Shower dilemma - what to do?

ZV Yoda

Hi folks,
Before I call out a plumber, I was hoping to get some advice on options for installing electric showers in our house. Forgive me in advance if I get the terminology wrong, but I always get confused by the different types of showers. A couple of things to note:

• We have problems with hard water in our house & it plays havoc with kettles, showers, dishwashers etc.
• The water pressure isn’t great

We currently have 2 “electric” showers:
• One is a Redring (in our ensuite). It’s get used at least twice / day. This both heats & pumps the water (don’t remember the model number). It’s at least 6 years old & we’ve already had to replace the heating element. It’s on the blink again. Also installed / fitted in this ensuite is an old gravity fed non electric shower unit that never gets used since we got the Redring. This unit is just a mains fed shower head unit (fixed to the wall) with a control knob/dial fitted to the wall at about chest height.
• The other electric shower is in up the attic conversion. When we had the attic converted, the builder installed a water pump in the hot press to pump the water supply to the attic. This was because the storage tank in attic was too low to feed the attic taps/shower/loo by gravity. The attic shower is fairly new Triton t80XR (I think). This heats the water, but does not pump (doesn’t need to thanks to the pump in the hot press). This only get occasional use (once / twice / week). When the attic shower was installed, we also had a “cut out” device installed in the main fuse board – this prevents both electric showers from running at the same time & gives priority to the one that was switched on first.

Now for the questions(s). We now want to install an electric shower in our main bathroom. Our kids are getting old enough to shower themselves, so this will get a fair bit of use. Currently we just have mixer taps / hose connect to the bath.

1. Is it possible to take a water feed from the hot press pump to the main bathroom & install another Triton T80xr (or similar) in the main bathroom? If so, would we need to have a new 3-way cut out device installed in the fuse board?
2. Since we’ll soon need to replace the Redring shower, I’m also wondering could we tap into the same hot press pump feed & just replace the Redring with a Triton T80xr (or similar).
3. If a 3rd electric shower isn’t feasible (cost / practicality), then we could also consider taking the Triton out of the attic & installing it in the main bathroom. We could use the old gravity shower unit from the ensuite & put that in the attic. While it won’t heat the water, at least we’ll have good pressure from the hot water thanks to the hot press pump. Is this a better option all round?

Apologies for the long post, but wanted to cover everything up front.

Thanks in advance for any advice

ZV Yoda

Hi mods... just realised this is probably more suited to heating / plumbing forum (or electrical appliances?)

Can you move the to the most appropriate forum?

Thanks

Hell Toupee

If you decide to go with a new shower - B&Q have Triton t90xr on special offer at €218

cnocbui

Stop messing around with lots of electric showers. Get a decent Stuart Turner 3.0 bar negative head pump, have it installed in the hot press and connected so as to feed everything in the house except the kitchen sink cold, replace the electric showers with normal high pressure showers.

You can then enjoy civilised water pressure and flow rates from every tap from hence forth. You might need a bigger hot water cylinder but mine copes after I did this to our house.

ZV Yoda

Hmm... Interesting idea about dispensing with electric showers altogether. The only problem there is having an instant supply of hot water. We have natural gas central heating (and an electric immersion), but wouldn't it be less efficient to use them for heating the water?

I just checked the pump in the hot press. I can't see a manufacturer's name, but I can see a model number "M330N". There's a sticker on the pump that says "Modern Plant Ltd, Cork, Dublin, Belfast". The faceplate says "max pressure 4 bar". A quick Google leads me to think the pump is a Stuart Turner 4 bar pump. There is also a Zilmet expansion vessel connected to the pump with a sticker saying "set to 0.9 bar".

cnocbui

That looks like it is a ST alright: http://www.theshowerdoctors.ie/pumps

If its the same as the one on that page then you would need a second one for the cold water. Mine has a motor with a pump housing on each end so does both hot and cold. The expansion vessle is needed to make the pump negative head. Normally a pump switches on when it is triggered by flow switches which sense the water begin to flow due to gravity when a tap is opened. having outlets upstairs means there is no flow to trigger the switch so the expansion vessel pressurises the water in the system slightly after you shut a tap. When you then open a tap upstairs the water will start to flow because it is under pressure so the flow switch can be triggered.

If your HW cylinder is insulated I doubt there would be much if any difference in efficiency in terms of what heat source is used to heat the water. I have kerosene fueled central heating with an electric immersion in the HW cylinder, so a similar setup.

I have a digital time switch for the immersion heater which is programmed to heat the cylinder just prior to the times it is required. The immersion heaters have their own thermostat so if the water is already hot it won't heat even if the timer is telling it it should.

When I bought my house there was an electric shower in the en-suite. I removed it and ran two runs 18mm qualpex through the attic and insulated them, then fitted Hans Grohe fittings. The result is a high flow rate at good pressure. Don't need the tap maxed out.

There are other benefits of pressurising the whole system in that you can then use Europen mixer taps and stuff that wouldn't work with a gravity fed system. Baths sinks and toilets can fill very rapidly.

Before I installed the pump I could start the bath filling for the kids and then go off and read a chapter or two of a book before coming back and turning off the taps. Almost as bad for filling the kitchen sink for the washing up.

ZV Yoda

Thanks for that informative post cnocbui...

I've just taken a proper look at the pump. It's a Stuart Turner Monsoon. It's this exact model from what I can see:
http://www.stuart-turner.co.uk/products/monsoon/s40-bar-twin

Looks like this could pump hot & cold water all over the house, so we could do as you suggested. Anything else we'd need to consider?

stapeler

My water has a lot of lime etc so I decided to run two showers on a StuartTurner 3bar pump. This also feeds by bathroom taps/toilet ect and the pressure can be excessive so I have a switch on entry to both bathrooms to turn it off when not needed, also at night you dont want to be listening to the pump buzzing when somebody flushes a toilet.
I kept a triton T80(12 years old) in one bathroom as it's handy for instant hot water when kids come in from playing sports etc.

Joey the lips

ZV Yoda wrote: »

1. Is it possible to take a water feed from the hot press pump to the main bathroom & install another Triton T80xr (or similar) in the main bathroom? If so, would we need to have a new 3-way cut out device installed in the fuse board?
You will need to speak to an elestrician on this.I have never come across a house in your situation but i am fairly confident your answer is going to be No.
2. Since we’ll soon need to replace the Redring shower, I’m also wondering could we tap into the same hot press pump feed & just replace the Redring with a Triton T80xr (or similar). The red ring shower is a T90 equiv its not pumped. it contains its own pump. Thats what i get from reading what you have written. This is the shower that is loading your circuit the most.

3. If a 3rd electric shower isn’t feasible (cost / practicality), then we could also consider taking the Triton out of the attic & installing it in the main bathroom. We could use the old gravity shower unit from the ensuite & put that in the attic. While it won’t heat the water, at least we’ll have good pressure from the hot water thanks to the hot press pump. Is this a better option all round? This is the best option imo however you will need a negative head pump for your attic shower. The pump for the triton may do if i know more about it.

Apologies for the long post, but wanted to cover everything up front.

Thanks in advance for any advice

ZV Yoda wrote: »

Thanks for that informative post cnocbui...

I've just taken a proper look at the pump. It's a Stuart Turner Monsoon. It's this exact model from what I can see:
http://www.stuart-turner.co.uk/products/monsoon/s40-bar-twin

Looks like this could pump hot & cold water all over the house, so we could do as you suggested. Anything else we'd need to consider?

This option will not suit your application. You will need to buy a negative head 3 bar pump and it will set you back around 700 euro. However it will then require you to have a permanent store of hot water which if you have electric showers fitted you wont need,

stapeler wrote: »

My water has a lot of lime etc so I decided to run two showers on a StuartTurner 3bar pump. This also feeds by bathroom taps/toilet ect and the pressure can be excessive so I have a switch on entry to both bathrooms to turn it off when not needed, also at night you dont want to be listening to the pump buzzing when somebody flushes a toilet.
I kept a triton T80(12 years old) in one bathroom as it's handy for instant hot water when kids come in from playing sports etc.

This is slightly different than the ops sitation but a good option. You can quiten that pump by sticking it to a tile and sticking the tile to the ground. Use silicone and stick it with blobs. They act as buffrs



Back to the op. Op you are in a unique situation.

You have a triton T80 in the attic. This is a mains fed shower. Your plumbers connected it to a pump. This should not really have been done but if its working than its fine.

You have a redring pumped electric shower down stairs becaues it gives you water on demand.

What i would do is move the electric T80 downstairs and put a shower valve in the attic shower.

Its the cheapest and simpleist option thats meets all your requirements.

As for the lime. The only way to prevent this is to fit a whole house filter. This costs around 700-1000 euro and then salt. I think its worth it but you might not.

ZV Yoda

Hi Joeythelips... I'm confused - I understood that I already have a 4 bar negative head pump installed to feed hot & cold water to the attic. Is this not suitable for feeding the other showers?

Joey the lips

ZV Yoda wrote: »

Hi Joeythelips... I'm confused - I understood that I already have a 4 bar negative head pump installed to feed hot & cold water to the attic. Is this not suitable for feeding the other showers?

Yes it would. Sorry. I missed the fact it was 4 bar negative. However you prob have the electric so you dont have to rely on stored,

You can prity much do what you want in your unique situation except add another electric shower.

cnocbui

ZV Yoda wrote: »

Thanks for that informative post cnocbui...

I've just taken a proper look at the pump. It's a Stuart Turner Monsoon. It's this exact model from what I can see:
http://www.stuart-turner.co.uk/products/monsoon/s40-bar-twin

Looks like this could pump hot & cold water all over the house, so we could do as you suggested. Anything else we'd need to consider?

Looks like you have got a fine pump that would do the whole house.

Apart from the points I mentioned, the toilet cistern valves might not be suited to the pressure, so I have heard. Mine seem to cope fine. One did leak a bit when I first installed the pump, but I removed some limescale and it has been fine since.

ZV Yoda

Thanks for all the advice...

I think the plan will be to run a pumped feed via the Stuart Turner into the main bathroom. We'll just install a thermostatic mixer shower in there. No messing around with the main fuse board / electric wiring that way. I'll connect a timer to the immersion to provide hot water.

We'll also run a pumped feed into the ensuite. We'll replace the pumped electric Redring with an electric Triton T90xr. Again, this means no real faffing around with electrics.

We'll just leave the T80xr as is up in the attic.

I'm off to ring some plumbers later this morning...

Joey the lips

Its always good to keep one shower that can produce water on demand especially if there is girls in the house..

trav

ZV Yoda wrote: »

Hmm... Interesting idea about dispensing with electric showers altogether. The only problem there is having an instant supply of hot water. We have natural gas central heating (and an electric immersion), but wouldn't it be less efficient to use them for heating the water?

I have the same setup (immersion/gas) and also installed a central 1.2bar pump which is fine in terms of pressure output. Electric showers trick you into thinking the flow is decent by providing very fine/misting shower heads - feels like high pressure, but very low volume. A proper pumped system is way better.

Anyway, I did have the problem of some leakage through toilet cisterns causing the pump to come on intermittently. Solved this by putting a switch for the pump outside the hot-press.

In order to find out which was cheapest between the immersion and gas I did some experiments and posted them on a web-page, here:

http://www.randomprojects.info/immersion/