IS THE BLACK BELT DEAD

crosstrainer1

FOR YEARS PEOPLE HAVE TRAINED IN MARTIAL ARTS GOING FROM GRADE TO GRADE AND GAINING A BLACK BELT AS A MARK OF THERE ACHIVEMENT.
NOW IT SEEMS THAT YOU DONT NEED ANY TEACHING QUILIFICATIONS TO OPEN A CLUB OR FIRST AID AND SO ON.
ONE KICKBOXING ACCOCIATION IS HANDING OUT PUBLIC LIABILITY INSURANCE TO A CLUB WITH NO QUALIFIED INSTRUCTOR AND WITH THERE CERTIFICATE PROUDLY DISPLAYED .ALL IT SEEM YOU NEED TO BE A MARTIAL ARTS CLUB IS A FEW BAGS AND MATS.

Doug Cartel

Calm down, you're going to give yourself skin failure.

Not all martial arts use the black belt system, and the relative meaning of a black belt varies from art to art. Even within well established and well regulated martial arts the meaning of the black belt varies form country to country.

You might not recognise someone's qualification, but equally they might not recognise yours. Learn to live with it.

CaseyRyback

I think a lot of the status attached to the black belt has been undermined by mcdojo karate clubs and MMA has blown a lot of the BS practices out of the water. In saying that I think having a black belt in certain styles still carries a lot of weight, namely Judo and BJJ.

Gavin Mullholland talks a lot of sense on the subject in general, and if you haven't read his Four Shades of Black I'd recommend it.

My own view is that the practitioner is more important than the belt and I tend to look at the ability of the students in a club rather than the belts.

illeagles_mcc

belts are for holding your pants up

dunkamania

also for whipping ppl

Killme00

Caveat Emptor

Cogito egro vis a vis, boo hoo

Sid_Justice

illeagles_mcc wrote: »

belts are for holding your pants up

nobody uses a belt to hold their pants up in martial arts. Belts are there to keep your jacket closed.

arybvtcw0eolkf

I know a few blackbelts who have died.

Charlie3dan

I think it's a fair comment. Some arts have maintained the status of a black belt better than others but in general the value of a black belt has been diluted.
I still agree with the belt system but I think belts should only be awarded on ability and not on dedication or effort etc.

People who don't use the belt system all try to validate their experience in some other way (the example that always cracks me up is the Self Defence instructor who has been in x number of knife fights and has the scars to prove it).

Regardless though, it's always going to be a case of trying things for yourself and finding people who you think are the real deal. Regardless of what art, system, grade, rank number of knife fights or whatever, it all comes down to the individual.

antybots

It is irritating to see a club started by someone who you don't rate or who doesn't have any qualifications, but they won't last long if they are not producing good practitioners. As a previous poster said, black belt means different things to different styles. I've spent years doing TKD and in my association being a black belt means that you are expected to help run your school, do courses and sit on committees in your association, which ultimately leaves very little time for your own training.

On the other hand, when I'm doing Muay Thai I just turn up and train. No belts, no rank, no expectations, just good hard training with qualified instructors.

So to me it's more about being able to teach effectively rather than the grade of the instructor. For example, a blue belt who is a good teacher could produce blue belts a lot better than a crap black belt teacher can.

yomchi

crosstrainer1 wrote: »

NOW IT SEEMS THAT YOU DONT NEED ANY TEACHING QUILIFICATIONS TO OPEN A CLUB OR FIRST AID AND SO ON.

It's always been this way, AND there is NO teaching qualification associated with the martial arts, none recognised. What there are, are levels within the coaching Ireland programme accredited by the ISC. However, very few are involved with this.

ONE KICKBOXING ACCOCIATION IS HANDING OUT PUBLIC LIABILITY INSURANCE TO A CLUB WITH NO QUALIFIED INSTRUCTOR

Well then thankfully they are covered for public liability

.ALL IT SEEM YOU NEED TO BE A MARTIAL ARTS CLUB IS A FEW BAGS AND MATS

And a toilet.

Tim_Murphy

yomchi wrote: »

It's always been this way, AND there is NO teaching qualification associated with the martial arts, none recognised. What there are, are levels within the coaching Ireland programme accredited by the ISC. However, very few are involved with this.

Got me a level 1. But again, those certs are obviously no guarantee that a person is a good coach.

OP,
They are very few martial arts (Judo and BJJ are the only two I can think of) where a black belt is any sort of guarantee that the wearer has some competence.

Doug Cartel

If comics have taught me anything, it's that getting a black belt in judo would make me a super hero.

yomchi

Tim_Murphy wrote: »

Got me a level 1. But again, those certs are obviously no guarantee that a person is a good coach.

Never said it did. Results will define whether a coach is good or not.

They are very few martial arts (Judo and BJJ are the only two I can think of) where a black belt is any sort of guarantee that the wearer has some competence.

I've a photo of you somewhere holding up some weights with a black belt, I think it was Mark's article of how unimportant the black belt is.

The black belt means jack in any martial art, it's the persons ability gained from hard training, experience and understanding. You can't put a colour on any of that, in fact some of the best athletes in the world today would scoff at the idea of belts to represent some sort of standard other than titles.

As a side thought, what would we be like if the Asians had have decided that the white belt was the highest rank.

pablohoney87

[QUOTE=yomchi;70534469
I've a photo of you somewhere holding up some weights with a black belt, I think it was Mark's article of how unimportant the black belt is.
[/QUOTE]
Could someone upload that?
Sounds like a good pic:)

yomchi

pablohoney87 wrote: »

Could someone upload that?
Sounds like a good pic:)

I'll try, but you have been warned. He's one ugly bastrd

Tim_Murphy

yomchi wrote: »

Never said it did. Results will define whether a coach is good or not.

Agree completely.

yomchi wrote: »

I've a photo of you somewhere holding up some weights with a black belt, I think it was Mark's article of how unimportant the black belt is.

Yep that's me. In fairness though I just came into Point some day, Mark said 'hold this' and took my picture. How was I meant to know we were making some kind of point or something.

Sempai

Training only really begins at Black Belt

Tim_Murphy

Sempai wrote: »

Training only really begins at Black Belt

Not if you train in an MA where the black belt really means something like in BJJ.

arybvtcw0eolkf

Sempai wrote: »

Training only really begins at Black Belt

And how does that one work?.

Charlie3dan

Stetson Muscular Diner wrote: »

And how does that one work?.

It’s a saying that’s used in karate (maybe other arts also) which basically means that a black belt standard only brings you to the level where your training in more complicated aspects of the art can begin. Essentially a black belt is a master of the basics but far from a master of the art.

Whether you buy into that or not, I think we can all agree that a black belt should still represent a very high standard in their art and that nobody’s training or learning would stop at black belt.

arybvtcw0eolkf

Charlie3dan wrote: »

It’s a saying that’s used in karate (maybe other arts also) which basically means that a black belt standard only brings you to the level where your training in more complicated aspects of the art can begin. Essentially a black belt is a master of the basics but far from a master of the art.

Whether you buy into that or not, I think we can all agree that a black belt should still represent a very high standard in their art and that nobody’s training or learning would stop at black belt.

I know what he mean't but I was hoping he'd reply..

I think he's mixing up 'training and learning'.. Its often said that you only start to learn your art when you reach your BB.

I'd like the fella to tell me how, when after my (Judo) green belt I've to fight and win my belts, plus show a knowledge of the syllabus.. Same goes for brown belt and black belt.

I train pretty much casual year round, like most people I guess.. And casual to me is 3 times per week.. Leaving aside competitions, when I've a grading coming up I'm training twice daily (gym in the mornings) then Judo in the evening.

In between those times I'm studying Judo and getting my head together for the day I'll fight.

So whats going to change when I get my black belt?.

Will I suddenly realize I haven't really been training after all?.

Charlie3dan

Yes, I was hoping the thread wouldn't go down that road but alas.....

Sempai

Stetson Muscular Diner wrote: »

I know what he mean't but I was hoping he'd reply..

I think he's mixing up 'training and learning'.. Its often said that you only start to learn your art when you reach your BB.

I'd like the fella to tell me how, when after my (Judo) green belt I've to fight and win my belts, plus show a knowledge of the syllabus.. Same goes for brown belt and black belt.

I train pretty much casual year round, like most people I guess.. And casual to me is 3 times per week.. Leaving aside competitions, when I've a grading coming up I'm training twice daily (gym in the mornings) then Judo in the evening.

In between those times I'm studying Judo and getting my head together for the day I'll fight.

So whats going to change when I get my black belt?.

Will I suddenly realize I haven't really been training after all?.

What I meant was what Charlie3dan was saying, you master the basics, but when you get your black belt, you're expected to push yourself even more, both at training and in learning advanced techniques. that's just my opinion as I only train in one discipline so it's probably different with MMA.

arybvtcw0eolkf

Sempai wrote: »

What I meant was what Charlie3dan was saying, you master the basics, but when you get your black belt, you're expected to push yourself even more, both at training and in learning advanced techniques. that's just my opinion as I only train in one discipline so it's probably different with MMA.

I know what your saying, but in my experience most people who'd reached their BB were happy enough to hang in there, sit back and ease off a little.

I think some people believe on reaching BB your coming out of your novice stages and there's when you learn your art - tbh I'm not sure thats even true in most cases.

Btw there are no belt systems in MMA.

Sid_Justice

"training begins at black belt" is the kind of token gesture most traditional martial artists make to allude to some kind of self-humility. the depth you want to delve to in a martial art has nothing to do with belt colour. getting to black belt in bjj requires 1000s of hours of training and insight, getting to be a champion black belt amongst blackbelt requires a whole other level of mental and time investment.

how many guys in karate etc. get a black belt and then stand in the front of the class counting 1-10 in japanese for 30 years. is that their idea of post-blackbelt-development?

Doug Cartel

I have a theory about the whole "real learning/training only begins at black belt" thing.

When the kyu/dan system was first invented it was used so you could have students of different abilities train together in the same class. There was only three colours: white, brown and black - beginner, intermediate and advanced.

I've been told that the distinction between beginner and advanced was as much about the level of commitment they displayed as it was about their technical ability. The beginners were clueless, the intermediates would know what was going on, but you had to take it easy not to scare them off, and the advanced would stick it out through whatever you put them through. Therefore - back then - the real training really did only start at black belt.

Fast forward a few years and the meaning of the black belt begins to change. For one thing, more colours get added, but more importantly (and this bit is just my unresearched theory) people start to think of the black belt as being purely a measure of technical ability, like the menkyo licence you get in koryu arts. This is especially the case in BJJ, where having a black belt means you've learned all there is to teach and you're on your own from now on.

So now the meaning of a black belt has changed, but you still have the old saying that the real training begins at black belt. What was once a fairly straight forward saying along the lines of "once you demonstrate that you won't quit when we push you, we're really going to start pushing you", turns into some kind of false humility or even Gnostic scripture thing where once you have to learned all the outward teachings you then learn their mind-blowing hidden meanings.

TrollHammaren

This is probably just the cynic in me talking, but the whole "training starts at the black belt" sounds like one of those disposable sources of wisdom that sounded very profound back in the day, but just don't hold up in modern times.

I can also more or less agree with Doug Cartel, as I just don't think it's applicable to the modern day martial artist.

I see a black belt as akin to a college degree, in that there are definitely some bogus colleges about, and the degree they give you simply doesn't stand up to those from reputable sources. For instance, a guy around the corner from me, who will remain unnamed, set up a Shotokan Karate school, and he was more or less handing out belts to whoever could afford the grading and demonstrate a basic grasp of the movements, but he wasn't officially recognised by, nor was he adhering to, any recognised syllabus.

As others in this thread have already argued, most recognised schools will make sure you work damn hard for your black belt.

OLDMAN1

Sempai wrote: »

What I meant was what Charlie3dan was saying, you master the basics, but when you get your black belt, you're expected to push yourself even more, both at training and in learning advanced techniques. that's just my opinion as I only train in one discipline so it's probably different with MMA.

What are advanced techniques?

Doug Cartel

OLDMAN1 wrote: »

What are advanced techniques?

Looks like a good time to post this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P_T0WLoI6pk

ryoishin

The coloured belts come from French judo players, although a black was given after some time before the coloured belts.


Before the Meji restoration in Japan rank or licensing was given to a student for him to live up to the standard not so much to say he had reached a certain level. A way of a teacher showing a student that he was mature enough to be apart or represent the tradition he was learning.

Dermighty

Sid_Justice wrote: »

"training begins at black belt" is the kind of token gesture most traditional martial artists make to allude to some kind of self-humility. the depth you want to delve to in a martial art has nothing to do with belt colour. getting to black belt in bjj requires 1000s of hours of training and insight, getting to be a champion black belt amongst blackbelt requires a whole other level of mental and time investment.

how many guys in karate etc. get a black belt and then stand in the front of the class counting 1-10 in japanese for 30 years. is that their idea of post-blackbelt-development?

Not to mention the whole mountain of political bull**** that comes with getting a black belt in a traditional martial art. Was there not a thread recently where someone was wondering if they should ask their judo or TKD instructor if they could take part in some dance competition...




Training begins at black belt? That's an insult to people who train and are are not at black belt (for any reason)

arybvtcw0eolkf

Dermighty wrote: »

Not to mention the whole mountain of political bull**** that comes with getting a black belt in a traditional martial art. Was there not a thread recently where someone was wondering if they should ask their judo or TKD instructor if they could take part in some dance competition...




Training begins at black belt? That's an insult to people who train and are are not at black belt (for any reason)

Not politics in the BB at Judo - you fight and win your belts, and its really that simple.. Lose and you come back and try another day.

The dance thread was something to do with TKD, I didn't even follow the thread tbh.

Dermighty

Stetson Muscular Diner wrote: »

Not politics in the BB at Judo - you fight and win your belts, and its really that simple.. Lose and you come back and try another day.

The dance thread was something to do with TKD, I didn't even follow the thread tbh.

Yeah I didn't follow it either, I said my bit in it and didn't read it again.

Charlie3dan

The whole training begins at black belt is only a saying to let you know once you've achieved black belt you still have much more to learn.

You aren't meant to take it literally.... (Did we ever get that facepalm smiley on here?)

crosstrainer1

yomchi wrote: »

It's always been this way, AND there is NO teaching qualification associated with the martial arts, none recognised. What there are, are levels within the coaching Ireland programme accredited by the ISC. However, very few are involved with this.


Well then thankfully they are covered for public liability



And a toilet.

who are the isc and what do they do

Doug Cartel

Irish Sports Council. According to their website he Irish Sports Council aims to plan, lead and co-ordinate the sustainable development of competitive and recreational sport in Ireland.

crosstrainer1

Doug Cartel wrote: »

Calm down, you're going to give yourself skin failure.

Not all martial arts use the black belt system, and the relative meaning of a black belt varies from art to art. Even within well established and well regulated martial arts the meaning of the black belt varies form country to country.

You might not recognise someone's qualification, but equally they might not recognise yours. Learn to live with it.

ive been in martial arts for 25 years i know how the belt system works what im questioning is that anyone can know fone up certain martial arts associations with out proof of experience grade or safty training say they have a club and get insured. now ive seen brilliant black belt and **** ones ive seen black belts that have been directed the wrong way by instructors. ive seen red, yellow ,green belts know more than there instructors and i have seen people who have trained through there own disabilties to achive a black belt grade with hard work. in short ive met alot of peole who have put time and effort into there chosen art it seems now that the del boys of the martial arts world have a free passage that they dont have to do the hard work needed. but with these watered down bull **** associations offering this service i personal think its a joke

Doug Cartel

They're basically re-selling insurance policies. I doubt the insurance company give a fig if you have a black belt or not - it's just a meaningless cert to them.

grehan

was gonna post belts are for holding your trousers but i see iv already been beaten dang nab it!!!!! :P

CaseyRyback

Stetson Muscular Diner wrote: »

Not politics in the BB at Judo - you fight and win your belts

Depends where you are.

BJA changed their grading syllabus to a more technical one as some thought the old system was generating players who had only one or two techniques that got them through competitions. Competition victories have now been entirely removed from the grading criteria for kyu grades. Instead, the new syllabus has a much tamer requirement to "demonstrate randori".

http://www.britishjudo.org.uk/home/whytechnical.php

Doing Kickboxing since I was 5, I turn 18 next month. I'd say I was more interested in competing than grading for belts so I had a slow progression through the belts. Got my black in 2008 and I can say from experience that it felt like a huge achievement.
As I get a bit more cop on though I realise its a big responsibility to the club, black belts set the standard to achieve in a particular club so if the clubs black belts aren't up to scratch the lower belts will suffer.
I've never had people question my grade really but I wouldn't be particularly bothered if they did. I know what I achieved at that young age and only people who've done it can understand the feeling of a good few years hard work finally coming together.
So in short no I don't think the black belt is dead, I think there's simply a huge amount of black belts these days and some places give them out fairly handily but see how long they last without proper instructors in the future.

Sorry if this makes little sense at points, it's half eight and I'm just out the door to college. :P

antybots

I do think training has become softer over the years (in Karate and TKD anyway - I don't know enough about other arts to say). Back in the 60's and 70's most of the guys doing martial arts were hard as nails and they trained and fought hard. These days, with health and safety a major concern, training methods and tournament rules have really changed and training and competing has become less risky and, as a result, easier.

Perhaps as a consequence of this, there are many more people doing martial arts today and people are reaching black belt level who may not have done if the training and competing practices of the 60's and 70's were still being carried out.

I think this has diluted the quality of a lot of todays black belts, particularly in clubs where it's not that hard to get one. Add in the fact that MMA has exploded the myths surrounding what actually works in a fight and I think the black belt, while not dead, has certainly hit hard times.

Damo W

Doug Cartel wrote: »

I have a theory about the whole "real learning/training only begins at black belt" thing.

When the kyu/dan system was first invented it was used so you could have students of different abilities train together in the same class. There was only three colours: white, brown and black - beginner, intermediate and advanced.

I've been told that the distinction between beginner and advanced was as much about the level of commitment they displayed as it was about their technical ability. The beginners were clueless, the intermediates would know what was going on, but you had to take it easy not to scare them off, and the advanced would stick it out through whatever you put them through. Therefore - back then - the real training really did only start at black belt.

Fast forward a few years and the meaning of the black belt begins to change. For one thing, more colours get added, but more importantly (and this bit is just my unresearched theory) people start to think of the black belt as being purely a measure of technical ability, like the menkyo licence you get in koryu arts. This is especially the case in BJJ, where having a black belt means you've learned all there is to teach and you're on your own from now on.

So now the meaning of a black belt has changed, but you still have the old saying that the real training begins at black belt. What was once a fairly straight forward saying along the lines of "once you demonstrate that you won't quit when we push you, we're really going to start pushing you", turns into some kind of false humility or even Gnostic scripture thing where once you have to learned all the outward teachings you then learn their mind-blowing hidden meanings.

ryoishin wrote: »

The coloured belts come from French judo players, although a black was given after some time before the coloured belts.

Before the Meji restoration in Japan rank or licensing was given to a student for him to live up to the standard not so much to say he had reached a certain level. A way of a teacher showing a student that he was mature enough to be apart or represent the tradition he was learning.

The dan/kyu System
First established by Kano Jiroro [1860-1938], the dan/kyu system was actually based upon the handicap structure established by Honinbo Dosaku (1645-1702) as a professional ranking structure for the game of Go. Dosaku's dan ranking structure lasted until 1883 when the Hoensha (the leading organisation of Go at the time) replaced it with a kyu-ranking system. The kyu ranking structure was abandoned eleven years later due to complaints from professional players and the old system was reinstated. The accepted theory is that Judo pioneer, Kano Jigoro, established the dan/kyu ranking system based upon this history.

The First Dan Accreditations
Kano awarded the first Shodan ranks in 1883 to his two most senior students; Saito and Tomita. By 1886 the innovator required his yudansha to wear a black obi to hold their practice kimono closed. Kendo supported Kano's dan/kyu system by awarding their first shodan ranks in 1883. Later, in 1907, Kano formally introduced the official practice uniform and modern-style belt. The idea of different coloured belts, representing various kyu grades, was not developed until the mid-1930's by Kano's student, Kaiwashi Mikonosuke, who was sent to France to teach judo. By 1908 Kendo's curriculum had completely standardized as had their ranking structure. Based upon Kano's dan/kyu system it was successfully introduced into Tokyo's school system. By 1917, and with the support of the Monbusho [Ministry of Education] and the Dai Nippon Butokukai [DNBK], Kano's dan/kyu system [employing 10 dans and 6 kyus] became the national standard used throughout Japanese Budo.


The history of belts, can be located here,
http://www.e-budokai.com/articles/belts.htm
This is a good basic article.

In Don Cunningham's article, Meik Skoss mentions that the Samurai used different coloured flags when going into battle to represent opposing sides. When establishing some of the guidlines for Judo, Kano Jigoro [founder of judo] borrowed liberally from various sources; one was the different coloured ribbons used in swimming

[I remember reading that early swimming competitions did not split competitors into their respective categories but used to tie a ribbon around their waist to denote category.]

from which he came up with the idea for the black belt [kuro obi] and another was a board game called, "Go," from which came the dan/kyu system. During the early days of judo competition in Japan, Kano used the Samurai idea of opposing forces being identified by different coloured flags, and the simplicity of the swimmers ribbon concept, and came up with the idea of separating competitors by different coloured ribbons/belts, and judges using corresponding flags. Hence, the judo competitions became known as "Red & White Battles/Tournaments" or Kohaku-jiai [紅白試合 or 紅白戦] in Japanese. Someone who wore a Red & White panel belt symbolized a competitor who had been successful at winning many Red & White tournaments.

Much of the symbolism which exists in modern karate comes from Japanese [Budo] culture and the criteria set forth by the pre-war organization/Dai Nippon Butokukai. The belt system was amidst one of six criteria set forth during the late 1920's/early 1930's.

.