I can draw down some of that loan and put it with my meagre savings and blow the lot. Then, when a repayment letter drops through my door I can tell the bank to PFO.

Yes, after doing that all will be well and rosy in JG's financial life, won't it. I won't ever face any repercussions for my actions. Money will always be available to me from that bank, won't it? La-la-la-la-la isn't life wonderful in Shinnerland.

That's SF economic policy for Ireland.

Dream on.

I remember hearing a sketch on radio about Brian Lenihan, asking him how he intended Ireland to pay back the IMF etc. The sketch had Lenny say "Sure maybe they'll forget we own them money".

Burn, baby, burn!

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

BehindTheScenes

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

Ah that would never happen because he would be doing himself out of a job as well.

Einhard

Nehaxak wrote: »

Typical. You ask me a question in relation to questions I wanted asked of FG by the broadcast media, in regards their plans, which I stated in my post, then asked me in your reply here what it was I wanted to ask....
I don't want an answer from a FG supporter/voter on here - I want an answer on live TV from a FG candidate...Or call my bluff and lets have a FG candidate go into detail on live TV with their plans for all the people they will be making unemployed. I'd also like an approx figure on the amount of people intended to be made unemployed by FG policies just in relation to the closing of FÁS, The HSE, the 145 Quango's and all those directly and indirectly related to same, I figure it's at least 250,000 myself, if not an awful lot more.

Umm, hate to break it to you, but they have been asked these questions. NUmerous times over the past few days. Perhaps your tv has been broken, or your signal has been affected in some way? I saw James O'Reilly explain yesterday how the HSE would lose 8000 further adminsitrative staff over four years- 1500 natural wastage pa, and then 2000 voluntary redundancy. You might pick holes in his answers, or criticise them, but there's no denying that he's been asked the questions.

In relation to the job losses in Fas and the quangos...so bloody what?! The government shouldn't be employing people that aren't needed. If SF's position is to keep as many people in the public service as possible for fear of a public backlash, then their economic policies are even more brainless than I had thought.

hallelujajordan

gandalf wrote: »

Is it just me or was Brian Lenihan just short of humping Michael Noonans leg during the Frontline tonight. My god FF are really playing the tainting FG by friendship card all the time now. It's so bad that even they realise how toxic they are

Pearse Doherty was out of his depth again and Joan Burton should really be gagged because everytime she opens her mouth Labour loses another couple of percentages.

There was a lot of love in both directions between Noonan and Lenihan last night . . At one stage Noonan made a comment about how FF had taken us "three quarters of the way there . . " . .

Posturing ahead of a FG minority govt IMO ...

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

wolfpawnat

gizmo555 wrote: »

Never thought I'd sympathise with Brian Cowen on anything, but the more I see of Burton in this election campaign, the more I think he was justified in pleading with Gilmore to "rein her in" in the Dáil last November.

Then, as with Vincent Browne recently, Burton claimed Cowen was being sexist.

Actually, Joan, remonstrating with you for your pig-ignorant, loudmouthed debating tactics is nothing to do with your gender.

She is, and she is harming the party!

Pete_Cavan

Nehaxak wrote: »

It would help if the plank actually let Doherty speak rather than interrupting him all the time and cutting him short at every opportunity.

It would help if Doherty actually answered the question directly or just admitted he has no clue what he is talking about instead of chanting "We will burn the bondholders" over and over regardless of whether it was relevant to the question asked. I presume Noonan was referring to Doherty with the arsonist comment.

dmaxontour

The main thing that struck me last night was that Pat Kenny is a terrible presenter.
He kept on talking over people when he had asked them a question, especially Pierce Doherty and Joan Bruton.
Let the people answer, and if they hang themsleves so be it. Or if they distinguish themselves, so be that too.
I want to hear what the party representatives have to say for themselves, and judge them accordingly. It helps me make a decision of who to vote for. last night was a waste of time.

Nehaxak

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

It would help if Doherty actually answered the question directly or just admitted he has no clue what he is talking about instead of chanting "We will burn the bondholders" over and over regardless of whether it was relevant to the question asked.

He's never allowed answer, presenters want quick one liner flippant headline grabbing responses because that's what they're used too from FG, FF and in most case now Labour too. It's not all about burning bondholders and everyone knows that, but it suits FF, FG and Labour to push that case for the fear of SF getting a proper uninterrupted chance to explain their policies in full. Any time SF even attempt to hit on the point about separating sovereign debt, that's it, interruption time, shout them down, don't let them get the chance to get the rest of their points across.

I presume Noonan was referring to Doherty with the arsonist comment.

Yeah, I thought that was hilariously childish and typical rhetoric.

Personally I believe FF, FG and Labour don't want to burn the bondholders, not out of a lack of want or need to do so, but because they're scared to do so as they know they're not strong enough to face down what amounts to economic terrorism being thrown against Ireland.

Which to me is blatant double standards and hypocritical, always shouting down SF in regards alleged links to terrorism yet content to put up with economic terrorism being levelled against our country. Sssh lads, don't rock the boat too much, we've too much to lose here for the wealthy elite and the few of us wedged so far up their arse.

As the fickle and easily led astray Irish public have shown in the past by voting FF in the last election, they now will do exactly the same by voting in FG, who are no different other than being more right wing and religiously conservative. Once again they will make their bed, lie in it and suffer the consequences, voting for a party whose leader is in hiding for fear of bollocking up all their hard work hoodwinking the public so far.
The media in this country, especially the broadcast media, are an absolute total and utter disgrace and bring shame upon even the use of the term journalism, but hey, if that's what people want, they're welcome to it, bread and circuses.

P. Breathnach

dmaxontour wrote: »

The main thing that struck me last night was that Pat Kenny is a terrible presenter.
He kept on talking over people when he had asked them a question, especially Pierce Doherty and Joan Bruton....

The pattern was not quite as you describe it: he butted in to challenge when people did not answer the question asked. The more a person strayed, the more he or she was challenged.

dmaxontour

P. Breathnach wrote: »

The pattern was not quite as you describe it: he butted in to challenge when people did not answer the question asked. The more a person strayed, the more he or she was challenged.

But you've got to give people the opportunity to answer properly and that isn't always possible to do in a quick snappy sound bite which is what I think PK was looking for. Sometimes and answer requires context.

I'd like to see a real debate. Like one where they let the party members state their case, each in turn, then open the floor to questions. A bit like the BBC's Question Time.

Let people answer and do themselves justice and answer they way they want. They have the right to represent themselves and more importantly, we have the need to see how they do that. Pat Kenny fupped that up imho.

johngalway

dmaxontour wrote: »

But you've got to give people the opportunity to answer properly and that isn't always possible to do in a quick snappy sound bite which is what I think PK was looking for. Sometimes and answer requires context.

Most working people are living the context. It's a simple question, how does SF propose to pay for year two, three, four in Government. Where do they propose to raise the billions this country needs, but doesn't have, to function at any level after they "burn the bond holders" and "tell the IMF/EU" to go home while also not repaying the money already borrowed. The next Shinner in the meejia that starts that answer off with "The Pension Reserve..." deserves a slap. PRF will be gone. Cuts will have been reversed, but EU/IMF money will be sent back. Borrow from the bondholders you've just burnt? The markets will be looking for Irelands heart on a plate, and SF think they can waltz in to them and get favorable terms after all that foolery?

None of the above are possible. So where? It doesn't require context, it requires an answer! Who from? What organization? What country? Who's signature is going to be on these mystery billions no one else knows about?

Spudmonkey

dmaxontour wrote: »

But you've got to give people the opportunity to answer properly and that isn't always possible to do in a quick snappy sound bite which is what I think PK was looking for. Sometimes and answer requires context.

That is the problem, they were giving soundbites which Pat didn't want. That's why he was interrupting.

Pete_Cavan

Nehaxak wrote: »

He's never allowed answer, presenters want quick one liner flippant headline grabbing responses because that's what they're used too from FG, FF and in most case now Labour too. It's not all about burning bondholders and everyone knows that, but it suits FF, FG and Labour to push that case for the fear of SF getting a proper uninterrupted chance to explain their policies in full. Any time SF even attempt to hit on the point about separating sovereign debt, that's it, interruption time, shout them down, don't let them get the chance to get the rest of their points across.

Noonan spoke calmly and quietly on all issues and answered the questions which were put to him directly leaving little chance for any to interrupt. The rest of the panel listened intently when he spoke because he clearly had a good understanding of the issues and best practice internationally. When you know what you are talking about you dont need to shout to get your point across (Pearse and Joan should have been talking notes).

SF rely on "quick one liner flippant headline grabbing responses". Doherty was beating the same drum all night. He started talking about burning the bondholders before that issue was raised and then kept harping back to it saying "you didnt let me finish the last time". He was clearly unable to talk on any other issue and kept throwing out phrases like "burn the bondholders" and "separating sovereign debt" even when they were irrelevant to the question asked of him.

eoinbn

dmaxontour wrote: »

The main thing that struck me last night was that Pat Kenny is a terrible presenter.
He kept on talking over people when he had asked them a question, especially Pierce Doherty and Joan Bruton.
Let the people answer, and if they hang themsleves so be it. Or if they distinguish themselves, so be that too.
I want to hear what the party representatives have to say for themselves, and judge them accordingly. It helps me make a decision of who to vote for. last night was a waste of time.

Completely disagree with that. Politicians make a career out of not answering questions. Doherty was asked a very simple question last night-"would you burn the bondholders that invested after the bank guarantee, yes or no" and then he starts a speech about how gamblers that invested in banks shouldn't be bailed out(which i agree with) but we should never default on sovereign debt. So he starts out by saying yes we would burn them, but in the end he says no in a roundabout way. Now the reason that he didn't want to give a straight answer to a straight question is because SF's campaign is based around playing tough- tough on the IMF/EU and tough on bondholders(oh except for the ones that are guaranteed...).

There is also the issue that we, the Irish people, are very much central in our politics hence the left believes it would be better off not to tell us what they have planned as we might not like the sound of it, but once we see it in action we will love it!

Can'tseeme

Agree with what's been said. Pat Kenny did little to question the points made by Nonnan and Lenihan but spent alot of time on Doherty and SF policy. SF may be right or wrong and so might FF, FG and Lab. Ireland is in an economic mess, imo Paqt Kenny's job should be to thoroughly question all the parties the same on their economics. Especially those likely to be in government next time round.

dmaxontour

He was saying something about separating Sovreign and private debts that I never got to hear the finish of. It was frustrating to watch.

In regard to context (earlier poster) I am referring to the context of their economic policy, not the context of the situation we are living in in Ireland now.

Many voters know very little about who or what they are voting for, being led by spin and headlines for the greater part, so programmes like this have an important role to play in "outing" the details of the parties' policies.
I don't think Frontline or Pat Kenny did a very good job of that last night, at least in the second half which is all I saw. But other people think it did and rate Pat Kenny, which is fair enough.

Pete_Cavan

Can'tseeme wrote: »

Agree with what's been said. Pat Kenny did little to question the points made by Nonnan and Lenihan but spent alot of time on Doherty and SF policy. SF may be right or wrong and so might FF, FG and Lab. Ireland is in an economic mess, imo Paqt Kenny's job should be to thoroughly question all the parties the same on their economics. Especially those likely to be in government next time round.

The difference was Noonan answered the questions asked of him in a concise manner and stuck to the point. Doherty kept banging on with the same crap whether it was relevant to the question asked or not and then complained when interrupted. He clearly couldnt answer the questions asked of him and yet made out like he wasnt being allowed to talk despite the fact he was going off on a tangent. If he answered the question he would have been allowed to talk. The man is a clown.

P. Breathnach

dmaxontour wrote: »

But you've got to give people the opportunity to answer properly and that isn't always possible to do in a quick snappy sound bite which is what I think PK was looking for. Sometimes and answer requires context.

PK didn't go in too fast. People were allowed a paragraph's worth to show if they were addressing the question or not.

I'd like to see a real debate. Like one where they let the party members state their case, each in turn, then open the floor to questions. A bit like the BBC's Question Time.

That's not the format.

Let people answer and do themselves justice and answer they way they want.

I'm fed up with politicians doing that, because unless they are checked, they simply dish out prepared pieces which do not fit into the line of discussion. I thought Joan Burton was particularly culpable in that last night.

They have the right to represent themselves and more importantly, we have the need to see how they do that. Pat Kenny fupped that up imho.

I'm not a big fan of The Frontline, mainly because I don't like the format. I thought that it worked better than usual last night, in part because audience participation was reduced.

dmaxontour

P. Breathnach wrote: »

PK didn't go in too fast. People were allowed a paragraph's worth to show if they were addressing the question or not.

Fair enough. I must have missed that part.


That's not the format.

Bit I'd like it. ;-)

I'm fed up with politicians doing that, because unless they are checked, they simply dish out prepared pieces which do not fit into the line of discussion. I thought Joan Burton was particularly culpable in that last night.

I totally agree they need to be checked and you pretty much never see them getting that here, but you need to hear what they say first and then rip them to pieces, or cross examine them.

I'm not a big fan of The Frontline, mainly because I don't like the format. I thought that it worked better than usual last night, in part because audience participation was reduced.

That was better? Glad I'm not a regular viewer. Back to Dexter for me.

(I don't know how to multi quote so my responses are in the text above.)

Can'tseeme

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

The difference was Noonan answered the questions asked of him in a concise manner and stuck to the point. Doherty kept banging on with the same crap whether it was relevant to the question asked or not and then complained when interrupted. He clearly couldnt answer the questions asked of him and yet made out like he wasnt being allowed to talk despite the fact he was going off on a tangent. If he answered the question he would have been allowed to talk. The man is a clown.

Noonan was allowed to answer in a clear and concise manner, there should have been more counter questioning from Kenny. This man most likely will be the finance minister by the end of the month.

LordSutch

Can'tseeme wrote: »

Noonan was allowed to answer in a clear and concise manner, there should have been more counter questioning from Kenny.

Indeed, I too thought Noonan spoke in a direct & clear manner, so did Lenihan & Joan Burton (to an extent), but Pearse rambled, he was not at all clear in his answers, the financial expert poo pooed the SF 'burn the bond holders' & stuff the EMF talk, and Pearse was clearly shown to be out of his depth, meanwhile back in the real world, FG/Labour and/or the Independents will have to make some kind of coalition to run this country, and Sinn Fein can snipe from the sidelines for another four or five years.

The thing that stays in my mind from last night programme was Lenihan's admittance (several times) that FF will not be re-elected.

liammur

bleg wrote: »

Noonan seems like he knows the wider European lay of the land alright.

Yes, it's a shame Noonan didn't wint the '02 election. We'd be living in a different country today