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Infrastructure & Roads posters: how will you vote?

  • 03-02-2011 11:26pm
    #1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,093 ✭✭✭ Amtmann


    I'm curious as to what the results would be, so I'll venture a private poll.

    I'll declare from the outset: I'm not a member of any political party, but I have consistently voted for Fine Gael in every election since 2002 when I became entitled to vote.

    I have given transfers to Labour on several occasions, and once to the Greens. I have never voted for Fianna Fáil, Sinn Féin, assorted Independents, or any other grouping.

    This time round I intend to vote Fine Gael 1 & 2, and possibly Labour 3.

    Proposed capital investment/infrastructure plans are election issues for me.

    Which of the following will get your first preference vote? 79 votes

    Fine Gael
    0% 0 votes
    Labour
    48% 38 votes
    Fianna Fáil
    20% 16 votes
    Sinn Féin
    8% 7 votes
    Greens
    5% 4 votes
    United Left Alliance
    10% 8 votes
    Independents
    2% 2 votes
    I won't be voting
    5% 4 votes


«1

Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 368 ✭✭ Roryhy


    I couldnt let myself vote Fine Gael, not with Enda at the helm, dont want him to be my Taoiseach. Most likely to vote Labour as much as socialism pains me. Previously voted FF/Green.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,278 ✭✭✭ dubhthach


    Roryhy wrote: »
    I couldnt let myself vote Fine Gael, not with Enda at the helm, dont want him to be my Taoiseach. Most likely to vote Labour as much as socialism pains me. Previously voted FF/Green.

    We don't have a presidential system like the US. why is personality come into it? Surely you should vote for the political party whose political goals/opinions align with those that you hold yourself. Voting for a party that "pains you" just because the leader is different is akin to cutting of your nose to spite your face in my opinion.

    I'd also argue that basing one's vote on a populist candidate for taoiseach and a "cult of personality" has only contributed more to the position we find ourselves in now.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,549 Judgement Day


    Roryhy wrote: »
    I couldnt let myself vote Fine Gael, not with Enda at the helm, dont want him to be my Taoiseach. Most likely to vote Labour as much as socialism pains me. Previously voted FF/Green.

    I'm intrigued that someone could vote FF and also for the Greens - two polar extremes I would have thought. Anyway, as a former Green voter who has been utterly disillusioned by their going to Government with FF, from the outset, I'm effectively disenfranchised as there is no Green candidate in County Wexford. The rest of those on offer are a load of planks such as Brendan Howlin, Paul Kehoe and John Browne. Would you vote for any of them?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,468 BluntGuy


    Roryhy wrote: »
    I couldnt let myself vote Fine Gael, not with Enda at the helm, dont want him to be my Taoiseach. Most likely to vote Labour as much as socialism pains me. Previously voted FF/Green.

    Labour get tacked with the socialist label quite a lot, but quite honestly from the... admittedly limited selection of material available on their website, along with all the indications given by their leading spokespeople, as well as their history in government, "socialist" would be one of the last words I'd use to describe them. There isn't a massive gulf between Fine Gael and themselves.

    I haven't made up my mind on who I shall be casting my vote for. The choice isn't awe-inspiring, to say the least. :(


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,093 ✭✭✭ Amtmann


    dubhthach wrote: »
    I'd also argue that basing one's vote on a populist candidate for taoiseach and a "cult of personality" has only contributed more to the position we find ourselves in now.

    Definitely. I never liked Bertie Ahern for instance, but the two guys I lived with from 2005 to 2010 in Cork loved him and thought he had "charisma".. I could never for the life of me see it.
    I always genuinely felt that Bertie was odious, sly and false. Enda on the other hand I have always liked. I can't quite say why - but he has always struck me as genuine, magnanimous, and honourable, and I think he would make a fine Taoiseach (finer than the previous two by a mile on any day of the week).
    In any case, soundbites and telegenics only started to become important from the 60s onwards. They are not the measure of a person's character; in fact the smoother a politician is on TV, the more wary I'd be (think Tony Blair).

    By the way, just to say it: No attacks on posters please. Gentlemanly discussion is allowed and welcomed, but if people suffer abuse because of their stated voting intentions or past choices, that's not on and action will be taken. Thanks


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,032 DWCommuter


    Unfortunately I'll vote for none of them and let others do the bidding. Why? Until the political culture is changed, nothing will change. Culture change means a complete and absolute change from what this country has got since 1922.

    Apologies in advance.:D


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,010 Tech3


    BluntGuy wrote: »
    There isn't a massive gulf between Fine Gael and themselves.

    I would say there is differences between FG and Labour. FG propose 70% of the adjustments between now and 2015 in public sector cuts while the remaining 30% will be in tax increases. Labour will go 50/50 with public sector cuts and taxes. For me the over bloated public sector needs to be seriously looked as taxes have increased heavily from 2008.
    Tremelo wrote:
    Proposed capital investment/infrastructure plans are election issues for me.

    Probably my biggest concern is creation of jobs which is a real worry. Perhaps some will be gained from capital investment but some more foreign investment is really needed.

    Also the way the justice system in this country will continue to run. The amount of crimes that get unpunished or merely a short sentance in jail needs to change.

    Also the management of the hospitals in the country needs to be reviewed. The A&E departments in regional hospitals are run poorly and should be improvement immediately especially the Limerick regional which is beyond a disgrace now after the Nenagh and Ennis A&E's shut. What about a serious emergency at the most westerly point in Clare? It would take over 2 hours to get there and another 2 hours back.
    I couldnt let myself vote Fine Gael, not with Enda at the helm, dont want him to be my Taoiseach.

    I would vote on partys policies rather than what kind of taoiseach we could have. I'm not a fan of him either and the same goes for the majority of FG voters but I'm willing to vote for a party that might bring us forward into some moderate path of recovery.


  • Registered Users Posts: 16,687 ✭✭✭✭ Zubeneschamali


    If infrastructure was your big issue, I'd say FF deserve some credit. OK, they were late, but they rolled out the motorway network.

    They also drove the country off a cliff and back into the 1980s, which I think is a bit more improtant.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,271 ✭✭✭ Pete_Cavan


    I will be voting FG for the following reasons;
    1. They are being honest and are serious about cutting our grossly over staff yet under performing public service, everyone else knows big cuts will have to be made but wont admit it before the election
    2. NewEra , they want to spend money on infrastructure that will actually create jobs, not stimulus packages which only create short term jobs that rely 100% on state funding to sustain them (state funding that cant last)
    3. FreeCare, the HSE is a blackhole and despite the huge sums of money we throw at it we still extremely long waiting lists. No amount of reform can fix the HSE, it needs to be done away with and start afresh
    4. They favour cuts over taxes, more taxes will only increase the cost of doing business here which will cost us more jobs
    5. Noonan, Bruton, Reilly, Coveney, Varadkar, they have a number of people who know what they are talking about in their own area. Enda may not be the most impressive Taoiseach but he will have the best ministers backing him up


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,630 Plowman


    This post has been deleted.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 368 ✭✭ Roryhy


    I'd like to see a 1 party majority in the Dail, its the best way to make big change and get things done, cant see it happening though.


  • Registered Users Posts: 368 ✭✭ Empire o de Sun


    I can't vote, cos I live outside Ireland. Even if I could I don't think I would cos I see my future now outside Ireland. I can't see us going back for a long time at the earliest.

    Voted since the late 90's whenever I was in Ireland. Never gave FF my no. 1, but I did give them a 2 or 3 a few times. Didn't vote at all for them the last time. but then noone really admits to voting for them.

    Ultimately I would like to see the end to both FF and FG. Civil War parties should have no place in a modern republic.

    If FF and FG had their names in english, would you vote for the "Warriors of Fál" or the "Tribe of the Irish"


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,271 ✭✭✭ Pete_Cavan


    Plowman wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.

    TBH, I think the best we can hope for with regard to transport is that the next government sticks with FF's plans, 2011 and next 4 years, regardless of who gets in. Left wing parties, like Labour and Sinn Fein, generally dont favour high public spending on infrastructure. FG's plan for cutting the deficit favours cuts over taxes so there is a good chance they would shave a bit off the transport budget too. God only knows what hair-brained plan the Greens would come up with if they got into government again, they would be liable to designate all the motorways for cyclists only! FF may want to spend on transport but I wouldnt trust them with our tax money again after the amount that they have wasted over the past 14 years. Transport is not going to be high on the agenda of any new government.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,093 ✭✭✭ Amtmann


    I agree with Pete RE transport policy. No need to change things on the roads front too much, I would just reshuffle scheme priority a bit, bumping the N28 and N24 up the queue. From correspondence I've had with Simon Coveney, I get the impression Fine Gael would deliver the N28 for instance, which makes eminent sense to me. Tom Hayes, who is the party's junior transport spokesman, is a major advocate of the N24 Pallasgreen to Cahir scheme. This is a situation where local politics and national interest happily coincide: Coveney travels the N28 regularly being from Carrigaline, while Hayes is from quite close to Tipperary town.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 108 ✭✭ eia340600


    I will likely vote FG.I'm torn between their policies and FF's.But FG might win out purely because I want Labour to have as little say as possible.

    By the way, the infrastructure forum might not be the place to base your results on.Your likely to get reasoned thinking here, which doesn't exist to the same extent in the outside world..


  • Registered Users Posts: 123 ✭✭ brandodub


    Since my return in the early noughties I voted consistently FF and Labour second Now I feel I only have two choices : spoil or vote for change. I can only see Labour as the alternative. I expect a coalition with FG but TBH Enda does nothing to inspire me:(


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,093 ✭✭✭ Amtmann


    There is a thoughtful piece in today's Sindo on why Enda might be a very good Taoiseach. It encapsulates my view.
    Why the man with no ego will make a good Taoiseach
    Even though he lacks charisma, Kenny is a good bet after Bertie and his ilk, writes Eamon Keane

    Leadership is not magnetic personality, that can just as well be a glib tongue. Leadership is lifting a person's vision to high sights'

    -- Management guru Peter F Drucker

    Enda Kenny lacks charisma and economic acumen; and apparently he doesn't walk on water. If you were to believe the bulk of the media intelligentsia, Kenny should drop out of politics right now. Instead he stands on the brink of being the next Taoiseach. And a good one. Why? Because Enda Kenny has no ego.

    He is not obsessed with his own standing when it comes to doing the right thing.

    I first interviewed Kenny back in 2002 when he ran for, and secured, the FG party leadership. He was very driven but, yes, he lacked the charisma that personified some leaders. Bertie undoubtedly had the 'X Factor'. Cowen was a great debater and would have won any televised leaders' debate. Is Kenny worse for not being like them?

    Think about that when you buy into the consensus line.

    Kenny is less driven by vanity than his rivals past and present. How do we know this? He is willing to include those who personally moved against him and he is willing to promote those who have more flair than him. Very few in Irish political life have done that.

    Former Taoiseach Liam Cosgrave was one. Cosgrave had that same lack of ego and it helped him as a leader. He appointed his main rival, Garret FitzGerald, to his front bench. His coalition government wasn't afraid to have brighter talents than Cosgrave like Peter Barry. As for charisma, Cosgrave was seen as a dour conservative, yet he was an effective leader.

    Kenny similarly has brought on people like Leo Varadkar. Crucially, after the heave against him he said cabinet positions would still be open to the coup rebels. Yes, he did have his own night of the long knives, but overall it was a smart move.

    Look at the recent work that Michael Noonan and Leo Varadkar have done in positioning FG back into the centre right of Irish politics. An ego-driven individual would never have allowed Varadkar back in. Again, I can hear the latte intelligentsia: 'He doesn't know about the economy. . . '

    Kenny's strength is that he doesn't pretend to be an economist -- unlike some other politicians (listen to Gerry Adams). Kenny has others to provide that knowledge. I believe that if there was a crucial decision to be made he would not be vain enough to take it all upon himself.

    Let's address another criticism: Kenny is somehow flaky, not capable of making hard, ruthless decisions. Well, Kenny does bite the bullet when necessary.

    FG's former director of elections Frank Flannery was demoted fairly quickly when he landed Kenny in hot water with a gaffe about coalition with Sinn Fein.

    It appeared that Richard Bruton had the tide behind him when he challenged Kenny for the leadership. Not so. Kenny adroitly played the art of realpolitik to see off the pretenders. Not so flaky, perhaps?

    The danger for the man with no ego is that others will strive to inculcate it in him.

    Politics today is about what the sociologist Erving Goffman termed 'Impression Management'. This is a process whereby we construct an egoic self to control what other people think of us. Just think Alastair Campbell and New Labour. Kenny, like Gilmore, has to be wary of being over spinified.

    Kenny is vulnerable in media situations. The last interview I did with Enda played badly for him.

    He gave me the remarkable admission that he was ''going to be more myself from now on". The statement became the subject of much derision.

    However, it revealed a Kenny who knew he had been packaged into some fine dandy to meet with the approval of the latte intelligentsia. When we met again after that he made a joke about it. Smart man, whatever he felt privately toward me.

    Any decent analysis of Kenny must be evidence-based. So how could the gaffe-prone Mayo TD possibly re-organise this country and get it to share his vision?

    In 2002, Fine Gael, like this country today, was a demoralised broken entity. They had their worst-ever electoral showing, losing 23 seats with a five per cent decline in their national vote. They were up against the most popular politician of the time, Bertie Ahern. Their Dail representation stood at just 31 TDs.

    Kenny, the newcomer, did what all good leaders do in a crisis. He devised a plan, communicated it and implemented it. At its heart was a rebuilding of the grassroots. He toured the country and increased party membership. Those foot soldiers would be vital in forthcoming elections. Labour and Sinn Fein, take note.

    Did it work? In the 2004 European and local elections Fine Gael outperformed Fianna Fail for the first time since 1927. In the 2007 election, FG increased its seats tally by 20. Certainly Bertie won the TV debate, but it was Eoghan Harris's Late Late debate intervention that turned the tide for Fianna Fail.

    In the 2009 local elections, FG gained 88 seats and became the largest party at that level for the first time in its history.

    That achievement is in stark contrast to the latte intelligentsia's subtext that Kenny is the male dumb blond. Look at his strategic positioning of Fine Gael to the centre right. Fine Gael post-Garret FitzGerald suffered from a lack of a definitive policy identity.

    The PDs hoovered up that ground. Kenny has now created a Fine Gael identity through a reform crusade highlighted by key policy documents. Micheal Martin, with his offer to support Fine Gael, is smart enough to know that the centre right is the hinterland they all need to claim.

    Kenny will never win the X Factor. Nor will he win the Nobel Prize for Economics. And, indeed, there may well be more verbal gaffes. But his lack of ego, as evidenced in the ability to recognise his own failings and other people's assets, will make him a good Taoiseach.

    And if you're tempted by charisma and a forceful ego, think carefully. Just remember what Cowen and Bertie left us.

    Blog www.citizenkeane.ie

    Sunday Independent
    http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/why-the-man-with-no-ego-will-make-a-good-taoiseach-2527521.html

    I think he will knuckle down, get to work, listen judiciously to advisors, promote talent, reform the country, dismiss from office those who fail, and communicate in his plain way to the people. Just my view of course.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,091 ✭✭✭ marmurr1916


    BluntGuy wrote: »
    Labour get tacked with the socialist label quite a lot, but quite honestly from the... admittedly limited selection of material available on their website, along with all the indications given by their leading spokespeople, as well as their history in government, "socialist" would be one of the last words I'd use to describe them. There isn't a massive gulf between Fine Gael and themselves.

    Labour are probably the most right-wing of all the 'socialist' parties in western Europe. The notion that they're reds is about as accurate as one of those Sunday Independent/Quantum Research polls...

    Proposed capital investment/infrastructure plans are election issues for me.[/QUOTE]

    Here's a report about Labour's proposal for a national investment bank that would invest in infrastructure:
    The Labour Party today pledged to drive investment in the economy with €2.8 billion from the National Pension Reserve Fund.

    The party's spokeswoman on finance, Joan Burton, said that if elected in the election, it would establish a new strategic investment bank to fund projects to enhance infrastructure and generate employment.

    The party also plans to channel start-up and scale-up finance to the small and medium enterprise sector and be a key lender to innovative firms. Ms Burton said Ireland has grave economic challenges, but far greater economic opportunities.

    “With the right policies, there is a bright future for the Irish economy as a vibrant, open, trading economy that creates jobs and opportunities for our people,” she said.

    The party proposed its State-sponsored bank work in two phases, initially acting as an investment vehicle to channel approximately €2.8 billion from the National Pension Reserve Fund.

    As market conditions improve, it will later develop into a functioning bank, taking deposits and raising long term financing.

    “Irish citizens and the Irish diaspora would be encouraged to make deposits in the bank, and to purchase Citizen Bonds with differing maturities as a way of investing in the recovery of the Irish economy,” Ms Burton said.

    “It would also seek consumer deposits and access wholesale capital markets when conditions allow.” Labour maintains the remaining €2 billion in the pension fund will be allocated as capital.

    Rejecting suggestions a strategic investment bank would further damage the country’s main, Ms Burton claimed it would instead be an essential component of the re-structured banking system.

    “Labour believes that the strategic investment bank should be a successful essential component of Ireland’s re-structured banking system,” she added.

    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2011/0206/breaking8.html

    There's much more information on the Labour website.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,271 ✭✭✭ Pete_Cavan


    Here's a report about Labour's proposal for a national investment bank that would invest in infrastructure:

    So after the billions we have put into the existing banks Lab want to put another €2.8bn into a new one!

    Why do they need a bank to invest in infrastructure anyway?


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,021 Sulmac


    Pete_Cavan wrote: »
    So after the billions we have put into the existing banks Lab want to put another €2.8bn into a new one!

    Why do they need a bank to invest in infrastructure anyway?

    It's actually very similar (if not identical) to the 'National Recovery Bank' Fine Gael proposed around two years ago:
    Instead of borrowing billions more to bail out Anglo Irish Bank, as the Government proposes, we would use the same money to start a new National Recovery Bank to ease credit conditions for families and small businesses.

    I don't know if it's still a policy of their's, though.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,549 Judgement Day


    And it doesn't make a damn bit of difference who wins the farcical and utterly pointless TV debate(s). I'm not an FG fan but there is clearly no alternative to an FG/Labour coalition and the man's charisma or lack of it has no bearing on anything.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,091 ✭✭✭ marmurr1916


    Pete_Cavan wrote: »
    So after the billions we have put into the existing banks Lab want to put another €2.8bn into a new one!

    It'll be a state-owned bank, designed to secure investment for infrastructure.
    Pete_Cavan wrote: »
    Why do they need a bank to invest in infrastructure anyway?

    Because you need money to pay for infrastructure. Not all schemes lend themselves to PPP arrangements. That leaves borrowing or taxation as sources of funding. Ireland can't afford to borrow money at normal commercial rates so it has to make alternative arrangements. A bank which is funded from existing reserves from the National Pension Reserve Fund, and bonds sold to Irish citizens, is a better source of funding than raising taxation. The economy is far too fragile now to be able to sustain significant tax rises of the kind that would be needed to complete the Transport 21 programme.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,271 ✭✭✭ Pete_Cavan


    It'll be a state-owned bank, designed to secure investment for infrastructure.



    Because you need money to pay for infrastructure. Not all schemes lend themselves to PPP arrangements. That leaves borrowing or taxation as sources of funding. Ireland can't afford to borrow money at normal commercial rates so it has to make alternative arrangements. A bank which is funded from existing reserves from the National Pension Reserve Fund, and bonds sold to Irish citizens, is a better source of funding than raising taxation. The economy is far too fragile now to be able to sustain significant tax rises of the kind that would be needed to complete the Transport 21 programme.

    Infrastructure is generally funded from government revenue. Why would the government need to put this money into a state-owned bank? What happens then, they lend the money to themselves to build the infrastructure? If they are using their own money there is no need to put the €2.8bn into a new bank, why not just build the infrastructure with it without doing the bank thing at all?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,010 Tech3


    In repsonding to Mícháel Martin on commenting that the motorways were the most important part of infrastructure over the last 10 years, Eamon Gilmore said the the motorways were not sufficient enough and public transport needed to be invested in.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,278 ✭✭✭ dubhthach


    The Motorways came up during the Debate on TG4 tonight peripherally to issue of Airport PSO's been scrapped. It would seem Labour are in favour of reinstating them.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,091 ✭✭✭ marmurr1916


    Pete_Cavan wrote: »
    Infrastructure is generally funded from government revenue.

    That's not an option in Ireland right now, is it? The government doesn't have enough revenue available to fund all the infrastructure projects that are needed. Ireland either needs to borrow money or get infrastructure built using PPPs. Ireland can't borrow money at affordable interest rates right now, and not all infrastructure projects are suitable for PPPs. In addition, there is uncertainty over the viability of some existing PPP proposals.
    Pete_Cavan wrote: »
    Why would the government need to put this money into a state-owned bank? What happens then, they lend the money to themselves to build the infrastructure? If they are using their own money there is no need to put the €2.8bn into a new bank, why not just build the infrastructure with it without doing the bank thing at all?

    A bank will enable the state to raise more money than simply raiding the National Pensions Reserve Fund by attracting deposits.

    The bank would also loan money to private enterprise. Investing in infrastructure would only be one of its roles:
    A property-led investment culture belongs to the policies and the politics of the past. Labour's economic strategy is centred on growing existing Irish businesses that create high quality and sustainable employment, and nurturing the innovations and business ideas that will prosper in the future.

    To achieve that goal, we need investment finance. Even with NAMA, it is clear that Irish banks will not be in a position to support investment in innovative businesses and in key infrastructure.

    What we need now is a new 'greenfield' bank with a clear mission to support investment in SMEs and innovative firms, and to assist in the funding of infrastructural investment.

    How it will work:

    The Strategic Investment Bank would be set up as an independent commercial operation, using €2billion from the National Pension Reserve Fund as initial capital. The capital ratio of the bank would be set by the Financial Regulator. It would operate on a strict arms-length basis from Government.

    Irish citizens and the Irish diaspora would be encouraged to make deposits in the bank, and to purchase Strategic Investment Bank Citizens' Bonds, which would be a way to invest in the recovery of the Irish economy, and would be of different maturities. The Strategic Investment Bank would attract funding from a number of sources, including consumer deposits and wholesale markets (once market conditions normalise). It could also use some initial funding from the NPRF.

    Irish companies need growth capital. The Strategic Investment Bank would be a key lender to SMEs and innovative firms. The Enterprise Agencies would develop relationships with the Strategic Investment Bank to facilitate introductions of high potential firms. Investment decisions, however, would remain the exclusive preserve of the Strategic Investment Bank. The Strategic Investment Bank would also support investment in large infrastructure projects.


    http://www.labour.ie/policy/listing/126951276120662923.html

    There are plenty of small enterprises that would be viable, would create jobs, if they could get loans.

    The ordinary Irish banks are not lending to small business right now (the credit crunch) and the prospects of them doing so in the near future look increasingly small.

    Hence the need for an alternative.


  • Registered Users Posts: 129 ✭✭ tharlear


    I will not be voting as I no longer live in the country and am not allowed to.
    This is different from not voting "abstaining" .
    Could the poll be altered to add another option of disenfranchised by being out of the country?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,361 mgmt



    The ordinary Irish banks are not lending to small business right now (the credit crunch) and the prospects of them doing so in the near future look increasingly small.

    Hence the need for an alternative.

    I don't see the point in the Irish taxpayer pumping billions into the existing banks and then Labour creating a brand new bank for small businesses. In fact it seems a ludicrous proposal.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,093 ✭✭✭ Amtmann


    It's beyond me how anyone could have preferred Bertie to Enda:



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  • Registered Users Posts: 368 ✭✭ Roryhy


    Tremelo wrote: »
    It's beyond me how anyone could have preferred Bertie to Enda:

    Really??? I found that to be a pretty weak performance. The man has no charisma and doesn't inspire me at all. Bertie, for all his shortcomings, would give you a laugh and cheer you up.


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