Prospects for a Biology/Chem teacher

Dory353

Hi I'm interested in studying Science Education at UL - a course which ultimately qualifies you to teach JC Science, LC Biology, Ag Science and Chemistry OR Physics. I personally dislike Physics so would definitely be opting for the Chemistry option as I find it quite interesting and enjoyable. Basically I'm wondering what are the employment prospects like for such teachers?? Also to be honest I havent the faintest interest in teaching Ag Science - do you think schools would automatically put me in such a role with my degree? There's a new course in Maynooth without the Ag but then I would feel that I was really reducing future employment prospects by being one less subject off.. Any advice?! There's also a Physics/Chem one in UL rather than Biological Sciences, would that be the better subject combination?? Please HELP

rainbowtrout

Teaching prospects are not great at the moment anywhere. However...

I did that degree and am teaching 10 years, I did Biology, Chemistry, Ag Science. About two thirds of my class did. From my experience most people who went into the course without either physics or chemistry tended to find chemistry easier to grasp. People who did both for LC just tended to pick the one they liked the best. People who did one of them tended to opt for the one they did for LC, probably through familiarity rather than anything else.

Practically all schools offer Biology. Not all schools offer chemistry and physics. Sometimes it's only one of them, sometimes none. Your employment prospects are probably better having biology and either chem or phys rather than just chem and phys.

Funny you mention ag science like that. I had the exact same view when I started the degree, and I was not from a farm and did not know the first thing about farming. The job I got when I left college (and am still in) was advertised chemistry and physics but when I landed at the school, I was given ag science. And I thought 'Oh fcuk'. It was a steep learning curve the first year, but I got on ok. Ag science is now my main subject and I examine the practicals and correct the written exams in it. I've never taught biology since I left college and I have very little interest in doing so now. I've had chemistry a few times.

Ag Science as a subject is on the increase. Seven years ago only about 3000 people sat the paper, last year it was 6000 and more and more schools are taking it on every year. It's a very useful subject to have because only the UL degree and UCD Ag Science graduates are qualified in the subject.

You can't really argue with the timetable you're given in a school and you won't when you get one because there are so few jobs out there at the moment. At some stage many teachers end up teaching a subject they are qualified in but is not their favourite. And you can't really say 'I don't want to teach X subject' when you're qualified in it. If you won't do it there will be plenty behind you in the queue that will, qualified or not.

To be honest, I wouldn't be where I am today without ag science. Actually quite a number of people in my class are now teaching ag science. It's opened up a lot of doors.

Dory353

Thanks for the detailed and informative reply! Surprised to hear not all schools offer Chemistry and Physics in this day and age! I presumed there would be so many biology teachers because of the UL course, NUIM and the various Biology courses in St Angela's which can be taken with Home Ec/RE/Irish etc. Did you find the course at UL interesting and would you say it's intense? Also I was just wondering what were the prospects like for such teachers three or four years ago before the recession kicked in? Was it difficult back then? I'm fairly certain Science Education is where my interest lies but was very much torn between S.Ed and a BA in Languages degree to teach French & Spanish/German.

rainbowtrout

Dory353 wrote: »

Thanks for the detailed and informative reply! Surprised to hear not all schools offer Chemistry and Physics in this day and age! I presumed there would be so many biology teachers because of the UL course, NUIM and the various Biology courses in St Angela's which can be taken with Home Ec/RE/Irish etc. Did you find the course at UL interesting and would you say it's intense? Also I was just wondering what were the prospects like for such teachers three or four years ago before the recession kicked in? Was it difficult back then? I'm fairly certain Science Education is where my interest lies but was very much torn between S.Ed and a BA in Languages degree to teach French & Spanish/German.

That's quite funny. Way back when after science my other CAO options were a BA in French and German

Most schools won't let a class run without at least 8 opting for the subject in fifth year (that can vary from school to school). In small schools there just isn't enough demand for Physics and Chemistry so they don't offer them.

It's not just a case that there are a lot of Biology teachers. Anyone who has done a General Science degree can go on to do the PGDE in their subjects, that's the most common route, not just the specialised teaching courses.

Well job prospects were better 3 or 4 years ago. Our physics teacher went on maternity leave and we found it very hard to get a replacement for her. Ended up taking on a physics graduate from NUIG with no teaching experience. Couldn't get a qualified teacher. Things have changed a lot since then.

The course will keep you busy. You get a bit of everything in first year, Physics, Chemistry, Biology, Maths and Teaching. Then you drop Phys or Chem at the end of first year and just take one of them. The course then resembles something like : 3 Biology, 1 Chemistry, 1 Agriculture, 1 Teaching module per term. Teaching practice is second semester second year for 6 weeks and first semester fourth year for 10 weeks and you will have a huge workload during that time, but the course is completely manageable.

A final year student of the course has been posting in another thread the last few days, maybe you could ask them what it's currently like. I finished the degree in 2000 so some things will have changed.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056166802

Dory353

rainbowtrout wrote: »

That's quite funny. Way back when after science my other CAO options were a BA in French and German

Most schools won't let a class run without at least 8 opting for the subject in fifth year (that can vary from school to school). In small schools there just isn't enough demand for Physics and Chemistry so they don't offer them.

It's not just a case that there are a lot of Biology teachers. Anyone who has done a General Science degree can go on to do the PGDE in their subjects, that's the most common route, not just the specialised teaching courses.

Well job prospects were better 3 or 4 years ago. Our physics teacher went on maternity leave and we found it very hard to get a replacement for her. Ended up taking on a physics graduate from NUIG with no teaching experience. Couldn't get a qualified teacher. Things have changed a lot since then.

The course will keep you busy. You get a bit of everything in first year, Physics, Chemistry, Biology, Maths and Teaching. Then you drop Phys or Chem at the end of first year and just take one of them. The course then resembles something like : 3 Biology, 1 Chemistry, 1 Agriculture, 1 Teaching module per term. Teaching practice is second semester second year for 6 weeks and first semester fourth year for 10 weeks and you will have a huge workload during that time, but the course is completely manageable.

A final year student of the course has been posting in another thread the last few days, maybe you could ask them what it's currently like. I finished the degree in 2000 so some things will have changed.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056166802

OMG are you serious?! Are you glad you went with the Science option? I absolutely love languages but when I look back at my various French and Irish classes over my 5 years at school all I can think of is the 90% plus of the class who absolutely hated the subjects, complete lack of interest and the frustration of the teachers as a result. That's what slightly puts me off. A lot more people enjoy science! I wonder what things will be like in four years. Are there good opportunities abroad?

rainbowtrout

Dory353 wrote: »

OMG are you serious?! Are you glad you went with the Science option? I absolutely love languages but when I look back at my various French and Irish classes over my 5 years at school all I can think of is the 90% plus of the class who absolutely hated the subjects, complete lack of interest and the frustration of the teachers as a result. That's what slightly puts me off. A lot more people enjoy science! I wonder what things will be like in four years. Are there good opportunities abroad?

Yes, it was a good choice for me, while I love languages, science is more hands on.

I have no idea what the opportunities are like abroad, it seems easier to get work in teaching in the UK that here at the moment, and another friend of mine from the course taught in Sydney for four years with the qualification. Another girl from my course teaches in an English speaking school in Spain and another guy in an English speaking school in Switzerland. Those two have been teaching abroad for the last 10 years.

lellskells

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Teaching prospects are not great at the moment anywhere. However...

I did that degree and am teaching 10 years, I did Biology, Chemistry, Ag Science. About two thirds of my class did. From my experience most people who went into the course without either physics or chemistry tended to find chemistry easier to grasp. People who did both for LC just tended to pick the one they liked the best. People who did one of them tended to opt for the one they did for LC, probably through familiarity rather than anything else.

Practically all schools offer Biology. Not all schools offer chemistry and physics. Sometimes it's only one of them, sometimes none. Your employment prospects are probably better having biology and either chem or phys rather than just chem and phys.

Funny you mention ag science like that. I had the exact same view when I started the degree, and I was not from a farm and did not know the first thing about farming. The job I got when I left college (and am still in) was advertised chemistry and physics but when I landed at the school, I was given ag science. And I thought 'Oh fcuk'. It was a steep learning curve the first year, but I got on ok. Ag science is now my main subject and I examine the practicals and correct the written exams in it. I've never taught biology since I left college and I have very little interest in doing so now. I've had chemistry a few times.

Ag Science as a subject is on the increase. Seven years ago only about 3000 people sat the paper, last year it was 6000 and more and more schools are taking it on every year. It's a very useful subject to have because only the UL degree and UCD Ag Science graduates are qualified in the subject.

You can't really argue with the timetable you're given in a school and you won't when you get one because there are so few jobs out there at the moment. At some stage many teachers end up teaching a subject they are qualified in but is not their favourite. And you can't really say 'I don't want to teach X subject' when you're qualified in it. If you won't do it there will be plenty behind you in the queue that will, qualified or not.

To be honest, I wouldn't be where I am today without ag science. Actually quite a number of people in my class are now teaching ag science. It's opened up a lot of doors.

HI rainbowtrout, i have noticed that you often mention that there are no jobs in teachin and it has cast some doubt in my mind about doing the H dip. However this post has given me some hope, I have a degree and masters in Ag Science from UCD and have worked in scientific publishing for the past 11 years, hope to do the h dip this year (if I get it this year there is a small chance i can defer) or next . I agree with you that Ag science appears to be on the up again and while I am well aware that jobs are few and very far between, never mind the permenant ones, all I am interested in for a few years is subbin and some part time work (I have a flock of kids you see). Any positive words of wisdom or career advice would be welcome, I will be made redundant in the coming year so I can fund this h dip pretty easily, Biology and Ag science would be my subjects, am I mad? or should I go get another boring corporate job??

rainbowtrout

lellskells wrote: »

HI rainbowtrout, i have noticed that you often mention that there are no jobs in teachin and it has cast some doubt in my mind about doing the H dip. However this post has given me some hope, I have a degree and masters in Ag Science from UCD and have worked in scientific publishing for the past 11 years, hope to do the h dip this year (if I get it this year there is a small chance i can defer) or next . I agree with you that Ag science appears to be on the up again and while I am well aware that jobs are few and very far between, never mind the permenant ones, all I am interested in for a few years is subbin and some part time work (I have a flock of kids you see). Any positive words of wisdom or career advice would be welcome, I will be made redundant in the coming year so I can fund this h dip pretty easily, Biology and Ag science would be my subjects, am I mad? or should I go get another boring corporate job??

I haven't a clue to be honest. With the Croke Park Agreement any jobs that come up in schools have first to be offered to teachers who are being redeployed from other schools. That will cut down on the number of jobs available. However there will still be subbing work available. There seems to be some grassroots movement in ag science in the last year or two. We have a dip student with us this year doing ag science and she said there are 12 more like her on the dip in NUIG. I also know of a few in UCD doing the dip in ag science.

I would still say there are few teaching jobs out there but by the same token, the other ag science teacher in my school was out sick for four months this year and we could not get a qualified ag science sub. All the subs had biology but none had ag science. That could be the key to getting a science job in the next few years.

sunflower3

hope to do the h dip this year (if I get it this year there is a small chance i can defer) or next....

Hi
Just to let you know the H Dip is more than likely changing to a 2 year course in 2012 - so if you want to do it in one year, you should accept your place for this september.

lellskells

I had heard that but was hoping that was a bit more off, surely that would be more official now if it was 2012? I must look into that asap. Chances are I wont be able to defer,so my head is fairly mixed up now:( Oh and thats assuming I get it in the first place, I have 52 points and maybe professional experience as extra, who knows, only PAC

UnLuckyAgain

lellskells wrote: »

I had heard that but was hoping that was a bit more off, surely that would be more official now if it was 2012? I must look into that asap. Chances are I wont be able to defer,so my head is fairly mixed up now:( Oh and thats assuming I get it in the first place, I have 52 points and maybe professional experience as extra, who knows, only PAC

With 52 points you would be certainly top of any offer list..unless i'm missing something? NUIM was the highest demanding college (pointswise) at 45, the rest being 43. So if you definitely have 52 points, I wouldn't worry.

sjms

Just to encourage any potential Science teachers - Science is to be made compulsory by 2014, as stated in the programme for government.

http://www.asti.ie/fileadmin/user_upload/Documents/Programme_For_Government_Education.pdf


So maybe that will be a good thing. Science is not compulsory in most girls secondary schools.

Lord TSC

Wait, whats this about the PGDE becoming two years :S

Jesus, I'm trying to save up to help my bro do it in two years but it's going to be tough enough finding the money for one year as it is....

rainbowtrout

sjms wrote: »

Just to encourage any potential Science teachers - Science is to be made compulsory by 2014, as stated in the programme for government.

http://www.asti.ie/fileadmin/user_upload/Documents/Programme_For_Government_Education.pdf


So maybe that will be a good thing. Science is not compulsory in most girls secondary schools.

Do you have a statistic to back that up? I know of very few girls schools where it's not compulsory.

My own school in Limerick was one of them way back in the early 90s but I think that's changed now. We had a choice between Science and Home Economics :rolleyes:

According to the JC results for this year approximately 55000 students sat the Junior Cert.

http://www.examinations.ie/statistics/statistics_2010/JC_619_2010.pdf

English: 55446
CSPE: 54753
Science: 49446

I assume the discrepancy between English and CSPE is where you have adults returning to edcuation and sitting the core subjects therefore increasing the numbers in English. So if CSPE gives a fairly accurate figure as to the numbers doing the Junior Cert, there aren't that many schools that don't have science as a compulsory subject. It's compulsory in all VEC schools and while making it compulsory will probably create a few jobs it won't increase the numbers of students in schools so no extra jobs will be created. Instead hours will be shuffled among existing teachers and while science teachers will be taken on in some places other teachers may be let go.

Taking my old school as an example a teacher who taught JC Home Ec and LC Home Ec and Biology might find themselves with less JC Home Ec and more JC Science.

Miss Lockhart

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Do you have a statistic to back that up? I know of very few girls schools where it's not compulsory.

My own school in Limerick was one of them way back in the early 90s but I think that's changed now. We had a choice between Science and Home Economics :rolleyes:

According to the JC results for this year approximately 55000 students sat the Junior Cert.

http://www.examinations.ie/statistics/statistics_2010/JC_619_2010.pdf

English: 55446
CSPE: 54753
Science: 49446

I assume the discrepancy between English and CSPE is where you have adults returning to edcuation and sitting the core subjects therefore increasing the numbers in English. So if CSPE gives a fairly accurate figure as to the numbers doing the Junior Cert, there aren't that many schools that don't have science as a compulsory subject. It's compulsory in all VEC schools and while making it compulsory will probably create a few jobs it won't increase the numbers of students in schools so no extra jobs will be created. Instead hours will be shuffled among existing teachers and while science teachers will be taken on in some places other teachers may be let go.

Taking my old school as an example a teacher who taught JC Home Ec and LC Home Ec and Biology might find themselves with less JC Home Ec and more JC Science.

It's not compulsory in the VEC school I teach in. Students don't get to choose for themselves, however - some classes just aren't offered science.

seriouslysweet

Not compulsary in my school but we get told who does it and who does not, the more academic classes do it.

mrboswell

Dory353 wrote: »

Surprised to hear not all schools offer Chemistry and Physics in this day and age!

Prospects for Biology and science should be reasonable - at least compared with the other sciences.

I don't know the exact numbers but it seems as though for every one class of Chemistry and Physics there is 3 for Biology.

If the majority of students are choosing Biology, and considering cuts in teacher numbers, then if enough students do not opt for Chemistry and Physics schools may not be in a position to offer those subjects.

Miss Lockhart

That's exactly what has happened in my school mrboswell.

Due to retirements, subsequent shifting around of posts and the embargo on recruitment, we can no longer offer physics or chemistry.

mrboswell

Miss Lockhart wrote: »

That's exactly what has happened in my school mrboswell.

Due to retirements, subsequent shifting around of posts and the embargo on recruitment, we can no longer offer physics or chemistry.

We can expect it to happen in a lot more schools as well.

Uncertain future though - a lot of people don't consider a school as academic unless they offer hons. maths and the three science subjects.

There goes our plans for a knowledge economy!!

lellskells

sunflower3 wrote: »

hope to do the h dip this year (if I get it this year there is a small chance i can defer) or next....

Hi
Just to let you know the H Dip is more than likely changing to a 2 year course in 2012 - so if you want to do it in one year, you should accept your place for this september.

Checked with the Teaching Council, see reply:
The proposal to extend the PGDE to two years comes from two draft documents: The Teaching Council’s Draft Policy on the Continuum of Teacher Education and ‘Better Literacy and Numeracy for children and young People’ A Draft national Plan to Improve Literacy and Numeracy in Schools from the Department of Education & Skills

The indicative timeline is 2014/2015 for the extended PGDEs but it must be noted that both of these documents are at ‘draft’ stage so this is just a proposal at this stage

solerina

In our school we generally have 2 large Biology classes (about 85% of all our senior cycle students) one small chemistry class the largest one was 15 students, most are 8-12. We cant offer physics. However we started offerning Ag Science 4/5years ago and the numbers have gone from 10-15 up to mid 30s so its def a subject on the increase the kids love it (so does the teacher from listening to his comments)

Caireann

Hey just wondering if you saw any courses like the UL one but in dublin?